Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013

 

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airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 4, 2013, 4:03 PM
Post #51 of 210 (6293 views)
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Re: [Trafficdiver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Just watched the vid on NBC. I've been on a few Cessna formation loads and we always had the trail plane on the right of the lead plane. Easy for the lead plane people to see with the door open, and easy for the trail plane pilot to see the lead plane. Vid showed trailing plane on the left and high. My assumption is lead plane slowed way down on climbout and drifted up and back to the trail. Amazing vid.


(This post was edited by airdvr on Nov 4, 2013, 4:04 PM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 4, 2013, 4:15 PM
Post #52 of 210 (6241 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep. The video clearly shows how fortunate we are no one was hurt.


cjustus  (D 8035)

Nov 4, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #53 of 210 (6233 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

I unfortunately was on a formation load where the planes got too close and one of our jumpers impacted the prop of one of the planes (fatality).

Formation loads increase the risk of the sport undoubtedly.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Nov 4, 2013, 4:22 PM
Post #54 of 210 (6207 views)
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Re: [cjustus] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

cjustus wrote:
I unfortunately was on a formation load where the planes got too close and one of our jumpers impacted the prop of one of the planes (fatality).

Formation loads increase the risk of the sport undoubtedly.

I assume you are talking about this one: http://www.ntsb.gov/...TW01LA132&akey=1


cjustus  (D 8035)

Nov 4, 2013, 4:37 PM
Post #55 of 210 (6144 views)
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Re: [arm900fj] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice shot!


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 4, 2013, 5:03 PM
Post #56 of 210 (5995 views)
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Re: [cjustus] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.nbcnews.com/...ightly-news/53461411


irishrigger  (D 297)

Nov 4, 2013, 5:07 PM
Post #57 of 210 (5968 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Vow that is some footage, its a miracle that everyone survived this!
adds a new dimension to "no shit there i was" SlyTongueSly


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 4, 2013, 5:23 PM
Post #58 of 210 (5893 views)
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Re: [Trafficdiver] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe they can replace that aircraft pretty quickly then.


DrDom  (Student)

Nov 4, 2013, 7:04 PM
Post #59 of 210 (5513 views)
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Re: [normiss] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Well that was about the most terrifying thing I've ever seen....

I can not believe nobody seriously injured. This was truly luck/skill/miracle. I'm glad they insist on pilots having a parachute... and that they listen.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 4, 2013, 7:17 PM
Post #60 of 210 (5461 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

What type of emergency parachute was that pilot wearing?
I hope that locals can add more than "a red round canopy."


normiss  (D 28356)

Nov 4, 2013, 7:18 PM
Post #61 of 210 (5456 views)
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Re: [DrDom] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed that all involved were miraculously lucky on this one.

I cannot imagine seeing a burning aircraft in freefall with skydivers.

I'm looking forward to hearing what closed the gap between the two aircraft.


skycatcher68

Nov 4, 2013, 7:27 PM
Post #62 of 210 (5425 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

airdvr wrote:
Just watched the vid on NBC. I've been on a few Cessna formation loads and we always had the trail plane on the right of the lead plane. Easy for the lead plane people to see with the door open, and easy for the trail plane pilot to see the lead plane. Vid showed trailing plane on the left and high. My assumption is lead plane slowed way down on climbout and drifted up and back to the trail. Amazing vid.

My assumption is that the trail plane pilot lost sight of the lead plane and failed to maintain visual separation. Also, the DZO's comment about wake turbulence is total BS. Overall, these planes were flying unnecessarily close together in the first place.


yoink

Nov 4, 2013, 7:46 PM
Post #63 of 210 (5361 views)
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Re: [normiss] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
NBC News helmet cam pics

ok-how much did they pay for the pics?


HOLY FUCKING SHITBALLS! Shocked

I think that may take the award for the scariest video I've seen in over a decade of jumping.

How noone on the upper plane got crushed is beyond me. You guys owe someone SO much beer!


(This post was edited by yoink on Nov 4, 2013, 7:50 PM)


Racenic  (D 27311)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:10 PM
Post #64 of 210 (5299 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

I watched the video 3 times, the Pilot in the trailing plane is looking to his right (and back just a little) watching the divers climb out instead of watching his positioning to the other plane. The first guy to climb out, the one who appears to impact the wing of the lead plane with his body is the luckiest of them all. A few seconds more and he would have hit the Prop of the lead plane..... Scariest Video I have ever seen! So So happy everyone survived !


1001001sos  (C 1234567890)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:22 PM
Post #65 of 210 (5270 views)
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Re: [yoink] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
You guys owe someone SO much beer!

Yes they do. Might as well start with a fully loaded beer truck.


stratostar  (Student)

Nov 4, 2013, 8:39 PM
Post #66 of 210 (5218 views)
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Re: [Racenic] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

And that guy was likely getting sprayed with fuel misting out of the wing and he is very close to the fire. Many people fail to know about our av fuel and how they react in a crash.

For example... 100LL or mogas, 110LL and 120LL will explode and will burst in to flame very easy as seen on the video. Jet-A or for some of U K-1, kerosene fuels for turbines, yes it can burn and explode too, but don't do well in puddles or flowing streams of it at bursting, it will at a point. However if it's in misting format it flashes or bursts.

Kind of like what happened in VA with the king air that ran off the end of the runway with fuel leaking into the prop blast and it was coating the side of the ac where the door was, the fuel was misting when the plane made a source for spark.

Always remember nylon jumpsuit, fuels and flames don't mix well with skin.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 4, 2013, 9:05 PM
Post #67 of 210 (5149 views)
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Re: [inspector] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been expecting an incident like this for some time.

Personally I've seen aircraft get absurdly close during the climbout, exit and even descent. Decades ago Patty Wagstaff would fly within a few feet of departing Otters at the Ranch; a popular game was to try to reach out and touch her wingtip. I've been on C182's where the plan was "climb to altitude, circle and then try to find the other airplane." The pilots would exchange worrisome messages like "Where are you? I'm directly over the Triangle at 7500." "So am I but I don't see you." On larger formations I've been in the copilot's seat when the lead plane went into a cloud, with all the trail planes dutifully following him into zero visibility conditions. At Lost Prairie about 15 years ago I watched a Skyvan stall, roll in front of the Otter with people spilling from the tailgate, then take 6000 feet to recover.

As a sport we don't take formation flying very seriously, and that puts us at risk for accidents like this one. I'm not sure what the answer is, but we can start by not treating them as something fun to do when you have two airplanes if you can talk the pilot into it. Hopefully this incident (and the dramatic video of the result) will help demonstrate the potential risks of poorly planned formation flying.


airtime1  (D 9286)

Nov 4, 2013, 9:20 PM
Post #68 of 210 (5107 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

New inductee into the Caterpillar Club.

Divalent wrote:
stratostar wrote:
The pilot of the trail plane was able to land safely, while the pilot of the destroyed plane had to use an emergency parachute.

Just wow! Only minor injuries to the pilot that had to bail.


Liemberg  (Student)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:05 AM
Post #69 of 210 (4840 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

On climbout from a C182 where skydivers position themselves on the step prior to exit with many different variables in weight, body surface, shifting CofG, time taken for the whole process of the skydivers getting in place, drag created etcetera after 'a lot of first hand observation' there are 2 things that I have seen happening more often than other things, refering to 'deviations from flying straight'

1. The plane tends to drift to the right.
2. The plane tends to lose altitude.

The video seems to confirm this... Mad

Which begs the question: If the 'curve' is so predictable, why start "point A" there where there's a good chance that "point B" can get in harms way?


airdvr  (D 10977)

Nov 5, 2013, 12:40 AM
Post #70 of 210 (4798 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

skycatcher68 wrote:
airdvr wrote:
Just watched the vid on NBC. I've been on a few Cessna formation loads and we always had the trail plane on the right of the lead plane. Easy for the lead plane people to see with the door open, and easy for the trail plane pilot to see the lead plane. Vid showed trailing plane on the left and high. My assumption is lead plane slowed way down on climbout and drifted up and back to the trail. Amazing vid.

My assumption is that the trail plane pilot lost sight of the lead plane and failed to maintain visual separation. Also, the DZO's comment about wake turbulence is total BS. Overall, these planes were flying unnecessarily close together in the first place.

Hard to tell on video but I don't think the lead plane was too close at the start of the climbout. Just like in FS the question begs who took who out? In all of the formation loads we did I never noticed any change in the separation, but I wasn't really looking either.


dninness  (D 19617)

Nov 5, 2013, 3:01 AM
Post #71 of 210 (4582 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember the video from the Fayard Casa flipping over at the Richmond Boogie in the late 1990s (where very soon after, very prominent red markings appeared inside the Casas directing how many people could be where at any given time)

We watched it many, many times that evening on the big screen TVs near the beer trailer. It was *frightening* video.

This just eclipsed it.


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Nov 5, 2013, 5:28 AM
Post #72 of 210 (4239 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

In formation flight, the first rule is that Dash 2 keeps the lead in sight at all times. I am not sure Dash 2 followed this cardinal rule based on what can be seen on the video shot by the girl in the door of the following airplane. It is very difficult to see below and to the right in front on a Cessna from the pilot's seat on the left. To paraphrase Viper in TOPGUN, "you never ever lose sight of your lead."


gunpaq  (D 11214)

Nov 5, 2013, 6:04 AM
Post #73 of 210 (4121 views)
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Re: [billvon] Airplane Collision - Skydive Superior - 2 November 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, seems like that was not a unique experience. Quite often at one particular air show demo Mack C. would push his wing tip towards our C-185 jumpship while on a WDI run.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Nov 5, 2013, 6:57 AM
Post #74 of 210 (3942 views)
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Re: [dorbie] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

dorbie wrote:
rehmwa wrote:
This is a great DZ and I'm grateful my friends (and people on the ground didn't get hurt).

I'm always amazed at how close pilots will try to fly on these 2 small plane loads.

So are you saying these pilots have a history of flying in close proximity? Closer than you need for skydiving according to your follow-on remarks.

Absolutely not. My comment is in general. I've not done a formation load at this DZ so I can't and won't comment specifically. What I do know is this is a top notch DZ with excellent staff and jumpers.

The locals can comment on whether separation, distance, angle, was appropriate or not this instance. From what I could see, the footage indicates a decent following distance before everything started to close fast - you can't figure that out from video that's on board as you can't tell what each plane did individually. The on board reference could be misleading.

You want to ask the pilots that type of question.


doog  (D 580)

Nov 5, 2013, 7:11 AM
Post #75 of 210 (3877 views)
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Re: [Racenic] Skydive Superior [In reply to] Can't Post

Been on the odd Cessna formation load. Always we have the senior pilot in the trail and we brief the hell out of it first. I don't see why (even a free flyer) would want to exit facing away like that on a formation load. He be lucky. But seriously folks, the trail pilot has a hard job and watching the lead plane and paying attention to the closure rate and vertical separation might just maybe be more important than watching the jumpers climb out. Just sayin..


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