Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
I almost died today.

 


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:11 AM
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I almost died today. Can't Post

I almost died today.

Well, Sunday actually.I've thought long and hard about what happened, and feel I need to share this with all my skydiver friends.

Please read, spend some time thinking about your safety procedures and stay alive for many more jumps.

http://skysmurf.com/.../i-almost-died-today


(This post was edited by vanessalh on Jul 10, 2013, 12:04 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:29 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Cricky
Wink


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:31 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

...while a mis-routed chest strap is of concern, this is ridiculously blown up and over-dramatized. Someone caught your gear error prior to even boarding the plane. You did not "almost die".CrazyCrazyCrazy

The guy who tried to re-route his chest strap in freefall and had a cypres fire...he almost died.

The guy in incidents who pulled low and landed 2 seconds after his slider came down...he almost died.

Be more careful next time.

This is a prime example of why we always need to look out for our friends. None of us are perfect.


Bluhdow  (B 37052)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:46 AM
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Re: [wildcard451] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

wildcard451 wrote:
...while a mis-routed chest strap is of concern, this is ridiculously blown up and over-dramatized. Someone caught your gear error prior to even boarding the plane. You did not "almost die".CrazyCrazyCrazy

The guy who tried to re-route his chest strap in freefall and had a cypres fire...he almost died.

The guy in incidents who pulled low and landed 2 seconds after his slider came down...he almost died.

Be more careful next time.

This is a prime example of why we always need to look out for our friends. None of us are perfect.

+1


peek  (D 8884)

Jul 10, 2013, 12:06 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
Please read, spend some time thinking about your safety procedures and stay alive for many more jumps.

http://skysmurf.com/.../i-almost-died-today

Vanessa, thank you very much for that posting and link to your blog. I particularly liked the section "This could never happen to me"


cavscout73  (C 40414)

Jul 10, 2013, 12:06 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like a good lesson learned on gear checks ..
I made that mistake once at around jump 50 trying to rush to get on a load. caught it on a final check before exiting.. As I was told after the jump by experienced jumpers its a fairly common mistake that is made once... After that you will always check, recheck and check again
And for about 350ish jumps since that has held very true and always will .
Near death experience, I would say no .. Made a mistake and now have had a great learning experience is the bottom line of it all.. Gear checks, do them on yourself and fellow jumpers!
Just my .02


DHemer  (B License)

Jul 10, 2013, 12:38 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for sharing
For this reason one of the experienced jumpers at my DZ randomly grabs peoples chest straps to see they are routed correctly


FreeFallFiend

Jul 10, 2013, 12:52 PM
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Re: [DHemer] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

DHemer wrote:
Thanks for sharing
For this reason one of the experienced jumpers at my DZ randomly grabs peoples chest straps to see they are routed correctly

I like the intent but not the practice. Please dont ever put your hands on me or my gear without permission.

After the FL incident where the WSer came out of his harness skydivers suddenly thought it was ok to constantly rub and pat my thighs to make sure my leg straps were on. I appreciate the intent, but it doesn't justify that particular execution.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 10, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #9 of 88 (11404 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post overall, just one point to make:

"If your chest strap is not correctly routed you will fall out of your rig when you deploy your parachute."

No, you generally won't. I've jumped with a misrouted chest strap and only realized it after I opened up and heard the "tink tink tink" of the empty friction adapter blowing around in the wind.

Why is this important? There was a recent incident where someone got very, very low caused by spending too much time trying to rethread a chest strap. It's not worth going in to solve a problem that likely will not kill you. If you deploy in a "normal" body position, with arms way out in front of you, your rig can't come off unless it slides all the way up your arms - and that's very unusual with a rig that fits well. And if that's an issue you can cross your arms over your chest, although this can actually _increase_ the odds of falling out by causing a head down deployment - so don't do this unless you've practiced flying face-down this way.

So overall very good points, and the very best way to deal with a misrouted/unrouted chest strap is to not have one to begin with. But in the unfortunate event that you find out about it in freefall - don't think that you are dead unless you get it routed.


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:06 AM
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Re: [peek] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Peek, glad you found it helpful.
I find that as I get more experience I need to guard against the 'it can never happen to mes' that assault me...


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:08 AM
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Re: [billvon] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, good clarification - there are ways to (mostly) safely deploy when you discover you don't have your chest strap routed properly in freefall. Grabbing opposite mudflap when deploying is one of them.

Trying to stuff your chest strap in and lose altitude awareness and have an AAD fire is NOT one of them :)


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:13 AM
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Re: [billvon] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Or to tweak what we're all taught in AFF:
"Pull
Pull at the right altitude
Pull with your chest strap properly done"

Don't sacrifice the first two for the last one :)

billvon, I'm interested in some more of your thought on crossing left after and grabbing mud flaps. Sounds like you think it's actually safer to deploy in a normal body position with an unrouted chest strap?


JeffCa  (B License)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:26 AM
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Re: [DHemer] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

DHemer wrote:
For this reason one of the experienced jumpers at my DZ randomly grabs peoples chest straps to see they are routed correctly

I do that too, to the young ladies. They keep screaming for me to get lost. I try to explain that it's for their own safety.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 11, 2013, 1:24 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Something that Michael Vaughan taught us on the canopy course - if you can see metal on someone's chest-strap it is most likely properly connectedSmile

Think about it and have a look at both correctly and incorrectly routed chest straps - you can see it from across the aircraft - no need to grab anything.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Jul 11, 2013, 9:35 AM
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Re: [JeffCa] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you and FreeFallFiend for that. For one thing, it's kind of annoying to see people grabbing other people's gear without asking first. Secondly, there's more than one way to misroute a chest strap. Pulling on it isn't the way to check it. Looking at it, and seeing what you're looking at, is more effective.


NorrinRadd  (Student)

Jul 11, 2013, 10:38 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a rank newbie, I very much appreciate this post. Thanks!


(This post was edited by NorrinRadd on Jul 11, 2013, 11:02 AM)


DcloudZ  (B 37320)

Jul 11, 2013, 10:56 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Aww... the title of this thread was misleadingFrown


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jul 11, 2013, 11:06 AM
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Re: [DcloudZ] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

DcloudZ wrote:
Aww... the title of this thread was misleadingFrown

^This^ Should read I almost jumped with my chest strap misrouted. I was expecting a NSTIWTIWGD story.


NorrinRadd  (Student)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Re: [airdvr] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

airdvr wrote:
DcloudZ wrote:
Aww... the title of this thread was misleadingFrown

^This^ Should read I almost jumped with my chest strap misrouted. I was expecting a NSTIWTIWGD story.
A who what? (Rank newbie here)


wildcard451  (D License)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:12 PM
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Re: [NorrinRadd] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

NorrinRadd wrote:
airdvr wrote:
DcloudZ wrote:
Aww... the title of this thread was misleadingFrown

^This^ Should read I almost jumped with my chest strap misrouted. I was expecting a NSTIWTIWGD story.
A who what? (Rank newbie here)

No Shit There I Was Thought I Was Gonna Die


NorrinRadd  (Student)

Jul 11, 2013, 12:16 PM
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Re: [wildcard451] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

lol! Nice! Thanks :)


FlyBear

Jul 11, 2013, 2:57 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Been there, done that. Cool

It was my jump number 25. Still rental gear, so it was mandatory to get checked by an instructor. He saw my mistake and just asked "Do you want to die today?".

That's something I'll never forget. Since then I'm checking my chest strap at least 100 times before exit Smile

I bet that won't happen to you again Wink

BlueS


danornan  (D 11308)

Jul 11, 2013, 3:35 PM
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Re: [FlyBear] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's never a good idea to jump without a chest strap.... or one that is mis-routed or not attached correctly.

But, that being said, unless you have a really bad opening or bad body position, you are not going to fall out of your parachute if the chest strap is either mis-routed or just not attached.

Once more, it's never a good idea, and I always check mine and as many around me as possible before boarding.

Quite a few years ago, I simply ran the chest strap over the buckle and for some odd reason looped it through the elastic keeper. No one caught it and my first indication of a problem was after opening, a missing altimeter that was on my chest strap, before I got on the airplane.

I'm not the first and surely won't be the last to do this and I do appreciate your "there I was story" in hopes that it will prevent someone else from being careless.


devildog  (C 40302)

Jul 11, 2013, 3:54 PM
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Re: [wildcard451] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

wildcard451 wrote:
...while a mis-routed chest strap is of concern, this is ridiculously blown up and over-dramatized. Someone caught your gear error prior to even boarding the plane. You did not "almost die".CrazyCrazyCrazy

The guy who tried to re-route his chest strap in freefall and had a cypres fire...he almost died.

The guy in incidents who pulled low and landed 2 seconds after his slider came down...he almost died.

Be more careful next time.

This is a prime example of why we always need to look out for our friends. None of us are perfect.

+1


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 11, 2013, 5:51 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sounds like you think it's actually safer to deploy in a normal body position with an
>unrouted chest strap?

If you can fly stably with your head up and your arms crossed over your chest - that's a safer way to deploy with a questionable chest strap, IMO.

If you cannot do this, and crossing your arms will cause you to go head down, leading to an unstable and potentially more violent deployment - then it is safer to NOT do that. Again IMO.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 11, 2013, 8:48 PM
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Re: [nigel99] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

nigel99 wrote:
Something that Michael Vaughan taught us on the canopy course - if you can see metal on someone's chest-strap it is most likely properly connectedSmile

Think about it and have a look at both correctly and incorrectly routed chest straps - you can see it from across the aircraft - no need to grab anything.
Absolutely right, except for some folks who then backfold their cheststraps to stow the excess. But those would show up as an exposed buckle. It's pretty easy to spot if you take the time to look. Smile


unkulunkulu  (C License)

Jul 12, 2013, 12:44 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
nigel99 wrote:
Something that Michael Vaughan taught us on the canopy course - if you can see metal on someone's chest-strap it is most likely properly connectedSmile

Think about it and have a look at both correctly and incorrectly routed chest straps - you can see it from across the aircraft - no need to grab anything.
Absolutely right, except for some folks who then backfold their cheststraps to stow the excess. But those would show up as an exposed buckle. It's pretty easy to spot if you take the time to look. Smile
yeah, those ones always make me suspicious and get a couple of seconds to make sure...


Nataly  (C 41225)

Jul 12, 2013, 3:56 AM
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Re: [wildcard451] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

wildcard451 wrote:
...while a mis-routed chest strap is of concern, this is ridiculously blown up and over-dramatized. Someone caught your gear error prior to even boarding the plane. You did not "almost die".CrazyCrazyCrazy

+1,000,000

I almost died today... I went to cross the street and a car whooshed by at what seemed like 50 mph... At that speed, if it had hit me, I would have turned into yet another statistic... Good thing at the last minute I realised I needed to look both ways before I stepped into the death-trap that people call "a road"...

... Remember people... It *could* happen to you...

Be safe TongueSly


PS: I know, I know... I couldn't help myself!! Do check your chest-strap - it's important. Don't talk about it like it was a near-death experience... It wasn't. On that basis, almost anything could be a near-death experience. Crazy


(This post was edited by Nataly on Jul 12, 2013, 3:59 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 12, 2013, 8:18 AM
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Re: [Nataly] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

The OP is a good friend of mine and having a great first year in the sport, 300+ jumps. She's also very safety conscious and aware. I'll forgive her touch of hyperbole. I can certainly remember some of my "Holy Crap!" moments.

Now, this one time, no shit, there I was . . . Laugh


Nataly  (C 41225)

Jul 12, 2013, 9:43 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
The OP is a good friend of mine and having a great first year in the sport, 300+ jumps. She's also very safety conscious and aware. I'll forgive her touch of hyperbole. I can certainly remember some of my "Holy Crap!" moments.

Now, this one time, no shit, there I was . . . Laugh


OK, that actually makes a lot more sense... LaughLaugh Her profile *does* say in the sport 15 years... However it doesn't take a maths genius to figure out that I joined DZ.com in 2004 and I think I haven't changed my profile stats since something like 2005...! BlushBlush

Anyhoo, the OP has now learned 2 valuable lessons:
- 1. Do a proper gear-check
- 2. Use the sentence "I scared myself today" instead of "I almost died today" Tongue


flyingmontana  (D 31509)

Jul 12, 2013, 11:04 AM
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Re: [Nataly] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Her profile *does* say in the sport 15 years... However it doesn't take a maths genius to figure out that I joined DZ.com in 2004 and I think I haven't changed my profile stats since something like 2005...! BlushBlush

Anyhoo, the OP has now learned 2 valuable lessons:
- 1. Do a proper gear-check
- 2. Use the sentence "I scared myself today" instead of "I almost died today" Tongue

What a drama queen...no wonder her one year in the sport has felt like 15 to her. Every day is an endless series of brushes with death...


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 12, 2013, 2:38 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
Now, this one time, no shit, there I was . . . Laugh

Thought I Was Gonna Die.

In freefall with nothing but a silkworm and a sewing maching...
Tongue

Seriously - To the OP:
Do you have any idea how your chest strap got that way?
I never put it on partway. If I start threading it through the buckle, it goes through correctly. I don't put it partway through and then stop. The same is true for everything on the rig. I don't leave my legs straps loose. If I've got the rig on, it's on right.

Also, you have added "Tug on strap" to your checks to make sure it is on correctly.
Do you think that you checked it visually and didn't notice it was not correct?

And last, the suggestion is to do the "3 Checks of 3s" (3 rings, 3 straps, 3 handles) 3 different times. Putting it on, before boarding the plane, before exit.

Do you follow that? It would mean that you missed it twice, after putting it on and before boarding (you were in the process of boarding when the pilot noticed).
I agree that it's a bit hyperbolic, but I also understand how it can feel when you have a serious scare like that.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 12, 2013, 4:38 PM
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Re: [flyingmontana] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

flyingmontana wrote:
Quote:
Her profile *does* say in the sport 15 years... However it doesn't take a maths genius to figure out that I joined DZ.com in 2004 and I think I haven't changed my profile stats since something like 2005...! BlushBlush

Anyhoo, the OP has now learned 2 valuable lessons:
- 1. Do a proper gear-check
- 2. Use the sentence "I scared myself today" instead of "I almost died today" Tongue

What a drama queen...no wonder her one year in the sport has felt like 15 to her. Every day is an endless series of brushes with death...


Smile Listen : M.M. She is not a drama queen!

BTW Wiz got married the other day! Did you do your tandem (Rating),... or and, with him he's getting a new rig now that he's all fixed up for independent teaching???

Anyways, she has a nice blog and wanted to share her experiences. Your the one that knows how folklore and similar gets started. Me I study communication and knowing you and knowing what you wrote, my things can get out of hand when everyone doesn't know every one else....

This example raises a very delicate issue for those women, that , err,...cripes I can't even say it cause I know I'm going to be misinterpreted,...


Some people need their chest straps more than others because everyone's anatomy is different. Additionally like many have discovered at a meet or such, when on a 5 min call and then that call gets moved to a right now call...finding out something is wrong with your equipment can be a very intense experience. The first time can be a real nightmare producer.

I am glad she had such a great outcome. She will be a much better and safer skydiver because of this, will you?

C

I do love you BTW....Smile


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jul 12, 2013, 6:46 PM)


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 13, 2013, 1:12 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for all the responses I received from my last post, "I almost died today". I've received quite a few responses on G+ and Facebook too.

I was heartened to see how many people used this as an opportunity to revaluate their own safety routines. I also received a few other types of responses, and felt it was important to respond to those folks.

http://skysmurf.com/...-your-safety-routine

Safety is not a single event, emergency procedure or safe guard. Safety is a chain of decisions built on the foundation of knowledge and preparation.

And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "overdramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?

Do you brush it off like nothing had happened, or do you take an equally serious look at what went wrong and why?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 13, 2013, 1:59 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "over-dramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?


Good question ~ I'll let you know when I have one. Wink


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 13, 2013, 4:56 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

We all aspire to your level of skygodness airtwardo ;)


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jul 13, 2013, 7:16 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
...And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "overdramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?

Do you brush it off like nothing had happened, or do you take an equally serious look at what went wrong and why?

When I find myself in a situation like yours, I ask 2 questions.

#1 - How did it happen?

#2 - Why didn't I catch it?

I try to figure out what mistake was made to create the error in the first place.
Was I distracted partway through?
Was I in too much of a hurry?
Do I really understand what I'm doing with it?

Then I try to figure out why my safety checks didn't catch it.
Did I get complacent?
Was I in too much of a hurry?
Were my checks cursory or did I really check?
Are the checks adequate, or do I need to change them?

I haven't seen you address either of these questions.
All I see is that you are adding "Tug on the chest strap" to your checks.
And I'm not sure that's really going to change much.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jul 14, 2013, 11:19 AM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
We all aspire to your level of skygodness airtwardo ;)

If by, "skygodness", you mean attention to detail, always being sure of what you're doing, and doing everything to avoid elementary, dipshit mistakes, then it sounds like something we should all aspire to.

Usually, the term is used in a derogatory manner, not to point out someone who is properly careful.

Kevin K.


Nataly  (C 41225)

Jul 14, 2013, 2:32 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "overdramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?

Do you brush it off like nothing had happened, or do you take an equally serious look at what went wrong and why?


I will answer that, since I was one of the people who audibly tutted and rolled my eyes when I read what constitutes as "almost dying" according to you...

I have had my share of moments when I thought "holy shit that was close/stupid/lucky"... I've scared myself a couple of times enough to seriously ask myself what I'm doing in the sport and whether it's "worth it"... I suspect most of us on here have... However, I suspect that most of us would be more cautious about making wildly exaggerated claims like "I nearly died"... Jeb Corliss flying off Table Mountain - he had a brush with death.

Don't get me wrong... It's perfectly ok to think "oh my gosh I could have died". Such a reflection is normal, healthy, and part of your natural survival instincts. What I *don't* like is the attention-grabbing title you chose to describe what is essentially a non-event. I understand it may have been what you *felt* like at the time, but there is a HUGE difference between being scared shitless of a *potential* consequence compared to an *actual* near-death experience. I think some of the people who snickered at your post did so because some very humble people have had REAL brushes with death and have never once felt the need for such outrageous hyperbole. I'll be honest: I was so put-off by the gross exaggeration of that statement that I found it hard to take anything you wrote seriously after such a bad start - I had to force myself to read the rest of your post.

It's like when they described the movie "Open Water" as "nerve-shredding terror"... It wasn't. It was three hours of obnoxious characters being predictably eaten one by one by sharks. I was only at the edge of my seat because I wanted so badly to leave the cinema (but I'm a cheap accountant and by principle I feel the need to watch the entire movie I just paid for no matter how awful it is).

Nevertheless, I will give you this: had you said "I misrouted my chest-strap," most people would never have read your post. (Just like I never would have gone to see a movie about 10 stupid people stranded at sea.)

And finally: just because I have never used the sentence "I nearly died yesterday" does not mean I do not fully realise the implications of similar mistakes I've made. It also doesn't mean I haven't reviewed my mistakes, learned from them, thanked my lucky stars nothing bad or worse happened, and talked/listened to others about what I should have done. I don't believe that not being a drama-queen means you are incapable of self-reflection and just "brush off" your mistakes... I think some people are less prone to making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Does that answer your question?



Ps- I don't know you well enough to simply assume you are a drama-queen... Perhaps you just overstated one thing based on your reaction and/or how scared you felt... However, it was a pretty MASSIVE overstatement... Unimpressed

Pps- Don't just assume that only the positive feedback is worthwhile... If you care about getting your message across, sometimes you have to choose your words carefully. Perhaps you wanted to be provocative. I, personally, was put off by it. But that's just me.


(This post was edited by Nataly on Jul 14, 2013, 2:45 PM)


BKS60  (C 41583)

Jul 14, 2013, 5:42 PM
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the experienced jumpers, that I highly respect, had a talk with me about chest straps. His thoughts were to always connect your chest strap first when putting on your rig. If that becomes your habit it lessens the chance of misrouting since its the first thing you do.
Since then I've tried to follow that. Also the people I usually jump with make a habit of checking each others equipment both on the ground and in flight and asking for checks of theirs.
Being safe doesn't take any fun away from the sport!


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:16 PM
Post #41 of 88 (2257 views)
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Re: [BKS60] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Great advice BKS60!


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:19 PM
Post #42 of 88 (2253 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If by, "skygodness", you mean attention to detail, always being sure of what you're doing, and doing everything to avoid elementary, dipshit mistakes, then it sounds like something we should all aspire to.

chill.... I assumed he was giving me a humorous jab knowing that we've all made mistakes. So replied in kind with a humorous jab.

If he truly believed that he's never made a mistake and that was the answer to safety... well that's a longer discussion.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:28 PM
Post #43 of 88 (2243 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
Quote:
If by, "skygodness", you mean attention to detail, always being sure of what you're doing, and doing everything to avoid elementary, dipshit mistakes, then it sounds like something we should all aspire to.

chill.... I assumed he was giving me a humorous jab knowing that we've all made mistakes. So replied in kind with a humorous jab.

If he truly believed that he's never made a mistake and that was the answer to safety... well that's a longer discussion.




Taken as intended. Wink


Of course I've make a mistake...Angelic

Thought I did something wrong once, but it turns out I was mistaken. Sly


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:37 PM
Post #44 of 88 (2239 views)
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Re: [Nataly] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'll be honest: I was so put-off by the gross exaggeration of that statement that I found it hard to take anything you wrote seriously after such a bad start - I had to force myself to read the rest of your post.

...

Nevertheless, I will give you this: had you said "I misrouted my chest-strap," most people would never have read your post. (Just like I never would have gone to see a movie about 10 stupid people stranded at sea.)

I'm sorry you felt this way about how I chose to express my experience. My goal was not to get into a debate about what qualifies as 'almost dying'. Depending on how close to death you'd like to take it you could argue that anyone with a good canopy above their head by 400ft did not 'almost die'. Or similarly you could say any time you jump out the plane you almost died, but heroically saved your life by deploying at 3,500ft.

My intent was to highlight the dire consequences of my safety mistake in a way that would help those new in the sport to understand the importance of a good safety routine that includes checking for a properly routed chest strap.

Many of the replies I've seen on this thread have undermined the importance of a correctly routed chest strap, and instead focused on how it's possible for it not to result in a fatal injury. For someone just off their A license with 30 jumps this sends the wrong message.


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:43 PM
Post #45 of 88 (2232 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow..... God help you if you ever have a real problem.


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:44 PM
Post #46 of 88 (2229 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

wolfriverjoe wrote:

When I find myself in a situation like yours, I ask 2 questions.

#1 - How did it happen?

#2 - Why didn't I catch it?

I try to figure out what mistake was made to create the error in the first place.
Was I distracted partway through?
Was I in too much of a hurry?
Do I really understand what I'm doing with it?

Then I try to figure out why my safety checks didn't catch it.
Did I get complacent?
Was I in too much of a hurry?
Were my checks cursory or did I really check?
Are the checks adequate, or do I need to change them?

These are excellent responses to a safety lapse wolfriverjoe.
You mention below, I'd add #3: How can I prevent it in the future? to the list.

Perhaps I could've been more explicit.
I've thought a lot about 1. but I honestly don't know. I wasn't rushed, wasn't distracted. Perhaps tired because it was the 23rd jump in 4 days, but that wouldn't be the first time I've done that many jumps in 4 days. Maybe just a combination of tired, hot, distracted. I'm not really sure. It actually took me a few mins when I got to the ground to figure out how to even misroute a chest strap...

For 2., I looked, but didn't LOOK. Tugging on my chest straps aims to solve this by bringing in a kinetic component to my checks that had been missing before, and in the process make it much more likely that I LOOK.


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 6:53 PM
Post #47 of 88 (2224 views)
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Re: [Andy_Copland] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy_Copland wrote:
Wow..... God help you if you ever have a real problem.

I'm curious, what would you describe as a real problem?

I feel that this situation was more dire than the malfunction I had, or the time someone didn't track away properly and almost deployed right into me, or the times where quick canopy course corrections are needed after large formation loads, or searching for an alternate landing area after winds changed. But not quite of the caliber of 'AAD fired for any number of reasons', 'canopy collision under 500ft', 'main wrapped around tail of aircraft', which I hope never to experience.


Liemberg  (Student)

Jul 14, 2013, 7:52 PM
Post #48 of 88 (2186 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Though it is a good idea to perform a complete check before boarding the aircraft and to board it 'ready to jump', it is an equally good idea to spend another few seconds on jump run to repeat (part of) the proces.

While not everything is always readily accesible in every aircraft (it can get cramped sometimes - see the discussion about the thrilling action packed video of the d-bag falling out of the helicopter elswhere on this site) all your handles (3) and all your straps (3) can and should be touched by YOU before you actually jump out - like when the plane begins its jumprun and you start to leave its comfortable seat or floor.

This realy beats correcting the situation in free fall...

Correcting the situation in freefall - if performed in the wrong manner - can quickly deteriorate into almost or actually dying.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 14, 2013, 8:26 PM
Post #49 of 88 (2166 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
wolfriverjoe wrote:

When I find myself in a situation like yours, I ask 2 questions.

#1 - How did it happen?

#2 - Why didn't I catch it?

I try to figure out what mistake was made to create the error in the first place.
Was I distracted partway through?
Was I in too much of a hurry?
Do I really understand what I'm doing with it?

Then I try to figure out why my safety checks didn't catch it.
Did I get complacent?
Was I in too much of a hurry?
Were my checks cursory or did I really check?
Are the checks adequate, or do I need to change them?

These are excellent responses to a safety lapse wolfriverjoe.
You mention below, I'd add #3: How can I prevent it in the future? to the list.

Perhaps I could've been more explicit.
I've thought a lot about 1. but I honestly don't know. I wasn't rushed, wasn't distracted. Perhaps tired because it was the 23rd jump in 4 days, but that wouldn't be the first time I've done that many jumps in 4 days. Maybe just a combination of tired, hot, distracted. I'm not really sure. It actually took me a few mins when I got to the ground to figure out how to even misroute a chest strap...

For 2., I looked, but didn't LOOK. Tugging on my chest straps aims to solve this by bringing in a kinetic component to my checks that had been missing before, and in the process make it much more likely that I LOOK.

I disagree that the tug/pull is a solution. All that happens is you lull yourself into a false sense of security and give a half hearted tug without looking - I can pretty much guarantee that you could 'pass' a misrouted chest strap in that case.

The route cause is complacency. For 300 odd times you've looked and it was alright - so your brain filled in the gaps when you looked and you saw what you expected to see. I've been cleared to jump by an instructor with a full twist in my harness that might have prevented me cutting away - another jumper noticed it.

The point ultimately is 'expect' to find a problem, make sure you are devoting conscious effort to the checks and repeat multiple times. I partially agree with those who say have a routine and stick to it - but sooner or later someone is going to interrupt your routine.

It's a real problem and some of us who have thorough routines, lull ourselves into a safe sense of security - all the while feeling smug that we are safer than the average jumper. The sheer fact you don't catch problems 99% of the time, is the problem - you simply don't expect to find one.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Jul 14, 2013, 9:00 PM
Post #50 of 88 (2133 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
Andy_Copland wrote:
Wow..... God help you if you ever have a real problem.

I'm curious, what would you describe as a real problem?

Riding in half a main with your reserve stuck in it.Wink

I think what we are discussing is the difference between, "I could have died today" as opposed to "I nearly died today." The first involves a screw-up that is caught before the dire consequences come to pass, and the second where consequences happen, but you luck out.

Yeah, it's not a huge thing in the world of human suffering, but it's what we do here......

top


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 9:08 PM
Post #51 of 88 (1772 views)
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Re: [nigel99] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Great idea to switch focus to expecting to find a problem. Someone on fb mentioned to look for what is wrong not what is right. You're more likely to find what you're looking for after all :)

Yikes on your instructor missing that. Wow. Glad someone else caught it.


ManagingPrime

Jul 14, 2013, 9:19 PM
Post #52 of 88 (1755 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "overdramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?

Analyze and don't repeat.

Posting on DZ.com is a mixed bag. You can get valuable feedback if you can filter through the noise and you can share an experience that others can learn from. You can also elicit the ire of other jumpers who can view your post as over-dramatized or self-aggrandizing... it's a difficult medium for communication.

I could have created a thread about the "near death experience" I had today... no shit...I really thought I was going to buy the farm, but my mistake was on the level, worse actually, of misrouting a chest strap...noob. But, just like a misrouted chest strap there is not much to be learned by the "community" from my experience. I knew exactly what mistakes I made that lead up to that "near death experience" and that was enough for me and the other jumper who I endangered.

That said, don't take the heat from the post seriously. Anyone who is prone to posting online is going to get flamed from time to time.

You like to blog and that's cool, you just have to consider your audience... at least one of your respondents did almost die in a "no shit I woke up a month later" kind of way and I don't recall them posting about it on DZ.com. There are A LOT of incidents, if not the vast majority, that never made it on this board and most here are aware of that fact. Again, consider your audience....

In the end though, it's great that we are reading this "over dramatized" thread instead of reading an incident report. Smile


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 14, 2013, 9:40 PM
Post #53 of 88 (1741 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
Great idea to switch focus to expecting to find a problem. Someone on fb mentioned to look for what is wrong not what is right. You're more likely to find what you're looking for after all :)

Yikes on your instructor missing that. Wow. Glad someone else caught it.



My better half is a pilot who goes through training & check rides frequently...one of the best things I picked up from her is a statement they always make during the crew resource management discussions.

It's seems that 'when you have that funny feeling something isn't right - - more often than not, something IS wrong'

They encourage the crews to speak up, to start the routine over, to be more vigilante is the assessment of the aircraft...what ever it takes to get rid of that feeling.

I always keep the with me...if 'something' doesn't feel right - - -STOP and look hard.


Nataly  (C 41225)

Jul 14, 2013, 10:17 PM
Post #54 of 88 (1719 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

ManagingPrime wrote:
vanessalh wrote:
And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "overdramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?

Analyze and don't repeat.

Posting on DZ.com is a mixed bag. You can get valuable feedback if you can filter through the noise and you can share an experience that others can learn from. You can also elicit the ire of other jumpers who can view your post as over-dramatized or self-aggrandizing... it's a difficult medium for communication.

I could have created a thread about the "near death experience" I had today... no shit...I really thought I was going to buy the farm, but my mistake was on the level, worse actually, of misrouting a chest strap...noob. But, just like a misrouted chest strap there is not much to be learned by the "community" from my experience. I knew exactly what mistakes I made that lead up to that "near death experience" and that was enough for me and the other jumper who I endangered.

That said, don't take the heat from the post seriously. Anyone who is prone to posting online is going to get flamed from time to time.

You like to blog and that's cool, you just have to consider your audience... at least one of your respondents did almost die in a "no shit I woke up a month later" kind of way and I don't recall them posting about it on DZ.com. There are A LOT of incidents, if not the vast majority, that never made it on this board and most here are aware of that fact. Again, consider your audience....

In the end though, it's great that we are reading this "over dramatized" thread instead of reading an incident report. Smile

/\ /\ /\ THIS.

Poor choice of words (for this crowd). Like telling a room full of war-veterans about almost getting hurt... Unimpressed

Unfortunately, you can be right all day long, you will never "win" an argument just by being right - you have to also deliver the information in an effective maner. I suspect that the people minimising the event are reacting more to the "drama" than anything else - I don't think anyone really believes misrouting your chest-strap is no big deal (if they did, they wouldn't bother putting it on at all, and there would be a lot more posts in the Incidents forum!).

All things considered, a lot of people DO remember what it's like to be a newbie and for that reason HAVE made an effort to draw out the good stuff in your post. For example, Nigel99 nicely points out that routine, expected outcomes and complacency all play a role in making mistakes... I couldn't agree more. Like turning off the stove after cooking something... My mom regularly forgot this as she was absent-mindedly doing a million things at a time, and I'm SUPER paranoid about it as a result, because she once partially set fire to the kitchen... But I did come home once and my stove-top had been on all day!!! It happens. You can't do everything right every time. Occasionally, a good scare is the BEST way to learn because nothing bad happened, yet you still realised your mistake. Good for you for sharing; do consider your crowd, though. Tongue


(This post was edited by Nataly on Jul 14, 2013, 10:38 PM)


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 10:48 PM
Post #55 of 88 (1708 views)
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Re: [ManagingPrime] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

:) Thanks ManagingPrime - always great to hear a little encouragement.

I don't take comments personally - after all, this is the Internet, if I took every comment personally I would have serious psychological issues within a few months ;)

I'll admit I was surprised at how quickly it turned negative on dz.com (as compared w/ responses from skydivers on fb -where I know ppl or g+ - where I don't know ppl).

I had always thought dz.com would be a great place for folks new to the sport to learn more. I know I had a ton of questions about skydiving when I started (still do) - why, how, when, etc. and was interested to get perspectives of the broader skydiving community.

I'm discovering that mixed in with the thoughtful and well reasoned responses there is a lot of replies that go something like, "you should already know this, why are you asking?" or "that's nothing special" or in a response to a question seeking to learn a new technique "don't do this you'll die - without further explanation". Along with a lot of folks who never seem to make a mistake, and an equal number who deride people who do admit to mistakes.

Thankfully I don't see this as much at the dropzone in person, but where I do it can make the sport feel intimidating and unwelcoming.

I'll keep sharing my experiences, and doing my best to make skydiving an approachable and safe sport for everyone. I'm hopeful that some of the threads I've seen in the last year are not representative of the general tone here.


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 14, 2013, 10:52 PM
Post #56 of 88 (1707 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
It's seems that 'when you have that funny feeling something isn't right - - more often than not, something IS wrong'

So true - often your unconscious mind will perceive something still on the edge of consciousness. My boyfriend told me about a time he was on the plane and got this funny feeling. He ended up landing with the plane, and on unpacking his main noticed a line over.


jurgencamps  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 12:20 AM
Post #57 of 88 (1674 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

The lesson is that we all will make mistakes. This is something we have to accept.
Those who state that they never will make this or another mistake, will never learn THE lesson.
The lesson is: it is very important to have a system to find the mistake, before it poses a problem. Check before you board and check before you jump.
Thx for sharing your story.
Gr
Jurgen


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 12:45 AM
Post #58 of 88 (1650 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Those who state that they never will make this or another mistake, will never learn THE lesson.
The lesson is: it is very important to have a system to find the mistake, before it poses a problem.

OR...maybe they already know 'THE' lesson and they HAVE such a system in place - LaughLaugh


Greell  (B License)

Jul 15, 2013, 12:53 AM
Post #59 of 88 (1643 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is why we need to do gear checks. Not just on ourselves, but for our brothers and sisters too. Keep a vigilant eye, and if you see something...call it out.

I see so many people not doing gear checks these days, to cut some time getting to a now-call. It's crazy! Do your gear checks people.

If you're in free fall and you notice your chest strap undone or incorrectly routed....when you go to pull....pitch, grab your elbows (crossing your arms, hand to elbow) and look up (to not pitch downward causing bad stability)

Remember that a chest strap is NOT designed to be a load bearing strap. You can easily survive such a mistake, if you make it, and you notice it in time. Ideally the plan is "Don't make this mistake"....but it can happen.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:21 AM
Post #60 of 88 (1638 views)
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Re: [Greell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Greell wrote:
This is why we need to do gear checks. Not just on ourselves, but for our brothers and sisters too. Keep a vigilant eye, and if you see something...call it out.

I see so many people not doing gear checks these days, to cut some time getting to a now-call. It's crazy! Do your gear checks people.

Actually I think this misses an important part of the lesson that could be learnt. Doing gear checks with the wrong mindset is as bad as not doing them at all.

It's interesting how 'obvious' things slip past us - a brilliant example is this experiment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo


JackC1

Jul 15, 2013, 1:44 AM
Post #61 of 88 (1634 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

vanessalh wrote:
I'm hopeful that some of the threads I've seen in the last year are not representative of the general tone here.


Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'entrate


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:51 AM
Post #62 of 88 (1626 views)
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Re: [JackC1] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

JackC1 wrote:
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'entrate

Haha :) There is always hope :)


devildog  (C 40302)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:29 AM
Post #63 of 88 (1547 views)
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Re: [Nataly] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nataly wrote:
ManagingPrime wrote:
vanessalh wrote:
And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "overdramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?

Analyze and don't repeat.

Posting on DZ.com is a mixed bag. You can get valuable feedback if you can filter through the noise and you can share an experience that others can learn from. You can also elicit the ire of other jumpers who can view your post as over-dramatized or self-aggrandizing... it's a difficult medium for communication.

I could have created a thread about the "near death experience" I had today... no shit...I really thought I was going to buy the farm, but my mistake was on the level, worse actually, of misrouting a chest strap...noob. But, just like a misrouted chest strap there is not much to be learned by the "community" from my experience. I knew exactly what mistakes I made that lead up to that "near death experience" and that was enough for me and the other jumper who I endangered.

That said, don't take the heat from the post seriously. Anyone who is prone to posting online is going to get flamed from time to time.

You like to blog and that's cool, you just have to consider your audience... at least one of your respondents did almost die in a "no shit I woke up a month later" kind of way and I don't recall them posting about it on DZ.com. There are A LOT of incidents, if not the vast majority, that never made it on this board and most here are aware of that fact. Again, consider your audience....

In the end though, it's great that we are reading this "over dramatized" thread instead of reading an incident report. Smile

/\ /\ /\ THIS.

Poor choice of words (for this crowd). Like telling a room full of war-veterans about almost getting hurt... Unimpressed

Good analogy.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:48 AM
Post #64 of 88 (1490 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't wait for his response.
LaughLaughLaugh


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:55 AM
Post #65 of 88 (1482 views)
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Re: [normiss] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
I can't wait for his response.
LaughLaughLaugh

Yeah...prolly the wrong guy to ask that to huh? Wink


Nataly  (C 41225)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #66 of 88 (1399 views)
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Re: [nigel99] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

nigel99 wrote:
Greell wrote:
This is why we need to do gear checks. Not just on ourselves, but for our brothers and sisters too. Keep a vigilant eye, and if you see something...call it out.

I see so many people not doing gear checks these days, to cut some time getting to a now-call. It's crazy! Do your gear checks people.

Actually I think this misses an important part of the lesson that could be learnt. Doing gear checks with the wrong mindset is as bad as not doing them at all.

It's interesting how 'obvious' things slip past us - a brilliant example is this experiment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo


Nthr gd xmpl s tht y cn prbbly rd ths txt vn thgh ll th vwls r mssng... Jst gs t shw hw gd w r t sng wht w wnt t s...


(This post was edited by Nataly on Jul 15, 2013, 9:19 AM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:19 AM
Post #67 of 88 (1390 views)
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Re: [Nataly] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

don't be so dramatic Angelic


Greell  (B License)

Jul 15, 2013, 12:07 PM
Post #68 of 88 (1326 views)
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Re: [nigel99] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

nigel99 wrote:
Greell wrote:
This is why we need to do gear checks. Not just on ourselves, but for our brothers and sisters too. Keep a vigilant eye, and if you see something...call it out.

I see so many people not doing gear checks these days, to cut some time getting to a now-call. It's crazy! Do your gear checks people.

Actually I think this misses an important part of the lesson that could be learnt. Doing gear checks with the wrong mindset is as bad as not doing them at all.

It's interesting how 'obvious' things slip past us - a brilliant example is this experiment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

Depends on your mindset? What was yours?...my mindset is....do a gear check. I don't think it's any more complicated than that. Selective attention isn't ENTIRELY applicable because you're gearing up, checking your gear, and getting on a load....if you want to throw more variables in the mix...you're talking to other people, and maybe a dirt dive. Maybe you're even in a rush to get to a now-call.

You're not balancing on a high beam, while helicopters are swooping down with machine guns firing at you, and the building is on fire.

There isn't much going on when you are gearing up...just do the damn gear check.

Also, like I said (to cover my own ass)..." Ideally the plan is "Don't make this mistake"....but it can happen. "

Not saying you don't have a point....i'm just saying, lets not over complicate it.

Do your gear checks.


Liemberg  (Student)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:18 PM
Post #69 of 88 (1304 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

On checking stuff: Once upon a time I found myself cheking a Strong Dual Hawk tandem rig that has a strickt set of rules 'what to do in what order'.

On reaching opening altitude you must:

1) release drogue with Master ripcord
2) If drogue not released pull passenger ripcord
3) If drogue still not released pull silver/reserve

As it happened. someone called my name and asked me a question right in the middle of that check.

Later on in the narrative I pulled the Master drogue release but kept speeding towards 'terra firma' - the drogue would not release.

Faster than I am able to write this down i said to myself: 'both loops on the passengers ripcord in stead of one loop on each ripcord cannot possibly be the problem for I distinctly remember pulling the drogue attachment out and visualy checking it -so there's no need to go for the passengers ripcord!'

I DEVIATED FROM PRESCRIBED PROCEDURES,SINCE I WAS ABSOLUTLY SURE ABOUT WHAT COULD AND COULD NOT BE HAPPENING.

In stead I went directly for silver (duh...)

Guess what... CrazyBlushCrazyBlushCrazyBlush

The trouble with routinely checking the same thing again and again and again is that you tend to not actually observe what is right in front of your eyes but see (or should I say 'halucinate'?) what you are expecting to see...

There is a lesson somewhere in the above... TongueCool


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 1:39 PM
Post #70 of 88 (1277 views)
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Re: [Greell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not saying you don't have a point....i'm just saying, lets not over complicate it.

Do your gear checks.

Yup...it's not Rocket Surgery, make sure the parachute is in working order and is on right.

When you get down to the heart of the matter...that's REALLY what the FIRST priority HAS to be in order to survive freefall.

I check my pins, handles & hardware before putting it on.

I check the handles & hardware before boarding the plane.

I do 3 checks of 3's while IN the aircraft - one - prior to takeoff, two - at a grand when the seatbelts are removed & #3 - again once more on jumprun.

Been doing it that way since I started Skydiving, think about what you're doing any why - - what the consequences are for missing something important.

THAT tends to get it prioritized correctly & that the proper attention given.

~ If as in the OP's case, something was caught early - good, I would sit & think hard about why 'something' other than the #1 priority got in the mix.

I think she's done that with the thread & blog...kinda doubt she'll LET herself make that mistake again.

Cool


vanessalh  (D 33301)

Jul 15, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #71 of 88 (1216 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:

~ If as in the OP's case, something was caught early - good, I would sit & think hard about why 'something' other than the #1 priority got in the mix.

I think she's done that with the thread & blog...kinda doubt she'll LET herself make that mistake again.

Cool

Yup, I've got a world of other mistakes waiting to be made, but I think I'm through with this one :)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jul 15, 2013, 3:06 PM
Post #72 of 88 (1143 views)
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Re: [Greell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Greell,

Quote:
Remember that a chest strap is NOT designed to be a load bearing strap.

I could not disagree more with this.

People have died because of undone chest straps and chest straps that have torn out on opening.

If a chest strap can tear out on opening then it is taking a fair amount of the opening forces.

If you really believe this, why do you hook up your chest strap before you jump?

Tongue

JerryBaumchen


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 15, 2013, 4:37 PM
Post #73 of 88 (1110 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

>If you really believe this, why do you hook up your chest strap before you jump?

It decreases the odds of falling out of my rig. And it keeps the end of the chest strap from flapping around and annoying me.


beeman  (A 65979)

Jul 15, 2013, 5:46 PM
Post #74 of 88 (1084 views)
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Re: [Greell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Greell wrote:
Depends on your mindset? What was yours?...my mindset is....do a gear check. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

I think I get what he's trying to say, and if I'm right then I agree with Nigel. There's a third option - do an insufficient gear check.

What I mean is things like tugging on a chest strap and calling it good. I agree with Nigel and think it's entirely possible to misroute it and have it pass that test. Two seconds of looking carefully at the adapter and you KNOW it's good. That said, I actually do both, many times before I leave the plane.

How many people that normally gear check have you seen throw a rig on for a now call and glance over everything without a pin check? How many of those people slept most of the way up? I've seen at least a few in 54 jumps. How many don't check handles before the door opens?

The notion that your brain is capable of filling in some pretty big gaps is absolutely correct. Bringing it back to the original point, the mindset difference is carefully to do the entire gear check, multiple times because you know the assumption that you caught everything and nothing has changed can very easily be wrong.

it's pretty much the same as saying your mindset is DO a gear check, but there is an attitude there, even if a simple one.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 7:09 PM
Post #75 of 88 (1053 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
In reply to:
And to all the folks who had a good chuckle at my "over-dramatized" experience, I've got one question for you - what do you do when you have a serious lapse in your safety procedures?


Good question ~ I'll let you know when I have one. Wink

Ditto to that....


sundevil777  (D License)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:35 PM
Post #76 of 88 (1712 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

As others have suggested, visually checking for proper chest strap routing on the rigs of others is a great idea. You might notice a mistake, and I think it is very unlikely that if on every jump you take a good amount of time to confirm that others have done it right, I think it is especially unlikely that you could make the mistake of checking your own gear and not notice if it was done wrong. I caught a misrouted cutaway housing (through the large ring) on the way to altitude because I was looking for problems - you have to spend a lot of time to confirm the gear of others, so it is natural to do a real check of your own at the same time.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on Jul 15, 2013, 9:50 PM)


Greell  (B License)

Jul 15, 2013, 9:44 PM
Post #77 of 88 (1694 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

JerryBaumchen wrote:
Hi Greell,

Quote:
Remember that a chest strap is NOT designed to be a load bearing strap.

I could not disagree more with this.

People have died because of undone chest straps and chest straps that have torn out on opening.

If a chest strap can tear out on opening then it is taking a fair amount of the opening forces.

If you really believe this, why do you hook up your chest strap before you jump?

Tongue

JerryBaumchen

Let me rephrase my meaning....It is load bearing "enough" for it's purpose. It wasn't designed to be as load bearing as, say, your leg straps. I simply meant that, if you are in freefall, and your chest strap is undone...You can still cross your arms elbow to elbow when you pull, to mimic a chest strap.

Now if your opening is hard enough to rip your chest strap when it's just your arms crossed...you might be sore. but you'll still get the job done.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jul 16, 2013, 12:51 AM
Post #78 of 88 (1634 views)
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Re: [Greell] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now if your opening is hard enough to rip your chest strap when it's just your arms crossed...you might be sore. but you'll still get the job done.


Just curious Chuck...is that an opinion based on hard data, personal experience?


Greell  (B License)

Jul 16, 2013, 6:40 AM
Post #79 of 88 (1566 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nah luckily not personal experience, but I think if my chest strap wasn't on and I was going to cross my arms to brace when I opened....i'd hold on pretty damn tight. And if it was a hard opening, just knowing how much force that's going to absorb, I imagine it won't feel too good :)

But what do I know, i've never been put in that situation, so it's an assumption....and you know what they say about assumptions.


DrDom  (Student)

Aug 4, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #80 of 88 (1326 views)
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Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a strange feeling on this post of people not understanding the poster. First, as a blogger, she did the single most important thing: got people to read and think. You may disagree with the title but experience of "near death" is relative. One does not need to be imminently in danger to save their life. Pulling a chute and saying you saved your life is certainly an odd way but only because it is EXPECTED as the sport. Its like saying you stopped at the bottom of a mountain skiing and saved your life. Sure, it would not be untruth, but not reality. In this case, would you have preferred that the noticed it after pull and had to catch herself, is that close enough? How about if she slipped 75% out of her harness? Or noticed it on the ground?

Its so easy to berate the poster/blogger but I think it takes a lot of courage to post anything in front of an audience that seems to chomp at the bit like this. If she felt she nearly died because of a gear error and never again makes the mistake... is that not worth it? If someone NEW like ME reads this and now understands the complexity of a chest strap and how much of a misadventure one can have because of it... is the title not fine?

Once upon a time I remember a similar discussion while I was at work. A police officer came in and had been shot but the round hit dead center of his body armour in a thing called a "trauma plate" (its a small area mid chest where there is an extra panel for chest shots to absorb more of the force). The officer had a ton of pain but was fine. One officer (he was probably in his late 50's) said "You are lucky, you nearly died". His younger companion (a fresh-out rookie) remarked "You didn't almost die, you were wearing body armour for Christ's sake".

How close to death is enough to feel like you almost died? How much do you want to scare people from making these points? Are we better people for berating others' choice of words? You're a community. One I hoped to be part of. Lets work together and try to embrace each other instead of just focusing on making a point to the OP


unkulunkulu  (C License)

Aug 4, 2013, 11:50 PM
Post #81 of 88 (1267 views)
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Re: [DrDom] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, now I am finally able to express what bothers me about this thread.

The problem is: the misrouted chest strap is an obvious, simple hazard. You just have to route it, that's all! Why dedicate so much attention to it? Just route it, check a couple of times in the plane, check your friends. I feel that there are many more subtle hazards in this sport that require thought and reiteration and with Vanessa's experience it's time to dedicate more thought to those, why distract thought to this issue? I see a real problem here.


Nataly  (C 41225)

Aug 5, 2013, 12:44 AM
Post #82 of 88 (1240 views)
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

Urgh. Can we not lock this thread? I don't think we will get anything useful out of it anymore...


kuai43  (C License)

Aug 5, 2013, 3:38 AM
Post #83 of 88 (1205 views)
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

unkulunkulu wrote:
Ok, now I am finally able to express what bothers me about this thread.

The problem is: the misrouted chest strap is an obvious, simple hazard. You just have to route it, that's all! Why dedicate so much attention to it? Just route it, check a couple of times in the plane, check your friends. I feel that there are many more subtle hazards in this sport that require thought and reiteration and with Vanessa's experience it's time to dedicate more thought to those, why distract thought to this issue? I see a real problem here.

Yes, absolutely! Hear, hear! Fuck all that noise about checking pins & pilot chutes. For that matter, don't wear seat belts in your car, or make sure your mirrors are adjusted. After all, there are subtle things that are going to get you.

I'll go first... Unkulunklunkalooo: Sept 7th, 2:30pm.


unkulunkulu  (C License)

Aug 5, 2013, 3:50 AM
Post #84 of 88 (1191 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

kuai43 wrote:
Yes, absolutely! Hear, hear! Fuck all that noise about checking pins & pilot chutes. For that matter, don't wear seat belts in your car, or make sure your mirrors are adjusted. After all, there are subtle things that are going to get you.

I'll go first... Unkulunklunkalooo: Sept 7th, 2:30pm.
Is it trolling or something? Did I mention pins, pilot chutes? For that matter, yes, the pin is one of those more difficult things. Chest strap: it's right there in front of your nose just check it, couldn't imagine a simpler thing in skydiving.


devildog  (C 40302)

Aug 5, 2013, 4:08 AM
Post #85 of 88 (1176 views)
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Re: [DrDom] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

DrDom wrote:
How close to death is enough to feel like you almost died? How much do you want to scare people from making these points? Are we better people for berating others' choice of words? You're a community. One I hoped to be part of. Lets work together and try to embrace each other instead of just focusing on making a point to the OP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b90EzNNrQ2M
That would do it for, "How close to death is enough to feel like you almost died?". That guy with a loose cheststrap, had he not had an AAD, would be a pancake right now.

Catching a gear error on someone before they even board the plane is closer to "normal" than it is to "almost died." Hell, I must have saved a few student lives by now if all I had to do to "save" them was to say, "Hey...what about this?" Wink


ChrisD  (No License)

Aug 9, 2013, 8:56 AM
Post #86 of 88 (1012 views)
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Re: [Nataly] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nataly wrote:
Urgh. Can we not lock this thread? I don't think we will get anything useful out of it anymore...


While on some levels I would agree with you, but.

How you support your community does in fact matter.

Stereotypes kill, and your perpetuating a stereotype with your comments.

If everyone was in fact giving each other gear checks the community in itself may in fact promote safety as compared with blaming individuals for their own predicaments.

The Hawaii tail strike illustrates this quite well! If the other jumpers on board had given the individual a little coaching and support about the differences and configuration of differing aircraft, had taken a moment so to speak, that individual would still be here!

The next generation in safety is changing the system so that everyone can understand how our environment has an effect upon us all.

Telling someone to shut the fuck up isn't going to help.
In fact I could continue this negativity and perpetuate the stereotype by saying something like "you are free to read or not read whatever you like."

But that isn't going to help anyone.

I can understand you frustration.

Do you understand theirs?

It's not about you, it's about them, and understanding them takes a lot of work and an open and accepting mind.

C

Smile


DrDom  (Student)

Aug 26, 2013, 3:22 AM
Post #87 of 88 (807 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Why so much hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
Nataly wrote:
Urgh. Can we not lock this thread? I don't think we will get anything useful out of it anymore...


While on some levels I would agree with you, but.

How you support your community does in fact matter.

Stereotypes kill, and your perpetuating a stereotype with your comments.

If everyone was in fact giving each other gear checks the community in itself may in fact promote safety as compared with blaming individuals for their own predicaments.

The Hawaii tail strike illustrates this quite well! If the other jumpers on board had given the individual a little coaching and support about the differences and configuration of differing aircraft, had taken a moment so to speak, that individual would still be here!

The next generation in safety is changing the system so that everyone can understand how our environment has an effect upon us all.

Telling someone to shut the fuck up isn't going to help.
In fact I could continue this negativity and perpetuate the stereotype by saying something like "you are free to read or not read whatever you like."

But that isn't going to help anyone.

I can understand you frustration.

Do you understand theirs?

It's not about you, it's about them, and understanding them takes a lot of work and an open and accepting mind.

C

Smile

I think ChrisD speaks well of how we should act. Lets criticize less and encourage more. There is another thread about "should I have cut away"... why are we chastizing people for making decisions or helping others to note a potentially fatal problem? We should be able to discuss this like the intelligent adults we are. If you can jump from a plane, freefall, manage a canopy, understand the complexity of flight, and not kill yourself... you certainly can be a positive source of light for your community and not just lash out in anger and disregard. You may not see this as "lifesaving" but more "mundane"... but I see it as a person who is willing to expose a personal mistake to provide a reminder to the rest of us.
But hey... I'm the new guy so maybe my opinion and $2 gets you a small coffee at Starbucks.


Di0  (A 68711)

Sep 3, 2013, 12:21 PM
Post #88 of 88 (509 views)
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Re: [vanessalh] I almost died today. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, for what is worth, yesterday I did misroute my chestwrap (jumping without having slept in 36 hours and having had anything to eat in 24 is probably not a good idea, the things peer pressure does to you when you show up at the DZ lol), by passing it on top of the clasp instead than inside. Making that mistake is easier than I honestly thought.
But as upset at me as I was, since I totally don't recall "doing" the mistake and it stayed that way for some time as I was walking around, I'm at least proud to say that I caught that myself because, after reading this topic, I now check the harness wraps much more carefully and many times. I'm still on student-status, so my coach would have noticed that with a 99.9% chance, but again: glad it wasn't necessary to get to that point. I started doing this "escape from harness test" as soon as I put it on and close my wraps, since I use student rental gear that can be set to a wrong size, I try to sneak my shoulders out of the harness, if I can with some effort, I ask a coach or instructor to tight up my rig, I don't care if they say it's tight enough.
If there is no way for me to push my shoulders out of it, I'm happy and I move on with my regular gear check. Yesterday, I noticed something "weird" as I was able to do so, and by looking around the harness, I noticed the problem.


(This post was edited by Di0 on Sep 3, 2013, 12:22 PM)



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