Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013

 


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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May 18, 2013, 8:09 AM
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Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 Can't Post

Reports are coming out that a highly experienced skydiver was fatally injured on a jump in Dubai. The instructor was jumping a cross braced canopy and happened to get caught in turbulent air that lead to the collapse of his canopy. The jumper was doing a 90 degree approach to landing and it seems he flew through a dust devil at around 300 feet, when it was determined his main was not going to re-inflate he tried to pull his reserve also to get more nylon above his head to help. He landed under a partially collapsed main canopy. He was alert on the ground and speaking to first responders but he passed away from his injuries a short time later.









One thing of note on this is that the jumper did not have his family listed as a contact and it seems it took quite a while to track someone down that was able to get in touch his his family to inform them about the situation. Please list the correct person on the waivers and make sure that if you want multiple people contacted you leave that information as well. Putting things like "A doctor" as a contact does not help the situation if you are seriously injured and the DZ needs to contact the family. Also consider putting someone other than your spouse on the form if that person might be on the same plane as you in the case of a plane crash.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

May 18, 2013, 8:57 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh no do you know who?






FB1609  (C 1409)

May 19, 2013, 9:48 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

That's just horrible. Seems like he did everything right, and thought/reacted as fast as humanly possible. Although I don't know who it was, this one really bums me out.


(This post was edited by FB1609 on May 19, 2013, 9:50 AM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

May 19, 2013, 10:10 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for posting the details. This man was my friend. And while I was not in Dubai, I do know that he had been jumping daily. He'd been on that canopy for years and had several hundred jumps on it. Currency was not an issue.

Dust devil @ 300ft? WTF would any of us do...

For those wondering who it was - check the blue skies forum.

D


(This post was edited by Deisel on May 19, 2013, 10:11 AM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 19, 2013, 6:36 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

PhreeZone wrote:
....at around 300 feet, when it was determined his main was not going to re-inflate he tried to pull his reserve also to get more nylon above his head to help...

A truly tragic fatal. Assuming the OP's post is accurate, this jumper did everything right and still died.

This jumper's actions did not save his/her life but it could have. Remember this: at some point, doing ANYTHING is better than doing nothing.


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 19, 2013, 7:57 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if a Skyhook would have saved him, but all the pictures show it deploying from a fully open canopy.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 20, 2013, 1:21 AM
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Re: [BigMark] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

What canopy?

And which DZ? SD Palm, or SD Desert?


freefallcrab  (D 100760)

May 20, 2013, 1:46 AM
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Re: [skydiverek] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Desert :(

Tragic.


DocPop  (C License)

May 20, 2013, 8:46 AM
Post #11 of 62 (5282 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be interested to know what the winds were, because they are pretty conservative at shutting down when the winds get iffy at SD.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 20, 2013, 9:30 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a dust devil that killed Rick Frazier in NV last year. And they've killed many others in our sport over the years. Dust devils are a real wild card in our sport. Unsure


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on May 21, 2013, 5:47 AM)


toolbox  (D 18778)

May 20, 2013, 9:40 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always said that the most dangerous part of the skydive is the last 300 feet to the ground,under a good parachute.
At 300 feet the traffic is bunching up, and 300 feet is where your canopy may not have time to reinflate after a collapse.
300 feet is where you are likely to encounter heavy thermal,and mechanical turbulence,and dustdevils.


yoink

May 20, 2013, 11:14 AM
Post #14 of 62 (5003 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
Dust devils are a real wild card in our sport. Unsure

Absolutely. I hate hearing 'better in dealing with turbulence' as a reason that some people use to make the switch to crossbraced wings.

In big turbulence nothing will save you except luck.

One of the reasons I never jumped in Perris in the afternoons were the dust devils. It continually baffled me seeing people gearing up as dustdevils that could overturn deckchairs tore through the landing area... Unsure


Krip  (Student)

May 20, 2013, 11:19 AM
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Re: [toolbox] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

toolbox wrote:
I've always said that the most dangerous part of the skydive is the last 300 feet to the ground,under a good parachute.
At 300 feet the traffic is bunching up, and 300 feet is where your canopy may not have time to reinflate after a collapse.
300 feet is where you are likely to encounter heavy thermal,and mechanical turbulence,and dustdevils.

Beware 2nd hand info

Wasn't there a guy a perris that had landed and a dust devil got to his canopy before he could. The dd reinflated the canopy and went airborn and slammed the dude to the ground hard enough to kill him.

R


Ron

May 20, 2013, 1:13 PM
Post #16 of 62 (4794 views)
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Re: [BigMark] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wonder if a Skyhook would have saved him,

He did not cutaway, a skyhook would have done nothing. At 300 feet, even with a skyhook dumping the reserve is most likely the best choice of action.

There is not much else this jumper could have done that was not perfect... the only thing might have been not jumping if there were any questions about the wind.

If this jumper is who I think it is.... their judgement was normally very solid.


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 20, 2013, 3:05 PM
Post #17 of 62 (4661 views)
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Re: [Ron] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
He did not cutaway, a skyhook would have done nothing. At 300 feet, even with a skyhook dumping the reserve is most likely the best choice of action.

Timmys cutaway from his collapsed Petra was at a very low altitude. The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I have no idea if the outcome would have been different with a Skyhook, but I would guess that 300 feet would be more than sufficient.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 20, 2013, 3:09 PM
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Re: [Krip] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Krip wrote:

Wasn't there a guy a perris that had landed and a dust devil got to his canopy before he could. The dd reinflated the canopy and went airborn and slammed the dude to the ground hard enough to kill him.
I think I remember that. It certainly DID happen to an Air Force Academy cadet at Colorado Springs in the late 80's or early 90's. One of my coworkers, who had made a few jumps, was working in the control tower and witnessed it. Unsure


yoink

May 20, 2013, 3:29 PM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

JohnMitchell wrote:
Krip wrote:

Wasn't there a guy a perris that had landed and a dust devil got to his canopy before he could. The dd reinflated the canopy and went airborn and slammed the dude to the ground hard enough to kill him.
I think I remember that. It certainly DID happen to an Air Force Academy cadet at Colorado Springs in the late 80's or early 90's. One of my coworkers, who had made a few jumps, was working in the control tower and witnessed it. Unsure


There's this one showing it happening to two paraglider pilots...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iBjqFJsraM

If that isn't some scary shit I don't know what is... Unsure








freefallcrab  (D 100760)

May 21, 2013, 12:22 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be interested to know what the winds were, because they are pretty conservative at shutting down when the winds get iffy at SD

The accident was on Lift 2 (IIRC), I was on the first lift. The wind speed wasn't a factor. You are right about the DZ being conservative - there is a lot of student training at this DZ and safety is always at the front of their minds. We were not on a student hold for winds at that stage of the day. There was a light steady breeze - it was neither dead calm nor blowing close to or out of limits.


irishrigger  (D 297)

May 21, 2013, 3:07 AM
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 21, 2013, 5:15 AM
Post #25 of 62 (3923 views)
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Re: [irishrigger] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

Skyhook, or not, I agree with you and believe this is your best chance in this scenario.

Ian


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 6:41 AM
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Re: [irishrigger] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

I am referring to the videos on the UPT site with from real skydives, not the base jump ones at the end of the the long video. Fwiw, the base jumpers had fully inflated canopies after less than 2 seconds of freefall which is less than 20 meters of altitude loss even without a canopy.

The real skydive videos show reserves open after 3 seconds. 3 seconds of acceleration towards the earth gives you a theoretical maximum altitude loss of 45 meters with no breaking force applied. If your initial velocity towards the ground is 10 m/s, the theoretical max altitude loss is 75 meters.

What you were told 21 years ago probably does not apply to small HP canopies. In most cases I would agree with you that it is better to just get more nylon out, but if your main is just a wildly spinning sub 100sqft canopy, I would guess that the existing nylon is just going to give your reserve a much harder time to inflate and fly properly. That is at least the impression that most of us who witnessed Timmys collapsed Petra has.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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May 21, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #27 of 62 (2104 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll reiterate. It's my belief, skyhook or not, that a 300 foot cutaway is a bad idea.

It's a shit situation to be in, no matter how you cut it, but your best option is getting as much nylon over your head as possible.

Quote:
That is at least the impression that most of us who witnessed Timmys collapsed Petra has

Timmy's collapse was well higher than 300 feet. It was in the beginning of his 450 executed well over 1000 feet. Sure, it was low, but you can't compare the two.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 21, 2013, 8:10 AM)


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

May 21, 2013, 8:41 AM
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Re: [yoink] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

>One of the reasons I never jumped in Perris in the afternoons were the dust devils. It continually baffled me >seeing people gearing up as dustdevils that could overturn deckchairs tore through the landing area...

Having worked at both Elsinore and Perris for many years I always thought Perris was safer in terms of dust devils. Although Perris has more of them and it seems much larger ones...there is so much dirt around Perris that you can almost always see them. There is nothing worse than a dust devil you can't see.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 21, 2013, 9:00 AM
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Re: [rmarshall234] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you on this one.

Few years ago in Z-hills I watched Tony Uragallo do a rather impressive job of surviving and handling a dust devil that tried to smack him when he was 20 - maybe 30 ft above the ground.

There were no squirrely winds, no other dust devils, just that one.

Weird. Scary.


pms07  (D 7571)

May 21, 2013, 9:23 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think I remember that. It certainly DID happen to an Air Force Academy cadet at Colorado Springs in the late 80's or early 90's. One of my coworkers, who had made a few jumps, was working in the control tower and witnessed it. Unsure

I don't think that is correct John. The only fatality at AFA in that era was Captain Mike Dionne in May 84 and it was not a dust devil, but rather mountain rotor coming over the Front Range. Two canopies were in the air and both collapsed and reinflated multiple times, gaining and losing hundreds of feet in altitude, before Mike hit the ground. Mikes canopy was collapsed and actually hit the ground before he did. I recall it well as I was on the load and Mike was good friend. Who was your buddy in the tower, I may know him or her?

Pat


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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May 21, 2013, 9:57 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told some of these details might have been inaccurate and was asked to post that it seems that the jumper did try to cutaway and did have a skyhook but ended up landing at line stretch of his reserve. More details on this are expected after the DZ assists in getting the jumper back to his home.


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 21, 2013, 10:01 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Ian. Also, if you're thinking about cutting away at 300', then you'll actually be cutting away lower than that, because your hand still has to move, even if it's already on the handle.

Wendy P.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 21, 2013, 10:07 AM
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Re: [pms07] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

pms07 wrote:
Quote:
I think I remember that. It certainly DID happen to an Air Force Academy cadet at Colorado Springs in the late 80's or early 90's. One of my coworkers, who had made a few jumps, was working in the control tower and witnessed it. Unsure

I don't think that is correct John. The only fatality at AFA in that era was Captain Mike Dionne in May 84 and it was not a dust devil, but rather mountain rotor coming over the Front Range. Two canopies were in the air and both collapsed and reinflated multiple times, gaining and losing hundreds of feet in altitude, before Mike hit the ground. Mikes canopy was collapsed and actually hit the ground before he did. I recall it well as I was on the load and Mike was good friend. Who was your buddy in the tower, I may know him or her?
Airman Rhon Grant, currently with the FAA.


livendive  (D 21415)

May 21, 2013, 10:12 AM
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Re: [Krip] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Krip wrote:
Beware 2nd hand info

Wasn't there a guy a perris that had landed and a dust devil got to his canopy before he could. The dd reinflated the canopy and went airborn and slammed the dude to the ground hard enough to kill him.

R

Perris and Eloy each had a dust devil fatality that weekend. One of them (I think Perris) was a girl who'd landed safely but was then thrown substantially back into the air (I think I remember it being estimated at something like 50-75 ft). The other was a more "traditional" collapse, somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-300 ft.

Blues,
Dave


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 10:31 AM
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Re: [wmw999] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree with Ian. Also, if you're thinking about cutting away at 300', then you'll actually be cutting away lower than that, because your hand still has to move, even if it's already on the handle.

Not sure what your point is? No one knows exactly what the altitude was and your argument adds less than 15 feet of error to that number. As I pointed out before, you loose less than 100 feet from cutaway until fully deployed reserve so the time it takes to cutaway makes little difference if the starting altitude is 300 feet. If you want to argue that it is safer to just send out more nylon, that's fine by me, but don't argue that the reserve wont have time to open, because it does. I've done the math and even if I use worst case numbers, there is still plenty of margin.
With a skyhook, you of course run the risk of the skyhook disconnecting before pulling the freebag out, in which case you have put yourself in a much worse situation, but that is a different story.


CornishChris  (C 102981)

May 21, 2013, 10:32 AM
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of interest is this the first fatality at SD?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

May 21, 2013, 10:34 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

Skyhook, or not, I agree with you and believe this is your best chance in this scenario.

Ian

I have had two cutaways with the Skyhook. One was an actual malfunction the other was intentional on the UPT special rig set up to demonstrate the Skyhook system.

On the intentional I was asked to do a lower than normal cutaway so people on the ground could see how the Skyhook worked. I cut away at 1100 feet and after checking the reserve and releasing the brakes I looked at my altimeter which read 990 feet. (I do not recommend ever doing this at this altitude).

The other Skyhook deployment was just as impressive.

Even though I believe the Skyhook can and has made a huge difference in the speed and altitude of getting out the reserve - I concur with people who say that cutting away below 500 feet is a very bad idea.

Please don't think that it's an option - instead get as much fabric over your head as possible.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


rastapara  (Student)

May 21, 2013, 1:01 PM
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Re: [Skydivesg] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

so how low would you go with a skyhook in an emergency/malfunction?

(fyi I dont jump nor plan jumping a rig with a skyhook, and would go for more nylon with a situation below 1000ft, just pure interest and, to the mod's, excuse me if this is a bit to offtopic)


Shredex

May 21, 2013, 1:18 PM
Post #39 of 62 (1739 views)
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Re: Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Any idea on how a air-lock canopy would fair in a DD?


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 21, 2013, 1:27 PM
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Re: [Shredex] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be bounced around a lot; it might not collapse, but it would still be subject to being picked up and dropped and/or tipped with the vagaries of the moving column of air, and that would be just as hard to deal with.

Wendy P.


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 2:32 PM
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Re: [rastapara] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Please don't think that it's an option - instead get as much fabric over your head as possible.

So you are basically saying that Timmy did the wrong thing?


(This post was edited by f94sbu on May 21, 2013, 2:50 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 2:47 PM
Post #42 of 62 (1685 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

f94sbu wrote:
Quote:
Please don't think that it's an option - instead get as much fabric over your head as possible.

So you are basically saying that Timmy did the wrong thing? Interestingly, the stats are not speaking in your favor but that could be an anomaly of course. I have no vested interest in advocating for a Skyhook, but I find it interesting to hear so many comments based on personal opinions, but very little facts to back them up.

Timmy was above 1000 feet according to Ian, who was there.

And apparently, the facts, as are perhaps becoming apparent from Phree's post, are that the fatality in Dubai may have involved a cutaway.


(This post was edited by Remster on May 21, 2013, 2:48 PM)


mirage62  (C 15580)

May 21, 2013, 3:49 PM
Post #43 of 62 (1629 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Timmy was above 1000 feet according to Ian, who was there.

Remster I'ne been trying to follow this please correct me here but do I understand that the THOUGHT now is that he cut away with a sky hook above 1,000 feet and he did NOT get a reserve open?

Thanks


jjudd  (D 31065)

May 21, 2013, 3:54 PM
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Re: [rastapara] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would confidently cut it with a mal induced in my turn at 600-750' (reading when i look at my alti to choose dump reserve or cutaway) with my skyhook. Thats granted a perfect scenario where i grab red without any difficulty finding my handle. Below 500 is tough to say and that will be my personal choice at the time it happens.

I see no reason not to have a skyhook and or rsl. Its an extra margin for safety and you can still deploy your reserve normally as needed. (for the people that worry about it being hooked up wrong, watch your rigger do it! or get your ticket and pack it yourself) all in all its a individual choice based on how some feels after looking at the pros and cons.

Like all safety devices we dont rely on it but have it as that extra precaution since it will likely beat you at pulling the reserve pin and aids greatly in extracting the reserve quicker


Back to a earlier statement of a person having a reaction time of 15' for a cutaway (from decision to chop to reaching and loacting handle) THATS CRAZY!- loaded at 2.5+ by the time you reach your handle from say 1000 feet you likely will be 100 ft plus lower with a bad mal. Factor in difficulty locating your cutaway and reserve with a chest strap off (using belly band) or long chest strap and it may only be down to dumping your reserve if you find it in time. In terms of high performance when something like this goes bad after everything is stowed and loose its a bad situation. period!


Remember every situation we face is very situationally influenced and that greatly effects the choices each pilot makes. There is no clear this is the way to do it in every malfunction. especially when it happens low. try to train yourself the best you can and never become complacent as no matter how good any of us are we all can find ourselves in the crosshairs.


condolences to the jumper, all his family, and the family at SD


Premier Remster  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #45 of 62 (1607 views)
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Re: [mirage62] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

mirage62 wrote:
Quote:
Timmy was above 1000 feet according to Ian, who was there.

Remster I'ne been trying to follow this please correct me here but do I understand that the THOUGHT now is that he cut away with a sky hook above 1,000 feet and he did NOT get a reserve open?

Thanks

Yeah... It's confusing....

THIS incident (ie, the Dubai fatality): according to the last post from Phree, it appears he did try and cutaway, and he impacted at line stretch (as opposed to the initial reports of him activating his reserve without cutting away). All I've heard and read still indicates things happening at about 300' (that may change as more info comes out tho)

There is also discussion of the close call a swoop competitor had a while ago (last year?) called Timmy where he cutaway above 1000', and his skyhook got his reserve out in time.


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 4:48 PM
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Re: [jjudd] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

jjudd wrote:
I would confidently cut it with a mal induced in my turn at 600-750' (reading when i look at my alti to choose dump reserve or cutaway) with my skyhook. Thats granted a perfect scenario where i grab red without any difficulty finding my handle. Below 500 is tough to say and that will be my personal choice at the time it happens.

Like all safety devices we dont rely on it but have it as that extra precaution since it will likely beat you at pulling the reserve pin and aids greatly in extracting the reserve quicker

If you are cutting away at 600 ft you are relying on it.


jjudd  (D 31065)

May 21, 2013, 8:45 PM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you are cutting away at 600 ft you are relying on it


Lets not go nit pick out every little detail. Choose to trust your equipment how you want. That said we all rely on our rigger for reserve to open also. Its part of our sport, if you cant trust your equipment why jump.


For me if I have something bad happen im confident i could cutaway at 1000 feet without a skyhook or rsl in a perfect situation. Again that said thats perfect scenario if i didnt have one id be very hesitant to cutaway vs dump my reserve because all it takes is that handle slipping that low to the ground or not being able to find it.

Heres one video thats more then reason enough for me to have a skyhook an or rsl, it would have helped greatly also for this guy that way a split second away from meeting mother earth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZPuc-c_6g

Again make your own choices. Thats my choice that ive practiced 2000+ times in my mind and my trust in my equipment. Hopefully I can mitigate anything well before that but it doesn't hurt to plan what you want to do if your ever there




f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 22, 2013, 1:35 AM
Post #49 of 62 (1368 views)
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Re: [Remster] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is also discussion of the close call a swoop competitor had a while ago (last year?) called Timmy where he cutaway above 1000', and his skyhook got his reserve out in time.

No one said that Timmy cut away above 1000'. Timmy was doing a 450 with a Petra, which collapsed when he was about to do is last 270 of his turn. At this point, he is way lower than 1000'. The canopy threw him around for about 3 seconds before he cutaway. He had an open reserve less than 1.5 seconds later and a _very_ short reserv ride. Anyone who thinks that this was above 1000' has not done their math. I do not know what the altitude was in these two separate incidents, all I said was that a skyhook have saved one person in a similar situation. As none of us were in the air that day, it is not possible for us to say what the right decision was and if the poor jumper just ran out of luck Frown

BSBD


irishrigger  (D 297)

May 22, 2013, 1:43 AM
Post #50 of 62 (1363 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

f94sbu wrote:
irishrigger wrote:
The promo videos from UPT shows reserves deploying with less than 150 feet of altitude loss.

I think that promo you are talking about is a bit misleading. yes they did cut away from about 100-150 feet, but the reserve they used was packed with the slider down so that it would open faster.

also i don't know if i had the guts to cut away around 300 feet even if i had a skyhook. call me old fashioned but i was told 21 years ago that below 500 feet you try to keep as much nylon above you as possible. i would also pulled the reserve only at that height.

Rodger

I am referring to the videos on the UPT site with from real skydives, not the base jump ones at the end of the the long video. Fwiw, the base jumpers had fully inflated canopies after less than 2 seconds of freefall which is less than 20 meters of altitude loss even without a canopy.

The real skydive videos show reserves open after 3 seconds. 3 seconds of acceleration towards the earth gives you a theoretical maximum altitude loss of 45 meters with no breaking force applied. If your initial velocity towards the ground is 10 m/s, the theoretical max altitude loss is 75 meters.

What you were told 21 years ago probably does not apply to small HP canopies. In most cases I would agree with you that it is better to just get more nylon out, but if your main is just a wildly spinning sub 100sqft canopy, I would guess that the existing nylon is just going to give your reserve a much harder time to inflate and fly properly. That is at least the impression that most of us who witnessed Timmys collapsed Petra has.

I sincerely hope that no one else ever finds himself in this sort of situation.Unsure
i have a wing loading of 2.5 on my main.( i dont think my fat 300lbs ass it be a good idea to jump a sub 100 crossbraced canopyWinkTongue) to be honest i dont know how quick i would react to a situation like this. i have had over 40 cutaways,most on tandems and a lots with skyhook on them. I am a hug fan of the skyhook, i think it is a brilliant device. however there is a possibility that the skyhook can disconnect unintentionally after a cut away, so at 300-400 feet it be to risky for me. i certainly know that a reserve should open within 3 sec, (i have packed over 5000 reserves) however i would question a person reaction time if this happend at 300-400.i think by the time you react to this situation at least 1.5 sec would have passed before you would have pulled the cutaway Pad. so if that ever happend to me i would just dump the reserve, get into a PLF position and start praying and squeeze my cheeks together and hope for the very best.

I think we all agree that none of us want to ever be in a situation like this. how one will deal if it does happen,well this thread has given a lot of thought for people to make there own decision.

bottom line if you are alive at the end of it and not to broken up you have made the correct choice.

Rodger


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 22, 2013, 5:56 AM
Post #51 of 62 (2371 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
No one said that Timmy cut away above 1000'.

I did. Granted it might have been below 1000 feet when he actually cut away, but it wasn't by a lot. Everything considered the time his main was cutaway he was probably in the 750 range. That is totally a guess though based on timing, and turn initiation altitude.

Quote:
which collapsed when he was about to do is last 270 of his turn.

Not true. It collapsed just as he approached the end of his first 90 degrees. I've watched the video a lot.

Quote:
At this point, he is way lower than 1000'.
Highly unlikley. Timmy has one of the nicest turns out there. Very long, diving turn, starting from much higher than 1000ft on the Petra. He was very likely around 1000 feet when it actually collapsed, maybe 900.

Quote:
The canopy threw him around for about 3 seconds before he cutaway.

Agreed. And I'd expect he lost a good 200-300 feet here. Putting the actual cutaway in the 600 foot region. Compare that to the OP incident at 300 feet. Way too close of a margin to be thinking about cutting away instead of just pulling silver. Remember partially collapsed main is better than linestretch in a reserve.

Quote:
all I said was that a skyhook have saved one person in a similar situation. As none of us were in the air that day, it is not possible for us to say what the right decision was and if the poor jumper just ran out of luck Frown

100% agree. It's very easy for us all to armchair quarterback. I believe wholeheartedly that Lenn did everything he felt he could. It was a lose/lose situation.

The point I'm trying to address is that relying on the skyhook at 300 feet (cutaway) is still flipping a coin. It's also worth noting that firing the reserve into a collapsed spinning main is flipping the coin too. Both are shit situations and Lenn got a raw deal. MY opinion is that at that altitude the more material the better, but no matter what you're likely going to be having a hospital stay as a best case scenario.

BSBD
Ian

Edit: Hope this is coming across as a discussion, it's all I intend it to be. Not an argument Cool


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on May 22, 2013, 6:00 AM)


Deisel  (D 31661)

May 22, 2013, 8:05 AM
Post #52 of 62 (2293 views)
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Re: [irishrigger] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D


TangBu  (C 102574)

May 22, 2013, 10:44 AM
Post #53 of 62 (2201 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

There's the student who cut away at ~200 feet at Chicago:

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Deisel  (D 31661)

May 22, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #54 of 62 (2111 views)
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Re: [TangBu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for posting that. He survived, but certainly didn't walk away under his own power.

By proving this I mean in the scientific sense of hypothesis - theory - law. We have a hypothesis but I highly doubt that this event is repeatable enough to create a sound thoery, and certainly not law.

Maybe this is one for the parachute testers to work on. Or have they already and there are results floating about out there. I'd love to see them if anyone would like to share.


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

May 22, 2013, 5:14 PM
Post #55 of 62 (2037 views)
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Re: [TangBu] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

TangBu wrote:
Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

There's the student who cut away at ~200 feet at Chicago:

It was more like 300 feet, but I wouldn't try it myself. Had he not been on the west side of the runway where the ground slopes down, he would not have been so lucky.


robinheid  (D 5533)

May 22, 2013, 5:17 PM
Post #56 of 62 (2034 views)
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Re: [Deisel] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

yes. Me. From 250 feet. 8+ second reserve ride.

Back in 1992 IIRC, at the Freefall Convention, mike McGowan filming from above and behind, someone else filming from the ground. Still pix were published in Skydiving Magazine (weird side-note: no horizon visible, just green) and the video is in one of mike's skydiving films.)

Rig was a Sorcerer, a 2-parachute BASE rig with the hand deploy BASE version of the skyhook. I cut away a perfectly open and straight-flying main at 250 feet. System worked as advertised. Had a 180 on reserve opening and got it turned around in time to make a nice standup landing.

Obviously, controlled conditions, prior planning, waiting until just the right moment to go, so everything had a much greater probability of working perfectly.

Plus, my descent rate at the time I chopped was 15fps or thereabouts, so all those discussions about reaction time and pull-to-deployment distance are very different than for the two cutaways being discussed here, which involved far higher rates of descent.

Knowing what I know from my experience, I would probably not cut away but do the least worst thing - grab silver and hope to get some more square footage into the air above me before I landed.

Frown
44


Jvx  (D License)

May 25, 2013, 1:15 AM
Post #57 of 62 (1670 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Southern_Man wrote:
jjudd wrote:
I would confidently cut it with a mal induced in my turn at 600-750' (reading when i look at my alti to choose dump reserve or cutaway) with my skyhook. Thats granted a perfect scenario where i grab red without any difficulty finding my handle. Below 500 is tough to say and that will be my personal choice at the time it happens.

Like all safety devices we dont rely on it but have it as that extra precaution since it will likely beat you at pulling the reserve pin and aids greatly in extracting the reserve quicker

If you are cutting away at 600 ft you are relying on it.


Do we know a name yet???


FB1609  (C 1409)

May 25, 2013, 7:53 AM
Post #58 of 62 (1573 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

robinheid wrote:
I cut away a perfectly open and straight-flying main at 250 feet. System worked as advertised.
44

Base rig or not, consider your last 30+ years of life a bonus!


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 25, 2013, 9:31 AM
Post #59 of 62 (1526 views)
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Re: [Jvx] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Lenn Taylor (see blue skies forum)


sebcat  (D 22826)

May 28, 2013, 1:46 AM
Post #60 of 62 (1101 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding skyhooks.
Skyhooks are A Good Thing. But the margin they give you is so small you might as well have lost it before you decided to pull silver. I believe it was strong who released comparisons between MARD deployments and canopy transfers? Everyone should see this video. If anyone knows where I can find it, I'd be grateful.

A lot of fabric will be a much better all-round choice than a skyhook safety wise. But I've seen people jumping small canopies who just don't understand why you don't already own a SkyHook(tm) and this pisses me of. Safety is not a product, it's the sum of your choices.

Regarding this particular incident, if you want to jump where there's potential for dust devils and thermals, you're increasing your risk exposure. This is fine by me, I'd do the same. But it's not about having a skyhook or not having a skyhook in those circumstances, it's about jumping or not jumping. You can never predict when a dust devil will form.

robinheid wrote:
Deisel wrote:
Has there ever been a case of someone surviving a cut away from 300'?

I have no real data but I've not seen it. So until it's proven, I will not be cuting anything away below my own personal hard deck, only getting more nylon out over my head.

D

yes. Me. From 250 feet. 8+ second reserve ride.
Reserve wasn't slider up, I take it?


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 28, 2013, 2:38 AM
Post #61 of 62 (1067 views)
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Re: [robinheid] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Robin: was the reserve packed slider-up or slider-down?


Deyan  (D 322)

May 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
Post #62 of 62 (723 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Fatality - Dubai - 17 May 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was told some of these details might have been inaccurate and was asked to post that it seems that the jumper did try to cutaway and did have a skyhook but ended up landing at line stretch of his reserve

Do you know if the lanyard was still on the hook when they found the canopy?



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