Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013

 

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f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 6:41 AM
Post #26 of 62 (2185 views)
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Re: [irishrigger] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

I am referring to the videos on the UPT site with from real skydives, not the base jump ones at the end of the the long video. Fwiw, the base jumpers had fully inflated canopies after less than 2 seconds of freefall which is less than 20 meters of altitude loss even without a canopy.

The real skydive videos show reserves open after 3 seconds. 3 seconds of acceleration towards the earth gives you a theoretical maximum altitude loss of 45 meters with no breaking force applied. If your initial velocity towards the ground is 10 m/s, the theoretical max altitude loss is 75 meters.

What you were told 21 years ago probably does not apply to small HP canopies. In most cases I would agree with you that it is better to just get more nylon out, but if your main is just a wildly spinning sub 100sqft canopy, I would guess that the existing nylon is just going to give your reserve a much harder time to inflate and fly properly. That is at least the impression that most of us who witnessed Timmys collapsed Petra has.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 21, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #27 of 62 (2096 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll reiterate. It's my belief, skyhook or not, that a 300 foot cutaway is a bad idea.

It's a shit situation to be in, no matter how you cut it, but your best option is getting as much nylon over your head as possible.

Quote:
That is at least the impression that most of us who witnessed Timmys collapsed Petra has

Timmy's collapse was well higher than 300 feet. It was in the beginning of his 450 executed well over 1000 feet. Sure, it was low, but you can't compare the two.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 21, 2013, 8:10 AM)


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

May 21, 2013, 8:41 AM
Post #28 of 62 (2064 views)
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Re: [yoink] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

>One of the reasons I never jumped in Perris in the afternoons were the dust devils. It continually baffled me >seeing people gearing up as dustdevils that could overturn deckchairs tore through the landing area...

Having worked at both Elsinore and Perris for many years I always thought Perris was safer in terms of dust devils. Although Perris has more of them and it seems much larger ones...there is so much dirt around Perris that you can almost always see them. There is nothing worse than a dust devil you can't see.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 21, 2013, 9:00 AM
Post #29 of 62 (2031 views)
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Re: [rmarshall234] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you on this one.

Few years ago in Z-hills I watched Tony Uragallo do a rather impressive job of surviving and handling a dust devil that tried to smack him when he was 20 - maybe 30 ft above the ground.

There were no squirrely winds, no other dust devils, just that one.

Weird. Scary.


pms07  (D 7571)

May 21, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #30 of 62 (2002 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think I remember that. It certainly DID happen to an Air Force Academy cadet at Colorado Springs in the late 80's or early 90's. One of my coworkers, who had made a few jumps, was working in the control tower and witnessed it. Unsure

I don't think that is correct John. The only fatality at AFA in that era was Captain Mike Dionne in May 84 and it was not a dust devil, but rather mountain rotor coming over the Front Range. Two canopies were in the air and both collapsed and reinflated multiple times, gaining and losing hundreds of feet in altitude, before Mike hit the ground. Mikes canopy was collapsed and actually hit the ground before he did. I recall it well as I was on the load and Mike was good friend. Who was your buddy in the tower, I may know him or her?

Pat


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
May 21, 2013, 9:57 AM
Post #31 of 62 (1958 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told some of these details might have been inaccurate and was asked to post that it seems that the jumper did try to cutaway and did have a skyhook but ended up landing at line stretch of his reserve. More details on this are expected after the DZ assists in getting the jumper back to his home.


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 21, 2013, 10:01 AM
Post #32 of 62 (1947 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Ian. Also, if you're thinking about cutting away at 300', then you'll actually be cutting away lower than that, because your hand still has to move, even if it's already on the handle.

Wendy P.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 21, 2013, 10:07 AM
Post #33 of 62 (1934 views)
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Re: [pms07] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

pms07 wrote:
Quote:
I think I remember that. It certainly DID happen to an Air Force Academy cadet at Colorado Springs in the late 80's or early 90's. One of my coworkers, who had made a few jumps, was working in the control tower and witnessed it. Unsure

I don't think that is correct John. The only fatality at AFA in that era was Captain Mike Dionne in May 84 and it was not a dust devil, but rather mountain rotor coming over the Front Range. Two canopies were in the air and both collapsed and reinflated multiple times, gaining and losing hundreds of feet in altitude, before Mike hit the ground. Mikes canopy was collapsed and actually hit the ground before he did. I recall it well as I was on the load and Mike was good friend. Who was your buddy in the tower, I may know him or her?
Airman Rhon Grant, currently with the FAA.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 21, 2013, 10:12 AM
Post #34 of 62 (1924 views)
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Re: [Krip] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Krip wrote:
Beware 2nd hand info

Wasn't there a guy a perris that had landed and a dust devil got to his canopy before he could. The dd reinflated the canopy and went airborn and slammed the dude to the ground hard enough to kill him.

R

Perris and Eloy each had a dust devil fatality that weekend. One of them (I think Perris) was a girl who'd landed safely but was then thrown substantially back into the air (I think I remember it being estimated at something like 50-75 ft). The other was a more "traditional" collapse, somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-300 ft.

Blues,
Dave


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 10:31 AM
Post #35 of 62 (1891 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree with Ian. Also, if you're thinking about cutting away at 300', then you'll actually be cutting away lower than that, because your hand still has to move, even if it's already on the handle.

Not sure what your point is? No one knows exactly what the altitude was and your argument adds less than 15 feet of error to that number. As I pointed out before, you loose less than 100 feet from cutaway until fully deployed reserve so the time it takes to cutaway makes little difference if the starting altitude is 300 feet. If you want to argue that it is safer to just send out more nylon, that's fine by me, but don't argue that the reserve wont have time to open, because it does. I've done the math and even if I use worst case numbers, there is still plenty of margin.
With a skyhook, you of course run the risk of the skyhook disconnecting before pulling the freebag out, in which case you have put yourself in a much worse situation, but that is a different story.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

May 21, 2013, 10:32 AM
Post #36 of 62 (1887 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of interest is this the first fatality at SD?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

May 21, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #37 of 62 (1880 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

Skyhook, or not, I agree with you and believe this is your best chance in this scenario.

Ian

I have had two cutaways with the Skyhook. One was an actual malfunction the other was intentional on the UPT special rig set up to demonstrate the Skyhook system.

On the intentional I was asked to do a lower than normal cutaway so people on the ground could see how the Skyhook worked. I cut away at 1100 feet and after checking the reserve and releasing the brakes I looked at my altimeter which read 990 feet. (I do not recommend ever doing this at this altitude).

The other Skyhook deployment was just as impressive.

Even though I believe the Skyhook can and has made a huge difference in the speed and altitude of getting out the reserve - I concur with people who say that cutting away below 500 feet is a very bad idea.

Please don't think that it's an option - instead get as much fabric over your head as possible.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


rastapara  (Student)

May 21, 2013, 1:01 PM
Post #38 of 62 (1762 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

so how low would you go with a skyhook in an emergency/malfunction?

(fyi I dont jump nor plan jumping a rig with a skyhook, and would go for more nylon with a situation below 1000ft, just pure interest and, to the mod's, excuse me if this is a bit to offtopic)


Shredex

May 21, 2013, 1:18 PM
Post #39 of 62 (1731 views)
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Re: Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Any idea on how a air-lock canopy would fair in a DD?


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 21, 2013, 1:27 PM
Post #40 of 62 (1716 views)
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Re: [Shredex] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be bounced around a lot; it might not collapse, but it would still be subject to being picked up and dropped and/or tipped with the vagaries of the moving column of air, and that would be just as hard to deal with.

Wendy P.


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 2:32 PM
Post #41 of 62 (1687 views)
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Re: [rastapara] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Please don't think that it's an option - instead get as much fabric over your head as possible.

So you are basically saying that Timmy did the wrong thing?


(This post was edited by f94sbu on May 21, 2013, 2:50 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 2:47 PM
Post #42 of 62 (1677 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

f94sbu wrote:
Quote:
Please don't think that it's an option - instead get as much fabric over your head as possible.

So you are basically saying that Timmy did the wrong thing? Interestingly, the stats are not speaking in your favor but that could be an anomaly of course. I have no vested interest in advocating for a Skyhook, but I find it interesting to hear so many comments based on personal opinions, but very little facts to back them up.

Timmy was above 1000 feet according to Ian, who was there.

And apparently, the facts, as are perhaps becoming apparent from Phree's post, are that the fatality in Dubai may have involved a cutaway.


(This post was edited by Remster on May 21, 2013, 2:48 PM)


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 21, 2013, 3:49 PM
Post #43 of 62 (1621 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Timmy was above 1000 feet according to Ian, who was there.

Remster I'ne been trying to follow this please correct me here but do I understand that the THOUGHT now is that he cut away with a sky hook above 1,000 feet and he did NOT get a reserve open?

Thanks


jjudd  (D 31065)

May 21, 2013, 3:54 PM
Post #44 of 62 (1616 views)
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Re: [rastapara] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would confidently cut it with a mal induced in my turn at 600-750' (reading when i look at my alti to choose dump reserve or cutaway) with my skyhook. Thats granted a perfect scenario where i grab red without any difficulty finding my handle. Below 500 is tough to say and that will be my personal choice at the time it happens.

I see no reason not to have a skyhook and or rsl. Its an extra margin for safety and you can still deploy your reserve normally as needed. (for the people that worry about it being hooked up wrong, watch your rigger do it! or get your ticket and pack it yourself) all in all its a individual choice based on how some feels after looking at the pros and cons.

Like all safety devices we dont rely on it but have it as that extra precaution since it will likely beat you at pulling the reserve pin and aids greatly in extracting the reserve quicker


Back to a earlier statement of a person having a reaction time of 15' for a cutaway (from decision to chop to reaching and loacting handle) THATS CRAZY!- loaded at 2.5+ by the time you reach your handle from say 1000 feet you likely will be 100 ft plus lower with a bad mal. Factor in difficulty locating your cutaway and reserve with a chest strap off (using belly band) or long chest strap and it may only be down to dumping your reserve if you find it in time. In terms of high performance when something like this goes bad after everything is stowed and loose its a bad situation. period!


Remember every situation we face is very situationally influenced and that greatly effects the choices each pilot makes. There is no clear this is the way to do it in every malfunction. especially when it happens low. try to train yourself the best you can and never become complacent as no matter how good any of us are we all can find ourselves in the crosshairs.


condolences to the jumper, all his family, and the family at SD


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #45 of 62 (1599 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

mirage62 wrote:
Quote:
Timmy was above 1000 feet according to Ian, who was there.

Remster I'ne been trying to follow this please correct me here but do I understand that the THOUGHT now is that he cut away with a sky hook above 1,000 feet and he did NOT get a reserve open?

Thanks

Yeah... It's confusing....

THIS incident (ie, the Dubai fatality): according to the last post from Phree, it appears he did try and cutaway, and he impacted at line stretch (as opposed to the initial reports of him activating his reserve without cutting away). All I've heard and read still indicates things happening at about 300' (that may change as more info comes out tho)

There is also discussion of the close call a swoop competitor had a while ago (last year?) called Timmy where he cutaway above 1000', and his skyhook got his reserve out in time.


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 4:48 PM
Post #46 of 62 (1564 views)
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Re: [jjudd] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

jjudd wrote:
I would confidently cut it with a mal induced in my turn at 600-750' (reading when i look at my alti to choose dump reserve or cutaway) with my skyhook. Thats granted a perfect scenario where i grab red without any difficulty finding my handle. Below 500 is tough to say and that will be my personal choice at the time it happens.

Like all safety devices we dont rely on it but have it as that extra precaution since it will likely beat you at pulling the reserve pin and aids greatly in extracting the reserve quicker

If you are cutting away at 600 ft you are relying on it.


jjudd  (D 31065)

May 21, 2013, 8:45 PM
Post #47 of 62 (1463 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you are cutting away at 600 ft you are relying on it


Lets not go nit pick out every little detail. Choose to trust your equipment how you want. That said we all rely on our rigger for reserve to open also. Its part of our sport, if you cant trust your equipment why jump.


For me if I have something bad happen im confident i could cutaway at 1000 feet without a skyhook or rsl in a perfect situation. Again that said thats perfect scenario if i didnt have one id be very hesitant to cutaway vs dump my reserve because all it takes is that handle slipping that low to the ground or not being able to find it.

Heres one video thats more then reason enough for me to have a skyhook an or rsl, it would have helped greatly also for this guy that way a split second away from meeting mother earth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZPuc-c_6g

Again make your own choices. Thats my choice that ive practiced 2000+ times in my mind and my trust in my equipment. Hopefully I can mitigate anything well before that but it doesn't hurt to plan what you want to do if your ever there




f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 22, 2013, 1:35 AM
Post #49 of 62 (1360 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is also discussion of the close call a swoop competitor had a while ago (last year?) called Timmy where he cutaway above 1000', and his skyhook got his reserve out in time.

No one said that Timmy cut away above 1000'. Timmy was doing a 450 with a Petra, which collapsed when he was about to do is last 270 of his turn. At this point, he is way lower than 1000'. The canopy threw him around for about 3 seconds before he cutaway. He had an open reserve less than 1.5 seconds later and a _very_ short reserv ride. Anyone who thinks that this was above 1000' has not done their math. I do not know what the altitude was in these two separate incidents, all I said was that a skyhook have saved one person in a similar situation. As none of us were in the air that day, it is not possible for us to say what the right decision was and if the poor jumper just ran out of luck Frown

BSBD


irishrigger  (D 297)

May 22, 2013, 1:43 AM
Post #50 of 62 (1355 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

f94sbu wrote:
irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

I am referring to the videos on the UPT site with from real skydives, not the base jump ones at the end of the the long video. Fwiw, the base jumpers had fully inflated canopies after less than 2 seconds of freefall which is less than 20 meters of altitude loss even without a canopy.

The real skydive videos show reserves open after 3 seconds. 3 seconds of acceleration towards the earth gives you a theoretical maximum altitude loss of 45 meters with no breaking force applied. If your initial velocity towards the ground is 10 m/s, the theoretical max altitude loss is 75 meters.

What you were told 21 years ago probably does not apply to small HP canopies. In most cases I would agree with you that it is better to just get more nylon out, but if your main is just a wildly spinning sub 100sqft canopy, I would guess that the existing nylon is just going to give your reserve a much harder time to inflate and fly properly. That is at least the impression that most of us who witnessed Timmys collapsed Petra has.

I sincerely hope that no one else ever finds himself in this sort of situation.Unsure
i have a wing loading of 2.5 on my main.( i dont think my fat 300lbs ass it be a good idea to jump a sub 100 crossbraced canopyWinkTongue) to be honest i dont know how quick i would react to a situation like this. i have had over 40 cutaways,most on tandems and a lots with skyhook on them. I am a hug fan of the skyhook, i think it is a brilliant device. however there is a possibility that the skyhook can disconnect unintentionally after a cut away, so at 300-400 feet it be to risky for me. i certainly know that a reserve should open within 3 sec, (i have packed over 5000 reserves) however i would question a person reaction time if this happend at 300-400.i think by the time you react to this situation at least 1.5 sec would have passed before you would have pulled the cutaway Pad. so if that ever happend to me i would just dump the reserve, get into a PLF position and start praying and squeeze my cheeks together and hope for the very best.

I think we all agree that none of us want to ever be in a situation like this. how one will deal if it does happen,well this thread has given a lot of thought for people to make there own decision.

bottom line if you are alive at the end of it and not to broken up you have made the correct choice.

Rodger


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