Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Why I don't hook up my RSL

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 19, 2013, 8:02 PM
Post #26 of 63 (2015 views)
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Re: [BigMark] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>As seen from someone who has money for an AAD.

That's sorta not the point. The mistake is not thinking "I can't afford an AAD so I should connect my RSL" - that is indeed a good idea. The mistake is "if I have an AAD I can disconnect my RSL." I can think of at least two people who died at a WFFC who thought the same thing - and whose AAD did not save them from going in.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 19, 2013, 8:28 PM
Post #27 of 63 (2008 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Fully agree with you brother.
On the types of jumps you listed.

I'm personally in the habit of disco'ing my RSL on tandem and sport jumps after opening.


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 19, 2013, 11:34 PM
Post #28 of 63 (1977 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you kidding me, that's the whole point, do you know how many jumpers want to spend $200 for a used AAD?


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 20, 2013, 5:26 AM
Post #29 of 63 (1922 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a lousy analogy at all. The statistics VASTLY demonstrate that an RSL, like a seatbelt, is a far better option that not having one.

No analogy at all, just plain statistics. And you and I started jumping at the same time, 1980 or so, and therefore you must actually remember why we put RSLs there in the first place.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 5:37 AM
Post #30 of 63 (1907 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

tkhayes wrote:
Not a lousy analogy at all. The statistics VASTLY demonstrate that an RSL, like a seatbelt, is a far better option that not having one.

No analogy at all, just plain statistics. And you and I started jumping at the same time, 1980 or so, and therefore you must actually remember why we put RSLs there in the first place.

It's a good analogy if we were all just 'driving cars' in the sport, however some of us use a motorcycle, bus or a pogo stick. Seat Belts would be impractical on a Harley...Wink

One size doesn't fit all...if it did we'd all have an SOS.


DocPop  (C License)

May 20, 2013, 8:50 AM
Post #31 of 63 (1833 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
crotalus01 wrote:
The main reason mine is disconnected is I do a lot of altitude pulls and CRW. However, now that I no longer have an AAD I am probably going to start hooking it up for freefall jumps.

Okay, this logic I don't get. Can you explain why you think that an RSL is a good substitute for an AAD?

While they are mostly for different scenarios, the are both aids to getting a reserve out and there is some overlap between them.

There are situations when either would be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #32 of 63 (1826 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There are situations when either would might be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.


Depending on how low you pull that cutaway handle, I wouldn't count on the AAD firing if you can't find the handle.

Others have made the point I was trying to make (but I wanted to hear crotalus01's logic, which is why I posed it in the form of a question): evaluating whether to use an AAD or to use an RSL ought to be independent decisions because they don't address the same failure modes. (And to address the person who commented about cost, of course cost can be a factor in evaluating whether to add any piece of non-mandatory gear).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on May 20, 2013, 8:56 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 20, 2013, 8:57 AM
Post #33 of 63 (1823 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>There are situations when either would be beneficial - e.g. have just
>cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.

Your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases like this even if you cut away fairly high (1500 feet or so.) Several fatalities have occurred when people cut away and did not pull their reserves. They had AAD's but no RSL's - and the AAD's did not fire in time.

To repeat - your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases if you cut away and can't pull the reserve.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 20, 2013, 9:12 AM
Post #34 of 63 (1810 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like the old timers like to split hairs on this forum and look for exceptions and completely miss the point by trying to show how their exceptions makes the difference.

Sadly a new or inexperienced skydiver will not understand and get confused by this unnecessary noise.

If you are new, inexperienced and learning, which after 30 years, I still feel like I am, get and use an RSL. You are not doing CREW, shooting video or a tandem. Go with the odds... You are average and not exceptional like most of us.

In fact, get a Sky Hook, it probably saved my life!


(This post was edited by danornan on May 20, 2013, 9:15 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 10:07 AM
Post #35 of 63 (1777 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
Seems like the old timers like to split hairs on this forum and look for exceptions and completely miss the point by trying to show how their exceptions makes the difference.

Sadly a new or inexperienced skydiver will not understand and get confused by this unnecessary noise.

If you are new, inexperienced and learning, which after 30 years, I still feel like I am, get and use an RSL. You are not doing CREW, shooting video or a tandem. Go with the odds... You are average and not exceptional like most of us.

In fact, get a Sky Hook, it probably saved my life!

Thought from some more "old timers":

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4220324#4220324

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4220324#4220324

RSLs and MARDs have significant downsides. I think it is better to be educated when making that decision than not.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 20, 2013, 10:55 AM
Post #36 of 63 (1755 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

OK - So you would suggest that a new skydiver not have an RSL, (or skyhook) even though, over the years, there have been incidents just about EVERY YEAR of skydivers cutting away and not pulling the reserve in time!

There are always exceptions, but to continue to look at them as the rule just does not pass the common sense test.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

May 20, 2013, 11:05 AM
Post #37 of 63 (1749 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
OK - So you would suggest that a new skydiver not have an RSL, (or skyhook) even though, over the years, there have been incidents just about EVERY YEAR of skydivers cutting away and not pulling the reserve in time!

There are always exceptions, but to continue to look at them as the rule just does not pass the common sense test.

In sundevil's defense, you didn't read the /his first post in the thread.

Paraphrasing, he says, "I know that the statistics numbers are against me, and I don't recommend any newbs following my lead. In fact, I realize that I may have increased my odds of death in skydiving by removing my RSL, but I am doing it anyway."

I have to respect that, he is not being hubristic, "it won't happen to me." argument. He is basically saying "I would rather die from my own failings than some freak gear error".

Seth


sundevil777  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 11:32 AM
Post #38 of 63 (1718 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
OK - So you would suggest that a new skydiver not have an RS

I did not do that.

Sundevil "disconnecting my RSL since my student days with gut gear" 777


DocPop  (C License)

May 20, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #39 of 63 (1713 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
Quote:
There are situations when either would might be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.

Fair edit!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 20, 2013, 1:15 PM
Post #40 of 63 (1685 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
uberchris wrote:
the reason for using my RSL is just numbers:

there are more people that have died from not having an RSL hooked up and pounding in, than there are pounding in directly because of having an RSL and issues that arose from it.

In the case of people who die without an RSL, it is usually from low EP's - skydiver error, plain and simple. In the case of people who die with an RSL, it's often from an RSL induced mal.

Big difference and not really comparable as stats to make a stat-based decision.

They are still dead, regardless of the reason.

You have quite a grasp of the obvious. Crazy


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 20, 2013, 3:35 PM
Post #41 of 63 (1619 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer - I never said or implied that the RSL was a good substitute for an AAD. I no longer have an AAD because my Cypres timed out on my last repack and had to be removed. Vigil has pretty much killed the used AAD market since they have a 20 year lifespan, and I dont have $1200 laying around to buy a new one (unfortunately). My reason for hooking the RSL back up is silly - I would rather have some safety backup than none (even though they serve very different functions for very different scenarios. I realize an RSL will not help in a potential Cypres fire type scenario and vice versa).
Of course, the RSL will still be detached on CRW jumps...


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 20, 2013, 3:47 PM
Post #42 of 63 (1606 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
Vigil has pretty much killed the used AAD market since they have a 20 year lifespan

How so?


FB1609  (C 1409)

May 20, 2013, 7:48 PM
Post #43 of 63 (1554 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>
To repeat - your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases if you cut away and can't pull the reserve.

You'd think someone could develop one that is smarter really


(This post was edited by FB1609 on May 20, 2013, 7:50 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

May 20, 2013, 8:53 PM
Post #44 of 63 (1534 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Or maybe those sorts of individuals shouldn't even be skydiving.
If you HAVE to depend on technology to save your ass, you have no business skydiving IMO.


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 20, 2013, 10:21 PM
Post #45 of 63 (1513 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
NWFlyer - I never said or implied that the RSL was a good substitute for an AAD. I no longer have an AAD because my Cypres timed out on my last repack and had to be removed. Vigil has pretty much killed the used AAD market since they have a 20 year lifespan, and I dont have $1200 laying around to buy a new one (unfortunately). My reason for hooking the RSL back up is silly - I would rather have some safety backup than none (even though they serve very different functions for very different scenarios. I realize an RSL will not help in a potential Cypres fire type scenario and vice versa).
Of course, the RSL will still be detached on CRW jumps...

Sly


JackC1

May 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
Post #46 of 63 (1488 views)
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Re: [normiss] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
If you HAVE to depend on technology to save your ass, you have no business skydiving IMO.

LaughLaughLaugh This one always cracks me up.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 21, 2013, 4:36 AM
Post #47 of 63 (1454 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Noone is selling used Vigils because they are within 4 or less years of timing out like they did with Cypres. I have been looking at the classifieds AAD board for months now and have yet to see any used anything for sale other than Argus...


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 21, 2013, 4:44 AM
Post #48 of 63 (1449 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

You can invent them. The problem is that the more complex you make them, the more testing they require, the more failure modes there are (which means that the users have to think about them also), and the more expensive they are.

For safety equipment, personally I prefer it to be as simple as possible, because then I have fewer complex failure modes to think about.

Wendy P.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2013, 4:52 AM
Post #49 of 63 (1437 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
Noone is selling used Vigils because they are within 4 or less years of timing out like they did with Cypres. I have been looking at the classifieds AAD board for months now and have yet to see any used anything for sale other than Argus...

That's a 2-way street. By the same token that a used Vigil will cost more and be less available, it will also hold its value better and last longer when YOU own it.

It's a wash unless you just want a cheap price and an AAD that will time out and need replaced sooner.


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

May 21, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #50 of 63 (1402 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:


Your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases like this even if you cut away fairly high (1500 feet or so.) Several fatalities have occurred when people cut away and did not pull their reserves. They had AAD's but no RSL's - and the AAD's did not fire in time.

Thanks for posting this. I assume that a AAD will not fire under this scenario because the skydiver has not re accelerated, however rather than me assume could you point me towards a source of information that would help be get more educated on this.

Thanks.


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