Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
two out main and reserve entanglment

 

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format  (B 15348)

May 23, 2013, 10:33 AM
Post #26 of 57 (2144 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Question and food for thought - should your main, for whatever reason, get entangled with your reserve and chokes it off, what is YOUR plan B...what are YOU going to do?

Honestly, first thought was grabbing the main while cutaway, pulling it down trying to clear reserve?


labrys  (D 29848)

May 23, 2013, 11:28 AM
Post #27 of 57 (2111 views)
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Re: [format] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Honestly, first thought was grabbing the main while cutaway, pulling it down trying to clear reserve?

If the main is cutaway, you could easily lose your ability to control it or pull it in.


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 23, 2013, 11:37 AM
Post #28 of 57 (2106 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

popsjumper wrote:
In reply to:
Question and food for thought - should your main, for whatever reason, get entangled with your reserve and chokes it off, what is YOUR plan B...what are YOU going to do?

Continue to fight to get them clear of each other, plan on a PLF like no other, and say my goodbyes.

And it worked.

top


format  (B 15348)

May 23, 2013, 11:47 AM
Post #29 of 57 (2096 views)
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Re: [labrys] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

labrys wrote:
Quote:
Honestly, first thought was grabbing the main while cutaway, pulling it down trying to clear reserve?

If the main is cutaway, you could easily lose your ability to control it or pull it in.

I'm saying not letting the rag go while letting the air out of, so I could pull it down. One line, one corner, but out of pressure, hence cutaway. If I let it go - I could only watch it up there continuing choking reserve.


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 23, 2013, 12:38 PM
Post #30 of 57 (2072 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

BIGUN wrote:
>There's just no case for cutting away first

Except for the case of the student who is not quite dialed in. For example, they have 10-15 even 25 jumps. Now, they learned the difference between a PCIT and a Horseshoe and can usually demonstrate the proper EP's for each on the ground.

But, take that same student in a highly induced adrenaline state; 2500' and they've pulled. ALL they know is there is no parachute. What is their response going to be? How many believe they are really going to burn altitude trying to assess, "Which mal am I under?"

IMO doing the full proper EPs whether its a PCIT or Horseshoe will result in less assessment time and more action towards getting the reserve over your head.

The floor is yours, Gentlemen.

I learned back in the 70s when my DZ's student gear was mil-surp ripcord mains, chest-mounted reserves & capewells to cut-away with. On that gear, PCITs basically didn't exist, so it wasn't taught. There were only 2 types of mals: partial & total. (2-outs weren't an issue, as both canopies were round.) We were taught 2 basic EPs: (1) partial mal >> cut away; or (2) total mal>> go straight to reserve.

That's what we all drilled into our heads. At about 50ish jumps, when I really wasn't very current, I had a total mal. (Hard pull; probably dirt in the main ripcord housing). Even given my relative newness and lack of much currency, I went straight to reserve without an extra mental blip to decide which of the 2 EPs to use. So, my opinion that a student can be counted on to go straight to reserve if he dumps & has no canopy out is probably informed by that.


-ftp-

May 23, 2013, 1:20 PM
Post #31 of 57 (2051 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

If this video doesn't make you re-think your EP's then I dont know what will. Pay attention to what canopy ends up saving him from being another statistic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I


airtwardo  (D License)

May 23, 2013, 1:21 PM
Post #32 of 57 (2050 views)
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Re: [topdocker] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

topdocker wrote:
popsjumper wrote:
In reply to:
Question and food for thought - should your main, for whatever reason, get entangled with your reserve and chokes it off, what is YOUR plan B...what are YOU going to do?

Continue to fight to get them clear of each other, plan on a PLF like no other, and say my goodbyes.

And it worked.

top


In reply to:
Yeah but WE all don't have your karma! I've pulled enough Nuns & Cheerleaders into the dark side to NEVER go outside in a lightning storm, much less fight a downplane and expect any success.
UnimpressedSly


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 24, 2013, 12:05 AM
Post #33 of 57 (1981 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

-ftp- wrote:
If this video doesn't make you re-think your EP's then I dont know what will. Pay attention to what canopy ends up saving him from being another statistic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I

+1


Eddles  (C License)

May 24, 2013, 5:23 AM
Post #34 of 57 (1927 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting discussion.

I did the static line course on a ROL ripcord rig and progressed to throw-away. All student kit (static line, ROL & BOC) had a RSL and a mechanical AAD. I was taught to cut away and pull silver for most mals including PCIT, but go straight for silver on hard pulls after trying 2 more times. At jump #47, planned to pull above 4,000ft, I had a PCIT - counted to 4 seconds, looked behind me, saw the struggling pilot chute and cut away and pulled silver. When I was under the reserve canopy, I spotted the main fully out of its bag near and about 100ft (I'm guessing) above me on the right slowly spiralling downwards, so clearly at some point the pilot chute was successful and started the deployment sequence, I'm quite sure the RSL beat me to it but I can't be certain. I was in the saddle at 3000ft. After this, the CCI came to me, "You did what you were taught and it was correct. Next time, if you have this mal and you know you have altitude, bang the container with your fists two times and go straight for silver without cutting away if nothing happens."

It's interesting when I try to compare my experience with the discussion here.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 24, 2013, 12:07 PM
Post #35 of 57 (1815 views)
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Re: [topdocker] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

topdocker wrote:
popsjumper wrote:
In reply to:
Question and food for thought - should your main, for whatever reason, get entangled with your reserve and chokes it off, what is YOUR plan B...what are YOU going to do?

Continue to fight to get them clear of each other, plan on a PLF like no other, and say my goodbyes.

And it worked.

top

I was hoping Hedge would do some thinking and get back to us.
Unsure


hedge

May 27, 2013, 8:54 AM
Post #36 of 57 (1675 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

popsjumper wrote:
I was hoping Hedge would do some thinking and get back to us.
Unsure

for your entertainment? no thanks. I think the general discussion went very constructive and provided very good food for thought, thanks for the good objective posts everyone! I have made my conclusions and adjusted my opinion, no worries.

It was never my intention to be right for the sake of being right. Sorry if I made that impression, I'll choose different words next time.

Rest assured, I'm not too prone to "blind insistence" (I'm aware that I'm a human being tough), and I think it was clear I was not talking about "experience" in terms of decades in the sport and thousands of jumps, there is more than one definition of experience in the english language.


airbornesoon

May 28, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #37 of 57 (1475 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks to everyone that has posted in here there is def some good food for thought. this did scare me some more so the day after. luckily i was sick and couldnt go back for the rest of my delays. but ill be back this week or next to get my 10s done, then on a weekend for my 20 and 60s


livendive  (D 21415)

May 28, 2013, 1:23 PM
Post #38 of 57 (1394 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Picked a response target at random, but it appears I somewhat disagree with you.

I teach my students to go straight to reserve in exactly two situations...if they can't deploy pilot chute (i.e. absolutely nothing is out) or they are still falling very fast below 2000'.

In the case of a PC-assist SL (the method I learned by and taught for several years), if you've left the plane and are not in tow, you have *something* out. If you're more than 5 seconds from the plane and still have no canopy, cutaway and pull reserve. If you're below 2000' and still have nothing, pull reserve. Preach altitude awareness over and over and teach them to follow procedure. It seems to me that going straight to reserve with a released but unopening main results in a bad outcome more often than good, and I've seen it on a tandem and a floating PUD, in addition to more conventional rigs.

Blues,
Dave


airbornesoon

May 28, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #39 of 57 (1373 views)
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Re: [livendive] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

agreed and thats what they taught us. i thought something broke from the SL as when i looked up there was nothing there. i didnt pull reserve right away as i knew i still had some time so i reached back twice and hit the container with my right hand seeing if it would dislodge anything. still nothing. that is when i decided to go stright to reserve.

the SL they were using did not pull out the deployment bag, but rather had a piece of velcro that was attached to the PC. the PC is then packed in the main container just under the flaps, and as the SL pulls away the PC is pulled out into the air stream. the container is also closed by a piece of cable attached to the SL. so when i was reaching back and still felt the main seated in the container i went right for the reserve.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 28, 2013, 4:13 PM
Post #40 of 57 (1289 views)
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Re: [hedge] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
for your entertainment? no thanks.


No. For the learning value.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on May 28, 2013, 4:13 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 28, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #41 of 57 (1309 views)
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

airbornesoon wrote:
agreed and thats what they taught us. i thought something broke from the SL as when i looked up there was nothing there. i didnt pull reserve right away as i knew i still had some time so i reached back twice and hit the container with my right hand seeing if it would dislodge anything. still nothing. that is when i decided to go stright to reserve.

Impressive.
Smile


airbornesoon

May 30, 2013, 10:14 AM
Post #42 of 57 (1122 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks pops.. figured i might as well take a second and try to knock it out and make sure. i knew i was high enough cause things werent as big as they are when i jump out military style (not gonna lie, i never looked at the altimeter i was jumping SL from 3500 so i already knew i was low) and thats when i know i will have to worry.

not gonna lie though, the next day and rest of the week for that matter i was a little shaken up. kept thinking about it all. i was sick with a whicked cough and on meds, which was nice cause a week off after that was good to clear my head.. im ready to get back up there and finish already lol

airborne all the way


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 30, 2013, 7:19 PM
Post #43 of 57 (1017 views)
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Please pay more attention to your altimeter. It's a life-saving device....regardless of exit altitude.


obelixtim  (D 84)

May 31, 2013, 5:51 AM
Post #44 of 57 (942 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

 + 1.

As far as Pilot chute assist SL systems, (Mentioned in the OP but not commented on so far),I much prefer a direct bag SL system....or if PC assist is used, the PC needs to be attached securely to the SL...velcro doesn't really do that.

Back in the day a strand of inner from a gutted 550 line made good strong break ties, ensuring the PC was pulled out properly.

In the case of using SOS student systems, the problem of which handle to pull is academic, as there is only one handle to pull. Thats where the direct bag system works better than PC assist.


airbornesoon

May 31, 2013, 7:32 AM
Post #45 of 57 (903 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

i know that. and i will certainly check my altimeter more often.. being so new to the SL progression i relied back on my military training and was visually looking around. im not used to altimeter checks yet, but i agree with you 100% now that im off the SL i will be sure to rely on that and myself to save my life every jump :)


stratostar  (Student)

May 31, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #46 of 57 (854 views)
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The static line system they use is Velcro and attaches to the pilot chute that gets packed ontop of the dbag.

So we have a pilot chute assist deployment set up...

Quote:
Wellllll the static line pulled and from what we seen on the video the bag stayed closed somewhat, as you could see the netting from the PC still sitting on top of the container

Well then sounds to me like a rigging fuck up! Why? There is no way a properly seated and mated velcro PCA will not drag the pilot chute out into the wind.... I've drop many thousands of them.

Quote:
Emerg procedures are when nothing's there you pull reserve right away.

What kind of crazy ass school are you attending? What ever happened to teaching to "check canopy" by looking over one shoulder? Had you done so most likely that PC would have departed the container.... How do we know that? The damn main came out and inflated, didn't it!

SOP for SL or IAD progression on exit.

1. feet out and stop
2. all the way out
3. dot or go command
4. Arch & count 1 thousand, 2 thousand, 3 thou, 4 thou 5 thou, CHECK CANOPY!
5. apply EP's if no main or malfunction

Pretty simple stuff that has worked for the last 5 decades that I'm aware of.


rustywardlow  (D 18809)

Jun 2, 2013, 10:00 PM
Post #47 of 57 (715 views)
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

Pulled my handles in the proper order. There is no reason not to cutaway then pull your reserve especially once a main deploment process has been started. Anyone that tells you different is an idiot.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jun 3, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #48 of 57 (622 views)
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Re: [airbornesoon] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

airbornesoon wrote:
i know that. and i will certainly check my altimeter more often.. being so new to the SL progression i relied back on my military training and was visually looking around. im not used to altimeter checks yet, but i agree with you 100% now that im off the SL i will be sure to rely on that and myself to save my life every jump :)

Good stuff. However, let me add...

"Rely" is not what we really want to do all the time.
As you indicated, using your eyeballs as the military trained you is good, too. You'll want both of those skills - using the altimeter AND using your eyeballs to judge altitude. We don't 'rely' on either one, we use them both though.

Consider: What if your alti quits in freefall?

So yes, continue developing your eyes for altitude judgement.
We want both of those tools in our skydiving toolbox.

Just fyi...I first did S/L and had many jumps afterwards with no alti at all...just eyeballs and a very fast-running count of seconds.
ShockedLaughLaugh
LaughLaugh


airbornesoon

Jun 4, 2013, 9:54 AM
Post #49 of 57 (442 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks POPs, nice to hear some constructive criticism from you. i am just a newb with all this and going to live and learn. hopefully not like that again.

as far as stratostar is concerned, please read the entire thread. i did look up over my shoulder and nothing.. then i slapped my container twice and felt the DBag still seated. So what we were taught is if you look up and there is nothing (i didnt even have a pilot chute in tow) and we know this cause the instructor had video of the exit and you could see the pilot chute still just sitting on my back.

so with absolutely nothing out i was taught to go straight for reserve. so thats what i did. if i would have cut away and then the main pulled out i could have had the main still stuffed in the DBag fly up and get caught by my reserve and then id really be up shits creek as it would have deflated. but then it could have gone the other way and the container just stayed shut.. the SL could have broke loose and the container been flapping open, or the cable could have been holding it shut still.

to say that the school is teaching wrong i have to disagree with you. i believe that in that type of malfunction you are kind of playing it 50/50 your kind of just going to hope for the best.

i have thought about this over and over, and maybe if i was a little higher and experienced i could have tried to move around more and maybe get the DBag dislodged. i hope to never have absolutely nothing in the air ever again, but if i did im not sure what my thought process would be again.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Jun 4, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #50 of 57 (390 views)
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Re: [Ron] two out main and reserve entanglment [In reply to] Can't Post

>There is no 100% right answer when dealing with a PC in tow malfunction.
>Frankly, it's the only mal that ever concerns me.....

How about a horseshoe?
How about the rare but not unheard of reserve malfunction?
Those are the two that worry me the most.


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