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Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries

 

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Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #51 of 76 (3744 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't intend for my posts to be "hey, look at how small my main is" or "I trust my cypres, mind your own business" hubris, sorry if it came off that way.

I didn't take it that way.

I'm curious what those who jump aggressive mains would prefer in this situation. Most of you know this is a risk of jumping fast canopies; because of that risk, would you prefer that other jumpers NOT try to deploy for you?


Mickochet  (D 26656)

Jul 17, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #52 of 76 (3686 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

If it was me given a choice I would say pull my reserve.


andym148  (D 103985)

Jul 17, 2013, 2:42 PM
Post #53 of 76 (3458 views)
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Re: [Mickochet] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey,

I never thought about going for his reserve, That would have to have been Si's choice as he was on that side? Si is not an AFF I, but would absolutely stick it all over me on belly skill's and is a very highly regarded jumper. Would i recommend any body doing what he did as a non AFF I; probably not? Is James happy that he did it, i'd have to say yes. Did we do any thing out of the ordinary, I don't think so? I agree with someones post above that I could not just do nothing, no matter if I had the AFF-I qualification or not.

Human nature takes over eventually and naturally, and maybe it could be hard for some people to under stand. If you were to see a kid crying in the street, some people would just walk on by; but some will stop to help?

Thinking back; dumping his main may have been the wrong thing to do? Going for his reserve, may have been the wrong thing to do? Doing nothing would have been the worst course of action, and the worst thing to do! I think the whole thing was done and dusted in 20 sec's ish? And all the above posters points are valid, but to be honest all i could thing about is get him, get him stable, and get him under canopy in that order.

I like this quote by Edmund Burke, "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".


78RATS  (D 25449)

Jul 17, 2013, 2:46 PM
Post #54 of 76 (3447 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 17, 2013, 4:20 PM
Post #55 of 76 (3365 views)
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Re: [78RATS] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

78RATS wrote:
Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+

This.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jul 17, 2013, 5:39 PM
Post #56 of 76 (3314 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

andym148 wrote:
Hey,

I never thought about going for his reserve, That would have to have been Si's choice as he was on that side? Si is not an AFF I, but would absolutely stick it all over me on belly skill's and is a very highly regarded jumper. Would i recommend any body doing what he did as a non AFF I; probably not? Is James happy that he did it, i'd have to say yes. Did we do any thing out of the ordinary, I don't think so? I agree with someones post above that I could not just do nothing, no matter if I had the AFF-I qualification or not.

Human nature takes over eventually and naturally, and maybe it could be hard for some people to under stand. If you were to see a kid crying in the street, some people would just walk on by; but some will stop to help?

Thinking back; dumping his main may have been the wrong thing to do? Going for his reserve, may have been the wrong thing to do? Doing nothing would have been the worst course of action, and the worst thing to do! I think the whole thing was done and dusted in 20 sec's ish? And all the above posters points are valid, but to be honest all i could thing about is get him, get him stable, and get him under canopy in that order.

I like this quote by Edmund Burke, "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".

You are the best kind of person on this planet, honestly. You did the best you could in the time you had, you stepped up and saved a mate, and then you listened to the praise and pointed out others who deserved it also, and you listened to the criticisms and used those criticisms to help teach others in hindsight.

The world needs more of you.


yoink

Jul 17, 2013, 5:53 PM
Post #57 of 76 (3306 views)
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Re: [Remster] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Remster wrote:
78RATS wrote:
Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+

This.


Seriously? Unimpressed

I haven't seen anyone giving Andy shit for doing the wrong thing. Andy and Si both know they did good.


That doesn't mean we shouldn't question everything - maybe in the future we can do better. As a sport we gain nothing from sitting around and patting each other on the back. Maybe we gain greater insight by asking 'what could we have done differently? What if?'

Asking questions is NOT the same as criticizing someone.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 17, 2013, 6:28 PM
Post #58 of 76 (3282 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

andym148 wrote:
Hey,

I never thought about going for his reserve, That would have to have been Si's choice as he was on that side? Si is not an AFF I, but would absolutely stick it all over me on belly skill's and is a very highly regarded jumper. Would i recommend any body doing what he did as a non AFF I; probably not? Is James happy that he did it, i'd have to say yes. Did we do any thing out of the ordinary, I don't think so? I agree with someones post above that I could not just do nothing, no matter if I had the AFF-I qualification or not.

Human nature takes over eventually and naturally, and maybe it could be hard for some people to under stand. If you were to see a kid crying in the street, some people would just walk on by; but some will stop to help?

Thinking back; dumping his main may have been the wrong thing to do? Going for his reserve, may have been the wrong thing to do? Doing nothing would have been the worst course of action, and the worst thing to do! I think the whole thing was done and dusted in 20 sec's ish? And all the above posters points are valid, but to be honest all i could thing about is get him, get him stable, and get him under canopy in that order.

I like this quote by Edmund Burke, "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".

My original post asking was purely a learning and curiosity point of view. It's the really odd ball situations like this that are worth debating.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jul 18, 2013, 6:02 AM
Post #59 of 76 (3023 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy,

GREAT job... that’s what many of us have envisioned doing for years, and you carried it off like the pro you are. Cool

My take away from what I’ve seen here…
With the little snarping that is normal on here, I think this whole discussion is just what this site is good for... lots of discussions, warning, thoughts, etc... (I haven't seen/taken any of the comments as criticism of your actions…)

My take on the discussion/choices presented boil down to:

Q: Act/Don’t Act?
A: Act, but remember that your actions, (in)experience, altitude, other’s actions and the victim’s possible actions will put you in increased danger. (remember, if the victim starts regaining awareness, they may panic and take quick action without clearing their airspace)
PS: When others and/or more capable jumpers (AFF-I’s) are handling it, back off and give them room to work.

Q: Trust AAD?
A: Depending on all the criteria above, especially the issues of altitude and the would-be rescuer’s experience; up high, NO. As you get closer to ground level… (<2-3k) it has to change to Yes.

Q: Deploy them high or lower (10k vs 4k)?
Thoughts: High gives them more chance to regain consciousness and take command of their canopy, but it increases the possible places/distances where they could land and delay assistance reaching them…
A: NOW. If you’ve got them under control enough to deploy them, you have no guarantee that you will keep control of them. Higher gives everyone more chance to deal with the “what next”.

Q: Waive off?
A: If possible, I think the video shows the value of it… Not everyone is clued in on what’s going on. But don’t lose control either.

Q: Main or Reserve?
Thoughts: If you deploy their Main, maybe its larger/more docile (like mine or a student’s) than their reserve. If you are very experienced (AFF-I), it gives you the option of assisting with a bag-lock (cutaway/reserve) as we’ve seen in some AFF videos. It also gives the victim, upon regaining consciousness the chance to fly what they know and the option to go to reserve if able/required. But maybe it’s an unstable deployment to a high performance canopy with an unconscious victim.
A: #1 – give them SOMETHING.
#2 – given the option - best guess…
- big container go to the main…
- a container that looks like a first grader’s book bag go to the reserve

Remember, they chose their reserves (in theory) to land them in bad situations… here it is…

Again, congrats to Andy and Si for their head’s up actions.

JW


DougH  (D License)

Jul 18, 2013, 8:00 AM
Post #60 of 76 (2949 views)
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Re: [78RATS] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

78RATS wrote:
Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+

No one is blasting anyone, if that is your takeaway of the extra discussion, then you should read again more critically.


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 19, 2013, 11:42 AM
Post #61 of 76 (2624 views)
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Re: Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jul 19, 2013, 3:33 PM
Post #62 of 76 (2531 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.)

Kevin K.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 19, 2013, 3:57 PM
Post #63 of 76 (2514 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 19, 2013, 4:29 PM
Post #64 of 76 (2494 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy9o8 wrote:
kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?

I remember when 'Topdock' brought one in...I thought cool, but I sure hope some numbnut without his skills doesn't try that sometime.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Jul 19, 2013, 8:01 PM
Post #65 of 76 (2432 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have the skills, like you said, then that to me is a very good option that could potentially save a life.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 20, 2013, 12:12 AM
Post #66 of 76 (2379 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
Andy9o8 wrote:
kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?

I remember when 'Topdock' brought one in...I thought cool, but I sure hope some numbnut without his skills doesn't try that sometime.

Cool! I am not a numbnut!

Topdocking takes somes skills and a canopy in brakes with an unconscious or disabled jumper is even more likely to be difficult. It can be done, but you god damn better know what you are doing!

Better off following a disabled/unconscious jumper to landing, keeping yourself safe for landing so you can render aid.

Carry your cell phone.

top


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jul 20, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #67 of 76 (2302 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy9o8 wrote:
kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?

Sure. Just as someone intending to dock on an unconscious person in freefall can end up killing them both if they screw it up. Usually, someone capable of doing it will know how to attempt it safely or abort if unable. Hopefully, someone who is not capable will not attempt it.

"A man's got to know his limitations." - Harry Callahan

Kevin K.


likearock  (D 24640)

Jul 20, 2013, 9:38 AM
Post #68 of 76 (2266 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
I guess my question could have been taken a few different ways, what I was after was how would you go about deploying someone else's canopy, and my thought would be that you would grab the handle and get the hell out of there. It was an attempt to address your concern about getting 'tangled up in someone's lines'. The idea is that you don't pull the handle and sit there, you get a hand on it, and pull it as you drop your other grip, turn away, and get the hell out of there.


I think this is an important risk factor and one that should not be overlooked. Especially in assessing whether to deploy someone else's main or reserve, it's clearly less dangerous to deploy a BOC throw-out for the main than to have to reach in and peel/pull the reserve handle. With a BOC pull, you can maintain separation at all times from the unconscious jumper, with a reserve pull that's a lot harder. I think the consideration for avoiding a possible wrap and double fatality should trump any concerns relating to the different operating characteristics of the two canopies.


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 21, 2013, 1:50 PM
Post #69 of 76 (1994 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.)

Kevin K.

"A waterfall is like a BASE pca, sort off.
If I was to do a waterfall on you, I would grab your pc with my left hand and deploy my parachute normally. Then as Im sniveling, Im pulling your pc out. That way Im under canopy above you. And because we have the same type of canopy and wingloading its gonna be easy for me to topdock, call 911 under canopy, and land you in the peas" James Bond


yoink

Jan 29, 2014, 11:13 PM
Post #70 of 76 (1577 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Just seen this video resurface on San Diego local news as though it's something new.... Crazy


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 30, 2014, 7:13 AM
Post #71 of 76 (1386 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
Just seen this video resurface on San Diego local news as though it's something new.... Crazy

It's been picked up nationally. I saw it on TV news this morning.


SkyCoi  (D 31190)

Jan 30, 2014, 7:51 AM
Post #72 of 76 (1326 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Great - they managed to lump this and several other incidents all together in this one. Not the most positive press ever:

http://abcnews.go.com/...nt/story?id=22290846


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 30, 2014, 10:52 AM
Post #73 of 76 (1068 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

skybytch wrote:
In reply to:
I didn't intend for my posts to be "hey, look at how small my main is" or "I trust my cypres, mind your own business" hubris, sorry if it came off that way.

I didn't take it that way.

I'm curious what those who jump aggressive mains would prefer in this situation. Most of you know this is a risk of jumping fast canopies; because of that risk, would you prefer that other jumpers NOT try to deploy for you?


This hasn't been touched on much.

I have actually been there. I had my head pushed into a flap on an aggressive headdown deployment. I didn't go unconscious but I was dazed and not flying. I was jumping with my wife (AFFI), and two friends (one other AFFI) and the event of me hitting the flap ended the jump. We were all docked at exit. The other two dudes let go and my wife flipped me over and hung on to me till the end of the jump.

I pulled for myself.

If dazed but awake I want my main please. It has it's own problems, but I would prefer to not have a terminal reserve deployment after already having my bell rung once. In the case above, I was seeing stars and such, but was able to do basic function on my own and communicate with the other jumpers. I was fine after a bit and went back to jumping the next morning.

If I am completely out (eyes rolled back or completely unresponsive), I would want my reserve.

If you know what you're doing, rolling someone over who is completely out of it is actually super easy. (I'm an AFFI). If you haven't ever done it I would avoid that situation. If you're going to pull them out and they are on their back, pull their reserve, it's substantially safer. I have seen quite a few videos of spring loaded main or reserve deployments while on the back and they almost always work out, hand deploy, shit gets weird quick.

If presented with this situation myself it would be an evaluation of what they are jumping and how with it they are. I know most of the people I jump with and have enough experience to make a reasonable judgement on what's in the container.


(This post was edited by Fast on Jan 30, 2014, 10:52 AM)


Rover  (D 241)

Jan 30, 2014, 11:35 AM
Post #74 of 76 (1001 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
Just seen this video resurface on San Diego local news as though it's something new.... Crazy

On the news in NZ as well - I must say I thought the poms were extremely brave to be skydiving in tee shirts in the middle of winter! Tongue


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Jan 31, 2014, 12:23 AM
Post #75 of 76 (736 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah - looks like someone found the video and posted it to Reddit, and the sensationalism took over. Crazy


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