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8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland

 

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Ron

May 21, 2013, 8:22 AM
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Re: [The111] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

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If by "respectable," you mean will cause most people to either die, experience some semi-permanent injury (like a popped out eyeball for example), or at the very least black out... then sure. Considering the way a parachute harness attaches to the body and leaves the head completely unsupported, I suspect that any skydiver experiencing harness load at 30G+ will have his neck broken as a bare minimum. I also wouldn't be surprised if lines/canopy failed in multiple places at a ridiculous hypothetical load like 50G.

Those are insane G loadings that I suspect very few if any living skydivers (and humans period) have ever been exposed to. I'm not going to even begin to make an engineering analysis of the forces at work in a dynamic situation like this, but whatever the equation is, it's very unlikely to commonly result in such a high loading on a human body.

You are right, 32-48G would be devastating if not flat out unsurvivable. Most people, without training/experience, lose it at about 5G.

In 1998 the racing aircraft Voodoo Chile lost a trim tab and the aircraft hit over 10G's rendering the pilot unconscious.
When the same thing happened to The Galloping Ghost in 2011 the NTSB thinks the pilot had 17G's. In both cases both pilots passed out and that was MUCH less than the quoted 32-48G.


ChrisD  (No License)

May 21, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #127 of 161 (1219 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

You are right, 32-48G would be devastating if not flat out unsurvivable. Most people, without training/experience, lose it at about 5G.


I wuoold add most loose something, wheatehr it be their lunch or nausua at about 1 g.


What did Gerado loose it at?

It was on Utube,...
C
Angelic


Ron

May 21, 2013, 9:30 AM
Post #128 of 161 (1197 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

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I wuoold add most loose something, wheatehr it be their lunch or nausua at about 1 g.

You are sitting at 1G right now.... Almost all of us are. Wink


ChrisD  (No License)

May 21, 2013, 9:41 AM
Post #129 of 161 (1185 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the correction, Smile the point being we are not all that immune to increased g forces.

You know where you stand on this issue because you have lived thru this kind of thing, most people have not, and most people overestimate their g tolerance!

He appeared to be in great shape, was this a factor,..???


Certianly we all could do with a bit more physical conditioning, this is most likely the best defence against g forces that can overwhelm most of us???
C


format  (B 15348)

May 21, 2013, 11:50 AM
Post #130 of 161 (1136 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

"A hard slap on the face may briefly impose hundreds of g locally but not produce any real damage; a constant 16 g for a minute, however, may be deadly." - Wikipedia
In reply to:
In 1998 the racing aircraft Voodoo Chile lost a trim tab and the aircraft hit over 10G's rendering the pilot unconscious.
In 2008 I've cutaway from ~10G spin. If it lasted 1-2 seconds, I would black out but that was ~0.3sec effort to bring arm up to a handle.. 8-10 inches, fascinating hard but doable.
In 2006 reserve slammed me so bad, I had to help my head (neck) when laying down or getting up, for a month. Black flesh under legstraps, chest pain. Can't even start to calculate G's on that one.
My point is clear, I hope. Time spent under G-force is essential.. too.


Ron

May 21, 2013, 12:30 PM
Post #131 of 161 (1106 views)
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Re: [format] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

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In 2008 I've cutaway from ~10G spin.

How do you know it was a 10G spin... You have a G meter on you?

Most humans can't stand 5G+ for any real length of time. But yes, for a few milliseconds very high G forces can be tolerated.... In the majority of cases 10+ G's, conscious times are measured in *fractions* of a second.

If you had a 10G malfunction.... Well the average humans arm is about 6.5% of total body weight.... So if you are 180#'s about 11 pounds. 11 X 10G is 110 pounds. Can you curl 110 pounds with one arm? If not... then I would re-guess your G limit.

And how do you know it took you 0.3 seconds to chop? Because if you were able to bring a hand up to the handle, grab it, peal it, and pull it in 0.3 seconds.... You should have been a gun fighter.

Your point about G times is valid.... But you are discussing milliseconds, faster than a human can react. And the idea that you stayed awake during an unexpected 10G malfunction that occurred in less than 0.3 seconds, and managed to perform a cutaway in those conditions in 0.3 seconds is questionable.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 21, 2013, 12:56 PM
Post #132 of 161 (1093 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

f94sbu wrote:
When people argue that they are caused by RSLs deploying the reserve too fast after a spinning main, they have discounted a lot of other factors.

Line twists are a heck of a lot more likely though if one is deploying unstable than stable. That's whether it is due to body rotation, catching on the container, bag catching the wind unevenly, etc.

So the line twists may not be "caused" by the RSL 100% of the time, but the percentage is probably pretty high I figure -- compared to getting stabler first... if the ground isn't in the way in the meantime.

(And of course, this is the % within the cases of line twists, not % of all deployments.)

(P.S. - Two days ago I chopped for the first time in about 5 years . No RSL on my Racer. Not spinning though. I was low, so both hands moved pretty much simultaneously, and would have even if I had been spinning. I might as well have been using an RSL! Tongue)


format  (B 15348)

May 21, 2013, 1:34 PM
Post #133 of 161 (1074 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
-How do you know it was a 10G spin...
-Because if you were able to bring a hand up to the handle, grab it, peal it, and pull it in 0.3 seconds...
It is my assessment based on line trim, risers, spinning, my perception of time and math. Prior to cutaway, hands were 'up' and whole spinning ordeal took ~3.5 seconds. Last 300 milliseconds isn't really that fast.. and there was no handle pealing.
Take it as is or don't. It is my view of my experience, can't prove it and I certainly won't feel bad or wrong.

As for RSL.. I don't believe I would end up half rolled in reserve bridle if I didn't have one.


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 21, 2013, 2:42 PM
Post #134 of 161 (1033 views)
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Re: [format] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
As for RSL.. I don't believe I would end up half rolled in reserve bridle if I didn't have one.

Keep in mind that a spinning main would send your body rotating around your belly button, not rolling around your spine. Even if the reserve pc launches straight down, the only reason for you getting rolled up is that it is catching air and flying past you. If you arch and roll in the opposite direction during deployment, I can see how you might get rolled up. Without the RSL, what would your strategy be to avoid getting rolled up? Making sure that you face the ground before deploying your reserve? What if you are low?
I have been cutting away from a wildly spinning main once and I have to admit that I found it embarrassingly hard to get stable (this was a chop at 4000 feet so I knew I had time). Had this been lower, I would have had to deploy my reserve even though I knew I was facing the wrong direction.
(FWIW, I once made the silly decision to remove the RSL velcro on my rigg, that's why I jump without one in case you wonder. My next rigg will have a Skyhook, that's for sure)


Ron

May 21, 2013, 3:26 PM
Post #135 of 161 (1013 views)
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Re: [f94sbu] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Without the RSL, what would your strategy be to avoid getting rolled up? Making sure that you face the ground before deploying your reserve? What if you are low?

Then you do not take a delay and you are no worse off than if you had an RSL deploy you.

And yes, I have done this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liq4HYJZaho

I was below 1000 feet. I knew where I was and I performed my emergency procedures based on that information. Cutaway, roll belly to earth - reserve pull.

If you do not know how high you are, then you do not take a delay... just like an RSL. If you are unsure, then you do not take a delay.... just like an RSL. If you can't get stable quickly, then you pull anyway.... just like an RSL.


(This post was edited by Ron on May 21, 2013, 3:30 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #136 of 161 (986 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
Quote:
In 2008 I've cutaway from ~10G spin.
Can you curl 110 pounds with one arm? If not... then I would re-guess your G limit.

Not agreeing with the poster on G's, but also not in agreement with the above statement. There's a big difference between curling a weight in the gym and making a movement under duress.

In a cutaway situation, a jumper will use several muscles to raise the arm if necessary, not just the bicep.

And let's forget about "super human strength" which is quite common among people in do-or-die situations.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2013, 4:14 PM
Post #137 of 161 (982 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
Quote:
Without the RSL, what would your strategy be to avoid getting rolled up? Making sure that you face the ground before deploying your reserve? What if you are low?

Then you do not take a delay and you are no worse off than if you had an RSL deploy you.

And yes, I have done this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liq4HYJZaho

I was below 1000 feet. I knew where I was and I performed my emergency procedures based on that information. Cutaway, roll belly to earth - reserve pull.

If you do not know how high you are, then you do not take a delay... just like an RSL. If you are unsure, then you do not take a delay.... just like an RSL. If you can't get stable quickly, then you pull anyway.... just like an RSL.

You rode a spinning mal for 20 seconds and rode a reserve for 7. Any more time "rolling belly to earth" and that wouldn't have been a reserve ride at all. Unsure


Ron

May 21, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #138 of 161 (964 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You rode a spinning mal for 20 seconds and rode a reserve for 7. Any more time "rolling belly to earth" and that wouldn't have been a reserve ride at all.

1. I knew exactly where I was.
2. Read the description to see why I road it for so long.
3. It worked out fine.

As for the claims on strength.... Fear does not change physics. Yes, there are other factors but a 10G developed spin would require you to lift ~ 110 pounds to reach the cutaway.... Adrenalin or not, the chances of doing that in 0.3 seconds when you were surprised at the start is minimal.... Again, physics do not change.


sundevil777  (D License)

May 21, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #139 of 161 (928 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
Quote:
You rode a spinning mal for 20 seconds and rode a reserve for 7. Any more time "rolling belly to earth" and that wouldn't have been a reserve ride at all.

1. I knew exactly where I was.
2. Read the description to see why I road it for so long.
3. It worked out fine.

As for the claims on strength.... Fear does not change physics. Yes, there are other factors but a 10G developed spin would require you to lift ~ 110 pounds to reach the cutaway.... Adrenalin or not, the chances of doing that in 0.3 seconds when you were surprised at the start is minimal.... Again, physics do not change.

You figured that 110 pounds based on the entire arm weight placed at the end of the arm, correct? It would really only be the lower arm weight placed at the c.g. of the lower arm, which could mean a very different number.


sundevil777  (D License)

May 21, 2013, 5:58 PM
Post #140 of 161 (926 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Cutting away below 1k should not include taking the time to roll belly to earth.


Ron

May 21, 2013, 6:10 PM
Post #141 of 161 (921 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Cutting away below 1k should not include taking the time to roll belly to earth.

Your opinion... Maybe valid. But I have video evidence that it can be done. If I had pulled immediately and rode my reserve wrapped around my body till impact.... Would you say I did the right thing?

I am pretty happy with not dying and I can't see how I would do a single thing differently given the same situation.

And as for the arm... Yes, the weight would be less that 110. I don't know how much the jumper weighed, what his percentage of fat is... Or a whole bunch of other factors.

You want better math? Do it yourself.

But mine was close enough to show that a guy with a surprise malfunction didn't cut away a 10G malfunction in 0.3 seconds.


freakyrat  (D 12700)

May 21, 2013, 6:11 PM
Post #142 of 161 (919 views)
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Re: [wmw999] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you Wendy. I cutaway from my wildly spinning Stiletto without an RSL and pulled my reserve and it opened perfectly even after getting slung backwards on the cutaway.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 21, 2013, 7:11 PM
Post #143 of 161 (894 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
Quote:
You rode a spinning mal for 20 seconds and rode a reserve for 7. Any more time "rolling belly to earth" and that wouldn't have been a reserve ride at all.

1. I knew exactly where I was.
2. Read the description to see why I road it for so long.
3. It worked out fine.

As for the claims on strength.... Fear does not change physics. Yes, there are other factors but a 10G developed spin would require you to lift ~ 110 pounds to reach the cutaway.... Adrenalin or not, the chances of doing that in 0.3 seconds when you were surprised at the start is minimal.... Again, physics do not change.


I did read the description. I guess I should have made that clear.

My point wasn't about riding it, it was about taking time to go belly to earth after a chop from a rapidly descending mal at a dangerously low altitude. That was just plain dumb, and dumb luck that your timing (assuming that's really what it was) gave you a reserve ride at all.

You seem to like math, so please take us through your logic. Are you really trying to tell us you can calculate your minimum reserve activation altitude (at an unknown descent rate, mind you) to have a 7 second reserve ride rather than a 9 second one - or 5 - or 1 - or none at all? Good luck with that.

I don't judge jumpers who live through any jump, but I do challenge poor logic and your reply clearly indicates you thought you had the timing down to a split-second science and that's ludicrous on its' face.

Even if you thought you did, you failed to remember that you can't predict the exact elapsed time of any reserve deployment. Add a single second to that deployment and your argument becomes fatally incorrect.

Logic fail - unless you are immune to everything but kryptonite.

As for your assertion that "fear does not change physics", you fail again. The measurement of human strength is not a number on a blackboard or a comparison based on a trip to the gym, and your G-force numbers were made up in your head anyway. A person's strength capacity under routine conditions isn't a fraction of what it is under duress. This has been demonstrated repeatedly in real-world conditions, from soldiers operating in extreme environments without nourishment for extended periods and still mustering the go-juice to perform like top athletes to average people lifting vehicles off of trapped victims, the evidence of people having seemingly impossible strength is long-standing and well documented. If you think you can argue with factual history, go for it.

You are right about one thing, though. It all worked out fine. It left you available to explain your madd skillz to others.

Getting stable after a cutaway is great. Pulling a reserve whether stable of not is better. Statistics bear that out.


(This post was edited by chuckakers on May 21, 2013, 7:33 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

May 21, 2013, 8:57 PM
Post #144 of 161 (856 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron wrote:
Quote:
In 2008 I've cutaway from ~10G spin.

How do you know it was a 10G spin... You have a G meter on you?

Most humans can't stand 5G+ for any real length of time. But yes, for a few milliseconds very high G forces can be tolerated.... In the majority of cases 10+ G's, conscious times are measured in *fractions* of a second.

If you had a 10G malfunction.... Well the average humans arm is about 6.5% of total body weight.... So if you are 180#'s about 11 pounds. 11 X 10G is 110 pounds. Can you curl 110 pounds with one arm? If not... then I would re-guess your G limit.

And how do you know it took you 0.3 seconds to chop? Because if you were able to bring a hand up to the handle, grab it, peal it, and pull it in 0.3 seconds.... You should have been a gun fighter.

Your point about G times is valid.... But you are discussing milliseconds, faster than a human can react. And the idea that you stayed awake during an unexpected 10G malfunction that occurred in less than 0.3 seconds, and managed to perform a cutaway in those conditions in 0.3 seconds is questionable.

A few years back I had an opening so hard it broke a riser...

Of course it gave me quite a jolt, and there was a lot of harness bruising that followed - but I didn't seem to have any physical effects 'during' the opening.

Granted it was just a fraction of a second & I'm glad I didn't have cameras on...but I wonder what the G load actually was during that riser failure.

Someone told me they figured it to be in the 27-30 range. I don't know if that's accurate or how the figured it, but it sure got me thinking!




~On the other G load discussion;

A good friend use to have an Extra 300, he was a top notch airshow pilot and was actually the guy who signed other pilots off for aerobatic maneuvers at airshows.

He used to win a lot of bets with military pilots who'd claim high G tolerance, especially F-16 drivers. Some of those guys would brag 9 and 10 G turns without a problem.

My buddy would take 'em up in the Extra and knock them out usually around 5 or 6 G's. There's a huge difference between a reclined F-16 seat with a pressure suit on...and that up-right lawnchair they bolt in an Extra!

I made it to 5G's once with him but that was because he showed me how to breath right and 'grunt' the midsection - slowing blood loss. 3's in a tight turn for 3-4 seconds and I'd usually get tunnel vision and start graying out.

I don't think most people understand what is really like when in my case I'd go from weighing 220 pounds..to 1100 pounds!

Adrenaline or not...I was just staring at my hands, fascinated that no matter what I did - they weren't moving. Crazy


Ron

May 22, 2013, 12:04 AM
Post #145 of 161 (816 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

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That was just plain dumb, and dumb luck that your timing (assuming that's really what it was) gave you a reserve ride at all.

I say it would have been dumb to pull the reserve on my back while spinning. Like I asked the other guy, if I had pulled on my back and wore the reserve wrapped around me till impact.... Would you have said I had done the right thing?

Quote:
You seem to like math, so please take us through your logic. Are you really trying to tell us you can calculate your minimum reserve activation altitude (at an unknown descent rate, mind you) to have a 7 second reserve ride rather than a 9 second one - or 5 - or 1 - or none at all? Good luck with that.

Again, read about it on youtube.... Or you can do a search here, I wrote a long detailed explanation.

As for your claim that I can't do the math:
1. I don't need math to know that I am at an altitude high enough to deploy a reserve.... I just need to know I am ~750 feet.

2. I clearly can do it, I did and I have the video proof.

Quote:
As for your assertion that "fear does not change physics", you fail again. The measurement of human strength is not a number on a blackboard

Fail. Physics is physics. You can claim you are the hulk if you like, and yes, when in duress adrenalin does give a strength boost... But that is also physics, not the voodoo you seem to support

Quote:
I don't judge jumpers who live through any jump,

Ha, bullshit. That is all you have done. Good thing your opinion does not mean as much to me as my life.


format  (B 15348)

May 22, 2013, 6:22 AM
Post #146 of 161 (747 views)
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Re: [Ron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron, after one hour analysinig your video, it seems to me that you've took a 19 seconds spinning ride while at stady 5.7 g-force. 5.7g most of 13 spins and prior to cutaway - 5.86g. Photo explains the math behind it.
I'm not surprised by those digits. There are factors to it, like vertical dive, off center rotation and others which I know nothing about and I guess those would lower the actual G's but this is the way I've got mine 10 (as I said, I wouldn't last 1-2 secs).
Attachments: Spin speed calculation.jpg (166 KB)


unkulunkulu  (C License)

May 22, 2013, 12:25 PM
Post #147 of 161 (661 views)
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Re: [format] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

why are you assuming the center of rotation to be at the top of the lines? I would guess it is much closer to the jumper as the mass of the jumper+h/c+reserve is much bigger than that of the main and the fact that the aerodynamic force that rotates the system is applied to the main (big lever-arm distance to the center of mass).


(This post was edited by unkulunkulu on May 22, 2013, 12:28 PM)


SethInMI  (A 47765)

May 22, 2013, 4:59 PM
Post #148 of 161 (582 views)
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Re: [format] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

format wrote:
Ron, after one hour analysinig your video, it seems to me that you've took a 19 seconds spinning ride while at stady 5.7 g-force. 5.7g most of 13 spins and prior to cutaway - 5.86g. Photo explains the math behind it.
I'm not surprised by those digits. There are factors to it, like vertical dive, off center rotation and others which I know nothing about and I guess those would lower the actual G's but this is the way I've got mine 10 (as I said, I wouldn't last 1-2 secs).

You took the long way to get the angular rotation, it is just 2*pi/1.48 sec.

The math looks right to me, though I agree with unk, I replayed the video and it appears to me the rotation point is just above the slider. At that high rotation rate, the radius makes a huge difference, if the rotation point is 1m down the lines, this brings the g force closer to 3.6.

Nice example of spinning body after a cutaway. Ron cuts away and then does several rotations around his own center of mass.


format  (B 15348)

May 22, 2013, 5:23 PM
Post #149 of 161 (574 views)
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Re: [unkulunkulu] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
why are you assuming the center of rotation to be at the top of the lines? I would guess it is much closer to the jumper as the mass of the jumper+h/c+reserve is much bigger than that of the main and the fact that the aerodynamic force that rotates the system is applied to the main (big lever-arm distance to the center of mass).
It's a basic theoretical model which seemed most logical - considering parachute wing as rigid and rotating around axis on top the vertical lines (in this case A1). I would place axis at the top of the wing or even more up but that would only increase already high (to grasp) g-forces.
I don't see connection between wing or jumper's mass with it but if there is one, someone will explain.

This is the most chaotic thread discussion I've seen in a while.
Should be anywhere but here.

to SethInMI: you're right, as I said before, it's one of many variables I know nothing about


(This post was edited by format on May 22, 2013, 5:33 PM)


Ron

May 22, 2013, 8:45 PM
Post #150 of 161 (508 views)
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Re: [SethInMI] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The math looks right to me, though I agree with unk, I replayed the video and it appears to me the rotation point is just above the slider. At that high rotation rate, the radius makes a huge difference, if the rotation point is 1m down the lines, this brings the g force closer to 3.6.

I could buy 3.6G's.... But having been the guy in question I don't think it was much higher. I'll admit it was years ago, but I have some exp with G's since I fly acro and regularly do 3-4G's every weekend I can.

I can't buy into 5.6G's.... Mainly because that is a hell of a lot more G than people think, and I have seriously doubts that I would have been awake after almost 6G's for 20 seconds.

Quote:
Nice example of spinning body after a cutaway. Ron cuts away and then does several rotations around his own center of mass.

Yep, and maybe I should have mentioned this before.... I didn't try to get *stable*. That IMO is a bad idea in most case. What I did do is make sure I was *belly to relative wind*. Two vastly different cases.

Ill give my opinion and then leave... The human body has basically three axes it can rotate on.... Pitch (head over feet), roll, and yaw (like a center point turn). IMO, two of those are a really big deal for parachute deployment: Pitch and roll can trap the PC or catch part of the deploying parachute. Yaw on the other had is bad, but will most likely result only in line twists (which I had on my reserve on this jump). I can find very few cases of line twists on a reserve being fatal, although I do know of one case off the top of my head. However, I can find many examples of pitch or roll causing an issue.

Given the choice and the time.... I will try and stop pitch and roll before deploying a reserve. Yaw is not as important, and again IMO, the most difficult to stop.

There is also no doubt that it is better to pull a reserve before impact, and there is no doubt that it is better to pull a reserve than spend time trying to get *stable*...... I just think that given the time that it is better to spend that half second to minimize pitch and roll before deploying a reserve.

You guys have better video tools than me (and it seems more time).... How long would you estimate I took from chop to pull? Me, I'd say less than a second as a guess.


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