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Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries

 


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 15, 2013, 4:55 PM
Post #1 of 76 (10178 views)
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Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ij_gZ3GbE

Jumper gets temporarily knocked out during a tracking dive. Good awareness and skills by other jumpers (both BPA AFF?) who docked on to do what they could.


(This post was edited by cpoxon on Jul 15, 2013, 5:24 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 6:01 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

There were a couple of others on that dive that appeared to almost take someone out after others docked.

I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents. Given that docking isn't even intended, no pressure to get real close, I had not thought that collisions would be so risky. Perhaps it is because they attract large groups of low experience.


grue  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:14 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
There were a couple of others on that dive that appeared to almost take someone out

Saw that as well and was displeased.

This is the second skull-dock on a tracking dive in the last few weeks that has ended in an unconscious jumper. THis one turned out much better than the other.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:16 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents.

There's no need for them to be. Tracking dives are no different than any other jump. The skills of the jumpers need to match the difficulty of the plan.

Noobs should demonstrate their abilities in small groups - 2-ways if needed - before progressing to larger groups. It's about removing variables.

Whether tracking, FS, VFS, CF - whatever, it is imperative that we don't put people in the position to rely on luck or the skill of others. Doing so is the equivalent of group-think complacency. Complacency kills.

For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?


Joellercoaster  (D 105792)

Jul 16, 2013, 12:28 AM
Post #5 of 76 (9310 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

sundevil777 wrote:
There were a couple of others on that dive that appeared to almost take someone out after others docked.

1:13... what was going through that person's mind?


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 16, 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #6 of 76 (9288 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?

No, sorry, I know nothing about it. Just saw it posted on Facebook.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 16, 2013, 2:05 AM
Post #7 of 76 (9190 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

cpoxon wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?

No, sorry, I know nothing about it. Just saw it posted on Facebook.

Bit of a learning question. It looks like the person on the right dumped for the individual. Any preference on deploying their main (as was done here) or their reserve?

I'm guessing that fully unconscious you would chose reserve, but I realise it isn't always that simple.


grue  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 3:07 AM
Post #8 of 76 (9122 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

nigel99 wrote:
cpoxon wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
For the record, can the OP tell us the experience level - specifically the tracking jump experience - of the culprit on this jump?

No, sorry, I know nothing about it. Just saw it posted on Facebook.

Bit of a learning question. It looks like the person on the right dumped for the individual. Any preference on deploying their main (as was done here) or their reserve?

I'm guessing that fully unconscious you would chose reserve, but I realise it isn't always that simple.

I'm just throwing spitballs here to see what'll stick, but possible (speculative) reasons:

1. He might have a bigger main than reserve. Pretty common, and most people who jump together frequently have some knowledge of what their buddies have in their rigs. If I'm unconscious I'll take the reserve because it's 30sqft bigger, but almost everyone I know is jumping a smaller reserve. I don't know what comes into play with crossbraced twitchy pocket rocket vs smaller reserve, hypothetically, but someone who jumps one of those might be able to chime in.

2. Familiarity. Someone who's just taken a solid whack to the head might be better off landing under a canopy they've had plenty of jumps with.

3. Muscle memory: If the main-side assist was an AFF-I, it could just be what he's used to doing.

4. Stability: Easier to deploy someone's main for him than his reserve, ESPECIALLY if he's got soft handles.

5. Possible neck injury: Main is likely to open more softly than a terminal reserve ride. That's really reaching, but possible.


DougH  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 6:38 AM
Post #9 of 76 (8685 views)
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Re: [grue] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

grue wrote:
I don't know what comes into play with crossbraced twitchy pocket rocket vs smaller reserve, hypothetically, but someone who jumps one of those might be able to chime in.

I will take any open canopy over none, especially since my AAD is out my rig and needs to be sent out for service! Bad ass flying on the part of his two friends.

The being said if I could take my cake and eat it too I would want my 110 Smart reserve over my 104 elliptical.

I just think it is much more likely to have a better landing under the reserve if your still unconscious, or out of it enough that the brakes stay stowed and you land with no flare. The reserve is going to be more forgiving of an uneven body position that is slumped over in the harness.

With a small pocket rocket, and a slumped over jumper you run the risk of diving line twist, or even just a harness turn that would build up a huge amount of vertical speed before impact.

But again before some one jumps down my throat, I would take any open canopy, and it may just end up being that the main is the easiest for someone to get to.


(This post was edited by DougH on Jul 16, 2013, 6:43 AM)


FB1609  (C 1409)

Jul 16, 2013, 7:23 AM
Post #10 of 76 (8553 views)
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Re: [DougH] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd take a reserve ride over main if I was unconscious, but yeah, a bit harder to pull


78RATS  (D 25449)

Jul 16, 2013, 7:29 AM
Post #11 of 76 (8543 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice save guys.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #12 of 76 (8234 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

FB1609 wrote:
I'd take a reserve ride over main if I was unconscious, but yeah, a bit harder to pull

Guess that's another plus for a d ring reserve handle over a soft one. At least one I never thought of.


yoink

Jul 16, 2013, 10:11 AM
Post #13 of 76 (8107 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

That video gives me the heebie jeebies. Great flying by the two guys that docked on him! Really heads up and a credit to all their training and experience.

Everyone else on that jump needed to stay the hell away. Did they think the jump was still going or what?? Crazy


The FUCK RIGHT OFF signal that the guy in white gave everyone after almost being taken out while dealing with an emergency was probably the best he could have done.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 10:31 AM
Post #14 of 76 (8035 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

The guy wrote that he was unconscious until they docked on him, but I think that is just the way he remembers it because he was still stunned, and likely flying by autopilot. If truly still knocked out, he would not have been stable.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 16, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #15 of 76 (8001 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering about that, I had always been told that an unconscious person tends to fall butt to earth on their back (never seen it obviously)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 16, 2013, 10:52 AM
Post #16 of 76 (7983 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents.

Yes. In another thread a poster was saying something along the lines of "on sunset tracking dives we'll have 15-20 people with fairly high jump numbers; those are fine." (And apparently "fairly high jump numbers" were numbers over 150; the jumper posting had 162.)

These dives are even more dangerous than the old tradition of "bigway at the end of the day." On a tracking dive there is no focal point; no base you can dock on or, failing that, at least keep in sight for breakoff. Everyone tracks in effectively a random direction at the end of the dive and hopes for clear air. In some cases they even barrel roll just to add some more randomness to their directions. To a newbie a tracking dive sounds lower pressure than a bigway; you don't have to dock, you just have to go in a similar direction as the leader. This tends to attract lower experienced jumpers, and those jumpers often shed the jumpsuit they are used to for a freefly suit or no suit at all - resulting in new and hard to predict fallrates/forward speeds.

All that being said they can certainly be done safely. But they are NOT a good way to get 15-20 low time jumpers in the air at the end of the day.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 11:54 AM
Post #17 of 76 (7804 views)
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Re: [billvon] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>I now fully realize that tracking dives are prime for such incidents.

Yes. In another thread a poster was saying something along the lines of "on sunset tracking dives we'll have 15-20 people with fairly high jump numbers; those are fine." (And apparently "fairly high jump numbers" were numbers over 150; the jumper posting had 162.)

These dives are even more dangerous than the old tradition of "bigway at the end of the day." On a tracking dive there is no focal point; no base you can dock on or, failing that, at least keep in sight for breakoff. Everyone tracks in effectively a random direction at the end of the dive and hopes for clear air. In some cases they even barrel roll just to add some more randomness to their directions. To a newbie a tracking dive sounds lower pressure than a bigway; you don't have to dock, you just have to go in a similar direction as the leader. This tends to attract lower experienced jumpers, and those jumpers often shed the jumpsuit they are used to for a freefly suit or no suit at all - resulting in new and hard to predict fallrates/forward speeds.

All that being said they can certainly be done safely. But they are NOT a good way to get 15-20 low time jumpers in the air at the end of the day.

Lets not forget that, when tracking, your total speed (horizontal + vertical) is much higher than regular freefall, probably approaching freefly speeds. More speed, more people, less experience. Great recipe.


(This post was edited by Remster on Jul 16, 2013, 11:56 AM)


QuickDraw  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #18 of 76 (7621 views)
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Hey Remi, I agree with the Horizontal speed, but I have recorded sub 100mph tracks quite often, but I guess when you have to sink off some altitude it can pick up.

I have seen a few freefliers having trouble putting the brakes on when some 'belly' shows up. Wink


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:17 PM
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Re: [DougH] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

DougH wrote:
grue wrote:
I don't know what comes into play with crossbraced twitchy pocket rocket vs smaller reserve, hypothetically, but someone who jumps one of those might be able to chime in.

With a small pocket rocket, and a slumped over jumper you run the risk of diving line twist, or even just a harness turn that would build up a huge amount of vertical speed before impact...

...but again before some one jumps down my throat, I would take any open canopy, and it may just end up being that the main is the easiest for someone to get to.

My main is loaded at 2.1 and my reserve is loaded at 1.5.

If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero. The only way it would not be a fatality is if I somehow came to and dealt with it, and spinning under my main would only make that less likely.

If left alone, and I didn't come to, I'd likely have a cypress fire low into an unstable reserve deployment and I'd probably impact with line twists and a carving turn in half brakes. Best case I land somewhat into the wind in something like a eucalyptus tree and walk away with a bunch of cuts and scrapes. Worst case I crash downwind into the side of a building and fall on the concrete below and die.

It's a somewhat unique situation, but I'd say deploying my main only makes the situation less survivable. My solution is to avoid skydives that are too big for the skill level involved.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 16, 2013, 1:22 PM
Post #20 of 76 (7569 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>My main is loaded at 2.1 and my reserve is loaded at 1.5.

>If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the
>canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero.

I once had to do this to a woman at Quincy. She was falling back to Earth. I docked on her and realized I did not know what her main vs reserve was. She looked like she was in no shape to cut away if she had a problem* so I opened her reserve, figuring it would be the more reliable of the two canopies. She opened with line twists; I then lost her in the clouds.

Nowadays it's probably a good bet that the reserve is going to be the safer of the two canopies to deploy.

(* - not unconscious but had basically "shut down" and stopped responding to anything.)


andym148  (D 103985)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:24 PM
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Re: [Remster] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi,

The jump was the last jump on Sunday 14 July. It was the last jump of a tracking weekend, up until that point the only thing that could be said about the ability of the fliers was a few people landed 90 degs to everyone else on the jump previous. They had done 10 jumps together that weekend, James has 1000+, and the colliding jumper has around 300 ish??

My recollection of events were after the exit I saw people exiting the plane along jump run as briefed, by look I had my eyes on James as he came down to take up a position over the top of me to help steer the track. Only by chance did I see the other jumper hit him as she fell towards what was the building up of the main group, the other jumper complained of being hit/nudged/pushed by someone else during the debrief. This sent them unstable and in an almost 45 deg dive head first, where their leg collided with his helmet (they have a perfect in print of James cam eye "on" switch and rivets from his Tonfly helmet on their leg).

As soon as the collision happened i saw James grab his face and head and start to spin. At that point for me the dive was over, I knew there would likely be some injury to his head/neck/face/eyes from the impact (he wears gators). As i found out in the debrief no one else saw the impact, so as I went to help, most people thought I had stopped tracking and was now going into a speed star; so they tried docking on me. Someone actually grabbed my foot as I was going over to him. At this stage I thought he was unresponsive, it was only after getting in front of him that I could see that the lights were on but no one was home.

He had his legs up his bum, and his hands on his face, which made getting to him was a tad tricky as he was back sliding and spinning. I took a chance and gave him the legs out signal, but that got no response. Thankfully another jumper (Si G) got there before me, and took up position on the secondary side which left me with the primary side. And yes the bloke in blue that comes through us still thinks were doing a speed star, right up until I politely ask them all to (f**k off) go away.

The next thought in my mind was that I didn't know if anyone was above us, I gave a big wave off across his back and then took his toggle at around 5k ish? I went with a worse case scenario, he was unconscious (unable to pull) and the longer the canopy ride the longer he will have to come around. We would get down, and get ready to follow him under canopy in a vehicle with Si G (who's also a Doctor) to treat on the ground.

Thankfully James canopy (XF2 119) opened ok and he landed his canopy fine.

Conclusions.
1- The group had jumped fine together all weekend, and the dive was within their shown capabilities.
2 - Could it have been prevented? Obviously, yes. I preached an old Navy saying...Safety first and safety second!

I'm sure there is more that can be said, but i hope that spreads some light on what happened?

Blue skies.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #22 of 76 (7521 views)
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QuickDraw wrote:
Hey Remi, I agree with the Horizontal speed, but I have recorded sub 100mph tracks quite often, but I guess when you have to sink off some altitude it can pick up.

I have seen a few freefliers having trouble putting the brakes on when some 'belly' shows up. Wink

In all the tracking jumps I've been in (mind you, I don't do that many), I was more in a delta position than a track...


yoink

Jul 16, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #23 of 76 (7515 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Good save, Andy. Thanks for the report. Smile

A coupe of quick questions - I can't see from Jame's perspective, did you give any sort of breakoff signal before you went after him?

I can't believe that half a dozen people though that a tracking dive was suddenly now a speedstar in the middle of the jump. Had that happened at all during the weekend that might have given the impression that it was normal to improvise like that?


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 1:50 PM
Post #24 of 76 (7476 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the 1st person report.


humanflite  (D 99999)

Jul 16, 2013, 2:47 PM
Post #25 of 76 (7328 views)
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Excellent save guys.
Nice report Andy, good to hear it first hand.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 16, 2013, 3:41 PM
Post #26 of 76 (3464 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero.

FWIW, witnessed an outside deployment to reserve, jumper remained unconscious to landing, no linetwists and no brakes.
Sprained ankle and nothing else (full face helmet).
There was also an unconscious AAD deployment at Elsinore a few years back, skydiver landed unconscious on the golf course, zero injury.


excaza  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #27 of 76 (3414 views)
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yoink wrote:
I can't believe that half a dozen people though that a tracking dive was suddenly now a speedstar in the middle of the jump. Had that happened at all during the weekend that might have given the impression that it was normal to improvise like that?
I would rather everyone be in the same place than all over the sky.

That they can't seem to manage staying in one place & out of the way on their bellies is far more concerning.


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 16, 2013, 4:58 PM
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DSE wrote:
Quote:
If someone deployed my main while I was unconcious I would place the odds of the canopy deploying into anything other than spinning line twists at zero.

FWIW, witnessed an outside deployment to reserve, jumper remained unconscious to landing, no linetwists and no brakes.
Sprained ankle and nothing else (full face helmet).
There was also an unconscious AAD deployment at Elsinore a few years back, skydiver landed unconscious on the golf course, zero injury.

Don't get me wrong, if I were unconcious for whatever reason in freefall and someone could safely get to me without chasing me into the basement, I would certainly welcome a reserve deployment above cypres-firing altitude. That would probably provide for a more stable deployment, more time for line twists to come undone if I had any, and more time for me to come to under the more docile reserve. Smile

My post was simply pointing out that if you catch someone who is unconcious and deploy their very highly loaded cross-braced main, you may as well be catching them and turning their cypres off. Pirate


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 16, 2013, 5:11 PM
Post #29 of 76 (3334 views)
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Re: [champu] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

It should probably be stated at some point in this thread that even considering going in close to an unconscious jumper to try to deploy their reserve isn't something just anybody should do, right?

It seems in this case that the jumper was flying relatively stable (at least on his belly) and two AFFIs were able to further stablize his freefall before deploying his main. It seemed like a "perfect" situation for the type of deployment seen in the video.

If, however, the jumper were flying on their back, most likely in a medium to fast turn, and for whatever reason only a single jumper who is not an "I" was the only one who could get to them... that jumper probably might do more harm than good trying to jump into that weed eater to start pulling handles.

If I were the unconscious jumper I'd almost rather take my chances with the AAD than have someone wrap themselves in my reserve trying to dump it for me.

So I guess my question is, what are the merits for making the decision to get in close quarters with a jumper in that condition versus letting the AAD do its job?

I imagine fighting to urge to do something would be very hard, but I'm curious if anyone with more experience would argue in favor of doing "nothing" rather than "something" if the conditions were less than ideal such as in this instance and getting in close would do more harm than good?


jumpsalot-2  (D 33093)

Jul 16, 2013, 8:06 PM
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Re: [DSE] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.


Tetrahedron

Jul 16, 2013, 9:25 PM
Post #31 of 76 (3105 views)
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jumpsalot-2 wrote:
Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.

Even highly loaded reserves don't come in at 30 mph, with the brakes set.

Exaggerate much?

If that's the trend we need to move toward, the companies will have to design containers that will hold a small main and a large reserve.
I haven't seen any company that offers anything like that.
The best you can do is get the largest Optimum reserve that will fit your container.

Then there's the danger of your highly loaded main spinning around your lightly loaded reserve, in a two out situation.


(This post was edited by Tetrahedron on Jul 16, 2013, 9:36 PM)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:26 PM
Post #32 of 76 (3105 views)
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Re: [jumpsalot-2] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

jumpsalot-2 wrote:
Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.

both of the 'minor' injuries were lightly loaded.
Although I wasn't present, there was a fatality a few years back at my home DZ where the reserve was highly loaded, unconscious jumper beneath it.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 17, 2013, 12:25 AM
Post #33 of 76 (2982 views)
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Re: [andym148] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Good save.

What DZ was this, I can't place it?

Also be interested to see your Go Pro footage if possible.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 17, 2013, 1:05 AM
Post #34 of 76 (2959 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Tetrahedron wrote:
jumpsalot-2 wrote:
Hi DSE, I would like to know a wing loading on the two slight injury landings. If jumpers who jump high wing load reserves, and that is a lot of jumpers, think they will survive an unconscious landing, they are kidding themselves. You are out cold flying your main or reserve. You come in toward the ground. Your feet drag, then your knees, then your face. No two ways about it. Try that at 30 plus MPH. Good Luck.

Even highly loaded reserves don't come in at 30 mph, with the brakes set.

Exaggerate much?

With a 20+ mph tailwind they can.

Quote:
If that's the trend we need to move toward, the companies will have to design containers that will hold a small main and a large reserve.
I haven't seen any company that offers anything like that.

Quote:
2. THE WINGS EXT

The Longer, Sleeker Wings! The Wing EXT series is specifically designed for taller jumpers (generally 5'10" and up). If you fly small (under 120 square foot) high performance mains but like the security of a larger reserve (i.e.: 79 Velocity and a PD 126) the EXT might be for you.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 17, 2013, 4:54 AM
Post #35 of 76 (2797 views)
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Quote:
So I guess my question is, what are the merits for making the decision to get in close quarters with a jumper in that condition versus letting the AAD do its job?

You are sure this jumper has an AAD, and that it's on?

If you are the only other jumper, it might depend on altitude at what you would do. Down low, getting near break off or deployment? You're short on time and lack of skill or training might make the choice for you. Higher up, with time to spare? Maybe give it a shot at getting in there and seeing what's what?

I'm guessing you're not an AFF I, so let me ask you this - let's say you did dock on an unconscious jumper and could get to the reserve (or main) handle, what would your first idea be as to how to pull it, and what to do during and after the pull? This is a not a trick question, I'm looking for what your 'gut response' would be.


hackish  (No License)

Jul 17, 2013, 5:16 AM
Post #36 of 76 (2773 views)
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Quote:
I'm guessing you're not an AFF I, so let me ask you this - let's say you did dock on an unconscious jumper and could get to the reserve (or main) handle, what would your first idea be as to how to pull it, and what to do during and after the pull? This is a not a trick question, I'm looking for what your 'gut response' would be.

First gut instinct would be to guide their butt into the opening and let go as soon as they're stood up. Of course I'm not an affi. After pulling the reserve for them, make sure you don't drop their handle! :)

On the main versus reserve subject, mains are generally trimmed and designed for a different purpose than reserves. Imagine a jumper under a katana 170 versus a triathalon 150. Square footage isn't 100% of the answer. I would hope that the jumper chose appropriate equipment, but the reserve probably remains a better chance of saving their ass.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jul 17, 2013, 5:55 AM
Post #37 of 76 (2716 views)
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The new world of skydiving.....
Because of the aggressive mains we use, people are suggesting that an unconcious or semi-concious jumper is better off relying on an AAD to save them than under a deployed main.
??????????????


packing_jarrett  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 6:08 AM
Post #38 of 76 (2697 views)
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I'd be a bit apprehensive about pulling someones main parachute especially for someone who regained consciousness. I'd love to be the hero and save someone but I'd hate for that to backfire and the jumper not be ready to deal with a main malfunction. So I would wait to see if they would pull their parachute on their own suggesting that if they could do that then perhaps they could deal with any problems they may encounter. If they had and AAD fire I would think that would suggest that they couldn't even handle a simple task of deploying a pilotchute let alone dealing with malfunctions, landing patterns etc.

AAD's are very important


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 6:34 AM
Post #39 of 76 (2658 views)
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In reply to:
My post was simply pointing out that if you catch someone who is unconcious and deploy their very highly loaded cross-braced main, you may as well be catching them and turning their cypres off.

So if I see you flailing unconscious and I don't know what you jump, should I just go on with my skydive and hope you have an AAD? Or should I attempt to deploy whatever handle I can get to?

This is not a snarky post, btw. My husband jumps a Velo at times. We've discussed what I should do if he's unconscious when we are in freefall (pull whatever handle I can, assume AAD is off).


(This post was edited by skybytch on Jul 17, 2013, 7:35 AM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:02 AM
Post #40 of 76 (2631 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a very good point on the AAD. Unless you happened to see the jumper arming it that day it may be a bad idea to just assume it is on even if you know the jumper has one and usually uses it. So that's a good point to think about, thank you

Say it's higher up and for whatever reason I'm the only one near the person and they are spinning on their back. My gut would tell me to approach cautiously and attempt to slow/stop the spin by trying to grab a foot/leg as that is a larger target and is meatier than the arm so would probably give you more leverage to try to control their body.

From there I'm honestly not sure of it would be better to keep them on their back and try to grip switch down their leg and pull their reserve or if I should flip them onto their belly.

My gut tells me that an unconscious person on their belly would be really hard to control especially with only one hand since you'd have to use the other to deploy. I'm guessing one hand on the bottom of the mlw near their hip would be the best spot to try to control them.

My concern about a belly deployment would be their right side arms and legs catching air and rotating them so that the reserve deploys right into my face.

It seems like keeping them on their back might be more stable but there you'd still have the reserve coming out in a way I'd be worried about getting caught on it and then I'd be wrapped in their lines and I've now added to the problem.

Since I'm not an Aff-I and I have these questions I'm assuming others with my same experience level do too, which is why I thought it might be better to not add complexity to an already bad situation.

But as you rightfully pointed out if you don't know for sure that they
have an AAD and you just watch them burn in without even trying I don't know how you could live with that one Crazy

How would you handle them in that situation? What is the best technique?


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:12 AM
Post #41 of 76 (2612 views)
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davelepka wrote:
Quote:
So I guess my question is, what are the merits for making the decision to get in close quarters with a jumper in that condition versus letting the AAD do its job?

You are sure this jumper has an AAD, and that it's on?

If you are the only other jumper, it might depend on altitude at what you would do. Down low, getting near break off or deployment? You're short on time and lack of skill or training might make the choice for you. Higher up, with time to spare? Maybe give it a shot at getting in there and seeing what's what?

I'm guessing you're not an AFF I, so let me ask you this - let's say you did dock on an unconscious jumper and could get to the reserve (or main) handle, what would your first idea be as to how to pull it, and what to do during and after the pull? This is a not a trick question, I'm looking for what your 'gut response' would be.

I'll bite.

As a low-time jumper, gut feeling would be:

If docked main side: Docked side body, orient jumper to belly down, stabilize. With left hand grab pilot chute and throw out with palm facing up. Would not hold down harness to sit them up as I don't know technique.

If docked reserve side: Orient jumper to belly down position, stabilize. Grab reserve handle, orient my body parallel to avoid face being over top of his back and give a tug and pull parallel to jumpers body towards face?


labrys  (D 29848)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:19 AM
Post #42 of 76 (2592 views)
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Quote:
If docked main side: Docked side body, orient jumper to belly down, stabilize.

Getting an unconscious person onto their belly would probably be a lot like putting boots on wet spaghetti and it would take a pretty long time, particularly for someone who hasn't even had any practice doing it with a conscious person. Best to just get the deployment handled. The deployment itself can be dangerous enough if you don't know what you're doing and what the potential dangers are.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 17, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #43 of 76 (2580 views)
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I guess my question could have been taken a few different ways, what I was after was how would you go about deploying someone else's canopy, and my thought would be that you would grab the handle and get the hell out of there. It was an attempt to address your concern about getting 'tangled up in someone's lines'. The idea is that you don't pull the handle and sit there, you get a hand on it, and pull it as you drop your other grip, turn away, and get the hell out of there.

It's a shitty place to be, but I would suggest that you try to do what you can with two VERY important things in mind -

1. Altitude. There's no use in both of you going in because you chase them down too low, and either jump hit the ground or have AAD fires in close proximity. Watch the altitude carefully, and leave time for you to track away and open above 2k ft. Track away? Yes, see #2.

2. Watch the jumper very carefully. The jumper may be coming to any point, and their immediate action probably will not be to get stable, wave off, and dump. There's a chance that in their daze, they might just pull a handle the instant it occurs to them that they are waking up in freefall. Watch their hands, and be very aware if they are making a move toward a handle, or out of your sight in any way. As this relates to you tracking before pulling at 2k, if they come to just as you turn away and dump, and they pull a handle, you are now opening in very close proximity, which could create other problems.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2013, 7:57 AM
Post #44 of 76 (2538 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

>Because of the aggressive mains we use, people are suggesting that an unconcious or
>semi-concious jumper is better off relying on an AAD to save them than under a
>deployed main.

No. If you see an unconscious skydiver and are NOT trained on docking and pulling someone out, then I personally am suggesting that you make sure that one fatality does not turn into two by doing something stupid that you've never tried in freefall before.

If you are trained in doing that, then often the reserve will be a better option.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2013, 7:57 AM
Post #45 of 76 (2536 views)
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> the companies will have to design containers that will hold a small main and a large reserve.

Several companies do that. I have a Mirage that will safely hold a Crossfire 109 and an Optimum 160.


turkeyphant  (B 111016)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #46 of 76 (2526 views)
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Re: [CornishChris] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

CornishChris wrote:
Good save.

What DZ was this, I can't place it?

Pretty sure it's Netheravon.

CornishChris wrote:
Also be interested to see your Go Pro footage if possible.

From the YouTube comments:

Quote:
We did look at his footage but it doesn't show much at all. It is angled downwards for the dive that was planned.


(This post was edited by turkeyphant on Jul 17, 2013, 8:05 AM)


champu  (D 28302)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:18 AM
Post #47 of 76 (2492 views)
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ufk22 wrote:
The new world of skydiving.....
Because of the aggressive mains we use, people are suggesting that an unconcious or semi-concious jumper is better off relying on an AAD to save them than under a deployed main.
??????????????
skybytch wrote:
champu wrote:
My post was simply pointing out that if you catch someone who is unconcious and deploy their very highly loaded cross-braced main, you may as well be catching them and turning their cypres off.

So if I see you flailing unconscious and I don't know what you jump, should I just go on with my skydive and hope you have an AAD? Or should I attempt to deploy whatever handle I can get to?

I didn't intend for my posts to be "hey, look at how small my main is" or "I trust my cypres, mind your own business" hubris, sorry if it came off that way. Someone asked about main vs. reserve in a situation like this where the main was very heavily loaded / twitchy. Having deployed my particular make and model main while conscious about 1200 times I think the probability of a spinning malfunction if deployed for me while I was unconscious is extremely high.

So in your dichotomy of "do nothing" or "do anything", it's simply not guaranteed that your choice will be improving the situation.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:21 AM
Post #48 of 76 (2489 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Great points, thanks. Having learned on SL and not being an AFFI, I probably have a much lower comfort level with the idea of anyone other than me deploying either of my canopies in freefall. I'm even less comfortable doing it for someone else Smile

It sounds like my concern there about entanglement may be a bit overstated so that's good to know.

WRT tracking, excellent advice.

Would you track and pull at normal altitude if you are high or would you pull high? Would you just go land right away or would you fly at a safe distance from the jumper and try to communicate with them and/or land with them (since its possible they would land way off)?


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jul 17, 2013, 8:21 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:33 AM
Post #49 of 76 (2464 views)
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Quote:
It sounds like my concern there about entanglement may be a bit overstated so that's good to know.

Provided you grab a handle, and take it with you as you leave, it's probably overstated. If you remained docked and hung on through any part of the deployment, could be a problem. It's like lighting a firecracker, light the fuse and get the hell away. You don't light the fuse and then hang onto it until it blows.

Quote:
Would you track and pull at normal altitude if you are high or would you pull high? Would you just go land right away or would you fly at a safe distance from the jumper and try to communicate with them and/or land with them (since its possible they would land way off)?

Think through the scenario, you dump out the other jumper, and then how long does it take you to get clear and deploy? 5 seconds? You're going to be 1000ft under the other jumper, what do you think you can achieve from there?

Beyond that, where can you do the most good? Are you a first responder? Do you have a cell phone? Can you guarantee that the unconscious jumper will lead you to a safe landing area for yourself? Maybe getting down on the ground and alerting others to the situation is a better idea. The can call 911, and mobilize a group of qualified people to go chase the canopy via car. It just gets more people involved more quickly to get down to the DZ ASAP.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:36 AM
Post #50 of 76 (2458 views)
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Quote:
Think through the scenario, you dump out the other jumper, and then how long does it take you to get clear and deploy? 5 seconds? You're going to be 1000ft under the other jumper, what do you think you can achieve from there?

Beyond that, where can you do the most good? Are you a first responder? Do you have a cell phone? Can you guarantee that the unconscious jumper will lead you to a safe landing area for yourself? Maybe getting down on the ground and alerting others to the situation is a better idea. The can call 911, and mobilize a group of qualified people to go chase the canopy via car. It just gets more people involved more quickly to get down to the DZ ASAP.

I am not a first responder but do always carry a phone, so landing ASAP and getting the ball rolling on the response is clearly the most helpful thing one could do in that scenario.

Also good points. Thanks for going through that process, it has helped clarify my thinking on this--I appreciate it!


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #51 of 76 (3722 views)
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In reply to:
I didn't intend for my posts to be "hey, look at how small my main is" or "I trust my cypres, mind your own business" hubris, sorry if it came off that way.

I didn't take it that way.

I'm curious what those who jump aggressive mains would prefer in this situation. Most of you know this is a risk of jumping fast canopies; because of that risk, would you prefer that other jumpers NOT try to deploy for you?


Mickochet  (D 26656)

Jul 17, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #52 of 76 (3664 views)
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If it was me given a choice I would say pull my reserve.


andym148  (D 103985)

Jul 17, 2013, 2:42 PM
Post #53 of 76 (3436 views)
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Hey,

I never thought about going for his reserve, That would have to have been Si's choice as he was on that side? Si is not an AFF I, but would absolutely stick it all over me on belly skill's and is a very highly regarded jumper. Would i recommend any body doing what he did as a non AFF I; probably not? Is James happy that he did it, i'd have to say yes. Did we do any thing out of the ordinary, I don't think so? I agree with someones post above that I could not just do nothing, no matter if I had the AFF-I qualification or not.

Human nature takes over eventually and naturally, and maybe it could be hard for some people to under stand. If you were to see a kid crying in the street, some people would just walk on by; but some will stop to help?

Thinking back; dumping his main may have been the wrong thing to do? Going for his reserve, may have been the wrong thing to do? Doing nothing would have been the worst course of action, and the worst thing to do! I think the whole thing was done and dusted in 20 sec's ish? And all the above posters points are valid, but to be honest all i could thing about is get him, get him stable, and get him under canopy in that order.

I like this quote by Edmund Burke, "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".


78RATS  (D 25449)

Jul 17, 2013, 2:46 PM
Post #54 of 76 (3425 views)
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Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 17, 2013, 4:20 PM
Post #55 of 76 (3343 views)
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78RATS wrote:
Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+

This.


labrys  (D 29848)

Jul 17, 2013, 5:39 PM
Post #56 of 76 (3292 views)
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andym148 wrote:
Hey,

I never thought about going for his reserve, That would have to have been Si's choice as he was on that side? Si is not an AFF I, but would absolutely stick it all over me on belly skill's and is a very highly regarded jumper. Would i recommend any body doing what he did as a non AFF I; probably not? Is James happy that he did it, i'd have to say yes. Did we do any thing out of the ordinary, I don't think so? I agree with someones post above that I could not just do nothing, no matter if I had the AFF-I qualification or not.

Human nature takes over eventually and naturally, and maybe it could be hard for some people to under stand. If you were to see a kid crying in the street, some people would just walk on by; but some will stop to help?

Thinking back; dumping his main may have been the wrong thing to do? Going for his reserve, may have been the wrong thing to do? Doing nothing would have been the worst course of action, and the worst thing to do! I think the whole thing was done and dusted in 20 sec's ish? And all the above posters points are valid, but to be honest all i could thing about is get him, get him stable, and get him under canopy in that order.

I like this quote by Edmund Burke, "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".

You are the best kind of person on this planet, honestly. You did the best you could in the time you had, you stepped up and saved a mate, and then you listened to the praise and pointed out others who deserved it also, and you listened to the criticisms and used those criticisms to help teach others in hindsight.

The world needs more of you.


yoink

Jul 17, 2013, 5:53 PM
Post #57 of 76 (3284 views)
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Remster wrote:
78RATS wrote:
Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+

This.


Seriously? Unimpressed

I haven't seen anyone giving Andy shit for doing the wrong thing. Andy and Si both know they did good.


That doesn't mean we shouldn't question everything - maybe in the future we can do better. As a sport we gain nothing from sitting around and patting each other on the back. Maybe we gain greater insight by asking 'what could we have done differently? What if?'

Asking questions is NOT the same as criticizing someone.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 17, 2013, 6:28 PM
Post #58 of 76 (3260 views)
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andym148 wrote:
Hey,

I never thought about going for his reserve, That would have to have been Si's choice as he was on that side? Si is not an AFF I, but would absolutely stick it all over me on belly skill's and is a very highly regarded jumper. Would i recommend any body doing what he did as a non AFF I; probably not? Is James happy that he did it, i'd have to say yes. Did we do any thing out of the ordinary, I don't think so? I agree with someones post above that I could not just do nothing, no matter if I had the AFF-I qualification or not.

Human nature takes over eventually and naturally, and maybe it could be hard for some people to under stand. If you were to see a kid crying in the street, some people would just walk on by; but some will stop to help?

Thinking back; dumping his main may have been the wrong thing to do? Going for his reserve, may have been the wrong thing to do? Doing nothing would have been the worst course of action, and the worst thing to do! I think the whole thing was done and dusted in 20 sec's ish? And all the above posters points are valid, but to be honest all i could thing about is get him, get him stable, and get him under canopy in that order.

I like this quote by Edmund Burke, "No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little".

My original post asking was purely a learning and curiosity point of view. It's the really odd ball situations like this that are worth debating.


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jul 18, 2013, 6:02 AM
Post #59 of 76 (3001 views)
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Andy,

GREAT job... that’s what many of us have envisioned doing for years, and you carried it off like the pro you are. Cool

My take away from what I’ve seen here…
With the little snarping that is normal on here, I think this whole discussion is just what this site is good for... lots of discussions, warning, thoughts, etc... (I haven't seen/taken any of the comments as criticism of your actions…)

My take on the discussion/choices presented boil down to:

Q: Act/Don’t Act?
A: Act, but remember that your actions, (in)experience, altitude, other’s actions and the victim’s possible actions will put you in increased danger. (remember, if the victim starts regaining awareness, they may panic and take quick action without clearing their airspace)
PS: When others and/or more capable jumpers (AFF-I’s) are handling it, back off and give them room to work.

Q: Trust AAD?
A: Depending on all the criteria above, especially the issues of altitude and the would-be rescuer’s experience; up high, NO. As you get closer to ground level… (<2-3k) it has to change to Yes.

Q: Deploy them high or lower (10k vs 4k)?
Thoughts: High gives them more chance to regain consciousness and take command of their canopy, but it increases the possible places/distances where they could land and delay assistance reaching them…
A: NOW. If you’ve got them under control enough to deploy them, you have no guarantee that you will keep control of them. Higher gives everyone more chance to deal with the “what next”.

Q: Waive off?
A: If possible, I think the video shows the value of it… Not everyone is clued in on what’s going on. But don’t lose control either.

Q: Main or Reserve?
Thoughts: If you deploy their Main, maybe its larger/more docile (like mine or a student’s) than their reserve. If you are very experienced (AFF-I), it gives you the option of assisting with a bag-lock (cutaway/reserve) as we’ve seen in some AFF videos. It also gives the victim, upon regaining consciousness the chance to fly what they know and the option to go to reserve if able/required. But maybe it’s an unstable deployment to a high performance canopy with an unconscious victim.
A: #1 – give them SOMETHING.
#2 – given the option - best guess…
- big container go to the main…
- a container that looks like a first grader’s book bag go to the reserve

Remember, they chose their reserves (in theory) to land them in bad situations… here it is…

Again, congrats to Andy and Si for their head’s up actions.

JW


DougH  (D License)

Jul 18, 2013, 8:00 AM
Post #60 of 76 (2927 views)
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78RATS wrote:
Hero saves life: Blasted over methodology!

ReallyCrazy

My grade is A+

No one is blasting anyone, if that is your takeaway of the extra discussion, then you should read again more critically.


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 19, 2013, 11:42 AM
Post #61 of 76 (2602 views)
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Re: Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jul 19, 2013, 3:33 PM
Post #62 of 76 (2509 views)
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yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.)

Kevin K.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jul 19, 2013, 3:57 PM
Post #63 of 76 (2492 views)
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kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 19, 2013, 4:29 PM
Post #64 of 76 (2472 views)
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Andy9o8 wrote:
kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?

I remember when 'Topdock' brought one in...I thought cool, but I sure hope some numbnut without his skills doesn't try that sometime.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Jul 19, 2013, 8:01 PM
Post #65 of 76 (2410 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have the skills, like you said, then that to me is a very good option that could potentially save a life.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 20, 2013, 12:12 AM
Post #66 of 76 (2357 views)
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airtwardo wrote:
Andy9o8 wrote:
kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?

I remember when 'Topdock' brought one in...I thought cool, but I sure hope some numbnut without his skills doesn't try that sometime.

Cool! I am not a numbnut!

Topdocking takes somes skills and a canopy in brakes with an unconscious or disabled jumper is even more likely to be difficult. It can be done, but you god damn better know what you are doing!

Better off following a disabled/unconscious jumper to landing, keeping yourself safe for landing so you can render aid.

Carry your cell phone.

top


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jul 20, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #67 of 76 (2280 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy9o8 wrote:
kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.) Kevin K.

I don't mean to hijack this; and I'm not a CRW dog, but: doesn't that also risk potentially making it even worse for the other jumper - that is, the disabled jumper at least has a functioning canopy over his head - but if in trying to dock on him, you wind up wrapping-up his canopy - now he's basically stuck with a streamer, but physically can't cut away so... ugh... What do you think?

Sure. Just as someone intending to dock on an unconscious person in freefall can end up killing them both if they screw it up. Usually, someone capable of doing it will know how to attempt it safely or abort if unable. Hopefully, someone who is not capable will not attempt it.

"A man's got to know his limitations." - Harry Callahan

Kevin K.


likearock  (D 24640)

Jul 20, 2013, 9:38 AM
Post #68 of 76 (2244 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
I guess my question could have been taken a few different ways, what I was after was how would you go about deploying someone else's canopy, and my thought would be that you would grab the handle and get the hell out of there. It was an attempt to address your concern about getting 'tangled up in someone's lines'. The idea is that you don't pull the handle and sit there, you get a hand on it, and pull it as you drop your other grip, turn away, and get the hell out of there.


I think this is an important risk factor and one that should not be overlooked. Especially in assessing whether to deploy someone else's main or reserve, it's clearly less dangerous to deploy a BOC throw-out for the main than to have to reach in and peel/pull the reserve handle. With a BOC pull, you can maintain separation at all times from the unconscious jumper, with a reserve pull that's a lot harder. I think the consideration for avoiding a possible wrap and double fatality should trump any concerns relating to the different operating characteristics of the two canopies.


yeyo  (D 32048)

Jul 21, 2013, 1:50 PM
Post #69 of 76 (1972 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

kkeenan wrote:
yeyo wrote:
Yes, I know this idea is kinda James Bond'ish but....would performing a "waterfall" be another option?
That way you can CReW the unconscious flyer to the DZ if he's still knocked out under canopy....I mean, if you know you have the skills BlushBlushBlush

I'm not sure what a "waterfall" is, but at CRW events, people have top-docked on the canopy of unconscious or disabled jumpers and flown them in to the peas. (More than a few times.)

Kevin K.

"A waterfall is like a BASE pca, sort off.
If I was to do a waterfall on you, I would grab your pc with my left hand and deploy my parachute normally. Then as Im sniveling, Im pulling your pc out. That way Im under canopy above you. And because we have the same type of canopy and wingloading its gonna be easy for me to topdock, call 911 under canopy, and land you in the peas" James Bond


yoink

Jan 29, 2014, 11:13 PM
Post #70 of 76 (1555 views)
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Re: [yeyo] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Just seen this video resurface on San Diego local news as though it's something new.... Crazy


Andy9o8  (D License)

Jan 30, 2014, 7:13 AM
Post #71 of 76 (1364 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
Just seen this video resurface on San Diego local news as though it's something new.... Crazy

It's been picked up nationally. I saw it on TV news this morning.


SkyCoi  (D 31190)

Jan 30, 2014, 7:51 AM
Post #72 of 76 (1304 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Great - they managed to lump this and several other incidents all together in this one. Not the most positive press ever:

http://abcnews.go.com/...nt/story?id=22290846


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 30, 2014, 10:52 AM
Post #73 of 76 (1046 views)
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Re: [skybytch] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

skybytch wrote:
In reply to:
I didn't intend for my posts to be "hey, look at how small my main is" or "I trust my cypres, mind your own business" hubris, sorry if it came off that way.

I didn't take it that way.

I'm curious what those who jump aggressive mains would prefer in this situation. Most of you know this is a risk of jumping fast canopies; because of that risk, would you prefer that other jumpers NOT try to deploy for you?


This hasn't been touched on much.

I have actually been there. I had my head pushed into a flap on an aggressive headdown deployment. I didn't go unconscious but I was dazed and not flying. I was jumping with my wife (AFFI), and two friends (one other AFFI) and the event of me hitting the flap ended the jump. We were all docked at exit. The other two dudes let go and my wife flipped me over and hung on to me till the end of the jump.

I pulled for myself.

If dazed but awake I want my main please. It has it's own problems, but I would prefer to not have a terminal reserve deployment after already having my bell rung once. In the case above, I was seeing stars and such, but was able to do basic function on my own and communicate with the other jumpers. I was fine after a bit and went back to jumping the next morning.

If I am completely out (eyes rolled back or completely unresponsive), I would want my reserve.

If you know what you're doing, rolling someone over who is completely out of it is actually super easy. (I'm an AFFI). If you haven't ever done it I would avoid that situation. If you're going to pull them out and they are on their back, pull their reserve, it's substantially safer. I have seen quite a few videos of spring loaded main or reserve deployments while on the back and they almost always work out, hand deploy, shit gets weird quick.

If presented with this situation myself it would be an evaluation of what they are jumping and how with it they are. I know most of the people I jump with and have enough experience to make a reasonable judgement on what's in the container.


(This post was edited by Fast on Jan 30, 2014, 10:52 AM)


Rover  (D 241)

Jan 30, 2014, 11:35 AM
Post #74 of 76 (979 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

yoink wrote:
Just seen this video resurface on San Diego local news as though it's something new.... Crazy

On the news in NZ as well - I must say I thought the poms were extremely brave to be skydiving in tee shirts in the middle of winter! Tongue


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

Jan 31, 2014, 12:23 AM
Post #75 of 76 (714 views)
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Re: [yoink] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah - looks like someone found the video and posted it to Reddit, and the sensationalism took over. Crazy


Xtremeopal  (B License)

Jan 31, 2014, 1:42 AM
Post #76 of 76 (818 views)
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Re: [LloydDobbler] Video: knocked unconcious in freefall, minor injuries [In reply to] Can't Post

This happened back in July on the hottest weekend of the year :-)

James has'nt been back to the dz much since. But has decided to sell the story to anybody that will listen for a quick buck.



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