Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland

 

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captain1976  (D 7183)

May 12, 2013, 1:14 PM
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Re: [mik] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

mik wrote:
Has the experience and main canopy size been confirmed?

The original post made reference to a "highly experienced" jumper probably on a 200+ canopy but later posts indicate 400-500 jumps (maybe a little more) and a 150 main. I am assuming that the latter posts may be accurate but would be interested to find out for sure. Thanks.

Sorry everyone, I posted him as "highly experienced" in error as I meant to state "reasonably experienced" and there is a limited amount of time you can edit your posts here.

Additionally, the canopy size was reported to me as being what I originally stated by his packer.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 12, 2013, 9:53 PM
Post #77 of 161 (1928 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

 

What would you say the reason is that most skydivers prefer to not use an RSL?

I forgot this forum is ruled by dinosaurs.The main reason? Because they want to look cool and have mad skilz. Too many people have died that would have lived if they had used an RSL.

Am I a dinosaur? Sure, maybe. But I lived thru rounds and the transition to squares and the golden age of experimentation with all kinds of ideas that turned out to be really bad. I have a pretty good idea of what works and how people die.


normiss  (D 28356)

May 12, 2013, 10:37 PM
Post #78 of 161 (1911 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Had a rigger laugh at me - "real jumpers don't use RSL's"

Well THIS jumper no longer uses THAT rigger!

Wink


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 13, 2013, 7:49 AM
Post #79 of 161 (1729 views)
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Re: [normiss] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

normiss wrote:
Had a rigger laugh at me - "real jumpers don't use RSL's"

Well THIS jumper no longer uses THAT rigger!
CrazyCrazy

Good move.Smile I wonder if he thought AAD's were for pussies. Laugh


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

May 13, 2013, 8:10 AM
Post #80 of 161 (1705 views)
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Re: 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Do people really have an issue with line twists on their reserve? Somebody point me to the statistic of fatalities with someone going in on line twists on their reserve.

I don't think its much of a reach to say no pull / low pull numbers are much higher.

If you choose not to jump an RSL thats fine, I don't use one either. But its not because I'm afraid of going in on line twists with the reserve. That sounds like false justification for convenience.

RSL's work and have saved lives. And please, for the young jumpers reading this, never try to disconnect an RSL during a spinning malfunction. Thats ridiculous, and I'm not a dinosaur.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

May 13, 2013, 8:16 AM
Post #81 of 161 (1718 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

jacketsdb23 wrote:
Do people really have an issue with line twists on their reserve? Somebody point me to the statistic of fatalities with someone going in on line twists on their reserve.
Awesome good point. Thank you. Cool

In reply to:
I don't think its much of a reach to say no pull / low pull numbers are much higher.
It's killed a bunch of good people recently. Unsure

In reply to:
RSL's work and have saved lives. And please, for the young jumpers reading this, never try to disconnect an RSL during a spinning malfunction. Thats ridiculous, and I'm not a dinosaur.
I caught some noobs wanting to turn off their AAD's for a hop & pop the day after we had a low-pull/two-out injury. If you need to disconnect your safety equipment because of what you're doing on a jump, you need to reconsider what you're doing. Wink


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 13, 2013, 8:33 AM
Post #82 of 161 (1690 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:

If you are rotating under the mal, you will rotate when you cutaway. You do have rotational momentum, that will rotate you as you chop. You may be spinning or rolling when you chop, and will continue to do so for some time after the chop.....

Funny, I've chopped 5 or 6 highly loaded, fast spinning Velos and never ONCE continued to turn/spin/rotate after the cutaway. How would you explain that?


jcrouch  (D 16979)

May 13, 2013, 8:57 AM
Post #83 of 161 (1656 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been in 8 spinning line twist malfunctions, all with RSLs, a couple wearing a camera. In every case I was under a fully inflated reserve with no line twist about 100 feet below my main canopy. The reserve deployed as I traveled almost horizontally away from my main canopy. Worked great for me!


grimmie  (D 18890)

May 13, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #84 of 161 (1639 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes we witness accidents in this sport that make ZERO sense to us. It's easy to sit at the computer and sip some coffee and monday morning quarterback an incident. Skydivers get on here and start to wildly speculate, bring up physicics charts, call people dinosaurs and tell all sorts of " no shit, there I was stories".

When an incident happens, sometimes it's the simplest of answers as to why.

I have witnessed some pretty crazy stuff over the past 23 years of jumping. As an S&TA I have interviewed a lot of jumpers after a mishap. Here are some common traits in an incident that surviving jumpers discussed...

I thought I was higher.
I thought i had more time.
I thought I could fix it.
I thought i could land it.
I panicked.
I was scared and froze up.
I brainlocked on my cutaway and reserve handle, which was which.
I heard my audible blasting in my ear and was distracted by it.
I didn't do a canopy control check.
I didn't look before I turned.
I thought I tracked far enough.
I looked at my canopy and didn't realize it was a step through and thought I could fix it.
I froze up.
I was told by a jumper once to...(insert bad advice here).
I never had a cutaway before and was scared to chop.
I thought my AAD would fire.

Recently there have been a lot of low cut away incidents.
I'm not sure if we have a training issue or a complacency issue.
Stay current, review your EP's.
Ask an intructor for advice if you're not sure.
Know your gear.

Sometimes it's just the simple things...


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 13, 2013, 9:26 AM
Post #85 of 161 (1627 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
Funny, I've chopped 5 or 6 highly loaded, fast spinning Velos and never ONCE continued to turn/spin/rotate after the cutaway. How would you explain that?

Maybe with all those skydives you were crappy at at performing a physics demonstration, having other things on your mind, and unconsciously adopted a body position that would counter the turn (and any roll) very quickly after chopping! Smile

Some skydivers, including some RSL proponents, thought that rotational momentum does not transfer after chopping. But the evidence in this thread does show clearly that it does. (Largely through video and physics thought experiments, although not through physics equations-on-blackboard stuff.)

That does not mean that the rotation after chopping is always fast, nor that it can't be countered, nor that it doesn't slow naturally from drag. Nor do RSL activated reserves spin up all the time or even most of the time. Nor does it mean that RSL's are evil.

But I did want to counter one factually incorrect concept that some people had learned.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 13, 2013, 9:36 AM
Post #86 of 161 (1615 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

>Do people really have an issue with line twists on their reserve?

Some do. When you load a reserve at close to 2:1 (and yes I know a few people who do this) then line twist is a big deal.

Of course there's a simple solution to that, but it would not result in them having the smallest rig on the DZ.


mstlaurent  (C 3321)

May 13, 2013, 11:09 AM
Post #87 of 161 (1540 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

The truth is, Newton's laws and the law of conservation of rotational energy apply to skydivers too...

This is as true as parachutes don't go up at opening. Cool


You have the same quantity of energy just before and just after the cutaway.

But before the cutaway you rotate around the canopy or around a point further away. This generates centripetal force which disappears at the moment you cut away. From then you rotate around yourself. The feelings from those two different rotations are very different and this may explain in part why it looks like the rotation stops.

The second explanation, which probably has even more effect, is that you can change your rotational speed considerably just by changing your arms and legs position. Just think about a figure skater doing spins.

During and just after the cut away, your arms are close to your body (on the handles) and your feet are probably quite close together because of the centripetal force. And at this moment you rotate (yes!). Then you just have to open your arms and legs to almost stop your rotation, which is what we are trained to do, take the box position.

Hope this makes sense and helps

Cheers


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 13, 2013, 1:57 PM
Post #88 of 161 (1431 views)
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Re: [mstlaurent] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

I had a Sabre 190 that broke 9 lines on opening and put me on my back in the hardest spin I have ever been in (really didnt know a 190 could rotate that fast). I chopped it immediately because I was already in the basement (deployed at 1800', my fault and another story), my RSL beat me to silver and my reserve came out with about 12 linetwists. I had just enough time to kick them out before I landed. As I was walking back to the hanger a jumper with 2000+ jumps remarked that it was the most linetwists he had ever seen on a reserve.
I chose to disconnect my RSL after that experience. I have had 2 chops without it hooked up so I have no doubts in my ability to perform my EPs.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 13, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #89 of 161 (1415 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have had 2 chops without it hooked up so I have no doubts in my ability to perform my EPs.
I can see why you'd worry about the RSL. OTOH, it's not just for whether you can perform your EPs (I know I can -- I'm from the days when you were dead until you did something). But when I dumped below 2 (bigway) and had a spinner on my Diablo, I wasn't unhappy to have my reserve open so quickly after I cut away.

No line twists for me -- as I said, had I had that many, I might have ended up changing my story too. Of course, then when I had a similar malfunction, also below 2 (another bigway), I would have been under my reserve lower. I cut away with both hands, and pull my reserve with both hands. Small hands, more certainty.

Everyone needs to think about these kinds of situations to really know why they're making the decisions they are. There are valid arguments in both directions -- but you have to actually understand them, and not just parrot them.

Wendy P.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

May 13, 2013, 4:32 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
I had a Sabre 190 that broke 9 lines on opening and put me on my back in the hardest spin I have ever been in (really didnt know a 190 could rotate that fast). I chopped it immediately because I was already in the basement (deployed at 1800', my fault and another story), my RSL beat me to silver and my reserve came out with about 12 linetwists. I had just enough time to kick them out before I landed. As I was walking back to the hanger a jumper with 2000+ jumps remarked that it was the most linetwists he had ever seen on a reserve.
I chose to disconnect my RSL after that experience. I have had 2 chops without it hooked up so I have no doubts in my ability to perform my EPs.

You just confirmed my point. Lots of line twists, you landed fine. Sure as hell beats a nothing out, or line stretch reserve canopy. There is also a video somewhere out there in Deland (maybe?) of a guy with massive line twists on his reserve and he kicked out of them just in time to land.

I'll still argue the statistics don't point to a problem with fatalities and line twists on reserves. However, the same can't be said for low or no pulls.

Just food for thought.


Pablo.Moreno  (C 13216)

May 13, 2013, 5:41 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

You have higher chances of surviving landing with a line twist than a reserve half way open.

Then again if I would be flying a canopy loaded at 2.5 to 1, that would be another story and another opening altitude.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

May 13, 2013, 6:21 PM
Post #92 of 161 (1257 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

chuckakers wrote:
pchapman wrote:

If you are rotating under the mal, you will rotate when you cutaway. You do have rotational momentum, that will rotate you as you chop. You may be spinning or rolling when you chop, and will continue to do so for some time after the chop.....

Funny, I've chopped 5 or 6 highly loaded, fast spinning Velos and never ONCE continued to turn/spin/rotate after the cutaway. How would you explain that?

Well, I would guess (and it's just a guess) that you were spinning relatively slowly after the cutaway. Slowly enough that before you could make a noticeable rotation, your reserve PC was out and the drag from that (and from the subsequent reserve deployment) stopped the rotation completely.

IOW, the RSL puts the reserve out fast enough that you won't rotate enough to matter, even though physics dictates you do retain that rotational momentum.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

May 13, 2013, 6:37 PM
Post #93 of 161 (1247 views)
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Re: [wolfriverjoe] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

wolfriverjoe wrote:
chuckakers wrote:
pchapman wrote:

If you are rotating under the mal, you will rotate when you cutaway. You do have rotational momentum, that will rotate you as you chop. You may be spinning or rolling when you chop, and will continue to do so for some time after the chop.....

Funny, I've chopped 5 or 6 highly loaded, fast spinning Velos and never ONCE continued to turn/spin/rotate after the cutaway. How would you explain that?

Well, I would guess (and it's just a guess) that you were spinning relatively slowly after the cutaway. Slowly enough that before you could make a noticeable rotation, your reserve PC was out and the drag from that (and from the subsequent reserve deployment) stopped the rotation completely.

IOW, the RSL puts the reserve out fast enough that you won't rotate enough to matter, even though physics dictates you do retain that rotational momentum.

I don't use an RSL, and in most of my chops I was wearing a camera. It also didn't notice any rotation.

And your comment on the reserve p/c stopping any rotation makes no sense at all. Maybe you can explain that one.


gowlerk  (C 3196)

May 13, 2013, 8:51 PM
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Re: [crotalus01] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(deployed at 1800', my fault and another story)

And then you had a high speed spinner that you cut away from? And somehow you think you would have been better off taking the time to get "stable" before deploying your reserve? How much time would you have had to do that? You should be glad that 12 line twists is all that happened to you. Your RSL saved your ass there.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

May 14, 2013, 1:02 AM
Post #95 of 161 (1086 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

gowlerk wrote:
Quote:
(deployed at 1800', my fault and another story)

And then you had a high speed spinner that you cut away from? And somehow you think you would have been better off taking the time to get "stable" before deploying your reserve? How much time would you have had to do that? You should be glad that 12 line twists is all that happened to you. Your RSL saved your ass there.

+1 !


f94sbu  (D 16017)

May 14, 2013, 1:34 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

crotalus01 wrote:
I had a Sabre 190 that broke 9 lines on opening and put me on my back in the hardest spin I have ever been in (really didnt know a 190 could rotate that fast). I chopped it immediately because I was already in the basement (deployed at 1800', my fault and another story), my RSL beat me to silver and my reserve came out with about 12 linetwists. I had just enough time to kick them out before I landed. As I was walking back to the hanger a jumper with 2000+ jumps remarked that it was the most linetwists he had ever seen on a reserve.
I chose to disconnect my RSL after that experience. I have had 2 chops without it hooked up so I have no doubts in my ability to perform my EPs.

Lets do the math to see if your logic holds together:
Taking the line length of a Sabre 190 into account + riser length etc. it is a fair assumption that your body will be at least 2-3 meters away from the center of the rotation. After watching countless cutaways, I think it is safe to assume that your reserve was fully deployed 3 seconds after the cutaway. IF the rotation from the malfunction caused the linetwists on the reserve, you must have been rotating with 4 revolutions per second just before the cutaway. This means that you were subjected to 128 - 192 G just prior to the cutaway. No one is able to withstand such G forces without passing out (and dieing ) almost instantly.
I think it is fairly safe to say that the line twists on your reserve was not caused by the RSL firing your reserve too early. Without the RSL, how long would you have waited to deploy your reserve and what would you have done in the meantime? I hope you realize that you loose altitude a lot faster when you are in freefall trying to find a stable belly to earth position than you do under a reserve with line twists.
Your spinning main might have given you 1 or 2 twists, the others were from factors that we can only speculate about. Question is, would you have been able to eliminate all those factors while being disoriented after a spinning main, quickly loosing altitude after the cutaway. Chances are that you would have never lived to tell the story about your cutaway if you had been jumping without an RSL and waited with silver much longer than your RSL waited.

Bottom line, if you wish to jump without and RSL for whatever reason, that's fine by me, but please please do not use your story to convince anyone else that they should disconnect their RSL.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

May 14, 2013, 4:41 AM
Post #97 of 161 (1010 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

The RSL may or may not have factored into the linetwists - I dont know. I had one hand on each handle and was less than 1 second between the cutaway and reserve fire. I didnt look at my reserve cable to see if it was kinked after the fact. As stated I was well aware I was low and I just wanted a landable canopy over my head ASAP. However, the fact that the RSL -could- have caused the linetwists was definitely a factor in my decision to disconnect it. Another reason is that I do a lot of altitude hop and pops and CRW. Now that I am starting to do more RW I am considering reconnecting it (and since I retired the Sabre I think it very unlikely I will end up with that many broken lines again).
Edit - I was not advocating anyone to disconnect their RSL.


(This post was edited by crotalus01 on May 14, 2013, 4:46 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 14, 2013, 4:57 AM
Post #98 of 161 (995 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

The thought process you put into disconnecting your RSL when you did was completely valid in my eyes. There are perfectly valid reasons not to have one, and CRW is an outstanding contender.

If I did enough CRW that I had to include thinking about the RSL in my EPs on a significant number of jumps, I'd take it off, too.

One thing we need to include in the thinking process is whether it's a "regular" RSL or a Skyhook.

Wendy P.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 14, 2013, 5:49 AM
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Re: [f94sbu] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

f94sbu wrote:
Lets do the math to see if your logic holds together:
[..] This means that you were subjected to 128 - 192 G just prior to the cutaway.

Come on... even many students find out that they can have a canopy "open with" just one full line twist... but they keep rotating underneath until they have a few more twists.

(Whether or not the jumper you were replying to actually had exactly 12 twists...)

RSL's might get to be more accepted if some of their proponents didn't scare others away by going so weird with the math and physics. CrazySmile


GoneCodFishing

May 14, 2013, 7:03 AM
Post #100 of 161 (898 views)
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8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

As it's said, an image is worth 1000 words...

Down the page on the UPT/Skyhook website there's a Skyhook cutaway sequence from a spinning canopy along with 'time stamps'. Make of that as you will.

[inline skyhook_all.jpg]

All said, if the choice is a reserve with line twists at 200ft or a snivelling bag of shit at 10ft i know which one i'd choose Unsure


(This post was edited by GoneCodFishing on May 14, 2013, 7:12 AM)
Attachments: skyhook_all.jpg (134 KB)


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