Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013

 

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Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 22, 2013, 5:56 AM
Post #51 of 62 (2350 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No one said that Timmy cut away above 1000'.

I did. Granted it might have been below 1000 feet when he actually cut away, but it wasn't by a lot. Everything considered the time his main was cutaway he was probably in the 750 range. That is totally a guess though based on timing, and turn initiation altitude.

Quote:
which collapsed when he was about to do is last 270 of his turn.

Not true. It collapsed just as he approached the end of his first 90 degrees. I've watched the video a lot.

Quote:
At this point, he is way lower than 1000'.
Highly unlikley. Timmy has one of the nicest turns out there. Very long, diving turn, starting from much higher than 1000ft on the Petra. He was very likely around 1000 feet when it actually collapsed, maybe 900.

Quote:
The canopy threw him around for about 3 seconds before he cutaway.

Agreed. And I'd expect he lost a good 200-300 feet here. Putting the actual cutaway in the 600 foot region. Compare that to the OP incident at 300 feet. Way too close of a margin to be thinking about cutting away instead of just pulling silver. Remember partially collapsed main is better than linestretch in a reserve.

Quote:
all I said was that a skyhook have saved one person in a similar situation. As none of us were in the air that day, it is not possible for us to say what the right decision was and if the poor jumper just ran out of luck Frown

100% agree. It's very easy for us all to armchair quarterback. I believe wholeheartedly that Lenn did everything he felt he could. It was a lose/lose situation.

The point I'm trying to address is that relying on the skyhook at 300 feet (cutaway) is still flipping a coin. It's also worth noting that firing the reserve into a collapsed spinning main is flipping the coin too. Both are shit situations and Lenn got a raw deal. MY opinion is that at that altitude the more material the better, but no matter what you're likely going to be having a hospital stay as a best case scenario.

BSBD
Ian

Edit: Hope this is coming across as a discussion, it's all I intend it to be. Not an argument Cool


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 22, 2013, 6:00 AM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

May 22, 2013, 8:05 AM
Post #52 of 62 (2272 views)
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Re: [irishrigger] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D


TangBu  (C 102574)

May 22, 2013, 10:44 AM
Post #53 of 62 (2180 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

There's the student who cut away at ~200 feet at Chicago:

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Deisel  (D 31661)

May 22, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #54 of 62 (2090 views)
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Re: [TangBu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting that. He survived, but certainly didn't walk away under his own power.

By proving this I mean in the scientific sense of hypothesis - theory - law. We have a hypothesis but I highly doubt that this event is repeatable enough to create a sound thoery, and certainly not law.

Maybe this is one for the parachute testers to work on. Or have they already and there are results floating about out there. I'd love to see them if anyone would like to share.


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

May 22, 2013, 5:14 PM
Post #55 of 62 (2016 views)
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Re: [TangBu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

TangBu wrote:
Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

There's the student who cut away at ~200 feet at Chicago:

It was more like 300 feet, but I wouldn't try it myself. Had he not been on the west side of the runway where the ground slopes down, he would not have been so lucky.


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 22, 2013, 5:17 PM
Post #56 of 62 (2013 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

yes. Me. From 250 feet. 8+ second reserve ride.

Back in 1992 IIRC, at the Freefall Convention, mike McGowan filming from above and behind, someone else filming from the ground. Still pix were published in Skydiving Magazine (weird side-note: no horizon visible, just green) and the video is in one of mike's skydiving films.)

Rig was a Sorcerer, a 2-parachute BASE rig with the hand deploy BASE version of the skyhook. I cut away a perfectly open and straight-flying main at 250 feet. System worked as advertised. Had a 180 on reserve opening and got it turned around in time to make a nice standup landing.

Obviously, controlled conditions, prior planning, waiting until just the right moment to go, so everything had a much greater probability of working perfectly.

Plus, my descent rate at the time I chopped was 15fps or thereabouts, so all those discussions about reaction time and pull-to-deployment distance are very different than for the two cutaways being discussed here, which involved far higher rates of descent.

Knowing what I know from my experience, I would probably not cut away but do the least worst thing - grab silver and hope to get some more square footage into the air above me before I landed.

Frown
44


Jvx  (D License)

May 25, 2013, 1:15 AM
Post #57 of 62 (1649 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Southern_Man wrote:
jjudd wrote:
I would confidently cut it with a mal induced in my turn at 600-750' (reading when i look at my alti to choose dump reserve or cutaway) with my skyhook. Thats granted a perfect scenario where i grab red without any difficulty finding my handle. Below 500 is tough to say and that will be my personal choice at the time it happens.

Like all safety devices we dont rely on it but have it as that extra precaution since it will likely beat you at pulling the reserve pin and aids greatly in extracting the reserve quicker

If you are cutting away at 600 ft you are relying on it.


Do we know a name yet???


FB1609  (C 1409)

May 25, 2013, 7:53 AM
Post #58 of 62 (1552 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

robinheid wrote:
I cut away a perfectly open and straight-flying main at 250 feet. System worked as advertised.
44

Base rig or not, consider your last 30+ years of life a bonus!


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 25, 2013, 9:31 AM
Post #59 of 62 (1505 views)
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Re: [Jvx] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Lenn Taylor (see blue skies forum)


sebcat  (D 22826)

May 28, 2013, 1:46 AM
Post #60 of 62 (1080 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding skyhooks.
Skyhooks are A Good Thing. But the margin they give you is so small you might as well have lost it before you decided to pull silver. I believe it was strong who released comparisons between MARD deployments and canopy transfers? Everyone should see this video. If anyone knows where I can find it, I'd be grateful.

A lot of fabric will be a much better all-round choice than a skyhook safety wise. But I've seen people jumping small canopies who just don't understand why you don't already own a SkyHook(tm) and this pisses me of. Safety is not a product, it's the sum of your choices.

Regarding this particular incident, if you want to jump where there's potential for dust devils and thermals, you're increasing your risk exposure. This is fine by me, I'd do the same. But it's not about having a skyhook or not having a skyhook in those circumstances, it's about jumping or not jumping. You can never predict when a dust devil will form.

robinheid wrote:
Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

yes. Me. From 250 feet. 8+ second reserve ride.
Reserve wasn't slider up, I take it?


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 28, 2013, 2:38 AM
Post #61 of 62 (1046 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin: was the reserve packed slider-up or slider-down?


Deyan  (D 322)

May 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
Post #62 of 62 (702 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was told some of these details might have been inaccurate and was asked to post that it seems that the jumper did try to cutaway and did have a skyhook but ended up landing at line stretch of his reserve

Do you know if the lanyard was still on the hook when they found the canopy?


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