Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Premature from a helicopter

 


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Jul 5, 2013, 1:33 PM
Post #1 of 107 (12481 views)
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Premature from a helicopter Can't Post

See it before it disappears Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZnwEC2NcEg

Looks to be in the UK to me and I know there has been helicopter jumps here today.

Rig has adjustors on the Main Lift Web. I wonder if it is rental gear?


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 5, 2013, 2:27 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn!

I was expecting the PC to snatch right out of his hands and head straight to the tail rotor!
ShockedShockedShocked


mr2mk1g  (C 103449)

Jul 5, 2013, 2:48 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow.

Well done the guy with the camera! Spot on action frankly. George Medal? Could have got really nasty really quick.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 5, 2013, 2:56 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>See it before it disappears

The person on the inside seems to be trying to pull the jumper's main risers off his rig before he exits. This might have ended badly since the rig had an RSL. Fortunately, the RSL was not completely extracted before the jumper exits, although the riser does release.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Jul 5, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

^ I was thinking the same, pretty scary. Glad it all worked out. I'm so used to planes that it seemed scarier maybe.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Jul 5, 2013, 7:07 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

  Ultimately nobody got hurt, so good on them. My first thought is where were the hook knives?


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 5, 2013, 7:23 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

What if he was last out?

C


cube  (D License)

Jul 5, 2013, 8:18 PM
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow. Good job from the camera guy at solving the problem and acting fast!


grue  (D License)

Jul 5, 2013, 8:18 PM
Post #9 of 107 (11605 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

How many times do people have to be told to protect their pins, and keep the closing loop adjusted.

Jesus.


milehigheric  (C License)

Jul 5, 2013, 9:49 PM
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Re: [grue] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Lucky he grabbed the PC before the canopy extracted. I'm not sure how far the tail is from the door but I would assume with full line stretch it would make it, not to mention wraping the jumper in the step.

As a personal learning question - would you still jump in this situation? Disconnect RSL and get the main off your back obviously, but would it not have been safer (and cheaper) to climb back in?


format  (B 15348)

Jul 6, 2013, 12:06 AM
Post #11 of 107 (11305 views)
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Re: [milehigheric] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Luckiest part seem to be heli's low horizontal speed.. and rotor downpush helps too.
If they were in airplane, even slow one, things would be much harder I recon


jono  (C 298258)

Jul 6, 2013, 3:04 AM
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Re: [grue] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

grue wrote:
How many times do people have to be told to protect their pins, and keep the closing loop adjusted.

Jesus.

I hear what you are saying but I reckon it was a premature PC deployment. You get a glimpse of the red bridle trailing before you see the d bag. Dude was not very focused. Either way a gear check before climb out would have prevented this and he still had his visor up. Crazy


(This post was edited by jono on Jul 6, 2013, 3:41 AM)


jono  (C 298258)

Jul 6, 2013, 3:12 AM
Post #13 of 107 (11167 views)
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Re: [format] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
Luckiest part seem to be heli's low horizontal speed.. and rotor downpush helps too.
If they were in airplane, even slow one, things would be much harder I recon

Never been in a heli let alone had the pleasure of jumping from one.Frown
Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?? Would it have made any difference in trying to haul that mess in if the pilot held it stationary or even went backwards??


grue  (D License)

Jul 6, 2013, 3:21 AM
Post #14 of 107 (11149 views)
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

jono wrote:
grue wrote:
How many times do people have to be told to protect their pins, and keep the closing loop adjusted.

Jesus.

I hear what you are saying but I reckon it was a premature PC deployment. You get a glimpse of the red bridle trailing before you see the d bag. Dude was not very focused. A gear check before climb out would have prevented this and he still had his visor up.




Yeah you're right


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 6, 2013, 6:16 AM
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

jono wrote:
I hear what you are saying but I reckon it was a premature PC deployment.

I initially thought the same but after watching it again it looks like you can see the DBag most of the way to line stretch before the PC appears, so either the jumper deployed the PC after the out of sequence opening or the force of the horseshoe pulled the PC from the BOC.
I think that if the PC deployed first it would A) be visible in the first screen shot of the DBag and B) it would have had that DBag off the canopy much faster than what is apparent in the video.

Edit to Add: Around 3-4 seconds you can just make out the black DBag hanging below the skid (it is blocked from view most of the time by the skid) and the red bridle stretched tight back towards the jumper. It's nearly another 5 seconds before the PC appears in the video.


(This post was edited by ChrisHoward on Jul 6, 2013, 6:40 AM)


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 6, 2013, 7:01 AM
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>See it before it disappears

The person on the inside seems to be trying to pull the jumper's main risers off his rig before he exits. This might have ended badly since the rig had an RSL. Fortunately, the RSL was not completely extracted before the jumper exits, although the riser does release.

I was trying to get a hold of the riser before he went as I was scared the detached risers would be heading backwards towards the tail rotor. In hindsight I maybe should have waited for him to detach his RSL but didnt really fancy having him standing out on the skid trying to undo it.


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 6, 2013, 7:03 AM
Post #17 of 107 (10799 views)
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Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

D-bag came out first; pin may have been knocked out when he tried to do his seatbelt up behind his rig before getting out.


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 6, 2013, 7:32 AM
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Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

HUPRA wrote:
I was trying to get a hold of the riser before he went as I was scared the detached risers would be heading backwards towards the tail rotor. In hindsight I maybe should have waited for him to detach his RSL but didnt really fancy having him standing out on the skid trying to undo it.

I think you did a reasonable job given the circumstances. Sure there may have been a better way of doing things but that's hindsight for ya. Kudos for continuing to think and attempting to work through a scary situation. I would have bailed out as soon as I seen his DBag Smile

P.S. However, What height did you finally climb back into the chopper? That looked somewhat low.
P.P.S. I would have also hooked knifed some of that shit.


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 6, 2013, 7:35 AM
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Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

HUPRA wrote:
D-bag came out first; pin may have been knocked out when he tried to do his seatbelt up behind his rig before getting out.

If the loop is too long then sitting with your rig against the back of the chair could also compress the main container enough for the pin to simply fall out.


Skydog0223  (D 19276)

Jul 6, 2013, 7:42 AM
Post #20 of 107 (10724 views)
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

When I saw the RSL it made my stomach churn, I saw the bag deploy on climbout, dislodged pin/poor packjob/loose closing loop? Personally I would've jumped with my hand on the cutaway knowing I had an RSL then pulled, his reserve could've wrapped around the skid or entangled with the main or... Anyaway it all worked out in the end but just goes to show no matter how safe we are there will always be the unexpected to test us!


JohnnyMarko

Jul 6, 2013, 8:14 AM
Post #21 of 107 (10656 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

What, if anything, was communicated to the pilot?


Bodhisattva420  (B 35178)

Jul 6, 2013, 9:11 AM
Post #22 of 107 (10529 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they did a great job! Might want to make a tighter closing loop in the future tho :\


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jul 6, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #23 of 107 (10487 views)
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnnyMarko wrote:
What, if anything, was communicated to the pilot?

I heard "Hey! Fuck! FUCKING GET THIS SHITHEAD DOWN!"


dgw  (C License)

Jul 6, 2013, 10:47 AM
Post #24 of 107 (10387 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

BigMikeH77 wrote:
JohnnyMarko wrote:
What, if anything, was communicated to the pilot?

I heard "Hey! Fuck! FUCKING GET THIS SHITHEAD DOWN!"

You misheard. He said, 'Get this shit in now'.


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 6, 2013, 10:51 AM
Post #25 of 107 (10387 views)
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Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisHoward wrote:
HUPRA wrote:
I was trying to get a hold of the riser before he went as I was scared the detached risers would be heading backwards towards the tail rotor. In hindsight I maybe should have waited for him to detach his RSL but didnt really fancy having him standing out on the skid trying to undo it.

I think you did a reasonable job given the circumstances. Sure there may have been a better way of doing things but that's hindsight for ya. Kudos for continuing to think and attempting to work through a scary situation. I would have bailed out as soon as I seen his DBag Smile

P.S. However, What height did you finally climb back into the chopper? That looked somewhat low.
P.P.S. I would have also hooked knifed some of that shit.

I got back in just above 2000ft, I did consider cutting the last part but as it seemed pretty secure I left it.


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 6, 2013, 10:58 AM
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Re: [JohnnyMarko] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

The pilot was told he had a half-inflated canopy out by one of the other jumpers.


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jul 6, 2013, 11:13 AM
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Re: [dgw] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

dgw wrote:
BigMikeH77 wrote:
JohnnyMarko wrote:
What, if anything, was communicated to the pilot?

I heard "Hey! Fuck! FUCKING GET THIS SHITHEAD DOWN!"

You misheard. He said, 'Get this shit in now'.

THAT makes more sense! Laugh


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 6, 2013, 2:45 PM
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Hupra: You did a good job mate. Well done. Good drills.

The restraints in the heli were pretty funky - cross elastic from either side to the other in order to keep them in - i.e. far left to far right for each seat belt, including middle (hard to explain). The actual seat belts were covered in bubble wrap. I did two jumps yesterday from this heli, including one where I was stood down due to the premature (load 6, load 5 issue)

The kid who had it was clearly upset when I spoke to him later. He, I believe had also had a bit of a break from jumping and I think this may have been his first in a while, although I'm not sure this would have been a major cause.

This helicopter (Long Ranger) had funky restraints and the drill was at 2k to remove then restow belts behind. There is almost no room to do this. I was in the door position for my second jump - you are 3/4 in and 1/4 out the bird. It's really tricky to keep steady whilst leaning forward to close the belt behind you while increasing your drag in the windstream. Personally I prefer leaving unclipped belts as they pose less of a snag risk but in this case they can damage the bird (paint...).

Someone in the thread earlier pressed for a pre jump check, which is fine in most cases. In this bird I checked myself, as everyone should on every jump, but there was no way anyone else could - just not enough room.

What can we take from this: a) Keep your shit together and check it all the time, especially when there are unusual circumstances or odd kit. b) Keep current. C) Maybe only load 4 in the machine to allow more room.

Blue ones. Was a fun day yesterday and well done everyone for not dying.


flaperon  (C 26751)

Jul 6, 2013, 6:23 PM
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Re: [CornishChris] [In reply to] Can't Post

A hook knife my not have been the best option here. Anything cut away probably would have ended up in the tail rotor.

A transition to hover (if performance allowed) may have helped the situation be shifting the relative wind to vertical.

Regardless, good job going with what you had to work with...


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 6, 2013, 8:03 PM
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Re: [milehigheric] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>As a personal learning question - would you still jump in this situation?

In general - yes. If the jumper's body is past the plane of the door it is generally safer for everyone involved (not just the jumper) to have the jumper exit and allow the deployment to progress. Climbing back in almost never improves the situation and often makes it worse.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jul 6, 2013, 8:05 PM
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?

Out of ~30 helicopter jumps all of them carried some forward speed. At low speeds the sensation of "still air" exits is still there.


oldwomanc6

Jul 6, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #32 of 107 (3919 views)
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?

Out of ~30 helicopter jumps all of them carried some forward speed. At low speeds the sensation of "still air" exits is still there.

And to add to this, even on "hovering" jumps, there is still a lot of turbulence, and plenty of "wind." The rotors whip the air up quite splendidly.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 6, 2013, 10:29 PM
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Re: [billvon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Generally a good plan but I'm not so sure it applies to helicopters...

Having worked on them and hearing first-hand account stories - the most vulnerable component when jumping out of a helo is the tail rotor. I've even heard of a t-shirt getting out the door and taking down the whole ship.

Maybe an experienced Helicopter Pilot can give their opinion.


jono  (C 298258)

Jul 7, 2013, 3:02 AM
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Re: [oldwomanc6] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

oldwomanc6 wrote:
billvon wrote:
>Is it normal for them to have any forward speed on "jump run"?

Out of ~30 helicopter jumps all of them carried some forward speed. At low speeds the sensation of "still air" exits is still there.

And to add to this, even on "hovering" jumps, there is still a lot of turbulence, and plenty of "wind." The rotors whip the air up quite splendidly.

Still curious if flying backwards might have made things easier/safer whilst trying to get the canopy and PC back in to get it away from the tail given that it is an option in a heli?? Just seemed like the whole time the ship was moving forward.
Would love to hear from a heli pilot.


Krip  (Student)

Jul 7, 2013, 6:59 AM
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Quote:
Would love to hear from a heli pilot.

Without this this critical piece of info the discussion of what a chopper can and can't do is what it is.Unsure


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 7, 2013, 9:05 AM
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Re: [Krip] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder, if the jumper had been more aware, could he have exited to the inside of the skid and had a "normal" deployment?


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 9:36 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

It seemed like an awfully long time until the helo began to descend. I wonder at what point the pilot was clued into what was going on back there? As Bill mentioned earlier, this could have ended very badly.

Nice job of saving that guys gear...did the rest of you get to jump??


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 9:39 AM
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Re: [Krip] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Hovering or going backwards could have been possible, but remember that even while hovering there's still a lot of wind because of the downwash. Also that wind is more turbulent than in flight.

Also, the main rotor blades and pitch links/swash plate are just over your head and are as or more important as the tail rotor.

I think just keeping a very slow forward speed is the best.

Something else people often don't realize is that when at altitude, without outside references, it is very hard for the pilot to know if he is hovering or slowly moving fwd/backwards. It is often just easier and stable to have a small amount of fwd speed.

Edit: Just watched the video again, and yeah, the pilot was going pretty fast at some points, he could have slowed down a lot. In his defence, LongRangers are really not the best machines for heli jumps. The pilot can't really see the passengers in the back, very cramped,no sliding door, etc.

Also, the jumpers did good by not cutting the lines like some people suggested! Where do you think the canopy would have gone?! Crazy


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jul 7, 2013, 9:57 AM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jul 7, 2013, 11:53 AM
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Re: [rmarshall234] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

rmarshall234 wrote:
It seemed like an awfully long time until the helo began to descend. I wonder at what point the pilot was clued into what was going on back there? As Bill mentioned earlier, this could have ended very badly.
Good point here. In an emergency, someone please think to go forward and share information with the pilot. WinkSmile


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 7, 2013, 12:44 PM
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Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I think hook knifing any of the ball of shit would have been a terrible idea.


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 1:00 PM
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Re: [vitriol] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>when at altitude, without outside references, it is very hard for the pilot to know if he is hovering or slowly >moving fwd/backwards.

In my first flight in an A-Star the pilot flew backwards and I watched the Airspeed indicator show about 40kts (or mph) ...negative.

Good point about the main rotor blades and assembly. I would even argue that they are more important than the tail rotor. However, not nearly as fragile and the downwash should drive anything away from them. Forward speed on the other hand drives things toward the tail rotor.

Helicopters are a whole different animal than the fixed wing stuff we are accustomed to jumping out of. For example... if one is interested they can research Translational Lift. And to discover how one can really ruin their day if they are unaware of such a thing..check out Dynamic Rollover. I know just enough about helicopters be dangerous so I'm going to quit talking now.


piisfish

Jul 7, 2013, 1:06 PM
Post #42 of 107 (3151 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
Good point here. In an emergency, someone please think to go forward and share information with the pilot. WinkSmile
I think it was done at the 3rd fuck : "tell the fucking pilot..." or something similar


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #43 of 107 (3115 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

rmarshall234 wrote:

Good point about the main rotor blades and assembly. I would even argue that they are more important than the tail rotor. However, not nearly as fragile and the downwash should drive anything away from them. Forward speed on the other hand drives things toward the tail rotor.

Vortex from the blades don't necessarily drive things away from them; very often it's just the opposite, specially hovering. What gets pushed down and out comes back on top of the blades.

Also, even without breaking anything, a canopy stuck on a blade or in the pitch links/swash plate could render the helicopter uncontrollable. I still think the best would be to keep a little forward speed.


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jul 7, 2013, 1:41 PM)


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 1:49 PM
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Re: [vitriol] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>Vortex from the blades don't necessarily drive things away from them; very often it's just the opposite, >specially hovering. What gets pushed down and out comes back on top of the blades.

Yep. You just confirmed my final point. Take care.


cutter29  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:18 PM
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Re: [rmarshall234] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

rmarshall234 wrote:
>when at altitude, without outside references, it is very hard for the pilot to know if he is hovering or slowly >moving fwd/backwards.

In my first flight in an A-Star the pilot flew backwards and I watched the Airspeed indicator show about 40kts (or mph) ...negative.

Good point about the main rotor blades and assembly. I would even argue that they are more important than the tail rotor. However, not nearly as fragile and the downwash should drive anything away from them. Forward speed on the other hand drives things toward the tail rotor.

Helicopters are a whole different animal than the fixed wing stuff we are accustomed to jumping out of. For example... if one is interested they can research Translational Lift. And to discover how one can really ruin their day if they are unaware of such a thing..check out Dynamic Rollover. I know just enough about helicopters be dangerous so I'm going to quit talking now.

Please explain this. In 3k+ plus hours of flying helicopters (900 AStar) I can't figure out how this is possible. Maybe you mean the ground speed on the GPS? Either way 40kts is extremely fast backwards and at the limits of the machine.

There is not much the pilot could've done to help. Hovering is going to add swirling winds making it harder to untangle. I would've started a slow shallow decent with minimal forward airspeed (20kts-ish)
Great job by the pilot and jumpers recovering the gear.


(This post was edited by cutter29 on Jul 7, 2013, 2:19 PM)




grimmie  (D 18890)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:51 PM
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Re: [ChrisD] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Take a look at the back wall of the Jet Ranger. The seat backs have been removed and the Velcro tape is across the back. It is very easy to sit down with the rig on and scrape the back, thus popping the pin.
This should be an example to everyone jumping out of anything.
I have seen see people sit like joe cool on the back bench of the otter and launch their reserve into the open well.
We need to always protect our closing flaps on main and reserves getting into, riding in and getting out of our flying machines.


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 7, 2013, 2:57 PM
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Re: [cutter29] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

cutter29 wrote:
rmarshall234 wrote:
In my first flight in an A-Star the pilot flew backwards and I watched the Airspeed indicator show about 40kts (or mph) ...negative.
.

Please explain this. In 3k+ plus hours of flying helicopters (900 AStar) I can't figure out how this is possible. Maybe you mean the ground speed on the GPS? Either way 40kts is extremely fast backwards and at the limits of the machine.

As soon as you start going backwards the needle on the airspeed indicator will move erraticly, sometimes going in the negative. It doesn't mean you're going at the speed indicated, it's just the changes of pression around the pitot tube. And I agree, 40kts backwards is pretty fast, but the A-star can go much faster than that. The limiting factor is the compressor stalls at around 80kts


sky12345

Jul 7, 2013, 3:11 PM
Post #49 of 107 (2966 views)
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Re: [cutter29] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

hey heli plot

what would happen if instead of entanglement with teh skid, the canopy would just fully deploy? would the heli just fall out the sky because the canopy is blocking the downwash and pulling heli down?


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Jul 7, 2013, 5:17 PM
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Re: [cutter29] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>Maybe you mean the ground speed on the GPS?

Nope, it was the A/S indicator. When it happened I pointed to the gauge and the pilot explained it to me this way:

When the airflow reverses and instead of it being ram air into the tube, it flows from back to front causing a negative pressure at the opening and driving the needle backwards. I'm certain it's not calibrated for this so I won't argue about the speed, but it certainly happened. The pilot I might add was Ivor Shear who often gets the call from Hollywood when they need some filming done.

It impressed the hell out of me and as a pilot and A&P, makes sense. Sorry to all about the thread drift.


Longbow1415  (D License)

Jul 8, 2013, 5:02 AM
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Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Great job guys. Fortunately it looked like the canopy, lines and pilot chute got rapped around the skids. It would only have taken one line, bridle or pilot chute to hit the tail rotor and that would have been that. Emergency exit from a spinning and possibly tumbling helicopter with the main rotors still spinning does not bear thinking about, let alone the poor pilot with no options!! You did a superb job, acted on impulse and prevented an almost certain fatality, one at least!!


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 8, 2013, 6:06 AM
Post #52 of 107 (2581 views)
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Re: [normiss] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Personally, I think hook knifing any of the ball of shit would have been a terrible idea.

Of course with this being the internet and all, I should have been more specific with my hook knife reference to prevent useless rebuttals like this one. So here we go:
At approximately 2 mins into the video the canopy is, for all intents and purposes, contained. At this point the camera guy climbs out of the chopper and then spends over a minute un-successfully trying to un-wrap the pilot chute and bridle from the skid. You will note that this appears to be slow and difficult due the the PC continually inflating and escaping his grasp. It should be noted here that even if he did succeed in releasing the bridle he may have again lost the PC and had it extend to full bridle length, which could have been bad all on its own or even worse begun to pull the canopy back out of the chopper again.
Alternatively if they had contained the PC and then simply cut it from the end of the bridle they would have eliminated the PC from the equation and then been able to reel in the bridle like they did with the rest of the canopy. This could have easily taken place at approximately the 3 minute mark where the PC and the majority of the bridle are already inside the chopper (instead of taking the PC back outside to continue with the un-wrapping attempt). This would not have added any more mess to the equation and I feel that this would have been easier, faster and safer than some body standing outside the aircraft messing with shit for that long.
As I originally said to the OP though, I think they did a great job given the circumstances.


-ftp-

Jul 8, 2013, 7:35 AM
Post #53 of 107 (2488 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't like the fact that someone was yelling at the guy to cut away. If you dont know the gear, let the jumper make the call on how he wants to handle it. Like state earlier if the risers had released and been pulled away this could have been catastrophic for everybody on that helicopter.

It ended well which is great, the guy who pulled in the mess did a good job, I am sure some folks would have just bailed and saved themselves.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 8, 2013, 7:48 AM
Post #54 of 107 (2471 views)
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Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Releasing the PC to continue it's desired path aft would be a risk I would not want to take.

With what he had, I think he did a fine job of getting it all out of the wind! Adrenaline is an awesome tool.


theMann  (B 111191)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:11 AM
Post #55 of 107 (2385 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

It was rental gear. On inspection the main cause was thought to be the closing loop was too long but i don't know who packed it. On the incident report the actions taken was kit retired


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #56 of 107 (2368 views)
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Re: [theMann] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Kit retired??
For a simple closing loop?

Those ARE replaceable.


ChrisHoward  (D 28490)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:20 AM
Post #57 of 107 (2363 views)
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Re: [normiss] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Releasing the PC to continue it's desired path aft would be a risk I would not want to take.

You obviously didn't bother reading what I wrote or possibly failed to understand what I meant. At no point did I mention throwing the PC to the mercy of the wind. So here we go yet again:
The canopy was in the chopper, the PC was in the chopper, a single loop of bridle was looped around the skid. Cut the bridle in half = no more loop = you can now reel in both halves of the bridle. I will again re-iterate that the canopy was contained in the chopper, and the PC was also contained inside the chopper. There was no need for equipment to go back out the door.


(This post was edited by ChrisHoward on Jul 8, 2013, 9:45 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 8, 2013, 9:53 AM
Post #58 of 107 (2303 views)
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Re: [ChrisHoward] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Tat:
a risk I would not want to take


Ron

Jul 8, 2013, 9:59 AM
Post #59 of 107 (2290 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

There was no reason for the jumper to leave the heli. In an ideal situation he should of disconnected his RSL, cutaway, and climb back in.

It was clear that there was a 'panic', the jumper didn't even have his visor down.

It all worked out, but it was not ideal.




rastapara  (Student)

Jul 8, 2013, 11:56 AM
Post #61 of 107 (2132 views)
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Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking about this to... he had a lot of stuff to consider with little time to handle it... (and a guy with a rental, witch makes me think that he does not have all that much experience)

I was thinking, what would've happend if he did not cutaway, and sort of bungied of the heli and get stopped by the canopy being around the skids....

My guess is that would've made the situation much worse as the "snatch force"/"bungie force"/force of him accelerating to line strech would put the heli severly out of balance or in a stall... does anyone have a take on this?


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:14 PM
Post #62 of 107 (2031 views)
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Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I disagree; the heli was crowded with 4 people in the cabin as it was, having him climb back in would have given us much less space to sort it out. Also, there was the risk of the jumper losing his balance or getting dragged off the skid by the half inflated canopy while he was trying to undo his RSL.
If the canopy had ended up in the rotor I would not want him to be on the other end of it!


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:16 PM
Post #63 of 107 (2028 views)
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Re: [rastapara] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

You are correct; the jumper had approximately 100 jumps and I believe this was his second jump in several months.


Ron

Jul 8, 2013, 1:28 PM
Post #64 of 107 (2012 views)
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Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I disagree; the heli was crowded with 4 people in the cabin as it was

People who had both mains and reserves could have left. There was no reason two of the others on the heli could not have left out the other door and the jumper with only his reserve left could have help pull the gear back.

Quote:
Also, there was the risk of the jumper losing his balance or getting dragged off the skid by the half inflated canopy while he was trying to undo his RSL

Loosing his balance:
1. He could have left like he did anyway.
2. The person who climbed out on the strut could have fallen off after getting wrapped up in the trash.

So there was risk of someone falling off either way.

Quote:
If the canopy had ended up in the rotor I would not want him to be on the other end of it!

The rotor would have chopped the main LONG into confetti before it pulled him into it.

I don't agree that letting a guy basically static line himself off of his trash when he could of *easily* climbed back in. Also, I don't think that having a guy bail with only one canopy when there were others with two perfectly good canopies that could of left and made room for him.

In the end... No one died so it all worked out. That does not mean the BEST course of action was followed.

I don't think it is wise to have a 100 jump newbie static line himself onto his last parachute when there were other options. Not saying anyone did a BAD job, just that there might have been other options.


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:39 PM
Post #65 of 107 (2006 views)
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Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Ah okay I see what you are saying and agree, it probably would have been better to do that.

Edited to add: After subsequently speaking to some Heli pilots, they reckoned that if the canopy had come into contact with the tail rotor it would potentially have taken the whole tail out.


(This post was edited by HUPRA on Jul 8, 2013, 1:48 PM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 8, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #66 of 107 (2001 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't get me wrong guys, a great outcome!!

Congradulations,

And on another note, a civil, thoughtfull conversation on all of the contingincies, hopefully you can reach some kind of consensus or have a plan for the next time this happens to some unfortunate person who certainly wasn't expecting this near- disaster...

This vid is going to become required viewing for machine pilots.

Word!

C


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 8, 2013, 4:30 PM
Post #67 of 107 (1880 views)
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Re: [Ron] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

>In an ideal situation he should of disconnected his RSL, cutaway, and climb back in.

In general trying to climb back in with an open container is, IMO, a bad idea.

One of the biggest problems in any situation like this is that the jumper is simply not going to have a 100% understanding of the situation. He can't see behind him, he can't react faster than a canopy can deploy and he doesn't know the state of the other jumpers or what else is wrong with his rig. In most cases if deployment begins the best solution is to exit and allow the deployment to proceed as normally as possible; let the parachute do what it wants to do anyway. If you try to climb back in and your main finishes deploying you might be in trouble, and if you try to disconnect an RSL under pressure like that the odds of you dumping your reserve via the RSL are pretty high.

That being said every situation is different and I don't think there's any one perfect answer.


hopnpopper0429  (C 36648)

Jul 8, 2013, 5:58 PM
Post #68 of 107 (1825 views)
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Re: [normiss] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I've noticed people often get even more complacent regarding pin checks on helicopter jumps. I always get a pin check before I board a helicopter and move around inside it with extreme caution.
I can easily imagine what can happen in a helicopter with this type of situation.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 9, 2013, 12:34 AM
Post #69 of 107 (1693 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

We have compulsary flight line checks in the UK so can guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

Jul 9, 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #70 of 107 (1692 views)
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Re: [hopnpopper0429] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

We have compulsory flight line checks in the UK so can almost guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.


(This post was edited by CornishChris on Jul 9, 2013, 12:41 AM)


RMK

Jul 9, 2013, 12:52 AM
Post #71 of 107 (1684 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

The mantra "know your gear and & equipment" is often mentioned, but in the case of helicopters, thereís a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation. Coincidentally, this same video is on a helicopter pilots forum and they likewise have little understanding of skydiving equipment functions.

A couple points to the thread replies:

- Those saying ďjust cut that stuff away with your hook knifeĒ

No; it could have easily gone into the tail rotor and possibly taken out the whole empennage. There are numerous helicopter accidents where everyone aboard a helicopter has been killed due to something as small as a camera or clipboard going out the door and hitting the tail rotor.

- Those thinking the rotors would have just minced up the pc, bridle or canopy

No; as an example, I know of an instance where when one of my flight instructors was hover taxiing a R22 and a plastic shopping bag got lifting into the recirc and got stuck on the leading edge of the main rotor (made surprising amount of noise/vibration, he landed quickly). Our equipment is made to throw into 120mph air; itís pretty strong and would no doubt break pitch links in tail rotor or main rotor.

- Those thinking they could jump of a helicopter if fully out of control

Guys, the main rotor is 35ft diameter and spinning about 450rpms; when it slows it also start deviating from its clean disc shape - do you really want to try to ďdodgeĒ that. Regarding loss of tail rotor, the US military previously ceased/changed their training on Loss of Tail Rotor (LTR) emergencies as it was killing more pilots in training than were ever killed in actual circumstances.

- The helicopter can always come to a complete stop.

No, there are often altitudes/weights/conditions where a helicopter is unable to perform an out-of-ground (OGE) hover. Also, smaller helicopters are not that stable performing OGE hovers with people/weight shifting about.


(This post was edited by RMK on Jul 9, 2013, 1:00 AM)


Krip  (Student)

Jul 9, 2013, 6:50 AM
Post #72 of 107 (1533 views)
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Re: [CornishChris] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

CornishChris wrote:
We have compulsory flight line checks in the UK so can almost guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.

Hi CC

The OP stated that due to the country side he thought the location was of the incident was in England.Shocked

But from what I'm reading this did not happen in England.

Anyone know the country where this incident occurred?

Wherever this incident occurred Good job on saving the acft. I would have shit my pants and been gone as soon as that stuff startedCrazy.

Not because I was scared or anythingAngelic So that I could land with the meathead and make sure he was Ok. TongueSly


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 9, 2013, 8:22 AM
Post #73 of 107 (1491 views)
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Re: [Krip] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

It was in Cambridgeshire in England. I'm not sure where the confustion is coming from?


Dittodogg  (B 32185)

Jul 9, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #74 of 107 (1396 views)
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Re: [jono] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I have about 3,000 hours flying military helicopters, and about 150ish flying Bell 206 series. Coming to a hover with 4 people in the ship at that altitude is pretty much impossible due to the fact that the aircraft does not have enough power for a several thousand feet OGE (out of ground effect) hover. It may be possible if the aircraft had a decent headwind, but coming to a hover or exceeding rearward flight limits in a jetranger is not a great idea. Just my .02 I would have pooped my pants as the pilot or a jumper on that one. Great job to all involved in flushing that shit sandwich.


vitriol  (C License)

Jul 9, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #75 of 107 (1352 views)
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Re: [Dittodogg] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Dittodogg wrote:
Coming to a hover with 4 people in the ship at that altitude is pretty much impossible due to the fact that the aircraft does not have enough power for a several thousand feet OGE (out of ground effect) hover. It may be possible if the aircraft had a decent headwind, but coming to a hover or exceeding rearward flight limits in a jetranger is not a great idea. Just my .02 I would have pooped my pants as the pilot or a jumper on that one. Great job to all involved in flushing that shit sandwich.

I'm not sure I agree with you... In this case, the helicopter is a LongRanger, not a JetRanger and with pretty much all versions if you have a reasonable amount of fuel hovering OGE is not a problem with 4 passengers. Even with a crappy JetRanger just a little bit of airspeed (less than 10kts) would be enough to keep altitude and people would not even notice you are going forward.

Also having a headwind is not really relevant when you are hovering relative to the wind. At altitude if you hover relative to the ground most of the time you'll have quite a bit of airspeed.

I too would have pooped my pants and kissed the ground after that incident!


yoink

Jul 9, 2013, 12:20 PM
Post #76 of 107 (4305 views)
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Re: [CornishChris] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

CornishChris wrote:
We have compulsary flight line checks in the UK so can guarantee he had a pin check prior to enplaning.

That's a good point. Most 'pin checks' are a visual only... many jumpers get upset if you start prodding at a pin to see how tight or loose it is, and in my view, that's the responsibility of the jumper / packer, not the person doing a pincheck.

Certainly when I gave a pincheck I was looking to see that the pin was fully seated and routed right.


(This post was edited by yoink on Jul 9, 2013, 12:23 PM)


Dobby1

Jul 9, 2013, 6:10 PM
Post #77 of 107 (4066 views)
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Re: Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Iím the jumper in this incident and would like to share my view on the events and my thought processes throughout. Itís my hope that sharing this information will provide a clearer picture of what I believed to be my available options and what options I didn't even consider as well as identifying any possible weaknesses in my knowledge that may also be present in other relatively low experience jumpers, no matter what the ultimate cause of the incident was.

This was my 72nd jump (jumped later that day and next so now at 75) and itís correct that before my 70th jump I had been on a break for around 8 months. The gear being used was rental equipment and Iím unaware of who packed it.

Before kitting up I performed all the usual checks, including a check on the pin. An important point here is that I didnít push the pin to gauge its tightness, although this makes sense after being taught about the importance of a tight closing loop, it wasnít something that really connected in my head until now nor was it something I have ever been taught to do. This was followed by a pin check before boarding (along with all the other checks) by another qualified individual however, the check was only visual once again.

Inside the helicopter was very cramped and being on the edge of the seat made me feel a little uneasy below 2k, I used my right foot to push lightly against the door to keep myself secure in my seat. I kept to little movement and am quite certain the pin wasnít subject to a knock when fastening or un-fastening my seat-belt, I donít dispute the possibility of the pin being knocked at a different time during ascent however.

Upon exit of the heli I felt what I thought at the time was a tap on my shoulder but I believe it was an effect of the risers receiving a tug. I turned around and heard ďWhat the fuckĒ at about the same time, seeing my canopy it took me a couple of seconds to realise what was happening and realising that I was actually seeing my main in the early stages of deployment. I sat there for a couple of more seconds trying to think what options existed and then was told ďcut it away, cut it away!Ē. I was actually aware of my RSL but knew I had to cut away fast, I also recognised that if I didnít disconnect my RSL I would have to jump quickly before the canopy could have a chance to rip the risers away and make everything a shit load worse for everyone (disconnecting after cut-away didnít even cross my mind). After I actually cut away I shout twice ďIíve got to go!Ē, get confirmation in the form of ďfuck it, just jumpĒ and jump, itís a little quieter in the video, but you can hear what Iím shouting.

I didnít give any serious thought to disconnecting my RSL before cutting away, it crossed my mind but I was more concerned with getting that parachute detached as quickly as possible and I realised there wasnít tension on my risers. This has been the main area of my thinking since the jump, although it turned out well cutting away and jumping to my reserve, would have it been better to disconnect my RSL first (and perhaps not even jump!)? As it turns out this did get the canopy detached very quickly and meant it could be hauled in quickly too, but Iím sure some people imagine disconnecting the RSL would have been worth the time and risk (falling off with canopy still attached and jerking the heli, something getting caught in rotors, wasting time and the canopy inflates while Iím pissing about with the RSL or just accidently pulling the reserve with the RSL)?

I do also think that looking back, obviously not wanting to jump, I wasted a couple of seconds telling people ďIíve got to goĒ before actually jumping. This was after cutting and Iím a bit disappointed I didnít just piss off straight away as those wasted couple of seconds could have either been critical or my reserve couple have popped. I knew I had the RSL so why I felt it was so important to tell people about the fact I was going anyway is slightly puzzling to me now and I canít remember why I did it. Honestly I can only place it on the fact that I wasnít very keen on jumping on my reserve and was probably being a bit of a pussy and hesitating to put it bluntly.

A lot of people have mentioned I should have jumped because of limited space, just to make it clear however this wasnít actually something that crossed my mind. I only jumped because I believed I had to GTFO after pulling the cut-away handle with an RSL. If I didnít have an RSL, unless told otherwise I donít imagine I would have jumped.

Shortly after being under canopy the first thing I did was to check for the heli which I managed to see still flying but didnít keep sight of it for too long as it went out of my view pretty quickly so I looked for the DZ.

Watching the video back Iím so thankful for the camera guys quick reactions and handling of the situation. Without him pulling the lines in initially I may not have had slack on my risers (or worse) and cutting-away with an RSL attached probably wouldnít have been an option. His speediness of also recognising I had to GTFO and pulling in the canopy was brilliant.

Reading comments of people suggestions, some of them ring true as possibilities. The only point Iím scared as hell by are the number of people suggesting cutting the lines and/or canopy (I know some people have suggested sensible cutting such as the PC).

I donít know nearly enough about the physics of a helicopter to comment about forward speed etcÖ

Summary of my thought process (it was actually quite a simple thought process):
1. Identifying that yes, thatís actually happening
2. Considering possibilities
a. Disconnect RSL and cut (didnít get further down this thought path)
b. No line tension, cut & GTFO
3. Advised to cut away. agreed so cut away
4. Shouted ďIíve got to goĒ and jumped

Anyway, I hope this provides a little more of an insight and Iím interested to hear what people have to say that might be constructive on the matter.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jul 9, 2013, 7:01 PM
Post #78 of 107 (4038 views)
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Re: [Dobby1] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

"Upon exit of the heli I felt what I thought at the time was a tap on my shoulder but I believe it was an effect of the risers receiving a tug. I turned around and heard ďWhat the fuckĒ at about the same time, seeing my canopy it took me a couple of seconds to realise what was happening and realising that I was actually seeing my main in the early stages of deployment. I sat there for a couple of more seconds trying to think what options existed and then was told ďcut it away, cut it away!Ē. I was actually aware of my RSL but knew I had to cut away fast, I also recognised that if I didnít disconnect my RSL I would have to jump quickly before the canopy could have a chance to rip the risers away and make everything a shit load worse for everyone (disconnecting after cut-away didnít even cross my mind). After I actually cut away I shout twice ďIíve got to go!Ē, get confirmation in the form of ďfuck it, just jumpĒ and jump, itís a little quieter in the video, but you can hear what Iím shouting. "


AWESOME!

Thanks for sharing and thanks for a very well written account.
It appears you clearly thought this through afterwards.

Given what you folks had to deal with, I say you did well.

I am also one to agree with getting any sort of cutting involved. I guess that's all hindsight now anyway.
Good on you for not getting dead. Or getting the others dead too.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jul 9, 2013, 7:26 PM
Post #79 of 107 (4021 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Four and a half minutes. I would have had that thing on the ground in two...


oldwomanc6

Jul 9, 2013, 7:26 PM
Post #80 of 107 (4019 views)
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Re: [Dobby1] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

First off, thanks for coming on and giving your recollections of the jump. Kudos to you. Smile

I've got ~40 helicopter jumps, not the most here, certainly, but, enough to comment that you did well.

Amazing job to those who were left behind, on containing the rest.


ixlr82  (C 33491)

Jul 9, 2013, 10:07 PM
Post #81 of 107 (3969 views)
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Re: [oldwomanc6] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, thanks for sharing. Your incident and ensuing discussion may save a future life. I have zero helicopter jumps but now have a little more safety knowledge for when I do make that pre-second jump.


HUPRA  (D 5203)

Jul 10, 2013, 12:45 AM
Post #82 of 107 (3901 views)
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Re: [Dobby1] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post Dobby, you did a great job of getting off that mess.

The deciding point seems to be the RSL; if I had given you the opportunity to remove it you would have had the option of cutting away and climbing back in, with other jumpers leaving to make space.

On the flip side this would have taken more time, with the risk of something elso going wrong in that time.

The chance of your reserve getting entangled with the rest of the mess is quite scary and I honestly dont know which option is the better one.


(This post was edited by HUPRA on Jul 10, 2013, 12:46 AM)


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jul 10, 2013, 10:30 AM
Post #83 of 107 (3690 views)
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Re: [Dobby1] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a general reply...How many folks here have been through this? Raise your hands?...Thought so, so STFU Sly Great job handling a shit storm that none of us let alone any of you that went through it has had to deal with. You made quick rational decisions and followed through without making the situation worse. Congrats on not dying!

Anyone can Monday morning quarterback but what you guys did took guts and clear thinking. I was surprised all of you stayed. The only thing I might possibly say to do different was to send that young lady out the other side while you two men got the shit under control and that's just the chauvinist in meWink


robinheid  (D 5533)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #84 of 107 (3665 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

catfishhunter wrote:
This is a general reply...How many folks here have been through this? Raise your hands?...Thought so, so STFU Sly Great job handling a shit storm that none of us let alone any of you that went through it has had to deal with. You made quick rational decisions and followed through without making the situation worse. Congrats on not dying!

Anyone can Monday morning quarterback but what you guys did took guts and clear thinking. I was surprised all of you stayed.

+1!

Quote:
The only thing I might possibly say to do different was to send that young lady out the other side while you two men got the shit under control and that's just the chauvinist in meWink

- 1!

Silly chauvinist. Wink

The video shows that the young lady was clearly focused in the moment and helping to solve the problem. Hupra can verify but it seems that the extra pair of hands were definitely part of the solution, even if from a chauvinist's standpoint they did belong to a young lady.

Cool
44


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:41 AM
Post #85 of 107 (3650 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL yes she was helping but I would have thrown her out. I would hate to spend eternity not having sent her out if we all burned in..


ChrisD  (No License)

Jul 10, 2013, 11:48 AM
Post #86 of 107 (3645 views)
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Re: [catfishhunter] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

catfishhunter wrote:
This is a general reply...How many folks here have been through this? Raise your hands?...Thought so, so STFU Sly Great job handling a shit storm that none of us let alone any of you that went through it has had to deal with. You made quick rational decisions and followed through without making the situation worse. Congrats on not dying!

Anyone can Monday morning quarterback but what you guys did took guts and clear thinking. I was surprised all of you stayed. The only thing I might possibly say to do different was to send that young lady out the other side while you two men got the shit under control and that's just the chauvinist in meWink


-100

If everyone just kept quiet as you advocate, then we wouldn't need any forum or any dialog whatsoever.

(I support anyone, except the obvious posers asking stupid questions so they can set up others here on DZ.com. )

It is thru this dialog that promotes the "what if" scenario and helps others to learn and work out procedures and at least a plan if something like this should ever happen to them.

Kudos to all of you that have risked this type of stupid ridicule to advance your theories and suggestions, this is how we learn. Wink

Or perhaps we should all just shut the fuck up so that some can lead you down the road to an incident?

That's right keep your mouths shut!

Don't ask questions.

Just do what your supposed to do!


O'h by the way:

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO????

C

Keep up the Monday morning quarterbacking, it saves lives and promotes thinking...

Obviously that is too much for some???




ntrprnr  (B 28397)

Jul 10, 2013, 1:13 PM
Post #88 of 107 (3581 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Jesus. That scared the living shit out of me.




frankpilot

Jul 14, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #90 of 107 (3275 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I`m a helicopter pilot and also a senior instructor in a Norwegian skydiving club that regularily jump helicopters. The pilots mostly being my old instructors or co students, the safety issues always needs special and specified address. Pilots view and skydivers usually slightly casual view on whats hot and whats not, differ greatly without in necessarily being obvious even to the seasoned.

On ground during runup. A loose item such as a glove or a pilot chute may definitely be sucked into the turbine. At best, extremely expensive and dangerous. The risk of this will reduce with downdraught from the main rotor.

On ground or in hover in ground effect, recirculation is extreme. Snow, dust, plasticbags or other loose items tend to recirculate back into the rotor, or be sucked into the tail rotor on its way back via the main rotor disc. This may cause structural failure which is usually catastrophic, but will definitely aerodynamically unbalance the rotor and screw up trackin, and the vibrations will at best allow you to land without crashing if you are lucky. If the helicopter rolls during landing, expect perhaps 40% casualities or more if you are not in a 5p harness with flame retardent flightsuit, gloves and a heli helmet. Best case scenario, an extremely expensive repair but do not count on that amount of luck.

Flying at 10k feet is usually at the limit of max hover altitude. That is in ideal conditions. ISA atmosphere ie -15 degrees C etc. Unlikely the case with more jumpers than seats etc. The heli would be hard to control, danger of overtorquing the gearbox and drive assembly etc. In other words, no hover, no backwards flying, just a maintained slow forward speed just above ETL (effective translational speed), maybe a very slow descent. If you land this unrecovered mess, it will definitely resiculate into the rotor, tailrotor and or engine as soon as the heli gets into hover IGE, and that would be catastrophic.

In hindsight, inform and advice the pilot. Reduce forward speed but stay in ETL for controllability and power management causes. Jumper, get back on the skid and hold on. Disconnect LOR or skyhook. Helper, climb out and recover. If not possible, communicate with the pilot and consider staying outside holding the lines and fabric to enable a careful landing and emergency shutdown. All of this being a tall order, a good save and a lot of luck :-)


DeeBeeGee  (C License)

Jul 15, 2013, 11:51 AM
Post #91 of 107 (3057 views)
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Re: [HUPRA] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

HUPRA, have you changed your username since the incident or is this a remarkable coincidence?

nice work on preventing a very bad outcome


frankpilot

Jul 15, 2013, 5:01 PM
Post #92 of 107 (2950 views)
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Re: [frankpilot] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

-5c of course at 10k and disregard other typos :-)






obelixtim  (D 84)

Oct 24, 2013, 1:28 AM
Post #95 of 107 (2121 views)
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Re: [frankpilot] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

 Scary stuff....very lucky to get away with that...9 out of 10 times that would have gone badly I reckon. Having people bailing could complicate the problem, and all hands are needed to grab, hold and sit on material, but ready to bail if it turned to custard. Big Jack the ripper hook knives are your friend...I would have had that pilot chute off quick smart.

Quick and cool thinking and fast reactions are a must in such a situation, because the adrenalin levels would be through the roof, and that makes it very difficult to do the right thing, even if you know what the "right" thing is.

Whats "right" in one scenario could easily kill you in the next one. Luck plays a big part here, but as I've always said, luck doesn't always have to be bad, and I'll take luck any day when options are so limited... But you need to be best prepared, and a decent knife is part of the deal. Make sure a knife of some sort is ALWAYS accessible....we always had one mounted on the pilots rig...

I know an old pilot....was a test pilot who could fly any plane he got into, who told me how he once was flying one of those old ugly Sikorsky helicopters dropping cargo by parachute (not sure why, but it could have been part of a test programme) when the cargo fell down one side of the skid and the canopy deployed on the other side and inflated fully. The loadmaster could do nothing.

He managed to land it without smashing everything to bits, and maintained it was probably the most difficult and scary thing he ever did amongst the thousands of test flights he flew. But I guess thats why test pilots are the best of the best. He might have been lucky that the Sikorsky had quite a high tail boom, and the cargo chute might have been a bit smaller than a personnel parachute....

I bet the beer tasted good after that day of excitement.....


Premier onelawndart  (No License)

Oct 28, 2013, 6:55 AM
Post #96 of 107 (1566 views)
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Re: [cpoxon] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people were wondering why the forward speed on the heli. Two reasons; Straight down with fabric out is not a good idea. Secondly, the solution to losing a tail rotor is to try and have enough forward speed going that your vertical stabilizer on the tail can help keep you pointed in the right direction, then make a "running" landing. The pilot made the right decision to get moving imo. Also the cameraman did an awesome job of reeling it in.


wicodefly  (B License)

Oct 28, 2013, 9:55 PM
Post #97 of 107 (1315 views)
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Re: [onelawndart] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

Great job in staying alive and keeping calm.

I noticed someone who claimed to be a helicopter pilot on the YouTube comments saying that one possibility for the pilot was to continue to go forward slowly but also tilt a little to left (away from the side with the emergency). This way if the PC or another component had been lost it would be less likely to go into the talk rotor. Any thoughts? I have no idea I am neither an experienced pilot or sky diver (although I'm learning a bit of both).

BTW, don't a lot of the newer helicopters not have a rotor on the tail, but instead use a stabilizer? It would seem that might change things a bit.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Oct 29, 2013, 8:30 AM
Post #98 of 107 (1196 views)
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Re: [wicodefly] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

wicodefly wrote:
BTW, don't a lot of the newer helicopters not have a rotor on the tail, but instead use a stabilizer? It would seem that might change things a bit.

A stabilizer cannot substitute for a tail rotor on a conventional helicopter.
What *can* substitute is an enclosed fan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOTAR


wicodefly  (B License)

Oct 29, 2013, 10:53 AM
Post #99 of 107 (1123 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

ryoder wrote:
wicodefly wrote:
BTW, don't a lot of the newer helicopters not have a rotor on the tail, but instead use a stabilizer? It would seem that might change things a bit.

A stabilizer cannot substitute for a tail rotor on a conventional helicopter.
What *can* substitute is an enclosed fan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOTAR

Gotcha. Obviously I'm not a helicopter expert. Amazing video and glad it was shared and that everyone made it out safely.


Premier onelawndart  (No License)

Dec 6, 2013, 7:19 PM
Post #100 of 107 (570 views)
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Re: [onelawndart] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

this is what happens when a chopper loses it's tail rotor with no forward airspeed.

http://iloveskydiving.org/view/videos/friday-freakout-skydiving-helicopter-crash/


billeisele  (A 5643)

Dec 6, 2013, 8:24 PM
Post #101 of 107 (1140 views)
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Re: [onelawndart] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

onelawndart wrote:
this is what happens when a chopper loses it's tail rotor with no forward airspeed.

http://iloveskydiving.org/...ng-helicopter-crash/


RichM  (D 100226)

Dec 8, 2013, 2:44 PM
Post #102 of 107 (798 views)
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Re: [onelawndart] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

This possibly should have its own thread? But very interesting all the same. It looked like the rate of yaw remained stable which I wasn't expecting, and the rate of descent also remained stable although the vertical speed looked like an uncomfortable landing speed. I'm not a pilot of any description but am interested to know if that vertical speed could have been reduced without increasing the yaw? Or possibly reduced just before touch down? Thanks in advanec


Premier onelawndart  (No License)

Dec 8, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #103 of 107 (777 views)
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Re: [RichM] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

the helicopter is turning (yaw) because of the gyroscopic effect of the spinning main rotor.. the only thing that can stop that turn is enough wind against the vertical stabilizer. it can be extremely difficult to build forward speed once in a spin. there is another situation that may also be playing a role on the rapid descent. a helicopter's blades needs clean air in order to gain lift, once it is falling through it's own dirty "prop wash", it has no air to "grab". the blades are basically caught in it's own "burble". the only way to remedy this situation is to push the cyclic forward and maneuver the heli, and blades back into clean air, which may have been impossible while stuck in the turn. this is why a heli should always have some forward airspeed. in answer to your question about that looking like an uncomfortable landing speed... a heli needs forward speed to land without power, or to make a running landing (no tail rotor)... the pilot must basically "flare" the heli the same as you do your chute... straight down = zero flare.. although you can't see the crash, i am sure it was ugly..


(This post was edited by onelawndart on Dec 8, 2013, 3:30 PM)


vitriol  (C License)

Dec 8, 2013, 8:07 PM
Post #104 of 107 (683 views)
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Re: [onelawndart] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know who told you that, but pretty much all your post is nonsense.

And I'm not saying this only to you, but even if this is not the best source of information, dz.com is read by a lot of people, people don't always confirm if what they read here is correct and true. People make choices based on what they read here.

If you don't really know the subject, sometimes it's better not to say anything than to offer nonsense as facts. \rant

onelawndart wrote:
the helicopter is turning (yaw) because of the gyroscopic effect of the spinning main rotor..


The tail rotor helps counter the TORQUE effect from the engine turning the main rotor baldes. The gyroscopic effect is entirely different.

onelawndart wrote:
the only thing that can stop that turn is enough wind against the vertical stabilizer.


Actually it is very easy: you put the engine at idle speed, wich engages the freewheeling unit. The main rotor blades now turn freely and arent engaged to the transmission/engine, thus not producing any torque/yaw.


onelawndart wrote:
it can be extremely difficult to build forward speed once in a spin.
It's pretty easy, student pilots learn to do it.

onelawndart wrote:
a helicopter's blades needs clean air in order to gain lift, once it is falling through it's own dirty "prop wash", it has no air to "grab". the blades are basically caught in it's own "burble". the only way to remedy this situation is to push the cyclic forward and maneuver the heli, and blades back into clean air, which may have been impossible while stuck in the turn.

It's called vortex ring state, and happens when you fly into your own vortex, at the same speed as them. In that case you just have to lower the collective to stop creating vortexes, and move away.


onelawndart wrote:
this is why a heli should always have some forward airspeed.


You do know that helicopters hover don't you??


Premier onelawndart  (No License)

Dec 8, 2013, 8:48 PM
Post #105 of 107 (659 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

dude you are so clueless.. i am not sure where to start..

1. even if you throw the transmission into idle the gyroscopic force of the BLADES will keep you spinning. who told you otherwise? as a matter of fact, the engine is turning in a whole other direction.
2.
Quote:
Actually it is very easy: you put the engine at idle speed, wich engages the freewheeling unit. The main rotor blades now turn freely and arent engaged to the transmission/engine, thus not producing any torque/yaw.
this is asinine.. are you suggesting just dropping the collective? then what? spin into the ground? spin into the jumpers under you? the emergency procedure for loss of a tail rotor is to gain or (preferably) maintain enough speed to help straighten the craft and perform a "running" landing.
3. helicopter students definitely do NOT practice gaining speed while in a spin. loss of tail rotor procedures are done at a few feet off the ground. how far are you going to go in 7 feet?
4. helicopters only hover for landing in most cases. when possible we make a running takeoff just in case there is a problem, we have the forward speed to flare and land safely. when we come in to land we never come straight down.. Google "helicopter height/velocity diagram", maybe wikipedia can explain it to you.

I agree with you that
Quote:
If you don't really know the subject, sometimes it's better not to say anything than to offer nonsense as facts. \rant
Have you considered taking your own advice?


vitriol  (C License)

Dec 10, 2013, 9:40 PM
Post #106 of 107 (437 views)
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Re: [onelawndart] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

onelawndart wrote:
dude you are so clueless.. i am not sure where to start..

1. even if you throw the transmission into idle the gyroscopic force of the BLADES will keep you spinning. who told you otherwise? as a matter of fact, the engine is turning in a whole other direction.

As I explained before the gyroscopic force is irrelevent in this case. My instructors told me otherwise, I've experienced it myself many times, and if that's not enough, Manufacturers flight manuals tell me otherwise. Here's a direct quote:

Bell 206 Jet Ranger HB-XYA
Version 21.09.2012 7/16

BELL 206 B III - EMERGENCY PROCEDURES


TAIL ROTOR CONTROL FAILURE
 Complete Loss of Thrust
- Close throttle
- Enter autorotation
- Maintain minimum airspeed 50 knots (58 mph)

onelawndart wrote:
2.
Quote:
Actually it is very easy: you put the engine at idle speed, wich engages the freewheeling unit. The main rotor blades now turn freely and arent engaged to the transmission/engine, thus not producing any torque/yaw.
this is asinine.. are you suggesting just dropping the collective? then what? spin into the ground? spin into the jumpers under you? the emergency procedure for loss of a tail rotor is to gain or (preferably) maintain enough speed to help straighten the craft and perform a "running" landing.

I'm suggesting to put the engine to idle or just put the collective down, thus regaining control of the helicopter, autorotate, then land. You might be assuming a fixed pitch failure, but it's clearly not the case here.

onelawndart wrote:
3. helicopter students definitely do NOT practice gaining speed while in a spin. loss of tail rotor procedures are done at a few feet off the ground. how far are you going to go in 7 feet?


Actually from 7 feet you should be able to land right on the spot after a t/r failure if you follow the procedure. And if you have a good formation you do practice recovering from a spin as a student. The first few times from altitude, and them from a few feet.


onelawndart wrote:
4. helicopters only hover for landing in most cases. when possible we make a running takeoff just in case there is a problem, we have the forward speed to flare and land safely. when we come in to land we never come straight down.. Google "helicopter height/velocity diagram", maybe wikipedia can explain it to you.


Helicopters are used for many different kind of jobs. Often, you do take off or land vertically, and sometimes to do the job you do have to hover for many hours in a day. For skydiving operations it is often possible to have the jumpers exit from a hover. Its fun, and it's not dangerous if the helicopter has the performance to do it.

onelawndart wrote:
I agree with you that
Quote:
If you don't really know the subject, sometimes it's better not to say anything than to offer nonsense as facts. \rant
Have you considered taking your own advice?

Well, if you are actually flying helicopters, and believe all you wrote, I strongly advise you to talk to a competent instructor before you fly again. If you don't have anyone to ask I'd be happy to talk to you by PM. Seriously, if you actually fly helicopters you show a serious and dangerous lack of comprehension of many very basic principles. I'm not bragging, but I've been working as a pilot for many years and have teached this many times, I do know what I'm talking about.

Enough hijacking this thread, but again, you can contact me by pm if you want to discuss this further.


Premier onelawndart  (No License)

Dec 11, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #107 of 107 (340 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Premature from a helicopter [In reply to] Can't Post

dude.. if you are an instructor.. find a new job. you are liable to hurt someone. none of your "replies" validates anything you are trying to say. are you actually licensed? i find it hard to believe. i'm done here. pm me if you want.



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