Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next page Last page  View All

CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:13 AM
Post #76 of 210 (5014 views)
Shortcut
Re: [fencebuster] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

fencebuster wrote:
In formation flight, the first rule is that Dash 2 keeps the lead in sight at all times. I am not sure Dash 2 followed this cardinal rule based on what can be seen on the video shot by the girl in the door of the following airplane. It is very difficult to see below and to the right in front on a Cessna from the pilot's seat on the left. To paraphrase Viper in TOPGUN, "you never ever lose sight of your lead."


BINGO, the trailing pilot has one job. Don't hit the lead aircraft.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:30 AM
Post #77 of 210 (4963 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Agreed that all involved were miraculously lucky on this one.

I cannot imagine seeing a burning aircraft in freefall with skydivers.

I'm looking forward to hearing what closed the gap between the two aircraft.


Right.
getting "sandwiched " between the two planes is damn "exciting"...good that they all Got AWAY...
could the C182 pilot have inadvertantly added "left Input" to counter the weight which was now hanging on the step and under the right wing?Unimpressed...That could have led to it's "sliding under" the 185...Unsure

we had a similar occurence well over 3 decades ago... with a 182 base plane and a 206 chase. I was one of 5 who exited the 206 from the cargo door. ( No step ) and we dove out, Right INTO the top of the base plane... Shocked which somehow broke Left, instead of Right, the instant the Base 4 exited.Shocked We started out on level with each other, or with the 206 slightly below,,,, but the 182 fell out some, and the 206 overtook it and "climbed" relative to the 182...Unsure
Luckily all of we divers, were well away from the prop of that base plane. I "hopped " over the fuselage and went between the right wing and the tail But my buddy Rick A. HIT the tail section.. I HEARD it.. BANG!!! he suffered a bad gash on his upper leg, and nearly immediately,,,, PULLED.. I did a partial barrel roll as his PC sleeve stretched out close enough to me to Touch it... Those in the base had NO idea what happened and upon landing were all asking " where the Heck WERE?? you guys?" I said,, "well we had a facefull of cessna,,as soon as we cleared the Door ",,, "and somebody HIT the plane " I then pointed UP ^.. to where a Lone paraCommander was still 5,000 feet off the ground... The pilot of the 182 did a flyby or two and then safely landed the plane. The Horizontal stabilizer was bent Over like it was tin-foil......The 206 landed normally about Five Minutes Before the 182.
The DZOs immediate response???? "Do NOT tell ANYONE about this " !! CrazyUnsureMad
HUH?????? you HAVE to be kiddin' me ...that was the start of my realization that he was a LOUSY DZO......He did plenty of other things,,, later on,, to further reinforce MY feelings about Him....
Me?? i made a point of sharing the concerns, at some of the Other local DZs because around here... we did 2 cessna formation flights ALOT....and I wanted to AVOID,, any similar type of re-occurence. At that time there were SIX cessna DZs within an hour and a half of my home...sometimes we'd get together and do 12 ways,,,, using 3 c182s...
I have a Lot of respect
for jump pilots, in general,,, and those who fly formation loads,,,, in particular...
Glad everyone here,,,, is OK.
jmy


(This post was edited by jimmytavino on Nov 5, 2013, 7:35 AM)


dninness  (D 19617)

Nov 5, 2013, 8:06 AM
Post #78 of 210 (4792 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CSpenceFLY] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Its important enough that Dos Gringos have a whole song about it!


pchapman  (D 1014)

Nov 5, 2013, 8:24 AM
Post #79 of 210 (4730 views)
Shortcut
Re: [doog] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

doog wrote:
Always we have the senior pilot in the trail and we brief the hell out of it first. I don't see why (even a free flyer) would want to exit facing away like that on a formation load.

Agreed on your first sentence. As for that exit, I've seen the infront-of-the-strut exit done from time to time, whether it is for freefly (allowing an easy drop head-into-wind) or for amateur RW formations. I don't know what the best strategy is, but it does get one more person outside the door and away from the normal crowded area. Like in any mass RW exit, if you can't see the other plane, you leave when everyone else leaves anyway.


wayneflorida  (D 30566)

Nov 5, 2013, 9:00 AM
Post #80 of 210 (4596 views)
Shortcut
Re: Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Miracle that everybody not only survived but were not injured, except minor injuries for the jump pilot.

I wonder how much trouble the pilot had getting out of the airplane? As a jump pilot I have wondered a lot how much trouble it would be to get out of a spinning aircraft. Pretty much have just come to the conclusion - "You do or you don't." Of course good gear checks/discipline and flying minimize the risks.

Great spot by the pilot to land the round on the airport.Laugh


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 5, 2013, 9:19 AM
Post #81 of 210 (4490 views)
Shortcut
Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.today.com/...ture-fall-8C11531939

Today show interview with 9 jumpers (no pilots).


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 5, 2013, 9:43 AM
Post #82 of 210 (4373 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Today show interview with 9 jumpers (no pilots).

The next video has an interview with the pilot of the trailing plane


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 5, 2013, 9:54 AM
Post #83 of 210 (4322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi 3,

Quote:
Today show interview

The link says that NBC's Dateline will be doing a program on this. I'm quite sure that just about every jumper in North America will be watching.

But what I want to know is why they didn't do a 10-way with that pilot. He could have gotten his SCR.

Tongue

Amazing footage,

JerryBaumchen


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 5, 2013, 10:13 AM
Post #84 of 210 (4226 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JerryBaumchen] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But what I want to know is why they didn't do a 10-way with that pilot. He could have gotten his SCR.

They did clear him to solo status, though!


airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 5, 2013, 11:14 AM
Post #85 of 210 (4025 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Damned near a night jump.




theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #87 of 210 (3934 views)
Shortcut
Re: [riggerrob] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

riggerrob wrote:
What type of emergency parachute was that pilot wearing?
I hope that locals can add more than "a red round canopy."

It would be interesting to know.

I think it raises a good point, seeing some DZ's bail out rigs, I wouldn't want to be the guy trusting it. They're not that expensive and I think if I ever got into flying jumpers, I'd buy and maintain my own bail out rig.

Never know when the fecal matter is going to hit the fan.


shveddy  (D 30995)

Nov 5, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #88 of 210 (3857 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Other than being round, what scary things have you seen in dz bail-out rigs?

theonlyski wrote:
riggerrob wrote:
What type of emergency parachute was that pilot wearing?
I hope that locals can add more than "a red round canopy."

It would be interesting to know.

I think it raises a good point, seeing some DZ's bail out rigs, I wouldn't want to be the guy trusting it. They're not that expensive and I think if I ever got into flying jumpers, I'd buy and maintain my own bail out rig.

Never know when the fecal matter is going to hit the fan.


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:00 PM
Post #89 of 210 (3837 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shveddy] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

shveddy wrote:
Other than being round, what scary things have you seen in dz bail-out rigs?

I've got no issues with it being round, they don't hurt if you know how to land them.

I'm talking about rigs that are so sun faded that the black harness is now white/grey, PC material hanging out, PC cocked to one side, handles that won't stay in the harness (bad velcro)... A whole list of things.

Not to mention how few pilots have jumped and how many have any clue how to land a canopy, round or square.

It's not just jump pilots though, it's many other pilots flying acro that see the bail out rig as a requirement and sometimes don't take care of them the way they should be.


Phillbo  (B License)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:03 PM
Post #90 of 210 (3820 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

When is a jump pilot required to wear a bail out rig?


shveddy  (D 30995)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:03 PM
Post #91 of 210 (3829 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well in that case I'd get my own bailout rig as well...

Though, I think it's a bit overkill to require jump experience in order to participate in any sort of aviation that requires a bailout rig. I have no doubt that it would be somewhat beneficial in terms of getting the pilot more comfortable with the idea of jumping, but if you end up needing it, shit has hit the fan to a point where all you need to know is "get out and pull."

The finer points of exiting a tumbling and burning aircraft aren't really learned until you are already well on your way to just becoming a skydiver in your own right. One or two practice jumps won't give you the presence of mind or skills to track away from the tumbling wing above you, nor should you be focusing on body position considering the circumstances.

I also just want pilots to remain pilots - too many of them become skydivers and don't want to transport my ass up to 10000 feet any more Wink

theonlyski wrote:
shveddy wrote:
Other than being round, what scary things have you seen in dz bail-out rigs?

I've got no issues with it being round, they don't hurt if you know how to land them.

I'm talking about rigs that are so sun faded that the black harness is now white/grey, PC material hanging out, PC cocked to one side, handles that won't stay in the harness (bad velcro)... A whole list of things.

Not to mention how few pilots have jumped and how many have any clue how to land a canopy, round or square.

It's not just jump pilots though, it's many other pilots flying acro that see the bail out rig as a requirement and sometimes don't take care of them the way they should be.


(This post was edited by shveddy on Nov 5, 2013, 12:11 PM)


chemist  (A License)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:09 PM
Post #92 of 210 (3803 views)
Shortcut
Re: [shveddy] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

you can get one for like $1700 brand new


theonlyski  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:09 PM
Post #93 of 210 (3800 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phillbo] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Phillbo wrote:
When is a jump pilot required to wear a bail out rig?

Specifically, I believe the only requirements on jump pilots is in the STC that the aircraft is modified for jumping with.

However, especially in turbine aircraft, I've seen plenty of times (in videos and in person) when a pilot has violated the requirements listed in 91.307(c)... I'll save the googling:

Quote:
91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

Now, I know that it says other than a crew member, but again, people going for right seat rides aren't always crew members.


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Nov 5, 2013, 12:12 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:10 PM
Post #94 of 210 (3791 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phillbo] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
When is a jump pilot required to wear a bail out rig?

I'm pretty sure that the answer to that question is whenever the STC for door removal on the airplane requires it.


Gasperus

Nov 5, 2013, 12:28 PM
Post #95 of 210 (3704 views)
Shortcut
Re: [labrys] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

 

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=KeWqAWAQIMI#t=48


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Nov 5, 2013, 1:14 PM
Post #96 of 210 (3536 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CSpenceFLY] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

CSpenceFLY wrote:
fencebuster wrote:
In formation flight, the first rule is that Dash 2 keeps the lead in sight at all times. I am not sure Dash 2 followed this cardinal rule based on what can be seen on the video shot by the girl in the door of the following airplane. It is very difficult to see below and to the right in front on a Cessna from the pilot's seat on the left. To paraphrase Viper in TOPGUN, "you never ever lose sight of your lead."


BINGO, the trailing pilot has one job. Don't hit the lead aircraft.


IMO - The easiest and safest way to do this (with small Cessnas) is to set up the formation with the trail plane on the right. I've flown in various positions (on both right and left) but the easiest and safest is from the right side trail - approximately 30 feet back, 15 feet below and 10-12 feet between wing tips (possibly more distance for first timers). If the jumpers can't handle these small distances, then they aren't ready for formation loads. This setup usually allows the trail jumpers the ability to see the lead plane at all times.

This setup also allows the trail pilot to look out the left front window and maintain constant eye contact with the lead plane. It also allows him to easily glance (without big head movements) at the important instruments (Airspeed and turn & bank - aka needle & ball) Remember both planes are at full power.

As mentioned before no cut from the lead airplane the trail does what ever is necessary to maintain position. It's important to note that the lead plane will slow down and yaw to the right more and more as more people get out on the step. The pilot must be on his toes (literally) to keep the plane flying at constant airspeed, straight and coordinated (meaning step on the ball - left rudder) to counter the right yaw.

This is done for two reasons. It allows the lead plane to fly straight and be more predictable for the trail plane. Also because these planes are more likely to stall than normal flight, it is important to keep the airplane coordinated so as not to induce a spin. Airspeed is our friend (so is the ball in the middle).

Even though there is no cut, the trail plane must expect the lead plane to slow down during climb out and to start drifting to the right because of the jumper drag. This is why it is so important that the jumpers from the trail plane have zero hesitation when they see that first foot on the lead plane come out the door to the step. This is also why the trail is on the right so the trail pilot can see and react without the distraction or view being blocked by the jumpers.

When I fly these formation loads I have no idea - nor do I care - what my jumpers are doing. I'm laser focused on the lead plane. All the jumpers get a thorough briefing by me and while on board they had better perform as expected if they want me to fly these kinds of loads. This includes a plane captain on each plane to take control of communication with the pilots and other jumpers and exit timing.

Most radio communication comes from the trail plane giving requests to the lead plane to help out positioning. Jump run is 3-5 miles long with very small corrections given by the lead plane. Every correction is announced in advance by the lead pilot. No corrections in the last mile.

After exit the lead plane must turn 90 degrees to the left with a slight dive. This is quite easily done because of all the counter inputs to the flight controls.

The trail plane must expect the lead to have an abrupt slow down in airspeed during the climb out. It is quite easy to overtake the lead at this time. One of the reasons for this particular formation setup and one of the reasons the trail jumpers must respond with immediate climb out. Remember newer formation pilots should give more distance as a cushion.

The trail must also expect the lead to have an instant climb once it losses the ballast of the jumpers. Another reason for this setup and for the lead to be ready to turn left.

The trail of course must be ready to turn right after exit. Again pretty easily done because he has a tendency to be always giving right input to ovoid getting too close to the lead.

Both pilots must know where the other plane is and always fly in a manner in which they first learned - see and avoid.

Formation flights have been done by hundreds of clubs and small DZ for decades. They can be relatively safe and a ton of fun but they must be taken very seriously by those at the controls.

My heart goes out to these pilots for what they are about to endure. But they must look at the bright side. And we all know what that is -- eleven people being able to hoist a beer and say "No shit there I was".


Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Nov 5, 2013, 1:14 PM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Nov 5, 2013, 1:30 PM
Post #97 of 210 (3467 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Skydivesg] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Great insight


ChrisD  (No License)

Nov 5, 2013, 2:04 PM
Post #98 of 210 (3356 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Gasperus] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post


They pulled the vid...Mad
C




thanks Krissanne, but I wanted to copy it off of U tube...Perhaps it will surface again...Smile


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Nov 5, 2013, 2:25 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Nov 5, 2013, 2:23 PM
Post #99 of 210 (3296 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisD] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:

They pulled the vid...Mad
C

There was nothing in the YouTube video that wasn't already in the Today show footage linked in post #81. Go watch that.


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Nov 5, 2013, 2:38 PM
Post #100 of 210 (3243 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JerryBaumchen] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

JerryBaumchen wrote:
But what I want to know is why they didn't do a 10-way with that pilot. He could have gotten his SCR.
It was a tracking jump. Most of them probably didn't know how to build a 10-way. WinkLaughSly


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Incidents

 


Search for (options)