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Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries

 

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Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 16, 2013, 3:41 PM
Post #26 of 76 (3503 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero.

FWIW, witnessed an outside deployment to reserve, jumper remained unconscious to landing, no linetwists and no brakes.
Sprained ankle and nothing else (full face helmet).
There was also an unconscious AAD deployment at Elsinore a few years back, skydiver landed unconscious on the golf course, zero injury.


excaza  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #27 of 76 (3453 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
I can't believe that half a dozen people though that a tracking dive was suddenly now a speedstar in the middle of the jump. Had that happened at all during the weekend that might have given the impression that it was normal to improvise like that?
I would rather everyone be in the same place than all over the sky.

That they can't seem to manage staying in one place & out of the way on their bellies is far more concerning.


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 16, 2013, 4:58 PM
Post #28 of 76 (3393 views)
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Re: [DSE] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE wrote:
Quote:
If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero.

FWIW, witnessed an outside deployment to reserve, jumper remained unconscious to landing, no linetwists and no brakes.
Sprained ankle and nothing else (full face helmet).
There was also an unconscious AAD deployment at Elsinore a few years back, skydiver landed unconscious on the golf course, zero injury.

Don't get me wrong, if I were unconcious for whatever reason in freefall and someone could safely get to me without chasing me into the basement, I would certainly welcome a reserve deployment above cypres-firing altitude. That would probably provide for a more stable deployment, more time for line twists to come undone if I had any, and more time for me to come to under the more docile reserve. Smile

My post was simply pointing out that if you catch someone who is unconcious and deploy their very highly loaded cross-braced main, you may as well be catching them and turning their cypres off. Pirate


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 16, 2013, 5:11 PM
Post #29 of 76 (3373 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

It should probably be stated at some point in this thread that even considering going in close to an unconscious jumper to try to deploy their reserve isn't something just anybody should do, right?

It seems in this case that the jumper was flying relatively stable (at least on his belly) and two AFFIs were able to further stablize his freefall before deploying his main. It seemed like a "perfect" situation for the type of deployment seen in the video.

If, however, the jumper were flying on their back, most likely in a medium to fast turn, and for whatever reason only a single jumper who is not an "I" was the only one who could get to them... that jumper probably might do more harm than good trying to jump into that weed eater to start pulling handles.

If I were the unconscious jumper I'd almost rather take my chances with the AAD than have someone wrap themselves in my reserve trying to dump it for me.

So I guess my question is, what are the merits for making the decision to get in close quarters with a jumper in that condition versus letting the AAD do its job?

I imagine fighting to urge to do something would be very hard, but I'm curious if anyone with more experience would argue in favor of doing "nothing" rather than "something" if the conditions were less than ideal such as in this instance and getting in close would do more harm than good?


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 16, 2013, 8:06 PM
Post #30 of 76 (3195 views)
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Re: [DSE] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.


Tetrahedron

Jul 16, 2013, 9:25 PM
Post #31 of 76 (3144 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

jumpsalot-2 wrote:
Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.

Even highly loaded reserves don't come in at 30 mph, with the brakes set.

Exaggerate much?

If that's the trend we need to move toward, the companies will have to design containers that will hold a small main and a large reserve.
I haven't seen any company that offers anything like that.
The best you can do is get the largest Optimum reserve that will fit your container.

Then there's the danger of your highly loaded main spinning around your lightly loaded reserve, in a two out situation.


(This post was edited by Tetrahedron on Jul 16, 2013, 9:36 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:26 PM
Post #32 of 76 (3144 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

jumpsalot-2 wrote:
Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.

both of the 'minor' injuries were lightly loaded.
Although I wasn't present, there was a fatality a few years back at my home DZ where the reserve was highly loaded, unconscious jumper beneath it.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 17, 2013, 12:25 AM
Post #33 of 76 (3021 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Good save.

What DZ was this, I can't place it?

Also be interested to see your Go Pro footage if possible.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2013, 1:05 AM
Post #34 of 76 (2998 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Tetrahedron wrote:
jumpsalot-2 wrote:
Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.

Even highly loaded reserves don't come in at 30 mph, with the brakes set.

Exaggerate much?

With a 20+ mph tailwind they can.

Quote:
If that's the trend we need to move toward, the companies will have to design containers that will hold a small main and a large reserve.
I haven't seen any company that offers anything like that.

Quote:
2. THE WINGS EXT

The Longer, Sleeker Wings! The Wing EXT series is specifically designed for taller jumpers (generally 5'10" and up). If you fly small (under 120 square foot) high performance mains but like the security of a larger reserve (i.e.: 79 Velocity and a PD 126) the EXT might be for you.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 17, 2013, 4:54 AM
Post #35 of 76 (2836 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So I guess my question is, what are the merits for making the decision to get in close quarters with a jumper in that condition versus letting the AAD do its job?

You are sure this jumper has an AAD, and that it's on?

If you are the only other jumper, it might depend on altitude at what you would do. Down low, getting near break off or deployment? You're short on time and lack of skill or training might make the choice for you. Higher up, with time to spare? Maybe give it a shot at getting in there and seeing what's what?

I'm guessing you're not an AFF I, so let me ask you this - let's say you did dock on an unconscious jumper and could get to the reserve (or main) handle, what would your first idea be as to how to pull it, and what to do during and after the pull? This is a not a trick question, I'm looking for what your 'gut response' would be.


hackish  (No License)

Jul 17, 2013, 5:16 AM
Post #36 of 76 (2812 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm guessing you're not an AFF I, so let me ask you this - let's say you did dock on an unconscious jumper and could get to the reserve (or main) handle, what would your first idea be as to how to pull it, and what to do during and after the pull? This is a not a trick question, I'm looking for what your 'gut response' would be.

First gut instinct would be to guide their butt into the opening and let go as soon as they're stood up. Of course I'm not an affi. After pulling the reserve for them, make sure you don't drop their handle! :)

On the main versus reserve subject, mains are generally trimmed and designed for a different purpose than reserves. Imagine a jumper under a katana 170 versus a triathalon 150. Square footage isn't 100% of the answer. I would hope that the jumper chose appropriate equipment, but the reserve probably remains a better chance of saving their ass.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 17, 2013, 5:55 AM
Post #37 of 76 (2755 views)
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Re: [hackish] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

The new world of skydiving.....
Because of the aggressive mains we use, people are suggesting that an unconcious or semi-concious jumper is better off relying on an AAD to save them than under a deployed main.
??????????????


packing_jarrett  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 6:08 AM
Post #38 of 76 (2736 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be a bit apprehensive about pulling someones main parachute especially for someone who regained consciousness. I'd love to be the hero and save someone but I'd hate for that to backfire and the jumper not be ready to deal with a main malfunction. So I would wait to see if they would pull their parachute on their own suggesting that if they could do that then perhaps they could deal with any problems they may encounter. If they had and AAD fire I would think that would suggest that they couldn't even handle a simple task of deploying a pilotchute let alone dealing with malfunctions, landing patterns etc.

AAD's are very important


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 6:34 AM
Post #39 of 76 (2697 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My post was simply pointing out that if you catch someone who is unconcious and deploy their very highly loaded cross-braced main, you may as well be catching them and turning their cypres off.

So if I see you flailing unconscious and I don't know what you jump, should I just go on with my skydive and hope you have an AAD? Or should I attempt to deploy whatever handle I can get to?

This is not a snarky post, btw. My husband jumps a Velo at times. We've discussed what I should do if he's unconscious when we are in freefall (pull whatever handle I can, assume AAD is off).


(This post was edited by skybytch on Jul 17, 2013, 7:35 AM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:02 AM
Post #40 of 76 (2670 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a very good point on the AAD. Unless you happened to see the jumper arming it that day it may be a bad idea to just assume it is on even if you know the jumper has one and usually uses it. So that's a good point to think about, thank you

Say it's higher up and for whatever reason I'm the only one near the person and they are spinning on their back. My gut would tell me to approach cautiously and attempt to slow/stop the spin by trying to grab a foot/leg as that is a larger target and is meatier than the arm so would probably give you more leverage to try to control their body.

From there I'm honestly not sure of it would be better to keep them on their back and try to grip switch down their leg and pull their reserve or if I should flip them onto their belly.

My gut tells me that an unconscious person on their belly would be really hard to control especially with only one hand since you'd have to use the other to deploy. I'm guessing one hand on the bottom of the mlw near their hip would be the best spot to try to control them.

My concern about a belly deployment would be their right side arms and legs catching air and rotating them so that the reserve deploys right into my face.

It seems like keeping them on their back might be more stable but there you'd still have the reserve coming out in a way I'd be worried about getting caught on it and then I'd be wrapped in their lines and I've now added to the problem.

Since I'm not an Aff-I and I have these questions I'm assuming others with my same experience level do too, which is why I thought it might be better to not add complexity to an already bad situation.

But as you rightfully pointed out if you don't know for sure that they
have an AAD and you just watch them burn in without even trying I don't know how you could live with that one Crazy

How would you handle them in that situation? What is the best technique?


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:12 AM
Post #41 of 76 (2651 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
Quote:
So I guess my question is, what are the merits for making the decision to get in close quarters with a jumper in that condition versus letting the AAD do its job?

You are sure this jumper has an AAD, and that it's on?

If you are the only other jumper, it might depend on altitude at what you would do. Down low, getting near break off or deployment? You're short on time and lack of skill or training might make the choice for you. Higher up, with time to spare? Maybe give it a shot at getting in there and seeing what's what?

I'm guessing you're not an AFF I, so let me ask you this - let's say you did dock on an unconscious jumper and could get to the reserve (or main) handle, what would your first idea be as to how to pull it, and what to do during and after the pull? This is a not a trick question, I'm looking for what your 'gut response' would be.

I'll bite.

As a low-time jumper, gut feeling would be:

If docked main side: Docked side body, orient jumper to belly down, stabilize. With left hand grab pilot chute and throw out with palm facing up. Would not hold down harness to sit them up as I don't know technique.

If docked reserve side: Orient jumper to belly down position, stabilize. Grab reserve handle, orient my body parallel to avoid face being over top of his back and give a tug and pull parallel to jumpers body towards face?


labrys  (D 29848)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:19 AM
Post #42 of 76 (2631 views)
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Re: [DcloudZ] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If docked main side: Docked side body, orient jumper to belly down, stabilize.

Getting an unconscious person onto their belly would probably be a lot like putting boots on wet spaghetti and it would take a pretty long time, particularly for someone who hasn't even had any practice doing it with a conscious person. Best to just get the deployment handled. The deployment itself can be dangerous enough if you don't know what you're doing and what the potential dangers are.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #43 of 76 (2619 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I guess my question could have been taken a few different ways, what I was after was how would you go about deploying someone else's canopy, and my thought would be that you would grab the handle and get the hell out of there. It was an attempt to address your concern about getting 'tangled up in someone's lines'. The idea is that you don't pull the handle and sit there, you get a hand on it, and pull it as you drop your other grip, turn away, and get the hell out of there.

It's a shitty place to be, but I would suggest that you try to do what you can with two VERY important things in mind -

1. Altitude. There's no use in both of you going in because you chase them down too low, and either jump hit the ground or have AAD fires in close proximity. Watch the altitude carefully, and leave time for you to track away and open above 2k ft. Track away? Yes, see #2.

2. Watch the jumper very carefully. The jumper may be coming to any point, and their immediate action probably will not be to get stable, wave off, and dump. There's a chance that in their daze, they might just pull a handle the instant it occurs to them that they are waking up in freefall. Watch their hands, and be very aware if they are making a move toward a handle, or out of your sight in any way. As this relates to you tracking before pulling at 2k, if they come to just as you turn away and dump, and they pull a handle, you are now opening in very close proximity, which could create other problems.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 17, 2013, 7:57 AM
Post #44 of 76 (2577 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>Because of the aggressive mains we use, people are suggesting that an unconcious or
>semi-concious jumper is better off relying on an AAD to save them than under a
>deployed main.

No. If you see an unconscious skydiver and are NOT trained on docking and pulling someone out, then I personally am suggesting that you make sure that one fatality does not turn into two by doing something stupid that you've never tried in freefall before.

If you are trained in doing that, then often the reserve will be a better option.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2013, 7:57 AM
Post #45 of 76 (2575 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

> the companies will have to design containers that will hold a small main and a large reserve.

Several companies do that. I have a Mirage that will safely hold a Crossfire 109 and an Optimum 160.


turkeyphant  (B 111016)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #46 of 76 (2565 views)
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Re: [CornishChris] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

CornishChris wrote:
Good save.

What DZ was this, I can't place it?

Pretty sure it's Netheravon.

CornishChris wrote:
Also be interested to see your Go Pro footage if possible.

From the YouTube comments:

Quote:
We did look at his footage but it doesn't show much at all. It is angled downwards for the dive that was planned.


(This post was edited by turkeyphant on Jul 17, 2013, 8:05 AM)


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:18 AM
Post #47 of 76 (2531 views)
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Re: [ufk22, skybytch] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

ufk22 wrote:
The new world of skydiving.....
Because of the aggressive mains we use, people are suggesting that an unconcious or semi-concious jumper is better off relying on an AAD to save them than under a deployed main.
??????????????
skybytch wrote:
champu wrote:
My post was simply pointing out that if you catch someone who is unconcious and deploy their very highly loaded cross-braced main, you may as well be catching them and turning their cypres off.

So if I see you flailing unconscious and I don't know what you jump, should I just go on with my skydive and hope you have an AAD? Or should I attempt to deploy whatever handle I can get to?

I didn't intend for my posts to be "hey, look at how small my main is" or "I trust my cypres, mind your own business" hubris, sorry if it came off that way. Someone asked about main vs. reserve in a situation like this where the main was very heavily loaded / twitchy. Having deployed my particular make and model main while conscious about 1200 times I think the probability of a spinning malfunction if deployed for me while I was unconscious is extremely high.

So in your dichotomy of "do nothing" or "do anything", it's simply not guaranteed that your choice will be improving the situation.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:21 AM
Post #48 of 76 (2528 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Great points, thanks. Having learned on SL and not being an AFFI, I probably have a much lower comfort level with the idea of anyone other than me deploying either of my canopies in freefall. I'm even less comfortable doing it for someone else Smile

It sounds like my concern there about entanglement may be a bit overstated so that's good to know.

WRT tracking, excellent advice.

Would you track and pull at normal altitude if you are high or would you pull high? Would you just go land right away or would you fly at a safe distance from the jumper and try to communicate with them and/or land with them (since its possible they would land way off)?


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jul 17, 2013, 8:21 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:33 AM
Post #49 of 76 (2503 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It sounds like my concern there about entanglement may be a bit overstated so that's good to know.

Provided you grab a handle, and take it with you as you leave, it's probably overstated. If you remained docked and hung on through any part of the deployment, could be a problem. It's like lighting a firecracker, light the fuse and get the hell away. You don't light the fuse and then hang onto it until it blows.

Quote:
Would you track and pull at normal altitude if you are high or would you pull high? Would you just go land right away or would you fly at a safe distance from the jumper and try to communicate with them and/or land with them (since its possible they would land way off)?

Think through the scenario, you dump out the other jumper, and then how long does it take you to get clear and deploy? 5 seconds? You're going to be 1000ft under the other jumper, what do you think you can achieve from there?

Beyond that, where can you do the most good? Are you a first responder? Do you have a cell phone? Can you guarantee that the unconscious jumper will lead you to a safe landing area for yourself? Maybe getting down on the ground and alerting others to the situation is a better idea. The can call 911, and mobilize a group of qualified people to go chase the canopy via car. It just gets more people involved more quickly to get down to the DZ ASAP.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:36 AM
Post #50 of 76 (2497 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Think through the scenario, you dump out the other jumper, and then how long does it take you to get clear and deploy? 5 seconds? You're going to be 1000ft under the other jumper, what do you think you can achieve from there?

Beyond that, where can you do the most good? Are you a first responder? Do you have a cell phone? Can you guarantee that the unconscious jumper will lead you to a safe landing area for yourself? Maybe getting down on the ground and alerting others to the situation is a better idea. The can call 911, and mobilize a group of qualified people to go chase the canopy via car. It just gets more people involved more quickly to get down to the DZ ASAP.

I am not a first responder but do always carry a phone, so landing ASAP and getting the ball rolling on the response is clearly the most helpful thing one could do in that scenario.

Also good points. Thanks for going through that process, it has helped clarify my thinking on this--I appreciate it!


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