Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Premature from a helicopter

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Longbow1415  (D License)

Jul 8, 2013, 5:02 AM
Post #51 of 107 (2670 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Great job guys. Fortunately it looked like the canopy, lines and pilot chute got rapped around the skids. It would only have taken one line, bridle or pilot chute to hit the tail rotor and that would have been that. Emergency exit from a spinning and possibly tumbling helicopter with the main rotors still spinning does not bear thinking about, let alone the poor pilot with no options!! You did a superb job, acted on impulse and prevented an almost certain fatality, one at least!!


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 8, 2013, 6:06 AM
Post #52 of 107 (2610 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Personally, I think hook knifing any of the ball of shit would have been a terrible idea.

Of course with this being the internet and all, I should have been more specific with my hook knife reference to prevent useless rebuttals like this one. So here we go:
At approximately 2 mins into the video the canopy is, for all intents and purposes, contained. At this point the camera guy climbs out of the chopper and then spends over a minute un-successfully trying to un-wrap the pilot chute and bridle from the skid. You will note that this appears to be slow and difficult due the the PC continually inflating and escaping his grasp. It should be noted here that even if he did succeed in releasing the bridle he may have again lost the PC and had it extend to full bridle length, which could have been bad all on its own or even worse begun to pull the canopy back out of the chopper again.
Alternatively if they had contained the PC and then simply cut it from the end of the bridle they would have eliminated the PC from the equation and then been able to reel in the bridle like they did with the rest of the canopy. This could have easily taken place at approximately the 3 minute mark where the PC and the majority of the bridle are already inside the chopper (instead of taking the PC back outside to continue with the un-wrapping attempt). This would not have added any more mess to the equation and I feel that this would have been easier, faster and safer than some body standing outside the aircraft messing with shit for that long.
As I originally said to the OP though, I think they did a great job given the circumstances.


-ftp-

Jul 8, 2013, 7:35 AM
Post #53 of 107 (2517 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't like the fact that someone was yelling at the guy to cut away. If you dont know the gear, let the jumper make the call on how he wants to handle it. Like state earlier if the risers had released and been pulled away this could have been catastrophic for everybody on that helicopter.

It ended well which is great, the guy who pulled in the mess did a good job, I am sure some folks would have just bailed and saved themselves.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 8, 2013, 7:48 AM
Post #54 of 107 (2500 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Releasing the PC to continue it's desired path aft would be a risk I would not want to take.

With what he had, I think he did a fine job of getting it all out of the wind! Adrenaline is an awesome tool.


theMann  (B 111191)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:11 AM
Post #55 of 107 (2414 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

It was rental gear. On inspection the main cause was thought to be the closing loop was too long but i don't know who packed it. On the incident report the actions taken was kit retired


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #56 of 107 (2397 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theMann] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Kit retired??
For a simple closing loop?

Those ARE replaceable.


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:20 AM
Post #57 of 107 (2392 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Releasing the PC to continue it's desired path aft would be a risk I would not want to take.

You obviously didn't bother reading what I wrote or possibly failed to understand what I meant. At no point did I mention throwing the PC to the mercy of the wind. So here we go yet again:
The canopy was in the chopper, the PC was in the chopper, a single loop of bridle was looped around the skid. Cut the bridle in half = no more loop = you can now reel in both halves of the bridle. I will again re-iterate that the canopy was contained in the chopper, and the PC was also contained inside the chopper. There was no need for equipment to go back out the door.


(This post was edited by ChrisHoward on Jul 8, 2013, 9:45 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:53 AM
Post #58 of 107 (2332 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Tat:
a risk I would not want to take


Ron

Jul 8, 2013, 9:59 AM
Post #59 of 107 (2319 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

There was no reason for the jumper to leave the heli. In an ideal situation he should of disconnected his RSL, cutaway, and climb back in.

It was clear that there was a 'panic', the jumper didn't even have his visor down.

It all worked out, but it was not ideal.




rastapara  (Student)

Jul 8, 2013, 11:56 AM
Post #61 of 107 (2161 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking about this to... he had a lot of stuff to consider with little time to handle it... (and a guy with a rental, witch makes me think that he does not have all that much experience)

I was thinking, what would've happend if he did not cutaway, and sort of bungied of the heli and get stopped by the canopy being around the skids....

My guess is that would've made the situation much worse as the "snatch force"/"bungie force"/force of him accelerating to line strech would put the heli severly out of balance or in a stall... does anyone have a take on this?


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:14 PM
Post #62 of 107 (2060 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree; the heli was crowded with 4 people in the cabin as it was, having him climb back in would have given us much less space to sort it out. Also, there was the risk of the jumper losing his balance or getting dragged off the skid by the half inflated canopy while he was trying to undo his RSL.
If the canopy had ended up in the rotor I would not want him to be on the other end of it!


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:16 PM
Post #63 of 107 (2057 views)
Shortcut
Re: [rastapara] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

You are correct; the jumper had approximately 100 jumps and I believe this was his second jump in several months.


Ron

Jul 8, 2013, 1:28 PM
Post #64 of 107 (2041 views)
Shortcut
Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I disagree; the heli was crowded with 4 people in the cabin as it was

People who had both mains and reserves could have left. There was no reason two of the others on the heli could not have left out the other door and the jumper with only his reserve left could have help pull the gear back.

Quote:
Also, there was the risk of the jumper losing his balance or getting dragged off the skid by the half inflated canopy while he was trying to undo his RSL

Loosing his balance:
1. He could have left like he did anyway.
2. The person who climbed out on the strut could have fallen off after getting wrapped up in the trash.

So there was risk of someone falling off either way.

Quote:
If the canopy had ended up in the rotor I would not want him to be on the other end of it!

The rotor would have chopped the main LONG into confetti before it pulled him into it.

I don't agree that letting a guy basically static line himself off of his trash when he could of *easily* climbed back in. Also, I don't think that having a guy bail with only one canopy when there were others with two perfectly good canopies that could of left and made room for him.

In the end... No one died so it all worked out. That does not mean the BEST course of action was followed.

I don't think it is wise to have a 100 jump newbie static line himself onto his last parachute when there were other options. Not saying anyone did a BAD job, just that there might have been other options.


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:39 PM
Post #65 of 107 (2035 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah okay I see what you are saying and agree, it probably would have been better to do that.

Edited to add: After subsequently speaking to some Heli pilots, they reckoned that if the canopy had come into contact with the tail rotor it would potentially have taken the whole tail out.


(This post was edited by HUPRA on Jul 8, 2013, 1:48 PM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #66 of 107 (2030 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't get me wrong guys, a great outcome!!

Congradulations,

And on another note, a civil, thoughtfull conversation on all of the contingincies, hopefully you can reach some kind of consensus or have a plan for the next time this happens to some unfortunate person who certainly wasn't expecting this near- disaster...

This vid is going to become required viewing for machine pilots.

Word!

C


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 8, 2013, 4:30 PM
Post #67 of 107 (1909 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>In an ideal situation he should of disconnected his RSL, cutaway, and climb back in.

In general trying to climb back in with an open container is, IMO, a bad idea.

One of the biggest problems in any situation like this is that the jumper is simply not going to have a 100% understanding of the situation. He can't see behind him, he can't react faster than a canopy can deploy and he doesn't know the state of the other jumpers or what else is wrong with his rig. In most cases if deployment begins the best solution is to exit and allow the deployment to proceed as normally as possible; let the parachute do what it wants to do anyway. If you try to climb back in and your main finishes deploying you might be in trouble, and if you try to disconnect an RSL under pressure like that the odds of you dumping your reserve via the RSL are pretty high.

That being said every situation is different and I don't think there's any one perfect answer.


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

Jul 8, 2013, 5:58 PM
Post #68 of 107 (1854 views)
Shortcut
Re: [normiss] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I've noticed people often get even more complacent regarding pin checks on helicopter jumps. I always get a pin check before I board a helicopter and move around inside it with extreme caution.
I can easily imagine what can happen in a helicopter with this type of situation.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 9, 2013, 12:34 AM
Post #69 of 107 (1722 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hopnpopper0429] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

We have compulsary flight line checks in the UK so can guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 9, 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #70 of 107 (1721 views)
Shortcut
Re: [hopnpopper0429] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

We have compulsory flight line checks in the UK so can almost guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.


(This post was edited by CornishChris on Jul 9, 2013, 12:41 AM)


RMK

Jul 9, 2013, 12:52 AM
Post #71 of 107 (1713 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

The mantra "know your gear and & equipment" is often mentioned, but in the case of helicopters, theres a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation. Coincidentally, this same video is on a helicopter pilots forum and they likewise have little understanding of skydiving equipment functions.

A couple points to the thread replies:

- Those saying just cut that stuff away with your hook knife

No; it could have easily gone into the tail rotor and possibly taken out the whole empennage. There are numerous helicopter accidents where everyone aboard a helicopter has been killed due to something as small as a camera or clipboard going out the door and hitting the tail rotor.

- Those thinking the rotors would have just minced up the pc, bridle or canopy

No; as an example, I know of an instance where when one of my flight instructors was hover taxiing a R22 and a plastic shopping bag got lifting into the recirc and got stuck on the leading edge of the main rotor (made surprising amount of noise/vibration, he landed quickly). Our equipment is made to throw into 120mph air; its pretty strong and would no doubt break pitch links in tail rotor or main rotor.

- Those thinking they could jump of a helicopter if fully out of control

Guys, the main rotor is 35ft diameter and spinning about 450rpms; when it slows it also start deviating from its clean disc shape - do you really want to try to dodge that. Regarding loss of tail rotor, the US military previously ceased/changed their training on Loss of Tail Rotor (LTR) emergencies as it was killing more pilots in training than were ever killed in actual circumstances.

- The helicopter can always come to a complete stop.

No, there are often altitudes/weights/conditions where a helicopter is unable to perform an out-of-ground (OGE) hover. Also, smaller helicopters are not that stable performing OGE hovers with people/weight shifting about.


(This post was edited by RMK on Jul 9, 2013, 1:00 AM)


Krip  (Student)

Jul 9, 2013, 6:50 AM
Post #72 of 107 (1562 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CornishChris] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

CornishChris wrote:
We have compulsory flight line checks in the UK so can almost guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.

Hi CC

The OP stated that due to the country side he thought the location was of the incident was in England.Shocked

But from what I'm reading this did not happen in England.

Anyone know the country where this incident occurred?

Wherever this incident occurred Good job on saving the acft. I would have shit my pants and been gone as soon as that stuff startedCrazy.

Not because I was scared or anythingAngelic So that I could land with the meathead and make sure he was Ok. TongueSly


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 9, 2013, 8:22 AM
Post #73 of 107 (1520 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Krip] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

It was in Cambridgeshire in England. I'm not sure where the confustion is coming from?


Dittodogg  (B 32185)

Jul 9, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #74 of 107 (1425 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I have about 3,000 hours flying military helicopters, and about 150ish flying Bell 206 series. Coming to a hover with 4 people in the ship at that altitude is pretty much impossible due to the fact that the aircraft does not have enough power for a several thousand feet OGE (out of ground effect) hover. It may be possible if the aircraft had a decent headwind, but coming to a hover or exceeding rearward flight limits in a jetranger is not a great idea. Just my .02 I would have pooped my pants as the pilot or a jumper on that one. Great job to all involved in flushing that shit sandwich.


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 9, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #75 of 107 (1381 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Dittodogg] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Dittodogg wrote:
Coming to a hover with 4 people in the ship at that altitude is pretty much impossible due to the fact that the aircraft does not have enough power for a several thousand feet OGE (out of ground effect) hover. It may be possible if the aircraft had a decent headwind, but coming to a hover or exceeding rearward flight limits in a jetranger is not a great idea. Just my .02 I would have pooped my pants as the pilot or a jumper on that one. Great job to all involved in flushing that shit sandwich.

I'm not sure I agree with you... In this case, the helicopter is a LongRanger, not a JetRanger and with pretty much all versions if you have a reasonable amount of fuel hovering OGE is not a problem with 4 passengers. Even with a crappy JetRanger just a little bit of airspeed (less than 10kts) would be enough to keep altitude and people would not even notice you are going forward.

Also having a headwind is not really relevant when you are hovering relative to the wind. At altitude if you hover relative to the ground most of the time you'll have quite a bit of airspeed.

I too would have pooped my pants and kissed the ground after that incident!


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Incidents

 


Search for (options)