Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Premature from a helicopter

 

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HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 6, 2013, 10:58 AM
Post #26 of 107 (4541 views)
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

The pilot was told he had a half-inflated canopy out by one of the other jumpers.


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jul 6, 2013, 11:13 AM
Post #27 of 107 (4517 views)
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Re: [dgw] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

dgw wrote:
BigMikeH77 wrote:
JohnnyMarko wrote:
What, if anything, was communicated to the pilot?

I heard "Hey! Fuck! FUCKING GET THIS SHITHEAD DOWN!"

You misheard. He said, 'Get this shit in now'.

THAT makes more sense! Laugh


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 6, 2013, 2:45 PM
Post #28 of 107 (4259 views)
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Re: [HUPRA] [In reply to] Can't Post

Hupra: You did a good job mate. Well done. Good drills.

The restraints in the heli were pretty funky - cross elastic from either side to the other in order to keep them in - i.e. far left to far right for each seat belt, including middle (hard to explain). The actual seat belts were covered in bubble wrap. I did two jumps yesterday from this heli, including one where I was stood down due to the premature (load 6, load 5 issue)

The kid who had it was clearly upset when I spoke to him later. He, I believe had also had a bit of a break from jumping and I think this may have been his first in a while, although I'm not sure this would have been a major cause.

This helicopter (Long Ranger) had funky restraints and the drill was at 2k to remove then restow belts behind. There is almost no room to do this. I was in the door position for my second jump - you are 3/4 in and 1/4 out the bird. It's really tricky to keep steady whilst leaning forward to close the belt behind you while increasing your drag in the windstream. Personally I prefer leaving unclipped belts as they pose less of a snag risk but in this case they can damage the bird (paint...).

Someone in the thread earlier pressed for a pre jump check, which is fine in most cases. In this bird I checked myself, as everyone should on every jump, but there was no way anyone else could - just not enough room.

What can we take from this: a) Keep your shit together and check it all the time, especially when there are unusual circumstances or odd kit. b) Keep current. C) Maybe only load 4 in the machine to allow more room.

Blue ones. Was a fun day yesterday and well done everyone for not dying.


flaperon  (C 26751)

Jul 6, 2013, 6:23 PM
Post #29 of 107 (4083 views)
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Re: [CornishChris] [In reply to] Can't Post

A hook knife my not have been the best option here. Anything cut away probably would have ended up in the tail rotor.

A transition to hover (if performance allowed) may have helped the situation be shifting the relative wind to vertical.

Regardless, good job going with what you had to work with...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 6, 2013, 8:03 PM
Post #30 of 107 (3995 views)
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Re: [milehigheric] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>As a personal learning question - would you still jump in this situation?

In general - yes. If the jumper's body is past the plane of the door it is generally safer for everyone involved (not just the jumper) to have the jumper exit and allow the deployment to progress. Climbing back in almost never improves the situation and often makes it worse.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 6, 2013, 8:05 PM
Post #31 of 107 (3991 views)
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?

Out of ~30 helicopter jumps all of them carried some forward speed. At low speeds the sensation of "still air" exits is still there.


oldwomanc6

Jul 6, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #32 of 107 (3977 views)
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?

Out of ~30 helicopter jumps all of them carried some forward speed. At low speeds the sensation of "still air" exits is still there.

And to add to this, even on "hovering" jumps, there is still a lot of turbulence, and plenty of "wind." The rotors whip the air up quite splendidly.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 6, 2013, 10:29 PM
Post #33 of 107 (3868 views)
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Generally a good plan but I'm not so sure it applies to helicopters...

Having worked on them and hearing first-hand account stories - the most vulnerable component when jumping out of a helo is the tail rotor. I've even heard of a t-shirt getting out the door and taking down the whole ship.

Maybe an experienced Helicopter Pilot can give their opinion.


jono  (C 298258)

Jul 7, 2013, 3:02 AM
Post #34 of 107 (3752 views)
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Re: [oldwomanc6] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

oldwomanc6 wrote:
billvon wrote:
>Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?

Out of ~30 helicopter jumps all of them carried some forward speed. At low speeds the sensation of "still air" exits is still there.

And to add to this, even on "hovering" jumps, there is still a lot of turbulence, and plenty of "wind." The rotors whip the air up quite splendidly.

Still curious if flying backwards might have made things easier/safer whilst trying to get the canopy and PC back in to get it away from the tail given that it is an option in a heli?? Just seemed like the whole time the ship was moving forward.
Would love to hear from a heli pilot.


Krip  (Student)

Jul 7, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #35 of 107 (3585 views)
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Quote:
Would love to hear from a heli pilot.

Without this this critical piece of info the discussion of what a chopper can and can't do is what it is.Unsure


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 7, 2013, 9:05 AM
Post #36 of 107 (3496 views)
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Re: [Krip] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder, if the jumper had been more aware, could he have exited to the inside of the skid and had a "normal" deployment?


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 9:36 AM
Post #37 of 107 (3459 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

It seemed like an awfully long time until the helo began to descend. I wonder at what point the pilot was clued into what was going on back there? As Bill mentioned earlier, this could have ended very badly.

Nice job of saving that guys gear...did the rest of you get to jump??


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #38 of 107 (3457 views)
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Re: [Krip] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Hovering or going backwards could have been possible, but remember that even while hovering there's still a lot of wind because of the downwash. Also that wind is more turbulent than in flight.

Also, the main rotor blades and pitch links/swash plate are just over your head and are as or more important as the tail rotor.

I think just keeping a very slow forward speed is the best.

Something else people often don't realize is that when at altitude, without outside references, it is very hard for the pilot to know if he is hovering or slowly moving fwd/backwards. It is often just easier and stable to have a small amount of fwd speed.

Edit: Just watched the video again, and yeah, the pilot was going pretty fast at some points, he could have slowed down a lot. In his defence, LongRangers are really not the best machines for heli jumps. The pilot can't really see the passengers in the back, very cramped,no sliding door, etc.

Also, the jumpers did good by not cutting the lines like some people suggested! Where do you think the canopy would have gone?! Crazy


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jul 7, 2013, 9:57 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 7, 2013, 11:53 AM
Post #39 of 107 (3319 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

rmarshall234 wrote:
It seemed like an awfully long time until the helo began to descend. I wonder at what point the pilot was clued into what was going on back there? As Bill mentioned earlier, this could have ended very badly.
Good point here. In an emergency, someone please think to go forward and share information with the pilot. WinkSmile


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 7, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #40 of 107 (3258 views)
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Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I think hook knifing any of the ball of shit would have been a terrible idea.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #41 of 107 (3225 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>when at altitude, without outside references, it is very hard for the pilot to know if he is hovering or slowly >moving fwd/backwards.

In my first flight in an A-Star the pilot flew backwards and I watched the Airspeed indicator show about 40kts (or mph) ...negative.

Good point about the main rotor blades and assembly. I would even argue that they are more important than the tail rotor. However, not nearly as fragile and the downwash should drive anything away from them. Forward speed on the other hand drives things toward the tail rotor.

Helicopters are a whole different animal than the fixed wing stuff we are accustomed to jumping out of. For example... if one is interested they can research Translational Lift. And to discover how one can really ruin their day if they are unaware of such a thing..check out Dynamic Rollover. I know just enough about helicopters be dangerous so I'm going to quit talking now.


piisfish

Jul 7, 2013, 1:06 PM
Post #42 of 107 (3209 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
Good point here. In an emergency, someone please think to go forward and share information with the pilot. WinkSmile
I think it was done at the 3rd fuck : "tell the fucking pilot..." or something similar


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #43 of 107 (3173 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

rmarshall234 wrote:

Good point about the main rotor blades and assembly. I would even argue that they are more important than the tail rotor. However, not nearly as fragile and the downwash should drive anything away from them. Forward speed on the other hand drives things toward the tail rotor.

Vortex from the blades don't necessarily drive things away from them; very often it's just the opposite, specially hovering. What gets pushed down and out comes back on top of the blades.

Also, even without breaking anything, a canopy stuck on a blade or in the pitch links/swash plate could render the helicopter uncontrollable. I still think the best would be to keep a little forward speed.


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jul 7, 2013, 1:41 PM)


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 1:49 PM
Post #44 of 107 (3157 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>Vortex from the blades don't necessarily drive things away from them; very often it's just the opposite, >specially hovering. What gets pushed down and out comes back on top of the blades.

Yep. You just confirmed my final point. Take care.


cutter29  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:18 PM
Post #45 of 107 (3112 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

rmarshall234 wrote:
>when at altitude, without outside references, it is very hard for the pilot to know if he is hovering or slowly >moving fwd/backwards.

In my first flight in an A-Star the pilot flew backwards and I watched the Airspeed indicator show about 40kts (or mph) ...negative.

Good point about the main rotor blades and assembly. I would even argue that they are more important than the tail rotor. However, not nearly as fragile and the downwash should drive anything away from them. Forward speed on the other hand drives things toward the tail rotor.

Helicopters are a whole different animal than the fixed wing stuff we are accustomed to jumping out of. For example... if one is interested they can research Translational Lift. And to discover how one can really ruin their day if they are unaware of such a thing..check out Dynamic Rollover. I know just enough about helicopters be dangerous so I'm going to quit talking now.

Please explain this. In 3k+ plus hours of flying helicopters (900 AStar) I can't figure out how this is possible. Maybe you mean the ground speed on the GPS? Either way 40kts is extremely fast backwards and at the limits of the machine.

There is not much the pilot could've done to help. Hovering is going to add swirling winds making it harder to untangle. I would've started a slow shallow decent with minimal forward airspeed (20kts-ish)
Great job by the pilot and jumpers recovering the gear.


(This post was edited by cutter29 on Jul 7, 2013, 2:19 PM)




grimmie  (D 18890)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #47 of 107 (3059 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a look at the back wall of the Jet Ranger. The seat backs have been removed and the Velcro tape is across the back. It is very easy to sit down with the rig on and scrape the back, thus popping the pin.
This should be an example to everyone jumping out of anything.
I have seen see people sit like joe cool on the back bench of the otter and launch their reserve into the open well.
We need to always protect our closing flaps on main and reserves getting into, riding in and getting out of our flying machines.


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:57 PM
Post #48 of 107 (3052 views)
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Re: [cutter29] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

cutter29 wrote:
rmarshall234 wrote:
In my first flight in an A-Star the pilot flew backwards and I watched the Airspeed indicator show about 40kts (or mph) ...negative.
.

Please explain this. In 3k+ plus hours of flying helicopters (900 AStar) I can't figure out how this is possible. Maybe you mean the ground speed on the GPS? Either way 40kts is extremely fast backwards and at the limits of the machine.

As soon as you start going backwards the needle on the airspeed indicator will move erraticly, sometimes going in the negative. It doesn't mean you're going at the speed indicated, it's just the changes of pression around the pitot tube. And I agree, 40kts backwards is pretty fast, but the A-star can go much faster than that. The limiting factor is the compressor stalls at around 80kts


sky12345

Jul 7, 2013, 3:11 PM
Post #49 of 107 (3024 views)
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Re: [cutter29] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

hey heli plot

what would happen if instead of entanglement with teh skid, the canopy would just fully deploy? would the heli just fall out the sky because the canopy is blocking the downwash and pulling heli down?


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 5:17 PM
Post #50 of 107 (2907 views)
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Re: [cutter29] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>Maybe you mean the ground speed on the GPS?

Nope, it was the A/S indicator. When it happened I pointed to the gauge and the pilot explained it to me this way:

When the airflow reverses and instead of it being ram air into the tube, it flows from back to front causing a negative pressure at the opening and driving the needle backwards. I'm certain it's not calibrated for this so I won't argue about the speed, but it certainly happened. The pilot I might add was Ivor Shear who often gets the call from Hollywood when they need some filming done.

It impressed the hell out of me and as a pilot and A&P, makes sense. Sorry to all about the thread drift.


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