Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
What would you do?

 


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 6:33 AM
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What would you do? Can't Post

I didn't want to create a poll and pigeon hole answers.

Scenario: Organizer says on a final dirt dive (please make sure you barrel roll before you deploy to clear your airspace) I know this has been discussed and opinions vary but what I am asking is what you would do when they say this? Personally I do not see it as necessary at all and I am more than capable of executing it without altering my trajectory in a track. I clear my airspace by looking right, left, & through my legs while in my track.

My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there? Would you just do what you do and ignore it? Would you talk to the organizer about it after the jump?


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:01 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>>>My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there?

Yes.


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jul 15, 2013, 7:01 AM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:03 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Asuming this is a belly dive, I'd Scratch! Unsure


Avikus  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:34 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a formation load with 2 plane (9 way out of 2 Cessna! HARDCORE!!! ;) ) and during my tracking, when I reached 3500 I waved twice in big movement... then wait 2-3 sec. as I always do in every jump even if it's a 2 way.

When I landed, a fellow jumper told me that she was right on top of me (since the fomartion was a bust) and that she clearly saw my wave.

Now there is two thing I took from that when you think about barrel roll.
1) If you do a barrel roll, you will think about it and only have 0.5 to 1 second to look over you... is that really enough time? Maybe miss what is under you.
2) If you do a big clear wave and wait 2 second.. the person over you will have a clear view and time to track elsewhere or pull him/herself.

My 2 cents


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:35 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

skyjumpenfool wrote:
Asuming this is a belly dive, I'd Scratch! Unsure

Freefly head-up actually.... another thing to add. I was just back tracking so why do I need to barrel roll and go on my back again. I just got to my belly.....


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:46 AM
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Re: [Avikus] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Avikus wrote:
I had a formation load with 2 plane (9 way out of 2 Cessna! HARDCORE!!! ;) ) and during my tracking, when I reached 3500 I waved twice in big movement... then wait 2-3 sec. as I always do in every jump even if it's a 2 way.

When I landed, a fellow jumper told me that she was right on top of me (since the fomartion was a bust) and that she clearly saw my wave.

Now there is two thing I took from that when you think about barrel roll.
1) If you do a barrel roll, you will think about it and only have 0.5 to 1 second to look over you... is that really enough time? Maybe miss what is under you.
2) If you do a big clear wave and wait 2 second.. the person over you will have a clear view and time to track elsewhere or pull him/herself.

My 2 cents

Thanks Avikus. Good thoughts but more concerned with someone like you actually (not you specifically Tongue). Lower jump numbers, their comfort level, their skill level. I do not know what you are capable of in the air but I know many jumpers at your jump numbers that are not comfortable with the barrel roll or lack the skill to even do it without possibly causing a bigger problem.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:47 AM
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Re: [BIGUN] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
>>>>My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there?

Yes.

I am curious how many people will answer like this. I didn't speak up right then and there and have been thinking about it since.


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 15, 2013, 8:27 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Merit of doing the barrel roll aside..

Any jumper that's participating in a head-up formation should be able to properly execute a barrel roll, am I wrong?

As to whether or not it is appropriate, I don't feel it's necessary and should be at the discretion of each individual jumper.

When tracking away from a formation, you are responsible for what is below you and to each of your sides. Anyone who is above you is clearly not in the right place and should be there responsibility to GTFO.


Avikus  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 8:36 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well in this case it was pure belly jump :P

I can do a good barrel roll, but like time I've check, I don't do it slow enough to realize what is around me ... all I see is earth, sky, earth! :P


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:43 AM
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Re: [Avikus] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Avikus wrote:
Well in this case it was pure belly jump :P

I can do a good barrel roll, but like time I've check, I don't do it slow enough to realize what is around me ... all I see is earth, sky, earth! :P

It would just be a distraction on a belly jump, especially a 9-way. As soon as you turn to track you should be able to see everyone and their direction Smile I don't see any added value in doing a barrel roll


jzzsxm  (A License)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:46 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.


dthames  (B 37674)

Jul 15, 2013, 10:22 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems like this topic has come up on DZ.com 2 or 3 times in the 21 months I have been jumping.

As a low time jumper, I would not want to spend my time looking up, when the real threat to me screwing up would be missing someone below me. I can easily avoid what is below me if I see it. I can't see it unless I am looking at it.

On a belly jump I track really hard, then flare real big and wave clearly. Anyone that is above me and does not see that, is most likely looking somewhere else, which is only encouraged by the barrel roll.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 12:35 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

jzzsxm wrote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Just a question.... with 152 jumps, if that is up to date.... do you not consider that "low jump numbers"?


yoink

Jul 15, 2013, 1:05 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rstanley0312 wrote:

Scenario: Organizer says on a final dirt dive (please make sure you barrel roll before you deploy to clear your airspace)

Are there really organizers who say this? Crazy


I suppose some people still teach the 45 degree rule of exit separation and toggle whipping as a swoop technique, so I shouldn't be surprised...


jzzsxm  (A License)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:26 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Quote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Just a question.... with 152 jumps, if that is up to date.... do you not consider that "low jump numbers"?

That jump number's up to date. When it comes to doing a barrel roll, no, I don't consider it a low jump number. When it comes to the grand scheme of life, sure, it's a low jump number. I'm a pretty humble jumper but I'd get a little offended if somebody looked at me and said "do you feel comfortable doing a barrel roll at the end of the jump?" Um, yeah, I've been able to do a barrel roll since AFF.

Anybody with 50+ jumps should be competent enough to be looking around (left, right, and down) while tracking and capable of a barrel roll at the end. If that's truly your concern, that lower jump number people would have a hard time with it, then I don't think it's much of a concern.

If the concern lies elsewhere, like messing with peoples' trackoff routines or it being unnecessary etc, then that's another story.


(This post was edited by jzzsxm on Jul 15, 2013, 1:27 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 15, 2013, 1:28 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the
>end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any
>"lower jump number" jumpers . . . What would I have done in that situation? I'd have
>stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll.

So . . . 15-20 way sunset tracking dives. "Higher jump number" jumpers where "higher jump numbers" is above 100 jumps. A barrel roll during breakoff. For safety of course.

That's almost the definition of "a good jump to avoid." Add some borrowed gear, lots of T-shirts and shorts, and a healthy sprinkling of Go-Pros and you've got next month's incident report covered.


(This post was edited by billvon on Jul 15, 2013, 1:35 PM)


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:32 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

jzzsxm wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Just a question.... with 152 jumps, if that is up to date.... do you not consider that "low jump numbers"?

That jump number's up to date. When it comes to doing a barrel roll, no, I don't consider it a low jump number. When it comes to the grand scheme of life, sure, it's a low jump number. I'm a pretty humble jumper but I'd get a little offended if somebody looked at me and said "do you feel comfortable doing a barrel roll at the end of the jump?" Um, yeah, I've been able to do a barrel roll since AFF.

Anybody with 50+ jumps should be competent enough to be looking around (left, right, and down) while tracking and capable of a barrel roll at the end. If that's truly your concern, that lower jump number people would have a hard time with it, then I don't think it's much of a concern.

If the concern lies elsewhere, like messing with peoples' trackoff routines or it being unnecessary etc, then that's another story.

I was just curious. No offense intended at all. A barrel roll like in AFF is one thing. A barrel roll in the middle or end of a track without changing trajectory is a whole different matter. Yes it is a concern because I have seen jumpers with 300 jumps that track in a zig zag pattern. I could say there are some high jump number people that would not be comfortable with it honestly.


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:40 PM
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Re: [billvon] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the
>end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any
>"lower jump number" jumpers . . . What would I have done in that situation? I'd have
>stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll.

So . . . 15-20 way sunset tracking dives. "Higher jump number" jumpers where "higher jump numbers" is above 160 jumps. A barrel roll during breakoff. For safety of course.

That's almost the definition of "a good jump to avoid." Add some borrowed gear, lots of T-shirts and shorts, and a healthy sprinkling of Go-Pros and you've got next month's incident report covered.

I said the exact thing after seeing the AAD fire at the American Boogie this year. It's the type of jump that I might have hopped on when I was in that 100-200 jump range, that I'd stay far, far away from now. Unsure I feel like we underestimate the potential for tracking dives to become shit shows.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:43 PM
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Re: [billvon] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Bill: wanna do a downplane after we open?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 15, 2013, 2:32 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Anybody with 50+ jumps should be competent enough to be looking around (left, right, and down) while tracking and capable of a barrel roll at the end.

Two questions - how good do you expect to be able to scan the sky above you during the course of a roll?

Next, what would you do if you did indeed see someone up there, but you were at the end of your track and at your pull altitude?

Seems to me the quality of your scan is going to be very low, and even if you did spot someone, you've tracked yourself in to a corner where all you can do is suck it down further while you (or the other guy) clears your airspace.

If you really feel the need, and truly have the skills, the MUCH better plan is to transition to a back track about halfway through your track. Take a look around, and take advantage of the time remaining in your track to deal with anything you might see above you, so you can arrive at the end of your track with clear airspace and ready to pull on time.


dudeman17  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 2:58 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

The operative issue here is clearing your airspace before you pull, especially the airspace above you in the direction of your deployment. If you're backtracking and can see above you before you roll over and dump, you've got that covered, but you may not be aware of what's going on below you. If you can't barrel roll cleanly, or if your roll happens too fast to get a good view, then that's not going to work. If you just wave off and wait, figuring it's the person above you's responsibility to react, then you're abdicating your responsibility. The reaper doesn't care who's fault it is, if two people collide during deployment, you're likely both going to die. So track off and check the airspace around and below you. You can look over your shoulder to see above you as you're waving off. If someone is there, by all means track out from under them before you dump. If your standard pull altitude doesn't allow for that, then it's time to rethink that. Safety's a skill, survival an art. It's your job to not let anyone kill you, even if they're trying to, and in turn not to kill anyone else. Get killed ONCE, you can't take it back.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 15, 2013, 4:10 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ask him/her why it's necessary to barrel roll to clear the air above. Unless a person has a problem rotating their neck, it is quite easy to see directly above by turning the head to each side and using the eyes to complete the task.

A barrel roll is absolutely NOT needed to clear your air. Besides that, low man has the right of way so unless you deploy without a wave-off, it is the high person's job to clear you. No one should be tracking directly above you anyway.

We've been clearing our air by turning our heads and using our eyes for decades. It hasn't stopped working just because some feel the need to fix what ain't broke.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on Jul 15, 2013, 4:32 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jul 15, 2013, 4:21 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
We've been clearing our air by turning our heads and using our eyes for decades. It hasn't stopped working just because some feel the need to broke what ain't fixed.

And if you're worried about the high guy, I would argue that the solution is not barrel rolls, but instead to think long and hard about who you're jumping with and why you don't trust them to not be on top of you at deployment. Unimpressed


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:16 PM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the guy above you is so worried about who "maybe" above him, nobody is really checking who is below. Low man has the right of way.

I would have asked the organizer why it's nesasary to do a barrel roll. Maybe instead of saying just do one, go over common problems that can/do occur on brake off for this type of jump and priorities if you find that you are over the top of someone would be more useful than "just do a barrel roll".

If there are inexperienced on the jump, I see that as way more helpful as they can take that info back and pass it on.


Trafficdiver  (C 39999)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:46 PM
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I had an organizer ask me to do that on a belly jump (he was normally a freefly organizer). I told him I was not comfortable doing that and would sit it out if that was not cool. He rethought it and said only do if you're comfortable, if not track like your life depended on, which is what I did.

It's not that I can't do a barrel roll, bit if its a shit show at break off, and I need to go a little lower and longer to clear the zoo, I'd don't want to worry about a barrel roll, that I don't normally practice, to take up any more altitude than neccessary.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:50 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

jzzsxm wrote:
Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people.

The group size is irrelevant. Barrel rolls are not necessary to clear the air above regardless of how many people are in the air. Besides, a jumper's responsibility is to avoid others BELOW.

And while we're on the subject, exactly what do you plan to do if you do a barrel roll and see someone somewhere above you? Hum it low? Change direction and end up causing traffic problems for someone else? No real good option there, eh?

There's a reason that we use a uniform "low jumper has the right of way" strategy. It works and does so with minimum confusion - until people start throwing confusing, time-consuming extra procedures into the mix - like doing barrel rolls - which can easily cause a change of direction while tracking.

We don't clear our air above and wave off because we should have to. We do it IN CASE WE NEED TO. It's a last ditch contingency to get someone off your back who has already made a mistake.

Stop with the barrel roll crap.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jul 15, 2013, 6:31 PM
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Re: [jzzsxm] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

jzzsxm wrote:
Hmm, I didn't realize this was controversial, interesting.

Sunset tracking dives at my DZ always include a big long track and a barrel roll at the end but that's because we're dealing with 15-20 people. There also aren't any "lower jump number" jumpers that would be incapable of executing a barrel roll. We stop the track a bit early, do a roll, big wave, then pull.

What would I have done in that situation? I'd have stayed on the jump, not corrected the LO, and done a barrel roll. Organizer is the organizer, what they say goes, and if somebody doesn't feel comfortable doing a roll at the end then they can scratch. I don't mind doing a roll.

Your profile says 152 jumps in 1 year.
Last year, I was on a tracking dive where a young woman with 200 jumps (fairly skilled flyer) came out of her barrel roll off-heading and skimmed my leg.
My response was to track like hell and take it lower than usual. And not do any other jumps with that organizer until they stopped the barrel roll request at the end of tracking jumps.
There is a significant difference between a load of freeflyers that are experienced (know how to backtrack and stay on heading while doing so) and a group of fun jumpers doing a track at sunset.
Tracking jumps are more tricky than most think.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 15, 2013, 11:23 PM
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Everything DSE said and ChuckAkers said. The low man has right of way. The top man has the responsibility to stay clear of the jumper below him. If you can't handle that responsibility, get off the jump. I shouldn't have to barrel roll to make sure you're not above me.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 16, 2013, 2:02 AM
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Re: [Avikus] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Avikus wrote:
2) If you do a big clear wave and wait 2 second.. the person over you will have a clear view and time to track elsewhere or pull him/herself.

My 2 cents

DOLLARS worth of good stuff.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 16, 2013, 2:04 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rstanley0312 wrote:
BIGUN wrote:
>>>>My concern is the low timers on the jump that then feel like they have to and are not comfortable with it. Would you speak up right then and there?

Yes.

I am curious how many people will answer like this. I didn't speak up right then and there and have been thinking about it since.

Add one more..Yes.

...and advise against it


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jul 16, 2013, 2:17 AM)


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jul 16, 2013, 3:34 AM
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Re: What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't get why a barrel role was advcated in the first place. It was a head up jump - the standard breakoff should be a traffic check followed by a controlled transition into a back track and finally a roll to the belly. There's no point in a barrel roll.

If the low timers said to have been on the jump can't break off with a controlled transition to a back track they should not be in a group big enough to need this kind of organising. If the group's not got the skills to keep everyone relative to one another on a head up jump so that people don't know where everyone is come breakoff time, it shouldn't be going out the door and ought to be broken up into two smaller jumps.

What would I have done? I wouldn't have been on the dive as it is said to have included multiple low timers. If the group was big enough that the organiser thought it would have been a good idea to do a barrel roll, I don't want multiple low time jumpers on it with me unless I know them and how well they fly... in which case it wouldn't have needed an organiser. Kind of a catch 22.


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 16, 2013, 8:07 AM
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Re: [mr2mk1g] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

mr2mk1g wrote:
I don't get why a barrel role was advcated in the first place. It was a head up jump - the standard breakoff should be a traffic check followed by a controlled transition into a back track and finally a roll to the belly. There's no point in a barrel roll.

If the low timers said to have been on the jump can't break off with a controlled transition to a back track they should not be in a group big enough to need this kind of organising. If the group's not got the skills to keep everyone relative to one another on a head up jump so that people don't know where everyone is come breakoff time, it shouldn't be going out the door and ought to be broken up into two smaller jumps.

What would I have done? I wouldn't have been on the dive as it is said to have included multiple low timers. If the group was big enough that the organiser thought it would have been a good idea to do a barrel roll, I don't want multiple low time jumpers on it with me unless I know them and how well they fly... in which case it wouldn't have needed an organiser. Kind of a catch 22.

I don't get it either.... from a friend who just happens to be a badass flyer and coach. This is not him or me. He shared it to give a nice example of a point that was brought up earlier. The barrel roll at the end results in a lost picture of what is below.

http://vimeo.com/14382316


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:02 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
barrel roll at the end results in a lost picture of what is below.

http://vimeo.com/14382316

Perfect! ...THANK YOU, for this!!


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 16, 2013, 9:48 AM
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Re: [Scrumpot] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Scrumpot wrote:
In reply to:
barrel roll at the end results in a lost picture of what is below.

http://vimeo.com/14382316

Perfect! ...THANK YOU, for this!!

Nice example isn't it? Crazy


yoink

Jul 16, 2013, 9:59 AM
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy fucking shit!

That should be required viewing for every 'do a barrel roll' proponent out there.


Avikus  (C License)

Jul 16, 2013, 11:15 AM
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Re: [yoink] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Perfect example of being focus on what on top of you then under you.

I see tracking similar to skiing. Does the person down a ski hill look behind him before making a turn? No. The one coming down the hill behind him is the one that has to make sure he doesn't crash on the guy bellow him. And this goes on and on with everyone in the ski hill.

If everyone focus on below them and make sure they track in a clear direction, then barrel roll shouldn't even be mentioned.


NvyZero  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 12:49 PM
Post #37 of 50 (1263 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow lol I was leading that tracking dive back in the beginning of this year. I learned a lot about organizing after that one!


dudeman17  (D License)

Jul 17, 2013, 2:53 PM
Post #38 of 50 (1177 views)
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Re: [NvyZero] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here, especially from the older-time jumpers, so I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. In skydiving, NOBODY has the right-of-way. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to keep THEMSELVES alive from every angle and possibility. Two people skiing probably aren't going to die if they collide. Two people skydiving probably are, and you don't get to crawl out of your crater and dust yourself off just because you think it was the other guy's fault. If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jul 17, 2013, 3:27 PM
Post #39 of 50 (1141 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Rstanley0312 wrote:

I think that one had a dz.com thread of its own. It was a case where the formation was messed up after a small collision in freefall. Note that the guy doing the video, who nearly had a collision on opening, was looking forward and down for quite a while. Then he looks to both sides, throws in a quick barrel roll, and then sees someone deploying beneath & infront of him. One can argue whether he would have spotted the guy below even had he omitted the barrel roll.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2013, 3:37 PM
Post #40 of 50 (1135 views)
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Re: [dudeman17] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

>In skydiving, NOBODY has the right-of-way.

Just plain not true. During canopy flight, for example, the low person has right of way. This is not because someone just decided it should be that way - this is because you cannot physically see through your canopy, and thus you have a blind spot above you.

This does not mean, of course, that it is fine to stare below you and ignore everything else. You should keep your head on a swivel. But your primary responsibility is to ensure you stay clear of the people below you, just as the primary responsibility of the person above (who, often, you cannot see) is to stay clear of you.

Likewise in freefall your primary responsibility is to clear the airspace below you. Definitely look above yourself and take action if you see someone up there. But since you will very quickly be arriving in the airspace directly below you, that's where your primary responsibility lies.

That's why the video shown above is completely unacceptable. The guy did a barrel roll to check above him. No problem there. But in doing that he stopped checking below him - and that is completely unacceptable. He could have died, and much more significantly, could have killed someone else who was doing everything right.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 17, 2013, 8:24 PM
Post #41 of 50 (1070 views)
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Re: [dudeman17] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

dudeman17 wrote:
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here, especially from the older-time jumpers, so I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. In skydiving, NOBODY has the right-of-way. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to keep THEMSELVES alive from every angle and possibility. Two people skiing probably aren't going to die if they collide. Two people skydiving probably are, and you don't get to crawl out of your crater and dust yourself off just because you think it was the other guy's fault. If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with.

That's crap.

Accepted skydiving procedures do indeed include right of ways, and if you skydive the same way you advocate, it is YOU that is dangerous. You DO have a responsibility to yield to those below you, and if you don't agree with that I suggest you get the hell off the plane.

You must believe that others think of "right of way" as a law, which of course it isn't. The term "right of way" refers to an agreed upon procedure, not an absolute. No one here has said that the person below has the right to do as they please without regard to what's happening around them because of a right of way privilege. Right of way is a concept designed to take variables and confusion out of a situation, which is crucial in skydiving where decisions must be made split-second in an environment where the ability to do so is the difference between life and death.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it IS the responsibility of every jumper to check the air above - which can be accomplished without a barrel roll - and give a clear signal before throwing out. What the "right of way" folks are saying is that following a "low man has the right of way" procedure is safer than people taking their attention off targets below with a full body twirl, which can create a whole new world of deadly possibilities.

No one is arguing that we don't need to clear the air above. We are arguing about the safest way to get it done. Unless a person has a mobility issue, there is NO NEED to perform a barrel roll to clear the air above, which brings into question the concept of performing a barrel roll and taking one's eyes off the area below, which IS the area we are responsible to give right of way to. Get it? Every jumper IS RESPONSIBLE to YIELD TO the jumper below them. It's a ONE WAY STREET. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the accepted procedure and thus you are OBLIGATED to follow it.

And just for fun, let's try a different comparison. Try telling a cop that the guy in front of you in traffic should have gotten out of the way so you wouldn't have slammed him in the rear. Argue all you want, but it will be YOU that gets the ticket and YOUR insurance company that pays the claim.

Our vision is limited behind us, whether we stay on our bellies or barrel roll and get a "flash' of a person above us that still doesn't pinpoint whether they are a factor or not.

And finally, since you are schooling folks, let's school you. You said:

"If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with."

That is a very foolish comment and one I hope you will reconsider. The truth is that every one of us relies on everyone in our group for our survival on every jump. None of us can see everything at every moment on every skydive, and thus we ARE dependent on our fellow jumpers for our survival on every jump.

It's also the reason we have procedures - like focusing most of our attention on the person below, not the person above who should be following the same procedure.

I like your "it's on me" attitude, but when a jumper takes that to a point where they focus so much on their own safety that they ignore best practices that are in the best interest of EVERYONE'S safety, that's a problem.

If you can safely perform a barrel roll to clear your air while breaking off, good for you. But my bet is you can do the same thing without a barrel roll, and that would be a safer way to go.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jul 18, 2013, 5:11 AM
Post #42 of 50 (988 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Nice example isn't it?

On all counts. It's clear to see the loss of awareness below (where there turned out to be a jumper), but the other point it illustrates is that you can't see shit above you when you toss a barrel roll during a track.

Watch the video, and see if you think you could do a 'complete' scan of the sky above you during that maneuver?


Rstanley0312  (D 31900)

Jul 18, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #43 of 50 (898 views)
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Re: [davelepka] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

davelepka wrote:
Quote:
Nice example isn't it?

On all counts. It's clear to see the loss of awareness below (where there turned out to be a jumper), but the other point it illustrates is that you can't see shit above you when you toss a barrel roll during a track.

Watch the video, and see if you think you could do a 'complete' scan of the sky above you during that maneuver?

Agreed! On a freefly jump often times you are tracking away on your back anyway, for me all of the time. That is a great time to see what is above you but once you are on your belly going back to your back for a split second before deployment is pointless in my opinion. This should never be told to anyone by an instructor or organizer.


dudeman17  (D License)

Jul 18, 2013, 3:09 PM
Post #44 of 50 (880 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
dudeman17 wrote:
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here, especially from the older-time jumpers, so I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. In skydiving, NOBODY has the right-of-way. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to keep THEMSELVES alive from every angle and possibility. Two people skiing probably aren't going to die if they collide. Two people skydiving probably are, and you don't get to crawl out of your crater and dust yourself off just because you think it was the other guy's fault. If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with.

That's crap.

Accepted skydiving procedures do indeed include right of ways, and if you skydive the same way you advocate, it is YOU that is dangerous. You DO have a responsibility to yield to those below you, and if you don't agree with that I suggest you get the hell off the plane.

You must believe that others think of "right of way" as a law, which of course it isn't. The term "right of way" refers to an agreed upon procedure, not an absolute. No one here has said that the person below has the right to do as they please without regard to what's happening around them because of a right of way privilege. Right of way is a concept designed to take variables and confusion out of a situation, which is crucial in skydiving where decisions must be made split-second in an environment where the ability to do so is the difference between life and death.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it IS the responsibility of every jumper to check the air above - which can be accomplished without a barrel roll - and give a clear signal before throwing out. What the "right of way" folks are saying is that following a "low man has the right of way" procedure is safer than people taking their attention off targets below with a full body twirl, which can create a whole new world of deadly possibilities.

No one is arguing that we don't need to clear the air above. We are arguing about the safest way to get it done. Unless a person has a mobility issue, there is NO NEED to perform a barrel roll to clear the air above, which brings into question the concept of performing a barrel roll and taking one's eyes off the area below, which IS the area we are responsible to give right of way to. Get it? Every jumper IS RESPONSIBLE to YIELD TO the jumper below them. It's a ONE WAY STREET. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the accepted procedure and thus you are OBLIGATED to follow it.

And just for fun, let's try a different comparison. Try telling a cop that the guy in front of you in traffic should have gotten out of the way so you wouldn't have slammed him in the rear. Argue all you want, but it will be YOU that gets the ticket and YOUR insurance company that pays the claim.

Our vision is limited behind us, whether we stay on our bellies or barrel roll and get a "flash' of a person above us that still doesn't pinpoint whether they are a factor or not.

And finally, since you are schooling folks, let's school you. You said:

"If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with."

That is a very foolish comment and one I hope you will reconsider. The truth is that every one of us relies on everyone in our group for our survival on every jump. None of us can see everything at every moment on every skydive, and thus we ARE dependent on our fellow jumpers for our survival on every jump.

It's also the reason we have procedures - like focusing most of our attention on the person below, not the person above who should be following the same procedure.

I like your "it's on me" attitude, but when a jumper takes that to a point where they focus so much on their own safety that they ignore best practices that are in the best interest of EVERYONE'S safety, that's a problem.

If you can safely perform a barrel roll to clear your air while breaking off, good for you. But my bet is you can do the same thing without a barrel roll, and that would be a safer way to go.

Aww, geez, now that's why I don't post on here very often. There are always people lying in wait to take one statement out of context and convolute it into what they'd like it to mean so that they can get all haughty and throw down an argument.

Chuck, if you've read the entire thread, then you'd know from my previous post that I do not practice, nor do I advocate, the barrel roll method of clearing your airspace. And if what I've said in totality makes you think that I believe in the things that you're railing against, then perhaps you should move to Hollywood and get a job writing for the soap operas.

Chuck, both you and billvon, by the tone of your posts, have missed my point, yet within your posts, you've both MADE the same point as I have. I was trying to emphasize the point because I'm reading in here stuff like 'just wave off and wait a few seconds and let the other guy handle it', and 'watch the guy below you and let the guy above worry about you'. To be sure, in skydiving there are established protocols for breakoffs, canopy patterns, and what-not that include rights of way, and I teach, preach, and practice them every week. When I say 'nobody has the right of way', I do not mean that you should blow off yielding to the other guy's right of way. What I AM saying is that you should not bet your life on the other guy yielding to yours.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jul 18, 2013, 3:29 PM
Post #45 of 50 (858 views)
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Re: [dudeman17] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

dudeman17 wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
dudeman17 wrote:
I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here, especially from the older-time jumpers, so I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. In skydiving, NOBODY has the right-of-way. It's EVERYONE'S responsibility to keep THEMSELVES alive from every angle and possibility. Two people skiing probably aren't going to die if they collide. Two people skydiving probably are, and you don't get to crawl out of your crater and dust yourself off just because you think it was the other guy's fault. If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with.

That's crap.

Accepted skydiving procedures do indeed include right of ways, and if you skydive the same way you advocate, it is YOU that is dangerous. You DO have a responsibility to yield to those below you, and if you don't agree with that I suggest you get the hell off the plane.

You must believe that others think of "right of way" as a law, which of course it isn't. The term "right of way" refers to an agreed upon procedure, not an absolute. No one here has said that the person below has the right to do as they please without regard to what's happening around them because of a right of way privilege. Right of way is a concept designed to take variables and confusion out of a situation, which is crucial in skydiving where decisions must be made split-second in an environment where the ability to do so is the difference between life and death.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it IS the responsibility of every jumper to check the air above - which can be accomplished without a barrel roll - and give a clear signal before throwing out. What the "right of way" folks are saying is that following a "low man has the right of way" procedure is safer than people taking their attention off targets below with a full body twirl, which can create a whole new world of deadly possibilities.

No one is arguing that we don't need to clear the air above. We are arguing about the safest way to get it done. Unless a person has a mobility issue, there is NO NEED to perform a barrel roll to clear the air above, which brings into question the concept of performing a barrel roll and taking one's eyes off the area below, which IS the area we are responsible to give right of way to. Get it? Every jumper IS RESPONSIBLE to YIELD TO the jumper below them. It's a ONE WAY STREET. You don't have to agree with it, but it's the accepted procedure and thus you are OBLIGATED to follow it.

And just for fun, let's try a different comparison. Try telling a cop that the guy in front of you in traffic should have gotten out of the way so you wouldn't have slammed him in the rear. Argue all you want, but it will be YOU that gets the ticket and YOUR insurance company that pays the claim.

Our vision is limited behind us, whether we stay on our bellies or barrel roll and get a "flash' of a person above us that still doesn't pinpoint whether they are a factor or not.

And finally, since you are schooling folks, let's school you. You said:

"If you're leaving ANY part of your survival up to someone else, then you clearly don't fully understand the situation you're putting yourself in and how it needs to be dealt with."

That is a very foolish comment and one I hope you will reconsider. The truth is that every one of us relies on everyone in our group for our survival on every jump. None of us can see everything at every moment on every skydive, and thus we ARE dependent on our fellow jumpers for our survival on every jump.

It's also the reason we have procedures - like focusing most of our attention on the person below, not the person above who should be following the same procedure.

I like your "it's on me" attitude, but when a jumper takes that to a point where they focus so much on their own safety that they ignore best practices that are in the best interest of EVERYONE'S safety, that's a problem.

If you can safely perform a barrel roll to clear your air while breaking off, good for you. But my bet is you can do the same thing without a barrel roll, and that would be a safer way to go.

Aww, geez, now that's why I don't post on here very often. There are always people lying in wait to take one statement out of context and convolute it into what they'd like it to mean so that they can get all haughty and throw down an argument.

Chuck, if you've read the entire thread, then you'd know from my previous post that I do not practice, nor do I advocate, the barrel roll method of clearing your airspace. And if what I've said in totality makes you think that I believe in the things that you're railing against, then perhaps you should move to Hollywood and get a job writing for the soap operas.

Chuck, both you and billvon, by the tone of your posts, have missed my point, yet within your posts, you've both MADE the same point as I have. I was trying to emphasize the point because I'm reading in here stuff like 'just wave off and wait a few seconds and let the other guy handle it', and 'watch the guy below you and let the guy above worry about you'. To be sure, in skydiving there are established protocols for breakoffs, canopy patterns, and what-not that include rights of way, and I teach, preach, and practice them every week. When I say 'nobody has the right of way', I do not mean that you should blow off yielding to the other guy's right of way. What I AM saying is that you should not bet your life on the other guy yielding to yours.

Well then, never mind. Wink

I didn't notice that you posted previously. I was addressing your post the way I understood it. I obviously didn't catch the context, but that means others - including the all important knowledge-sucking noobs - might not have either.

Without respect to your post, my point stands. For the barrel rollers out there, if you can pull off a super-clean b/r while tracking have at it, but STOP advocating the technique as a standard procedure for all jumpers. It doesn't work for most jumpers and wil only serve to eventually get folks in trouble.

Besides, IT ISN'T NECESSARY!


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 21, 2013, 11:24 AM
Post #46 of 50 (735 views)
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Re: [Rstanley0312] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to rephrase this in "other" terms to better understand the question.


So As I understand this??? :

The person below, performing a barrel roll is now some how responsible for someone above, who may or may not pull whenever they want, (conceivably they could just move out of the way...) and at the same time, as in the vid also responsible for someone who has in fact opened up underneath.

Does the highest jumper not have to do a barrel roll?

Seriously, what action do I take while I'm in a barrel roll, clearing the airspace above me??

What would be your Organizer's answere to that???

Must be some sort of Mad Skilzz thing???

Seriously? I do a barrel roll, and I think I see someone above me, what do I do then?

Waiting?............

C


unkulunkulu  (C License)

Jul 21, 2013, 4:11 PM
Post #47 of 50 (686 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Give him an angry look so he understands better.


andym148  (D 103985)

Jul 22, 2013, 9:18 AM
Post #48 of 50 (558 views)
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Re: [unkulunkulu] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it me or did the jumper in the video go back down the line of flight? The track direction looked like it was 90 degs to the runway, after he gets hit the runway comes in to view as he (possibly) moves back towards it? Just a thought???

Personally i always barrel role after a big way track regardless, but thats just me... and yes you can see people above you if there still there. If you give a big wave off and wait 2 secs before pulling, and it works for you then all well and good. It's obviously worked for you during your jumping carrier, then why why change the drills your happy with? But on big way head up and head down drills i still think a 360 turn to clear your airspace around you before moving away from the group in a direction you know to be clear is a good idea and takes a few seconds to do. Move away, and then transition to your track and then you now nobody should be around you.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Jul 22, 2013, 8:46 PM
Post #49 of 50 (441 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Split - S, and hope he doesn't have missiles ??


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jul 22, 2013, 10:54 PM
Post #50 of 50 (420 views)
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Re: [andym148] What would you do? [In reply to] Can't Post

andym148 wrote:
But on big way head up and head down drills i still think a 360 turn to clear your airspace around you before moving away from the group in a direction you know to be clear is a good idea.....

I strongly advise against that.
Man, you're going to get beat up over that...just sayin'



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