Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

May 22, 2013, 1:24 PM
Post #26 of 51 (2512 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisD] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

The second jumper was there. I'm guessing the news and/or firemen just didn't sniff him out.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

May 22, 2013, 1:26 PM
Post #27 of 51 (2511 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dthames] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Both jumpers were on the same skydive. It was a group tracking jump.


lanceav8r  (D 13892)

May 26, 2013, 3:25 PM
Post #28 of 51 (2291 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jumpinjackflsh] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
30K for a helicopter ride is just ridiculous.

You are not paying 30K for a helicopter ride. You are paying for a helicopter and medical crew to sit on standby waiting for someone to do something stupid. How much does it cost to have a crew and helicopter on standby for you 24/7? About 30k if you need to use it.






Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

May 27, 2013, 1:37 PM
Post #31 of 51 (2009 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisD] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Chris, and all. Unrelated to this incident, but on subject with the debate of to call a helo or not call a helo:

No shit, there I was working in the gear store, when I hear a guttural scream, "Call 911!" I pick up the phone, call 911 and run to the scene where a close friend is lying face down in a pool of her own blood. First responders are starting to work on her as I give the dispatcher her basic information and describe her current condition as best I can. They say they are sending a helo. I respond that I will clear the landing area for the helo. A first responder overhears and tells me she doesn't need the helo, save the expense. I walk a few paces away and confirm the helo. Once she arrived to the hospital she had approx. two minutes of air time and they began surgery immediately. She had landed on her face and had significant facial and sinus injuries.

If we lost her en route, I would have never forgiven myself, and we would have lost a beautiful soul.

If her insurance did not pay for the ride and/or she didn't have insurance, I would have held a fundraiser and I would not have stopped raising funds until she was in the clear.

Blunt force trauma does not always display itself externally. A torn aorta, cranial bleeding, brain trauma.... seconds count in these situations. I'll never second guess myself for calling in the fastest mode of transport.

Now if you crack an ankle, I'll load you up in my own car and drive you there myself.

Just my opinion.... worth what you paid for it.


cnsky54  (D 505)

May 27, 2013, 3:01 PM
Post #32 of 51 (1939 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GravityGirl] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank-you, GG. I work in an ER, and the chopper lands all sorts of folks on our roof. Sure, some could have been driven, but there are those who arrive seemingly functional, but a CT scan reveals something that sends them racing to the OR down the hall.

Thank goodness you trusted your instincts on that one. First responders are NOT always right.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 27, 2013, 3:20 PM
Post #33 of 51 (1916 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cube] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

cube wrote:
They have to cover the fixed costs too. Including the manpower needed for it to stay alert, rents, financial costs, maintenance etc. Keeping a service like that running at all times isnt cheap, even though the cost of the flight in itself doesnt cost that much.

Our local provider offers air ambulance service insurance that covers your whole family for $50-$60 per year.

Blues,
Dave


lanceav8r  (D 13892)

May 27, 2013, 5:35 PM
Post #34 of 51 (1846 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cnsky54] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I just remembered, I have taken one of these 30,000 dollar helicopter rides (actually I have no memory of it since I was unconscious). Best money my insurance company ever spent. If you don't have insurance, maybe you should take up bowling instead and hope you don't get into a car accident on the way there.


Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

May 27, 2013, 6:38 PM
Post #35 of 51 (1778 views)
Shortcut
Re: [livendive] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Great info to pass along Dave! Thank you.




oshkosh220  (D License)

May 28, 2013, 10:35 PM
Post #37 of 51 (1377 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PhreeZone] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I am frustrated to see the original post go from a report of an actual incident that happened to a bunch of bickering about insurance and the cost of life flights. Sure you may never need a life flight.....until you need one. That being said, I am thankful my DZ and initial responders made the call to call for a life flight at this incident because it was my butt that was getting airlifted. Instead of making this post about insurance costs and airlift bills, shouldn't everybody be asking what went wrong on the jump and how to learn from the mistakes made to make the sport safer? On this jump a Cypres saved my life and for that I am thankful. I have heard all the arguments for and against having a Cypres but I would not be here today to write this post if I had not had mine installed and turned on. If you don't have one, whats to stop someone from knocking you unconscious on your next jump. With any luck you might never need one, just like the seatbelt in your car.








Premier GravityGirl  (D 18897)

May 29, 2013, 12:16 PM
Post #41 of 51 (1162 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisD] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

ChrisD wrote:
SmileWe can all have a huge debate abouthwour comunities spend our tax ollars, where and wen, etc.

The botom line is that if you want to save large numbers of people stop them from smoking, do away with coal and oil use and increase basic care.

Huge numbers of individuals do not get basic care!

Don't think that because you see a helo that you automatically are gong to be saved!

And again over 90 percent of the cost of the LA helos are HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL TRANSFERS!!!

The rest of the time there is huge pressuret fly at anything.

How helos ae dispatched,...

Dispatching a helo is supposed to have "protocalls" so I am a a bit of a loss to fully understand how someone on the phone, that does not met the criteria for dispatching,..

I am also all for things like regional dispatching and allocating medics to low use areas, but their skills rapidly degrade?

Everyone has a "I know a xxxxxx story to support" their story,...

But spending millions for one person, isn't responsable use of public funds. Do's make for a flashy paint job though!
C

I would love to discuss this further with you. This is not the right forum for that. Luckily, we can do it face to face since we are on the same DZ. We can share information.

I feel compelled to mention a couple of fact checks that might be useful:

1. Minutes saved do save lives. The ride from Skydive San Diego to the nearest trauma hospital is a long one.

2. Dispatch does have protocols. Many of which are put in place with the input of folks like Grimmy that educate emergency services as to types of injuries specific to our sport. Dispatch relies on reports from people on the scene to help them make a decision. You might be surprised to know the level of skilled professionals that surround you at the dz. Doctors, nurses, corpsmen, etc. Many of whom have saved the lives of fellow jumpers.

3. The story I told was one of many I have been exposed to in my 19 years in the sport. My opinions and desire to educate are based on real life experiences. Too many of them for my liking.

4. I think you are exaggerating when you say "millions for one person" ;) But the person in question here is priceless.


ixlr82  (C 33491)

May 29, 2013, 9:58 PM
Post #42 of 51 (997 views)
Shortcut
Re: [oshkosh220] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I too am frustrated by the direction of this thread. Am I understanding correctly, you are the actual person in this thread who was knocked out? If so, I'd love to hear what you remember from the dive. Were you diving straight at the base (rabbit) or something else? No look dive (probably not, I hope not)? Where was the person that you hit located in the dive? Did you somehow cross paths or did you just not see him/her? I love tracking dives, but my limited experience with them is that, for some reason, some people get a little over aggressive. I've been taken out several times from behind while just flying conservative and relative to the rabbit tracking leader.


GeorgiaDon  (A 35958)

May 30, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #43 of 51 (906 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GravityGirl] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Chris, and all. Unrelated to this incident, but on subject with the debate of to call a helo or not call a helo:
I regret that I seem to have initiated this "thread drift", as this isn't the appropriate place for this discussion. In my defense I'll just say that I was responding to a post that indicated that the jumper was "unconscious until he landed" (which implies he regained consciousness after landing), and the helicopter was called in "as a precaution". "Precaution" suggested that there was no evident need for extreme urgency, but rather that a helicopter was called "just to be on the safe side".

Ideally every jumper will have good health insurance including coverage for air ambulance flights. Even so, some discretion should be applied before calling for the most expensive possible mode of transportation. Also, the number of air ambulances available is a limited resource, so a helicopter that is tied up transporting someone with a twisted knee is not available for the car accident victim who really does need care urgently.

Once again, I am very glad that everything worked out for the jumper (really, both of them) in this incident, and I am glad that apparently he will still be able to afford to buy beer to go with his "no shit" story.

Don


oshkosh220  (D License)

May 30, 2013, 8:45 AM
Post #44 of 51 (857 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ixlr82] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the jump in a nut shell: I was on the camera step with one other jumper. We had briefed that we were going to wait for the last of our 18 way tracking dive to exit before we were going to leave the camera step. The load was mixed experience levels and we put the majority of the more experienced jumpers toward the front of the plane (last to exit). The set-up in the door was fine and the exit was a bit slow but not bad for all 18 jumpers. Once I had spent a second or two taking pics of the exit I turned towards the building tracking dive formation. Seeing that I had quite a bit of distance to make up to get to the formation I began a fairly aggressive track towards the formation as I began counting bodies. After several seconds of tracking toward the formation is when I made contact with the other jumper. I was scanning the sky in front of, left, right and below me but I did not see the jumper that was slightly above or on level with me. On the GoPro video it seems clear as day that he is there and I am left wondering how I did not see him. But never the less I did not see him. And as I had a higher forward speed than him, when my face made contact with his foot, it was hard enough to knock me out. I tumbled onto my back and fell straight down until my cypres deployed my reserve (PD-160) (loaded at 1.25). I had about an eight second canopy ride until I crash landed, still unconscious, about 150 ft up the side of a hill.


ixlr82  (C 33491)

May 30, 2013, 11:27 PM
Post #45 of 51 (714 views)
Shortcut
Re: [oshkosh220] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting that. I feel that I have learned something from your incident and that is this: When staring straight ahead (say, at a wall) my peripheral vision is much greater to the left, to the right and down compared to up. Peripheral vision is very limited looking up and requires that I aggressively raise my head... a very unnatural move (IMO) when diving to a formation but one that I will begin to use from now on.


wayneflorida  (D 30566)

May 31, 2013, 5:42 AM
Post #46 of 51 (633 views)
Shortcut
Re: [oshkosh220] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

You landed 150 feet up the side of a hill. Was that 150' higher than landing area on DZ? If so, then you AAD fired at 600 AGL. How many vertical feet is a 8 second reserve canopy ride with brakes set?

113' (850 FPM canopy descent for 8 seconds)

600' -113' = 487' Deployment distance (AAD fire to open canopy.)

What am I missing?


ChrisD  (No License)

May 31, 2013, 7:43 AM
Post #47 of 51 (587 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ixlr82] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing is as easy as it looks....


ixlr82 wrote:
Thanks for posting that. I feel that I have learned something from your incident and that is this: When staring straight ahead (say, at a wall) my peripheral vision is much greater to the left, to the right and down compared to up. Peripheral vision is very limited looking up and requires that I aggressively raise my head... a very unnatural move (IMO) when diving to a formation but one that I will begin to use from now on.


While this is a great obseervation,...

P vision is a very complex and or very simple thing depending upon how yo look at it. Unsure

Read my toned down paper: attached


Basically and very often you can be looking dierectly at something and not see it. So making statements about moving your head, etc are very worthwhile...

BUT

it's much more important to be activly looking for traffic, something that is very difficult if your activly engaged in another task!!!

In other words "There is nothing yo can do."

Sorry, Crazy not what a lot of people want to hear, but that is the way it is.

Another reason why exit seperation needs to be re-addressed!

C

My point is don't delude yourselves into thinking by changing your head position you increase safety, your brain has more to say than most think!


Here is the really short version:


"Thats because even though the observers were looking right at the missed events, their attention was focused on other visual stimuli, or they were otherwise cognitively engaged (e.g., talking on a cell phone). Strikingly, those involved in these crashes usually have no idea there was an object there, and cannot explain their failure to have seen it."



On another note, again I am soo glad of your great outcome!!!SmileSmileSmile


(This post was edited by ChrisD on May 31, 2013, 8:34 AM)
Attachments: ChrisD P vision.doc (68.5 KB)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 31, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #48 of 51 (535 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ixlr82] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

>When staring straight ahead (say, at a wall) my peripheral vision is much greater
>to the left, to the right and down compared to up.

Definitely. Evolution has provided us with excellent tools to see and notice things that are in our usual fields of vision. This is why it's hard to see people above you, and this is why so many students don't see the DZ when it is directly beneath them - these are just places we are not used to seeing things, and we don't have the instincts to check in those areas.

Thus it is worth the extra few seconds you might need to check for traffic during critical parts of the skydive - approaching a formation, breaking off, looking for a missing skydiver in a formation etc.


ixlr82  (C 33491)

May 31, 2013, 11:36 PM
Post #49 of 51 (433 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ChrisD] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting Chris. I am fascinated by the idea that being over stimulated could cause you not to see things in your peripheral vision. However, given the op's description and the fact that he was actively engaged in looking for jumpers, I would surmise that the other jumper was just out of his field of view above him but well within the view of the GoPro.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jun 1, 2013, 5:15 AM
Post #50 of 51 (370 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ixlr82] Injury - San Diego - 19 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Jim, the issue is very difficult for most to understand. many want to belive that they are different and or this type of visual thing can't happen to them! This is the problem in that so many want to attribute a "soulution" or find an answere to our human short comings as faced with the more painfull realization that some stuff is beyond our control.

Trust me our brains can play serious tricks on us. In addition our eyes have receptors that are programmed to recognize motion at certian speeds and various visual angles.

WHEN WE ARE STANDING UPRIGHT!

It all goes to hell when we are prone or upside down.

This phenomoneon is well known, but not well undestood by the geneeral public. There are hundreds of examples of bad outcomes in so many aspects of our non-natural lives! But the actual cause just gets attributed to an "Individual" being blamed or as an accident!

I find the many examples of the kid at the bottom of the pool, drowning, and literally the lifeguard "can't see " them to be a very vivid example of this. Again trust me,..

Research shows this time and time again something is right in front of someone...and they can't see it! Perhaps this is one of those things that unless it happens right in front of you you don't fully understand how this happpens. yes the last sentance was a bit of a pun

But untill I actually saw this, researched it my self, and watch'd this right in front of my own eys, I was dumfounded with awe that again, literally so many couldn't see such an obvious difference and in other expeirements so many can't see literally the gorilla in the room!

It really is the minds eye!

C

And the really scary thing is you needendt be over stimulated

Think driving and texting...


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Incidents

 


Search for (options)