Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Why I don't hook up my RSL

 


sundevil777  (D License)

May 16, 2013, 11:10 PM
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Why I don't hook up my RSL Can't Post

I think this topic deserves some serious, thoughtful discussion away from the Deland incident thread.

First, I think it is important that newbies use an RSL. Until a person has proven they can not only chop but also pull their reserve (perhaps even more than once) it is too great a risk.

Many of my reasons to not use an RSL involve concern about very low probability events. I recognize this. I can accept myself failing to pull my own reserve, but I don't like being subject to the potential problems that an RSL can cause, even if they will probably be less likely than my own failure (even if they are certainly less likely than my own failure).

My reasons do not involve a worry about reserve line twists. It is my opinion that line twists on reserves largely are due to the bag being extracted while not stable therefore imparting an unusual kick to the bag as it leaves the container. This does not mean that I advocate waiting to get stable before pulling reserve (I have never waited), but I like the idea of having that as an option without having to find and release an RSL shackle.

I don't loosen my chest strap, so I don't have my reserve handle moving on me. I use a metal reserve handle and one hand on each handle method, so I find the handle before chopping.

I like to keep things simple, and there are failure modes that I don't like being subject to that involve an RSL.

An RSL can get snagged pulling the reserve even before the main is out.

Even though I use wide risers, I don't like the idea of a single riser failure causing my reserve to be deployed.

I don't like having my main attached to me by another mechanism besides the risers, as the RSL could get hung up on something preventing a normal cutaway.

If I have a canopy collision/entanglement, you can't be sure that the entanglement will clear right away after chopping. If I have a 2 out situation, I would want to release the RSL (if I were using an RSL) before cutting away the main, as the RSL shackle can snag any part of the reserve on the way out, and I would not want to have to mess with releasing the shackle in either a collision/entanglement or 2 out scenario.

There are probably some other reasons I've not thought of right now.

I know that the numbers say an RSL is more likely to help than hurt. I've read Rick Horn's incident and understand the implications.

I do not wish to influence newbies to not use an RSL. Flame on...


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on May 16, 2013, 11:17 PM)


BIGUN  (D 23385)

May 17, 2013, 2:49 AM
Post #2 of 63 (5865 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

This was done in 2002, 2005, 2010, 2012....


http://www.dropzone.com/...ring=rsl%20;#4413205


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

May 17, 2013, 4:51 AM
Post #3 of 63 (5801 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I do not wish to influence newbies to not use an RSL. Flame on...

However, by making this post....you just did!


Divalent  (C 40494)

May 17, 2013, 6:28 AM
Post #4 of 63 (5736 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO, you are raising very rare complicating scenarios where an RSL could contribute to a fatality (like, less than 1 in several million on any given skydive; such as an RSL snag causing a premature reserve deployment: exactly how many fatalites have been due to that?) but ignoring the upside.

As Diablo pilot stated in the thread Bigun linked to, the number of fatalities due to these failure modes over the last couple of decades is incredibly few relative to the several fataliies that occur every year that might have been helped by an RSL.

Yes, your gear and your experience and your usual proceedures and techniques might make you less likely to need one. But I suspect some of the many who did die because they didn't have one also thought that as well.


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 17, 2013, 7:12 AM
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Re: [Divalent] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Either way, no one is well served by having information hidden from them. However, included in that information is the likelihood of its happening.

I'm from the days when only students used Stevens systems (that should date me if nothing else Laugh). I've proven entirely too repeatedly that I can use my reserve. When I got back into jumping a number of years ago, I immediately had the RSL taken off the rig I bought.

Then I put it back on again a couple of years after that. To me, the biggest reason to have an RSL isn't to ensure that the reserve is pulled. The biggest reason is to ensure that in the event I mess around with my main when I shouldn't I have a little bit more effective altitude in my pocket. I haven't done that, I hope I don't. But after a couple of low-cutaway incidents a number of years ago, I decided that was the most likely RSL-involved situation I was likely to find myself in. People do, in fact, mess around with almost-fixable mains for too long -- it happens a couple of times each year, and often one of those is fatal. I'm sure none of those people intended to mess around with their almost-fixable main for too long, it just happened.

It's not a serious enough consideration for me to get a Skyhook, nor is it a serious enough consideration for me to start opening at 4,000 feet or something to ensure more time.

There are lots and lots of tradeoffs in the sport. Sundevil has some valid considerations, it's just that he assigns more importance to them than to others. I assign a different value to them.

But hiding them serves no one.

Wendy P.


(This post was edited by wmw999 on May 17, 2013, 7:12 AM)


Zlew  (D 21616)

May 17, 2013, 7:19 AM
Post #6 of 63 (5665 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

With the biggest effort being non-flaming.

If you choose to not jump an RSL and are educated as to why/ why not I think that is just fine. I jump a lot of video, did shit tons of research and do not wear an RSL on one rig (but do have a skyhook on the other...but that's another story).

I appreciate that you pointed out that the odds say (drastically) that you are much more likely to be saved by an RSL than hurt by it. I wish I remember the link the the uspa study showing the number of fatalities that would have been non issues with an RSL vs the number of RSL related problems).

For me the biggest RSL issue is the way it causes reserve PC/Bag/etc. to come up under arms/necks/ and past heads when cutting away from a fast spinning mal on your back. Please note, this is only an issue for me due to the mains I jump and the fact I have a camera helmet on. If not for both of these factors I would have an RSL. I recommend an RSL for almost everyone.

Most of the reasons you gave, IMO, are kinda long shots and really rare. I haven't heard of a broken riser since they started re-enforcing them when the mini risers became "cool" 15-20years ago. Plus many modern rigs have a Collins lanyard to make it a non issue if it does. Things like RSL's snagging or keeping your main attached to you are almost unheard of also.

If you don't want to have one, more power to you. this is a big boy sport and you get to make your own decisions. Act fast...don't get sucked into the basement fighting a mal, and you should be fine.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 17, 2013, 1:49 PM
Post #7 of 63 (5488 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>IMO, you are raising very rare complicating scenarios where an RSL could
>contribute to a fatality (like, less than 1 in several million on any given skydive;
>such as an RSL snag causing a premature reserve deployment: exactly how many
>fatalites have been due to that?) but ignoring the upside.

I don't think he is. He said pretty explicitly "I know it will help more often than it will hurt."

There are plenty of people who know that a Pilot 140 would be safer than their Katana 97. (And there are a lot more reasons for that, and a lot more incidents that prove that upsizing is even more important than using an RSL.) But they choose to not use the Pilot 140. That's not because they are "ignoring the upside" - they may just prefer the smaller canopy, even knowing the additional risks.


uberchris  (A License)

May 17, 2013, 1:57 PM
Post #8 of 63 (5481 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

the reason for using my RSL is just numbers:

there are more people that have died from not having an RSL hooked up and pounding in, than there are pounding in directly because of having an RSL and issues that arose from it.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 17, 2013, 2:24 PM
Post #9 of 63 (5447 views)
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Re: [uberchris] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

uberchris wrote:
the reason for using my RSL is just numbers:

there are more people that have died from not having an RSL hooked up and pounding in, than there are pounding in directly because of having an RSL and issues that arose from it.

The above is my reason to have one too.

In fact, after having used an RSL several times and lucky borrowing a rig several months ago that had a Sky Hook, I just bought a new rig with a Sky Hook. Those on the ground said that I probably cut away too low for an RSL, but the Sky Hook put a canopy above my head almost instantly.

I try to go with the odds and not think of myself as special and better than average.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 17, 2013, 3:03 PM
Post #10 of 63 (5411 views)
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Re: [uberchris] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

uberchris wrote:
the reason for using my RSL is just numbers:

there are more people that have died from not having an RSL hooked up and pounding in, than there are pounding in directly because of having an RSL and issues that arose from it.

In the case of people who die without an RSL, it is usually from low EP's - skydiver error, plain and simple. In the case of people who die with an RSL, it's often from an RSL induced mal.

Big difference and not really comparable as stats to make a stat-based decision.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 17, 2013, 5:55 PM
Post #11 of 63 (5333 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
uberchris wrote:
the reason for using my RSL is just numbers:

there are more people that have died from not having an RSL hooked up and pounding in, than there are pounding in directly because of having an RSL and issues that arose from it.

In the case of people who die without an RSL, it is usually from low EP's - skydiver error, plain and simple. In the case of people who die with an RSL, it's often from an RSL induced mal.

Big difference and not really comparable as stats to make a stat-based decision.

They are still dead, regardless of the reason.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 17, 2013, 6:57 PM
Post #12 of 63 (5299 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed.

I'll take an increase in odds in my favor any day.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 17, 2013, 8:19 PM
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Re: [normiss] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Agreed.

I'll take an increase in odds in my favor any day.

Which is why I don't use one...

Between demos, camera jumps & CReW ~

A significant number of my jumps involve numerous snag hazards, I would prefer to be 100% stable when going to my last bullet.

I fully understand I'm 'giving away' some time & altitude as opposed to someone using an RSL...I adjust my opening altitude & hard-deck accordingly.

I broke the right riser set on a canopy at a demo a few years ago, If I would have had an RSL it would have fired the reserve into a wildly spinning main...even after I chopped I was ass over tea kettle for a second or two, with big ole snag grabbers on my head, belly & feet - no thanks!

I had plenty of altitude to get stable, sit up and fired the reserve in exactly the same body position I do the main, I saddled out @ 2200'

An RSL is a useful tool, just not the tool that's best for 'every' job.


Heck...all things considered, I happy to have a reserve that fires off by just pulling the ripcord! I have a few chops that also required a lot of cussing, sharp elbow jabs and a Jesus Cord!! Sly


sundevil777  (D License)

May 17, 2013, 9:00 PM
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are plenty of people who know that a Pilot 140 would be safer than their Katana 97. (And there are a lot more reasons for that, and a lot more incidents that prove that upsizing is even more important than using an RSL.) But they choose to not use the Pilot 140.

Quite right! We all make decisions that result in more or less risk than we might otherwise face. For many, the thrill of a fast canopy outweighs the very definite increase in risk. I am willing to face the risk of my own failure to pull the reserve, but not willing to let an RSL cause problems. Given my other choices, of docile canopies, low WL, not swooping (I don't even use front risers), metal reserve handle...As Billvon implies, my choices I think result in me continuing to accumulate more years of staying above ground level and walking without a limp than the common choice to pursue high performance landings. Instead of expending effort to promote RSLs, we should change the culture that expects a fast increase of WL so as not to be bored.

My memory from threads years ago is that even the old guy with the big beard doesn't like a conventional RSL.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on May 17, 2013, 9:01 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 19, 2013, 9:36 AM
Post #15 of 63 (4949 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>Instead of expending effort to promote RSLs, we should change the culture that
>expects a fast increase of WL so as not to be bored.

Well, we should do both. RSL promotion often gets more "bang for the buck" since RSL's are not seen as uncool the way larger canopies are. (in other words, if you spend 2 hours of your time trying to convince someone to be safer, you are more likely to save a life arguing for an RSL than arguing for a larger canopy.)


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 19, 2013, 10:02 AM
Post #16 of 63 (4938 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My memory from threads years ago is that even the old guy with the big beard doesn't like a conventional RSL.

I have great respect for him, his expertise and his innovation, and I use his products; but that's not the same as someone being a perfectly neutral, disinterested source of informed opinion on that particular subject.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 19, 2013, 11:09 AM
Post #17 of 63 (4906 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy9o8 wrote:
In reply to:
My memory from threads years ago is that even the old guy with the big beard doesn't like a conventional RSL.

I have great respect for him, his expertise and his innovation, and I use his products; but that's not the same as someone being a perfectly neutral, disinterested source of informed opinion on that particular subject.



Yeah...buy a Racer! Tongue


gowlerk  (C 3196)

May 19, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #18 of 63 (4894 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Nicely summed up. You and Wendy P both make more sense than many of the people with hard ass inflexible opinions here. Those who would scream that newbies shouldn't be given both sides of the argument are just afraid that they will make a decision they disagree with.

I don't use an RSL myself, but I have and I would again possibly. My only argument is with people who plan to disconnect one during a malfunction. My opinion is that you need to make that decision before you board the aircraft.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 19, 2013, 3:03 PM
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Re: [gowlerk] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

The main reason mine is disconnected is I do a lot of altitude pulls and CRW. However, now that I no longer have an AAD I am probably going to start hooking it up for freefall jumps.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 19, 2013, 3:59 PM
Post #20 of 63 (4767 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Not using an RSL ranks up there with not wearing seatbelts because of the 1 or 2 scenarios that you can dream up where a seatbelt might not help u in a crash.

Botoom line? RSLs save lives and have. You are far better off with one than without one. period.


sundevil777  (D License)

May 19, 2013, 4:25 PM
Post #21 of 63 (4756 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a lousy analogy.

Aren't we able to understand the issue without comparing it to something else that isn't a valid comparison? Analogies are useful when the issue is hard to understand.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 19, 2013, 4:40 PM
Post #22 of 63 (4748 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
The main reason mine is disconnected is I do a lot of altitude pulls and CRW. However, now that I no longer have an AAD I am probably going to start hooking it up for freefall jumps.

Okay, this logic I don't get. Can you explain why you think that an RSL is a good substitute for an AAD?


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 19, 2013, 5:57 PM
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
crotalus01 wrote:
The main reason mine is disconnected is I do a lot of altitude pulls and CRW. However, now that I no longer have an AAD I am probably going to start hooking it up for freefall jumps.

Okay, this logic I don't get. Can you explain why you think that an RSL is a good substitute for an AAD?

Most likely he no longer has an AAD so he is hooking up his RSL, pretty sure he would accept a free or heavily discounted AAD.


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 19, 2013, 6:01 PM
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Re: [BigMark] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

I think her point is that since the AAD and RSL address entirely different jumper failure modes, the decisions to use them should be independent.

Wendy P.


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 19, 2013, 6:54 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

As seen from someone who has money for an AAD. Tongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 19, 2013, 8:02 PM
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Re: [BigMark] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>As seen from someone who has money for an AAD.

That's sorta not the point. The mistake is not thinking "I can't afford an AAD so I should connect my RSL" - that is indeed a good idea. The mistake is "if I have an AAD I can disconnect my RSL." I can think of at least two people who died at a WFFC who thought the same thing - and whose AAD did not save them from going in.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 19, 2013, 8:28 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Fully agree with you brother.
On the types of jumps you listed.

I'm personally in the habit of disco'ing my RSL on tandem and sport jumps after opening.


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 19, 2013, 11:34 PM
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you kidding me, that's the whole point, do you know how many jumpers want to spend $200 for a used AAD?


tkhayes  (D 18764)

May 20, 2013, 5:26 AM
Post #29 of 63 (1950 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a lousy analogy at all. The statistics VASTLY demonstrate that an RSL, like a seatbelt, is a far better option that not having one.

No analogy at all, just plain statistics. And you and I started jumping at the same time, 1980 or so, and therefore you must actually remember why we put RSLs there in the first place.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 5:37 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

tkhayes wrote:
Not a lousy analogy at all. The statistics VASTLY demonstrate that an RSL, like a seatbelt, is a far better option that not having one.

No analogy at all, just plain statistics. And you and I started jumping at the same time, 1980 or so, and therefore you must actually remember why we put RSLs there in the first place.

It's a good analogy if we were all just 'driving cars' in the sport, however some of us use a motorcycle, bus or a pogo stick. Seat Belts would be impractical on a Harley...Wink

One size doesn't fit all...if it did we'd all have an SOS.


DocPop  (C License)

May 20, 2013, 8:50 AM
Post #31 of 63 (1861 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
crotalus01 wrote:
The main reason mine is disconnected is I do a lot of altitude pulls and CRW. However, now that I no longer have an AAD I am probably going to start hooking it up for freefall jumps.

Okay, this logic I don't get. Can you explain why you think that an RSL is a good substitute for an AAD?

While they are mostly for different scenarios, the are both aids to getting a reserve out and there is some overlap between them.

There are situations when either would be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #32 of 63 (1854 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There are situations when either would might be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.


Depending on how low you pull that cutaway handle, I wouldn't count on the AAD firing if you can't find the handle.

Others have made the point I was trying to make (but I wanted to hear crotalus01's logic, which is why I posed it in the form of a question): evaluating whether to use an AAD or to use an RSL ought to be independent decisions because they don't address the same failure modes. (And to address the person who commented about cost, of course cost can be a factor in evaluating whether to add any piece of non-mandatory gear).


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on May 20, 2013, 8:56 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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May 20, 2013, 8:57 AM
Post #33 of 63 (1851 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>There are situations when either would be beneficial - e.g. have just
>cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.

Your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases like this even if you cut away fairly high (1500 feet or so.) Several fatalities have occurred when people cut away and did not pull their reserves. They had AAD's but no RSL's - and the AAD's did not fire in time.

To repeat - your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases if you cut away and can't pull the reserve.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 20, 2013, 9:12 AM
Post #34 of 63 (1838 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like the old timers like to split hairs on this forum and look for exceptions and completely miss the point by trying to show how their exceptions makes the difference.

Sadly a new or inexperienced skydiver will not understand and get confused by this unnecessary noise.

If you are new, inexperienced and learning, which after 30 years, I still feel like I am, get and use an RSL. You are not doing CREW, shooting video or a tandem. Go with the odds... You are average and not exceptional like most of us.

In fact, get a Sky Hook, it probably saved my life!


(This post was edited by danornan on May 20, 2013, 9:15 AM)


sundevil777  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 10:07 AM
Post #35 of 63 (1805 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
Seems like the old timers like to split hairs on this forum and look for exceptions and completely miss the point by trying to show how their exceptions makes the difference.

Sadly a new or inexperienced skydiver will not understand and get confused by this unnecessary noise.

If you are new, inexperienced and learning, which after 30 years, I still feel like I am, get and use an RSL. You are not doing CREW, shooting video or a tandem. Go with the odds... You are average and not exceptional like most of us.

In fact, get a Sky Hook, it probably saved my life!

Thought from some more "old timers":

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4220324#4220324

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4220324#4220324

RSLs and MARDs have significant downsides. I think it is better to be educated when making that decision than not.


danornan  (D 11308)

May 20, 2013, 10:55 AM
Post #36 of 63 (1783 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

OK - So you would suggest that a new skydiver not have an RSL, (or skyhook) even though, over the years, there have been incidents just about EVERY YEAR of skydivers cutting away and not pulling the reserve in time!

There are always exceptions, but to continue to look at them as the rule just does not pass the common sense test.


SethInMI  (A 47765)

May 20, 2013, 11:05 AM
Post #37 of 63 (1777 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
OK - So you would suggest that a new skydiver not have an RSL, (or skyhook) even though, over the years, there have been incidents just about EVERY YEAR of skydivers cutting away and not pulling the reserve in time!

There are always exceptions, but to continue to look at them as the rule just does not pass the common sense test.

In sundevil's defense, you didn't read the /his first post in the thread.

Paraphrasing, he says, "I know that the statistics numbers are against me, and I don't recommend any newbs following my lead. In fact, I realize that I may have increased my odds of death in skydiving by removing my RSL, but I am doing it anyway."

I have to respect that, he is not being hubristic, "it won't happen to me." argument. He is basically saying "I would rather die from my own failings than some freak gear error".

Seth


sundevil777  (D License)

May 20, 2013, 11:32 AM
Post #38 of 63 (1746 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
OK - So you would suggest that a new skydiver not have an RS

I did not do that.

Sundevil "disconnecting my RSL since my student days with gut gear" 777


DocPop  (C License)

May 20, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #39 of 63 (1741 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer wrote:
Quote:
There are situations when either would might be beneficial - e.g. have just cutaway and can't find/pull the reserve ripcord.

Fair edit!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 20, 2013, 1:15 PM
Post #40 of 63 (1713 views)
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Re: [danornan] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

danornan wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
uberchris wrote:
the reason for using my RSL is just numbers:

there are more people that have died from not having an RSL hooked up and pounding in, than there are pounding in directly because of having an RSL and issues that arose from it.

In the case of people who die without an RSL, it is usually from low EP's - skydiver error, plain and simple. In the case of people who die with an RSL, it's often from an RSL induced mal.

Big difference and not really comparable as stats to make a stat-based decision.

They are still dead, regardless of the reason.

You have quite a grasp of the obvious. Crazy


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 20, 2013, 3:35 PM
Post #41 of 63 (1647 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

NWFlyer - I never said or implied that the RSL was a good substitute for an AAD. I no longer have an AAD because my Cypres timed out on my last repack and had to be removed. Vigil has pretty much killed the used AAD market since they have a 20 year lifespan, and I dont have $1200 laying around to buy a new one (unfortunately). My reason for hooking the RSL back up is silly - I would rather have some safety backup than none (even though they serve very different functions for very different scenarios. I realize an RSL will not help in a potential Cypres fire type scenario and vice versa).
Of course, the RSL will still be detached on CRW jumps...


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 20, 2013, 3:47 PM
Post #42 of 63 (1634 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
Vigil has pretty much killed the used AAD market since they have a 20 year lifespan

How so?


FB1609  (C 1409)

May 20, 2013, 7:48 PM
Post #43 of 63 (1582 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>
To repeat - your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases if you cut away and can't pull the reserve.

You'd think someone could develop one that is smarter really


(This post was edited by FB1609 on May 20, 2013, 7:50 PM)


normiss  (D 28356)

May 20, 2013, 8:53 PM
Post #44 of 63 (1562 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Or maybe those sorts of individuals shouldn't even be skydiving.
If you HAVE to depend on technology to save your ass, you have no business skydiving IMO.


BigMark  (D 17505)

May 20, 2013, 10:21 PM
Post #45 of 63 (1541 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
NWFlyer - I never said or implied that the RSL was a good substitute for an AAD. I no longer have an AAD because my Cypres timed out on my last repack and had to be removed. Vigil has pretty much killed the used AAD market since they have a 20 year lifespan, and I dont have $1200 laying around to buy a new one (unfortunately). My reason for hooking the RSL back up is silly - I would rather have some safety backup than none (even though they serve very different functions for very different scenarios. I realize an RSL will not help in a potential Cypres fire type scenario and vice versa).
Of course, the RSL will still be detached on CRW jumps...

Sly


JackC1

May 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
Post #46 of 63 (1516 views)
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Re: [normiss] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
If you HAVE to depend on technology to save your ass, you have no business skydiving IMO.

LaughLaughLaugh This one always cracks me up.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 21, 2013, 4:36 AM
Post #47 of 63 (1482 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Noone is selling used Vigils because they are within 4 or less years of timing out like they did with Cypres. I have been looking at the classifieds AAD board for months now and have yet to see any used anything for sale other than Argus...


wmw999  (D 6296)

May 21, 2013, 4:44 AM
Post #48 of 63 (1477 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

You can invent them. The problem is that the more complex you make them, the more testing they require, the more failure modes there are (which means that the users have to think about them also), and the more expensive they are.

For safety equipment, personally I prefer it to be as simple as possible, because then I have fewer complex failure modes to think about.

Wendy P.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2013, 4:52 AM
Post #49 of 63 (1465 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
Noone is selling used Vigils because they are within 4 or less years of timing out like they did with Cypres. I have been looking at the classifieds AAD board for months now and have yet to see any used anything for sale other than Argus...

That's a 2-way street. By the same token that a used Vigil will cost more and be less available, it will also hold its value better and last longer when YOU own it.

It's a wash unless you just want a cheap price and an AAD that will time out and need replaced sooner.


Sky_doggy  (C 41295)

May 21, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #50 of 63 (1430 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:


Your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases like this even if you cut away fairly high (1500 feet or so.) Several fatalities have occurred when people cut away and did not pull their reserves. They had AAD's but no RSL's - and the AAD's did not fire in time.

Thanks for posting this. I assume that a AAD will not fire under this scenario because the skydiver has not re accelerated, however rather than me assume could you point me towards a source of information that would help be get more educated on this.

Thanks.


Southern_Man  (C License)

May 21, 2013, 7:46 AM
Post #51 of 63 (1296 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Sky_doggy wrote:
billvon wrote:


Your AAD will NOT FIRE in most cases like this even if you cut away fairly high (1500 feet or so.) Several fatalities have occurred when people cut away and did not pull their reserves. They had AAD's but no RSL's - and the AAD's did not fire in time.

Thanks for posting this. I assume that a AAD will not fire under this scenario because the skydiver has not re accelerated, however rather than me assume could you point me towards a source of information that would help be get more educated on this.

Thanks.

You have it right, the AAD will not fire until you reach the fire speed. Then it may not fire if you are under the shut--off height. You should read the manual for your AAD brand because the firing parameters are different. Know your gear, knowledge is power.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 21, 2013, 1:57 PM
Post #52 of 63 (1242 views)
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Re: [Sky_doggy] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

> I assume that a AAD will not fire under this scenario because the skydiver has not re accelerated

Several reasons.

1) You have to accelerate to activation speed which can take 4-5 seconds.

2) This has to happen above disarming altitude (~130 feet for a cypres)

3) As you rotate to belly-down (which most people do after a cutaway) the sensor sees a drop in pressure, which it translates into a rise in altitude (or in this case a slower descent)

All this means you can cut away at 1500 feet and still not get an activation before impact (or an activation that is too late to save your life.)


browncow  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 12:27 AM
Post #53 of 63 (1167 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a vid i found on youtube of a guy spending 10 secs getting stable after cutting away from a spinning malfunction.

He opens pretty bloody low.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZPuc-c_6g


Deimian

May 22, 2013, 1:36 AM
Post #54 of 63 (1153 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

One, probably stupid, question. Why does a disarming altitude exist? I can't think in any scenario where it is necessary. Without it in the worse case the AAD fires too low to be useful. In the best case there is an offset (I mean ground offset, not offset in the configuration of the AAD) between the real altitude and the altitude the AAD thinks you are, and in that case it fires high enough to be useful, even though it might think you are too low.


airtwardo  (D License)

May 22, 2013, 7:13 AM
Post #55 of 63 (1099 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Deimian wrote:
One, probably stupid, question. Why does a disarming altitude exist? I can't think in any scenario where it is necessary. Without it in the worse case the AAD fires too low to be useful. In the best case there is an offset (I mean ground offset, not offset in the configuration of the AAD) between the real altitude and the altitude the AAD thinks you are, and in that case it fires high enough to be useful, even though it might think you are too low.

How about a radical dive on a tiny canopy?


Deimian

May 22, 2013, 7:51 AM
Post #56 of 63 (1088 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
How about a radical dive on a tiny canopy?

What about that? Radical dives with speeds exceeding 78 mph (96/102 mph in Cypres Speed) might also happen at an altitude higher than 130ft (330ft). Even if this didn't happen, if I'm not swooping why would I want a disarming altitude?

I understand that the lower you are in your dive, the faster you might be falling. Therefore it is more likely that your speed can exceed the firing speed at the lower point, and a disarming altitude can help to prevent such scenario. But for me I see two problems here: (1) if you initiate your dive higher, just to practice, you can still exceed that speed and "force" an undesired firing; (2) if you are not swooping you won't be in a controlled dive that you can pull out, and therefore you'll be in a fucked up situation that most probably will be slightly better with more nylon.

For (1), you should know your gear and if you are doing such practice you should shutdown your AAD before the jump, like many swoopers do with "non-swooping" AADs. But for (2) I still can't see the point of the disarming altitude.


Zlew  (D 21616)

May 22, 2013, 12:27 PM
Post #57 of 63 (1018 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a sellers market for sure.

My team just went to all one AAD manufacture. The "other" AAD's we replaced all sold very quickly. Didn't matter if they were really new, or heavily used. High demand, low supply.


evan85  (C 41367)

May 22, 2013, 2:27 PM
Post #58 of 63 (968 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

Deimian wrote:
airtwardo wrote:
How about a radical dive on a tiny canopy?

What about that? Radical dives with speeds exceeding 78 mph (96/102 mph in Cypres Speed) might also happen at an altitude higher than 130ft (330ft). Even if this didn't happen, if I'm not swooping why would I want a disarming altitude?

I understand that the lower you are in your dive, the faster you might be falling. Therefore it is more likely that your speed can exceed the firing speed at the lower point, and a disarming altitude can help to prevent such scenario. But for me I see two problems here: (1) if you initiate your dive higher, just to practice, you can still exceed that speed and "force" an undesired firing; (2) if you are not swooping you won't be in a controlled dive that you can pull out, and therefore you'll be in a fucked up situation that most probably will be slightly better with more nylon.

For (1), you should know your gear and if you are doing such practice you should shutdown your AAD before the jump, like many swoopers do with "non-swooping" AADs. But for (2) I still can't see the point of the disarming altitude.

Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe the answer is that if your reserve fires while under a functional (though diving/swooping) main with significant altitude, you may have a survivable two-out scenario. If your reserve fires at 80 ft under a functional main, however, you are potentially in a lot more trouble.


Deimian

May 23, 2013, 1:31 AM
Post #59 of 63 (881 views)
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Re: [evan85] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

evan85 wrote:
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe the answer is that if your reserve fires while under a functional (though diving/swooping) main with significant altitude, you may have a survivable two-out scenario. If your reserve fires at 80 ft under a functional main, however, you are potentially in a lot more trouble.

Correct, but if you are not swooping there is no way your AAD will fire if you are under a functional main at that altitude. You simply won't have enough speed to trigger it. If you have enough speed you don't have a functional main. Right?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 23, 2013, 11:42 AM
Post #60 of 63 (814 views)
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Re: [Deimian] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

>One, probably stupid, question. Why does a disarming altitude exist?

1) So front riser landings will not cause the device to fire. Nowadays, of course, people can hit such speeds well above 130 feet - thus "swoop" versions of AAD's.

2) It's just not helpful to open your reserve at 100 feet at 80mph. You are less than a second from impact. It's not going to do anything.

3) It helps prevent "sudden pressurization" events from causing AAD firings. These can come from an aircraft or even a well-sealed car door being slammed.


Deimian

May 23, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #61 of 63 (789 views)
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Re: [billvon] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

billvon wrote:
>One, probably stupid, question. Why does a disarming altitude exist?

1) So front riser landings will not cause the device to fire. Nowadays, of course, people can hit such speeds well above 130 feet - thus "swoop" versions of AAD's.

2) It's just not helpful to open your reserve at 100 feet at 80mph. You are less than a second from impact. It's not going to do anything.

3) It helps prevent "sudden pressurization" events from causing AAD firings. These can come from an aircraft or even a well-sealed car door being slammed.

1) In "non-swoop" scenarios, can you really be falling at 78mph, at 130ft from the ground, and still land properly? I don't think so. If you are under those circumstances you'll hit the ground quite hard, and an AAD firing won't create a bigger problem.

2) Sure, I absolutely agree, it is not helpful to open it so low. But my whole point is that in some circumstances you might be landing slightly below what the AAD thinks. In those cases, a few more feet can be the difference between pounding hard, with as much nylon above your head as possible, and pounding for the last time. Again, for no swoop scenarios.

3) Ok, that makes sense.


-ftp-

May 23, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #62 of 63 (778 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

airtwardo wrote:
normiss wrote:
Agreed.

I'll take an increase in odds in my favor any day.

...I adjust my opening altitude & hard-deck accordingly.

well what if that is blown because of some unforseen circumstance? Do you think you would take an RSL at that point? Besides CRW, Camera etc. To not wear an RSL becuase of the super remote chance that it causes more problems is crazy in my humble internet opinion.

Let's ask this question: Do you think it is more likely that you would have an RSL induced mal/problem or find yourself somehow/someway lower than your "adjusted" pull alt.? I think the answer is fairly obvious...


airtwardo  (D License)

May 23, 2013, 8:06 PM
Post #63 of 63 (739 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Why I don't hook up my RSL [In reply to] Can't Post

-ftp- wrote:
airtwardo wrote:
normiss wrote:
Agreed.

I'll take an increase in odds in my favor any day.

...I adjust my opening altitude & hard-deck accordingly.

well what if that is blown because of some unforseen circumstance? Do you think you would take an RSL at that point? Besides CRW, Camera etc. To not wear an RSL becuase of the super remote chance that it causes more problems is crazy in my humble internet opinion.

Let's ask this question: Do you think it is more likely that you would have an RSL induced mal/problem or find yourself somehow/someway lower than your "adjusted" pull alt.? I think the answer is fairly obvious...



It might be so in your case, in mine...not so much.


I'm jumping out of an airplane with no AAD & no RSL...my altitude awareness is the single most important thing on my mind.

I haven't busted my hard deck in probably 30 years, before that we use to unpack at a grand for shits & giggles...until I got smart that is.

I've been LOW at terminal a bunch, now that I'm older & wiser is definitely not someplace I'll go again.

So...yes it's significantly more likely I'll have a situation where an RSL would cause me problems than it is I'll find myself low & out of time - needing one. YMMV


- Again, MOST of my jumps are with cameras, demo gear or CReW.

Don't need it, don't want it - that's why they're removable...however I understand the additional safety factor it 'can' offer 'most' people, so I would never recommend someone else do as I do.



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