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8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland

 

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Tetrahedron

May 9, 2013, 7:54 PM
Post #27 of 161 (2326 views)
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ryoder  (D 6663)

May 9, 2013, 8:12 PM
Post #28 of 161 (2304 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Tetrahedron wrote:
Cutting away from a spinning malfunction with an RSL gives you a good chance of winding up with numerous line twists on your reserve.
It's actually a good decision to disconnect the RSL before cutting away, in that situation, but not if it takes you more than 5 seconds to disconnect it.

The moment you cutaway, you fly away from the canopy feet-first in a straight line. The relative wind is blowing from your feet toward your head.

You can simulate this by tying a weight to the end of a cord, then spinning it overhead and letting it go. The spin ends the moment it is released.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 9, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #29 of 161 (2301 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Cutting away from a spinning malfunction with an RSL gives you a good chance of winding up with numerous line twists on your reserve.
It's actually a good decision to disconnect the RSL before cutting away, in that situation, but not if it takes you more than 5 seconds to disconnect it.

That's some of the worst advice I've heard. If you jump an RSL, leave it hooked up unless you plan to land in water or on top of a building.

Taking 5 seconds while spinning (and diving) toward the ground to disconnect an RSL is a huge waste of time you probably don't have. What are you going to do next? Spend time trying to get stable before pulling your reserve handle?

That's bullshit. You're spinning because the canopy is turning. Your body is not spinning relative to your own centerline, the canopy is spinning relative to it's own cneterline. If you cutaway, you will get flung off to the side in a straight line. The RSL will actually help you by getting the reserve extraction started immediately, before you have a chance to fuck the whole thing up and flip yourself ass over teakettle.

You're giving out very poor advice, and if you plan to follow that same advive, you're setting yourself up the same thing that happened here. If you're not preparred to have an RSL assisted reserve deployment on any cutaway you might have, then do not jump an RSL. There is no time or place for reconfiguring your rig in the middle of a malfunction.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 9, 2013, 8:30 PM
Post #30 of 161 (2292 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cutting away from a spinning malfunction with an RSL gives you a good chance of....

You may want to re-think that and cease offering incorrect advice to others. Somebody told you wrong or you just don't know what you don't know.


Tetrahedron

May 9, 2013, 11:10 PM
Post #31 of 161 (2207 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

popsjumper wrote:
In reply to:
Cutting away from a spinning malfunction with an RSL gives you a good chance of....

You may want to re-think that and cease offering incorrect advice to others. Somebody told you wrong or you just don't know what you don't know.

What would you say the reason is that most skydivers prefer to not use an RSL?

I forgot this forum is ruled by dinosaurs.

I'll leave you all to it. Bye.


phreeloader  (Student)

May 9, 2013, 11:14 PM
Post #32 of 161 (2205 views)
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Re: May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

 

...So is this just bad reporting? or is there more to this?

http://www.news-journalonline.com/...509743?p=1&tc=pg


Quote:
Spence told police there were no issues when they broke away at 4,000 feet, and he saw Rosell's open chute, which he believed was working properly, at 3,000 feet.

Richard Ford, Rosell's other co-sky diver, also told police he saw Rosell deploy his parachute but he wasn't able to clearly see the landing Rosell made because he was still too high up, according to the report. He said he thought he saw Rosell's original chute cut away and land in some woods. However, a New Smyrna Beach man, Trevor Cedar, later showed up at the scene of the tragic fall and reported the cut-away chute was his and had nothing to do with Rosell's fatal fall, according to the report.

Skydive DeLand's general manager, Mike Johnston, said it's his understanding that Rosell's chute did open but there was a controllability problem with it.

He elected to release it, which we call cutting it away, and use his emergency procedures, Johnston said.


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 10, 2013, 4:22 AM
Post #33 of 161 (2083 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What would you say the reason is that most skydivers prefer to not use an RSL?

I would guess ignorance. When you say 'most' skydivers, do you mean most the skydivers who don't use an RSL, or are you suggesting that 'most' jumpers overall do not use an RSL. By my casual observation, more jumpers than not are using an RSL.

In any case, your suggestion that a spinning mal makes you as an individual spin remains incorrect. Relative to your canopy, you are not spinning, you are hanging in a fairly static position under your wing. The canopy itself is turning, but that has nothing to do with you personally. Your body, in relation to itself, has no rotational momentum to speak of.

Sit down and do some hard thinking on the physics of the situation, and you'll see that you're getting yourself all mixed up as to which forces are being applied to which object.

Quote:
I forgot this forum is ruled by dinosaurs.

Food for thought, your ideas about RSLs and malfunctions came from one of two places - either another 'dinosaur' (aka, high-time jumper) told you this, and in that case you hitched your wagon to a dinosaur (which in this case was a mistake). The other possibility is that you came up with this on your own, or you heard from another non-dinosaur, and now you're hearing otherwise some actual dinosaurs.

The point is that the reason I'm a 'dinosaur' is that I've managed to survive long enough in this sport that my USPA card can vote or go to war. If you think I've spent that time flying a 220 and doing 3-way RW, think again.

With that in mind, and the idea that there are literally 1000's of other jumpers reading these boards (a good number of which seem to love to prove me wrong), I would suggest that the advice I'm giving is legit. What you head from one guy or made up yourself is one thing, what I suggest to you here that's being read and not immediately shot-down for being even the slightest bit 'off' is another, and it's probably what you want to go with.


(This post was edited by davelepka on May 10, 2013, 4:22 AM)


potatoman  (Student)

May 10, 2013, 5:02 AM
Post #34 of 161 (2046 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Back to the topic.

Did the jumper attempt to clear line in some way, or tried to fly the bowtie? Would probably be visible from the main if the slider toggles was done/undone.

As the witnisses said, he did the cutaway close to the ground, so one would easily be able to see if his hands were UP or on the EP handles.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 10, 2013, 5:42 AM
Post #35 of 161 (2007 views)
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Re: [davelepka] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to put a different spin on things so to speak.

If you are rotating under the mal, you will rotate when you cutaway. You do have rotational momentum, that will rotate you as you chop. You may be spinning or rolling when you chop, and will continue to do so for some time after the chop -- while the RSL is activating the reserve.

Consider a simplified model spiral dive, just an object at the end of a string spun in a horizontal circle, and ignore the descent rate. When the object released from the string it does go straight out on a tangent to the circle.

But if the object, the jumper, were spinning around once every two seconds, the jumper would be rotating around his own belly 180 degrees a second, even when he is also moving around in a circle at the same time.

When he gets flung off at the moment of cutaway, he'll still be rotating 180 degrees a second, while flying off straight at a tangent to the circle.

So the RSL is starting to extract the reserve while the jumper is spinning. Although at least in this case, the jumper remains belly to earth.


You also get mals where the canopy is more overhead and the jumper is spinning around underneath, more of a 'helicopter' type thing.

The resolution is crappy, but an example is this video from when I deliberately cut away one riser only in an intentional cutaway: http://blip.tv/...ide-at-a-time-242566 While it is an artificial mal, I have seen high performance canopy mals that are like that.

The jumper (me) has lots of rotational momentum, 360 degrees a second in the video, and obviously continues to spin like that after the cutaway, with speed slowing over a few seconds due to drag and hopefully no pro-spin inputs any more.

I would sure not like to have an RSL pop the reserve when spinning like that on my back!

If I were caught really low, I'd still be grateful for an RSL -- but I'm not going to pretend the RSL would magically provide a clean reserve extraction relative to my body.


Let's now expand the first example, going back to the 'spinning in a circle' case: There the jumper is rotating only around his belly to back axis. Now make it more complex and realistic by turning the motion into a descending spiral like many mals. For the jumper to follow the canopy motions, you can see that the jumper is also rotating on his head to toe axis -- he is rolling.

At the extremes, he's not rolling at all if just spun in a circle with no descent like the first example, and rolling as fast as the canopy is turning in the second 'helicopter' example with a spinning canopy right above. So for a spiral dive, that is somewhere between these two simplified types of motion, the rolling speed of the jumper will be somewhat in between.

Still the jumper is rolling.

So when he cuts away, in addition to the spinning motion around the belly to back axis, superimposed on that is also some rolling motion depending on the nature of the malfunction. He's rolling and spinning after he jettisons his main!


Additionally, there are other complications to the direction the reserve pilot chute will go. Not just in my 'helicopter' example, but in other spiralling mals, the jumper is sometimes on his back, so his back is to the relative wind. So whatever you think about "rotating after chopping", you still expect him to have his reserve bridle going up around his shoulder when the RSL activates his reserve.

RSL's do work but they do not always provide the nice direction of reserve extraction that many like to think.


IronEddie42  (D 32850)

May 10, 2013, 5:45 AM
Post #36 of 161 (1998 views)
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Re: [phreeloader] May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

phreeloader wrote:

...So is this just bad reporting? or is there more to this?

http://www.news-journalonline.com/...509743?p=1&tc=pg


Quote:
Spence told police there were no issues when they broke away at 4,000 feet, and he saw Rosell's open chute, which he believed was working properly, at 3,000 feet.

Richard Ford, Rosell's other co-sky diver, also told police he saw Rosell deploy his parachute but he wasn't able to clearly see the landing Rosell made because he was still too high up, according to the report. He said he thought he saw Rosell's original chute cut away and land in some woods. However, a New Smyrna Beach man, Trevor Cedar, later showed up at the scene of the tragic fall and reported the cut-away chute was his and had nothing to do with Rosell's fatal fall, according to the report.

Skydive DeLand's general manager, Mike Johnston, said it's his understanding that Rosell's chute did open but there was a controllability problem with it.

He elected to release it, which we call cutting it away, and use his emergency procedures, Johnston said.

There was another incident on the same load - Trevor and a young jumper had a canopy collision just after opening - Trevor had to cut away, the other jumper did not.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

May 10, 2013, 5:53 AM
Post #37 of 161 (1988 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had a couple of spinning mals on a Diablo -- they spin pretty good, and in both cased my RSL activated my reserve with neither incident nor line twists.

If you're thrown away from your spinning main, the rotation that was happening around your main is going to stop, because the fulcrum (the main) is gone. If you were also twisting (i.e. either the spinning line twists were twisting up worse or untwisting) that component can stay with you I believe.

Wendy P.


ufk22  (D 16168)

May 10, 2013, 6:10 AM
Post #38 of 161 (1967 views)
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Re: [Tetrahedron] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Giving you your point (not that I agree) would you rather have an inflated reserve with line twists at 300' or a partially inflated reserve at impact??????????


ryoder  (D 6663)

May 10, 2013, 6:32 AM
Post #39 of 161 (1934 views)
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Re: [wmw999] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

wmw999 wrote:
I've had a couple of spinning mals on a Diablo -- they spin pretty good, and in both cased my RSL activated my reserve with neither incident nor line twists.

If you're thrown away from your spinning main, the rotation that was happening around your main is going to stop, because the fulcrum (the main) is gone. If you were also twisting (i.e. either the spinning line twists were twisting up worse or untwisting) that component can stay with you I believe.

Wendy P.

Wendy is absolutely correct. I have also chopped a spinning Diablo. I was on my back, facing the sky, watching the horizon rushing by my feet in a blur. I put one hand on the cutaway, one hand on the reserve, chopped, pulled, and saw the horizon immediately stabilize as I got a clean, on-heading reserve opening.

The flying world has the myth of the "downwind turn", and skydivers have the myth of the spin that remains after the cutaway.Crazy


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 10, 2013, 6:48 AM
Post #40 of 161 (1918 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I'll admit that there are some very specific circumstance where a jumper could have some 'personal' rotational momentum built up that could remain after the chop. That said, I have never heard of a jumper who got wrapped up in a reserve bridle or lineset, the worst I've heard of line twists. To that end, I've also heard of line twists on an otherwise 'clean' cutaway and reserve deployment.

Those very specific circumstance would certainly be some of the most violent, disorienting and high-speed malfunctions, making it the worst possible time to be concerned with trying to disconnect an RSL, and then playing the losing game of trying to get stable before pulling your own reserve.

I maintain that the best course of action in such circumstances would be an immediate cutaway and reserve deployment. Less altitude loss, less disorientation and more time to kick out of any reserve line twists if they should occur.

Let's remember that a malfunction only occurs after you have decided it was time to end the skydive. Your main might have different ideas, but in any case you're going much faster than you wanted to be at the given altitude. Staying on track, and slowing yourself way down should be your #1 priority, and analyzing the nature of your mal and reconfiguring your rig to match is not conducive to stopping anything.

If you feel the RSL poses a real risk, just don't jump with one. If you choose to jump with one, be ready to operate as if it wasn't there, to include pulling your own silver handle and ignoring it unless you plan to land in water or on top of a building.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 10, 2013, 7:01 AM
Post #41 of 161 (1909 views)
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Re: [ryoder] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

ryoder wrote:
skydivers have the myth of the spin that remains after the cutaway.Crazy

I thought it was the myth that RSL's provide a clean opening because people don't spin after a cutaway.Smile

The rotation rate may not be a whole lot in some cases, and jumpers will sometimes stabilize themselves quickly after a cutaway, so that the effect on the reserve opening is minimal, and no twists result.

But the physics suggests one does keep the rotational momentum one has at the time of the chop.

But that's an argument that can be continued at another time and place!


dqpacker  (D 32043)

May 10, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #42 of 161 (1872 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:
ryoder wrote:
skydivers have the myth of the spin that remains after the cutaway.Crazy

I thought it was the myth that RSL's provide a clean opening because people don't spin after a cutaway.Smile

The rotation rate may not be a whole lot in some cases, and jumpers will sometimes stabilize themselves quickly after a cutaway, so that the effect on the reserve opening is minimal, and no twists result.

But the physics suggests one does keep the rotational momentum one has at the time of the chop.

But that's an argument that can be continued at another time and place!

you lost your own argument.


ryoder  (D 6663)

May 10, 2013, 7:34 AM
Post #43 of 161 (1863 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

pchapman wrote:
I thought it was the myth that RSL's provide a clean opening because people don't spin after a cutaway.Smile

The rotation rate may not be a whole lot in some cases, and jumpers will sometimes stabilize themselves quickly after a cutaway, so that the effect on the reserve opening is minimal, and no twists result.

But the physics suggests one does keep the rotational momentum one has at the time of the chop.

But that's an argument that can be continued at another time and place!

I honestly can't tell what the jumper does after the cutaway; Even full-screen it is too small and brief. Is it possible to go back to the original file, and generate a larger video?


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 10, 2013, 7:46 AM
Post #44 of 161 (1840 views)
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Re: [ryoder] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

ryoder wrote:
I honestly can't tell what the jumper does after the cutaway; Even full-screen it is too small and brief.

Yeah, my vid is poor. Sorry, the guy who burned the DVD screwed up the resolution and the original tape is gone.

I sure didn't stop spinning as soon as I chopped, yet at the same time I was able to flip over, slow the turn, and deploy my main with only some residual rotation after a couple seconds -- but the timing was under my control, not an RSL's.

Somewhere out on youtube there must be some outside video of spinning chops (supporting either side of the argument)...


irishrigger  (D 297)

May 10, 2013, 8:16 AM
Post #45 of 161 (1799 views)
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Re: [ryoder] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

ryoder wrote:
Tetrahedron wrote:
Cutting away from a spinning malfunction with an RSL gives you a good chance of winding up with numerous line twists on your reserve.
It's actually a good decision to disconnect the RSL before cutting away, in that situation, but not if it takes you more than 5 seconds to disconnect it.


I do not believe that an RSL will add line twist on your reserves. i have had over 45 cutaways and the most i gotten was maybe half a twist. a lot has to do how to fly your body after a cutaway.

and i would much prefere to land with line twists on a reserve than land with a canopy that is snivling to open!

and my own personal opinion is i would much rather try to fight a line twist on reserve than fighting to get stable after a low cutaway. i do not know if he wasted 5 sec as mentioned. but if the RSL was connected he might have enough height to deal and clear a line twist on his reserve most likely.
so which is the lesser of 2 evils in this scenario?
my 2 Cents

Rodger


(This post was edited by irishrigger on May 10, 2013, 8:17 AM)


DougH  (D License)

May 10, 2013, 8:20 AM
Post #46 of 161 (1789 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Under my two spinning malfunctions with smaller HP canopies I was not spinning independently of the canopy along my vertical axis.

Maybe my experience isn't the norm, but based on discussions with other people with high speed diving line twists, and my own two, you end up with a good amount of vertical speed from canopy diving and your body tends to stabilize either on your back or on your belly.

The canopy may continue to spin, but it does it mostly independent of the jumper.


sundevil777  (D License)

May 10, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #47 of 161 (1760 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

dqpacker wrote:
sundevil777 wrote:
If he had difficulty cutting away, perhaps the mini 3 rings contributed to that. I don't like them at all, especially for heavier jumpers.

i've chopped 5 times with mini 3rings on highly loaded canopies spinning, and never had a problem, and i'm a bigger dude.
what might have been a real contributor to a hard cutaway is if he had hard housings in his risers.
but if his rsl was disconnected, my guess is he took too much time disconnecting it, instead of just cutting away.

Mini rings are more sensitive improper manufacture, and are more sensitive to lack of lubrication of the cable. Of course everyone should confirm that their risers are properly made and that their system is well lubed. Of course not everyone is going to do that. I like having extra margin by design. I don't know if this fatality involved difficulty cutting away related to the mini rings, but this forum is in part for speculation to inform and educate about such issues. I think it is reasonable to bring up the subject.


(This post was edited by sundevil777 on May 10, 2013, 8:45 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 10, 2013, 8:44 AM
Post #48 of 161 (1757 views)
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Re: [DougH] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, consider that recently video from the deepseed guy with the popped toggle on a high performance canopy. His spiral descent was smooth, pretty much just a rotation on the body yaw axis, spinning at about 1 revolution per 2 seconds.

It is hard to tell exactly what is happening from inside video, but it looks like he continues to rotate after chopping, another 180 degrees, starting to slow down, perhaps partially naturally from drag and partially by his instinctive body position to counter a turn. Who knows exactly when the Cypres activated reserve streams out.

So yes he continues to turn after chopping, as physics suggests.

And yes that doesn't automatically mean a twisted up reserve, because the rotation rates and type of rotation aren't necessarily high enough, and do damp out from drag or by good body position.

Perhaps that satisfies proponents of different areas of emphasis?


sundevil777  (D License)

May 10, 2013, 8:52 AM
Post #49 of 161 (1738 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So yes he continues to turn after chopping, as physics suggests.

Not just suggested, it's the law!

The center of gravity of the person will go out/away on a tangent, but as you "suggest" there is some rotational momentum and that doesn't stop when cutting away.


EduardoVincente  (B 5615)

May 10, 2013, 8:52 AM
Post #50 of 161 (1737 views)
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Re: [pchapman] 8 May 2013 Fatality Skydive Deland [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a video of a reserve deployment on my back from a spinning malfunction...

http://www.dropzone.com/videos/Emergencies/nakEd_s_Crazy_Cut-Away_1699.html


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