Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013

 

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mjosparky  (D 5476)

Nov 5, 2013, 6:12 PM
Post #106 of 210 (4172 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

theonlyski wrote:
Phillbo wrote:
When is a jump pilot required to wear a bail out rig?

Specifically, I believe the only requirements on jump pilots is in the STC that the aircraft is modified for jumping with.

However, especially in turbine aircraft, I've seen plenty of times (in videos and in person) when a pilot has violated the requirements listed in 91.307(c)... I'll save the googling:

Quote:
91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

Now, I know that it says other than a crew member, but again, people going for right seat rides aren't always crew members.

That section is refereeing to aerobatic flight and even then as a crew member the pilot is not required to wear a rig.
I have seen it as a requirement in the 337, STC and I have seen STCs where it was not mentioned.

Here is a section they can bust the pilots on. Its kind of their catch all.

Sparky

91.13 Careless or reckless operation.

(a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.



riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:43 PM
Post #107 of 210 (4010 views)
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Re: [shveddy] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

shveddy wrote:
Other than being round, what scary things have you seen in dz bail-out rigs?

theonlyski wrote:
riggerrob wrote:
What type of emergency parachute was that pilot wearing?
I hope that locals can add more than "a red round canopy."

It would be interesting to know.

I think it raises a good point, seeing some DZ's bail out rigs, I wouldn't want to be the guy trusting it. They're not that expensive and I think if I ever got into flying jumpers, I'd buy and maintain my own bail out rig.

Never know when the fecal matter is going to hit the fan.

.................................................................................

Let`s start a new thread: `What scary pilot rigs have you seen


hangdiver  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 8:02 PM
Post #108 of 210 (3976 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
When I fly these formation loads I have no idea - nor do I care - what my jumpers are doing. I'm laser focused on the lead plane. All the jumpers get a thorough briefing by me and while on board they had better perform as expected if they want me to fly these kinds of loads. This includes a plane captain on each plane to take control of communication with the pilots and other jumpers and exit timing.

Skydivesg this question is for you...what if the lead plane...again this leads to another question...is that where you would put the least experienced pilot? Logic tells me that's what I would do only after thorough training...so I could keep an eye on the lead pilot and observe his maneuvering.

The what if is...could the lead jump pilot have heard someone who is spotting yell "CUT" and of course ...like always chopped the throttle...the plane immediately starts descending while the climbout veers the craft right...out of sight of the trail pilot..the lead pilot adds power...boom...right up under the trail plane.

Just as a what if...definitely not saying this is what happened!!!

Just trying to wrap my head around the collision.

I'm glad everyone survived...I don't really see anyone at fault here...as we all know...sometimes you have a bad day...if you survive...extra points!

congrats to all involved...Beer!Beer!moreBeer!...

Isn't that the first time...you've jumped from a burning plane?



hangdiver


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Nov 5, 2013, 8:49 PM
Post #109 of 210 (3911 views)
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Re: [hangdiver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

hangdiver wrote:
Quote:
When I fly these formation loads I have no idea - nor do I care - what my jumpers are doing. I'm laser focused on the lead plane. All the jumpers get a thorough briefing by me and while on board they had better perform as expected if they want me to fly these kinds of loads. This includes a plane captain on each plane to take control of communication with the pilots and other jumpers and exit timing.

Skydivesg this question is for you...what if the lead plane...again this leads to another question...is that where you would put the least experienced pilot? Logic tells me that's what I would do only after thorough training...so I could keep an eye on the lead pilot and observe his maneuvering.

The what if is...could the lead jump pilot have heard someone who is spotting yell "CUT" and of course ...like always chopped the throttle...the plane immediately starts descending while the climbout veers the craft right...out of sight of the trail pilot..the lead pilot adds power...boom...right up under the trail plane.

hangdiver

I don't want to speculate about what happened on this particular flight as I was not there. I'm confident with all the people on board and the audio from the videos, the NTSB (assuming they are the investigating body) will sort things out.

Yes - I would obviously put the least experienced pilot in the lead plane. That does not mean he/she would not have a lot of jump pilot experience, just not a lot of formation flying experience.

Part of my briefing to a novice formation flight pilot involves the importance of maintaining focus on the task at hand and making certain they understand that the most dangerous part of the flight will be the 40-60 seconds leading up to and including, the climb out and exit. And that it's imperative they do not adjust power during the climb out unless they want me to cut their tail off.

Having said that - it is my responsibility, as the trail pilot, to set up so as to not fly into the other plane regardless of what they do.

Bare in mind flying formation loads is often talked about by jump pilots so our discussions often begin long before the day the flight actually occurs - cloudy - rainy days - fire pit etc. There have been arrogant know-it-all pilots I chose not to do formation loads with - unbeknownst to them.

Flying formation loads requires a great deal of trust from both pilots. For the pilot - I like the briefings to be more of a conversation about the flight and invite them to ask questions and to question why I want them to do things a certain way. I'm a firm believer if someone knows the why behind an idea, they will be more likely to understand and buy into that idea. The importance of not cutting is talked about at length.

Is it possible the lead pilot could loose focus and give a cut out of habit? Of course - anything is possible making your what-if plausible. Flying these loads can be overwhelming especially the first time. Which is why when I'm flying trail, I constantly remind the lead during the final mile of jump run. No cut - No cut - No cut.

I don't want people to consider me the expert on this kind of flying. Obviously there are other pilots on this site. I would love to hear from them. I would prefer not to pick apart this incident but instead provide insight to other pilots and jumpers.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Nov 5, 2013, 10:32 PM)


mikecrow  (D 513)

Nov 5, 2013, 8:55 PM
Post #110 of 210 (3894 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

You may have done more formation flying than me and it's been a few years, but I always found flying trail easier on the left (we're talking Cessnas here, as in this incident). I could see the lead just as easily, and it seemed to me I had more margin for error as on the right I was much closer to the jumpers coming out of the lead. Visibility for my jumpers on "go" wasn't an issue if I was slightly below, which is where you want the trail anyway.

Other than that, great post, I agree with all the rest.


(This post was edited by mikecrow on Nov 5, 2013, 8:59 PM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Nov 5, 2013, 9:19 PM
Post #111 of 210 (3861 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Let`s start a new thread: `What scary pilot rigs have you seen
Why would any financially challenged DZO invest seriously in a piece of equipment that - if ever - is only used once to save the sorry ass of an employee that the DZ at that point in time does not have much further use for - at least for the first few months? Cool

Then again, bailing out only to find that your emergency rig desintegrates on opening? That kind of 'bad hair day' you would not wish upon anyone - even if he just wrecked the plane... Smile


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Nov 5, 2013, 9:48 PM
Post #112 of 210 (3814 views)
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Re: [mikecrow] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

mikecrow wrote:
You may have done more formation flying than me and it's been a few years, but I always found flying trail easier on the left (we're talking Cessnas here, as in this incident). I could see the lead just as easily, and it seemed to me I had more margin for error as on the right I was much closer to the jumpers coming out of the lead. Visibility for my jumpers on "go" wasn't an issue if I was slightly below, which is where you want the trail anyway.

Other than that, great post, I agree with all the rest.

Hey Mikey... how you doin' man? I'm going to be at the Sebastian Invasion and Puerto Rico. Any chance of you going to either?

OK - I can see your point. And I actually like to fly left side trail as well and obviously the jumpers have a straight shot to the formation. Also - if the lead fails to correct the jumper induced yaw then he is pulling away from you to the right.

However- if I'm putting a pilot in the trail for the first time, I believe it's easier for him to see me if I'm in front - on his left and high. I don't think it's that hard to keep the wing tips 12-15 feet apart if you can see each other. In addition, when the door is open - the lead plane captain can look out and see if the trail is in a safe position before he commits to climbing out which is part of his pre-flight briefing.

I guess I've always believed that seeing and distraction control are the most important parts of the equation for the new formation pilot. And it just seems easier if he doesn't have the jumpers in his line of site as a distraction.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


flyhi  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 4:08 AM
Post #113 of 210 (3533 views)
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Re: Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Two questions:

1. It has been a long time (thank God) since I jumped a 182. Is it now common/acceptable for someone to position themselves in front of the strut on climbout? Seems like in a situation just like this one, that could have gotten very ugly, very fast.

b. One of the reports says something about falling at 120 mph with burning airplane parts. Didn't previously accepted behavior include deploying your main as soon as safely possible after an emergency exit in order to avoid such an occurrence?

Congrats to all for making it.


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

Nov 6, 2013, 4:40 AM
Post #114 of 210 (3489 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

This article has a nice video from a few these skydivers of the actual collision and immediate aftermath:

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/national/midwest/10012136184348/skydivers-in-plane-collision-caught-on-camera/


Backintothesky

Nov 6, 2013, 5:27 AM
Post #115 of 210 (3386 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Saw the video on the news the other day, epic video. Looks like something out of an action movie.

Amazing that everyone made it.

hopnpopper0429 wrote:
This article has a nice video from a few these skydivers of the actual collision and immediate aftermath:

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/national/midwest/10012136184348/skydivers-in-plane-collision-caught-on-camera/




ItsThatGuy

Nov 6, 2013, 6:06 AM
Post #117 of 210 (3298 views)
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Re: [flyhi] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad everyone is ok, and im also glad they didnt waste their 185 Smile




DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Nov 6, 2013, 6:34 AM
Post #119 of 210 (3232 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Which way do you think the lead plane will roll when a stall spin starts when the ball is out to the right due to uncoordinated flight due to the increased drag of the skydivers? And when it rolls and the skydivers come off the strut how much time do you think trail will have time to react? If the trail plane was on the left do you think it would it be a non event?


ChrisD  (No License)

Nov 6, 2013, 6:37 AM
Post #120 of 210 (3232 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is kind of already been said, I just wanted to say this a little more simply and clearly with out a lot of the interpretations:



I clearly see in the vid, the pilot watching the exiting skydivers.

C


You tend to go where you look, which is what happened. Jumping, flying, and or driving a vehicle, all the same, happens every day.

"Eternal Vigilance..." 1790, ...


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Nov 6, 2013, 6:45 AM)


akjmpplt  (D 13733)

Nov 6, 2013, 8:12 AM
Post #121 of 210 (3091 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

DBCOOPER wrote:
Which way do you think the lead plane will roll when a stall spin starts when the ball is out to the right due to uncoordinated flight due to the increased drag of the skydivers?

The ball will be out to the left with right yaw. The major influence is the weight to one side. It will roll right, at least it did on the 182 I was outside of when it stalled.


jumpwally  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #122 of 210 (2986 views)
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Re: [OHCHUTE] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Total pilot screw up,,,they should never lose sight of each other......ever....


(This post was edited by jumpwally on Nov 6, 2013, 10:56 AM)


dthames  (B 37674)

Nov 6, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #123 of 210 (2864 views)
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Re: [flyhi] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

flyhi wrote:
Two questions:

1. It has been a long time (thank God) since I jumped a 182. Is it now common/acceptable for someone to position themselves in front of the strut on climbout? Seems like in a situation just like this one, that could have gotten very ugly, very fast.

For someone to lead a tracking dive on their back, I have seen that position often.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Nov 6, 2013, 11:50 AM
Post #124 of 210 (2697 views)
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Re: [dthames] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

dthames wrote:
flyhi wrote:
Two questions:

1. It has been a long time (thank God) since I jumped a 182. Is it now common/acceptable for someone to position themselves in front of the strut on climbout? Seems like in a situation just like this one, that could have gotten very ugly, very fast.

For someone to lead a tracking dive on their back, I have seen that position often.

I've also seen this position, and 'sitting in the V' used for exits off a Cessna... Both of which do have the potential for, and history of, removing limbs when things go wrong.

He clearly had the potential of swinging into the prop arch when things broke. (glad he didn't)

Its been quite a while, but I know I've read at least one case of someone coming out of the 'V' backwards and loosing a hand.
(edited to add... it may have been precipitated by a stall...? old memory... anyone recall this?)


Becareful out there...

JW


(This post was edited by fcajump on Nov 6, 2013, 11:51 AM)


grue  (D License)

Nov 6, 2013, 1:31 PM
Post #125 of 210 (2548 views)
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Re: [flyhi] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

flyhi wrote:

b. One of the reports says something about falling at 120 mph with burning airplane parts. Didn't previously accepted behavior include deploying your main as soon as safely possible after an emergency exit in order to avoid such an occurrence?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm reasonably sure I can out-track debris that is in an unpowered uncontrolled freefall. I'd like to think that in a situation such as this one I'd pick a line and track hard to get clear of everyone and everything.


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