Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Landing direction, revisited.

 

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Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 24, 2013, 4:19 PM
Post #26 of 60 (1110 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>How do you organize all those people to land safely with us if you change the rules in
>the middle of their canopy flight? You can't.

Agreed. The ONLY time this is ever OK is due to a safety issue - a thunderstorm is coming and the winds just reversed and went to 15mph. Folding it up is another good way to indicate "do not follow the arrow!"

This is rare, though, and as long as someone is available to move the arrow when it needs to be moved (rarely in most places) it works well.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:00 PM
Post #27 of 60 (1092 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

This was the worst of both worlds. Everyone agreed the winds were quite squirrely, and did switch directions a lot over the weekend. Just the time for someone out directing landings, as conditions sometimes warranted a change from when the plane took off.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:18 PM
Post #28 of 60 (1083 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At Skydive City there is a bright yellow arrow in the boarding area. It's about 4X10 feet, lays on the ground and is real heavy. Early in the day a consensus is gathered as to the landing direction by asking real loud "WHICH WAY ARE WE LANDING??!!" The arrow is then positioned to point into the wind as a strong suggestion that this is the way to land. It is adjusted throughout the day and is easily seen during boarding as well as in the air.

It helps a LOT!

jon

We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:24 PM
Post #29 of 60 (1081 views)
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Re: [theplummeter] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I travel a lot for work, and try to jump in as many different places as possible.

Many smaller Cessna dropzones don't care where you land or how you set up, as long as you don't hit anyone else.

>>> I've traveled a lot myself, and seen bad behavior in a lot of places, including reputable DZ's.
I totally agree that different places have different hazards, and requirements vary. One size does not fit all.

I love Eloy, planning that if the first jumper down takes it downwind then I have to keeps me on my toes and reinforces good canopy choices knowing that crosswind and downwind are likely on most jumps.

>>> I've jumped there, and commend their landing practices.

Mile Hi is excellent in that you always set up to land into the wind, which is helpful at a dropzone that high and with that much wind.

Either way, as long as the jumpers listen to and follow the rules it works. The real problem is when one person doesn't want to deal with the rules, and screws it up for everyone.

I've seen the consequences of two people landing in different directions at the same time. The more people do it, the greater the chance of an accident.
I'd like the most reliable methods adopted to prevent this, and in some cases, the big arrow, or indicator, is a great way to go.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:32 PM
Post #30 of 60 (1075 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>How do you organize all those people to land safely with us if you change the rules in
>the middle of their canopy flight? You can't.

The ONLY time this is ever OK is due to a safety issue - a thunderstorm is coming and the winds just reversed and went to 15mph.

+1
However,

In reply to:
Folding it up is another good way to indicate "do not follow the arrow!".

If you are still talking about canopies being in the air...
-1
It seems to me that pulling the plug and leaving everyone to their own devices is the worst thing to do.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:33 PM
Post #31 of 60 (1074 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

WooHoo! Pre-determined. I like that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:36 PM
Post #32 of 60 (1071 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd like the most reliable methods adopted to prevent this, and in some cases, the big arrow, or indicator, is a great way to go.

- if it points the same direction for the entire load.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:38 PM
Post #33 of 60 (1066 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

WooHoo! Pre-determined. I like that.

I do too, but note that there is a provision implied that it can be changed if necessary. This should not be a problem if the indicator is readily seen from above say 1,000'.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:42 PM
Post #34 of 60 (1061 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'd like the most reliable methods adopted to prevent this, and in some cases, the big arrow, or indicator, is a great way to go.

- if it points the same direction for the entire load.

Yes, that is important, and if there is a drastic wind shift at the wrong time, it will just have to be dealt with in the specified direction. What I'm shooting for is somebody to make the best decision as close to the landing window as possible, and the jumpers respecting that decision.


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 24, 2013, 6:15 PM
Post #35 of 60 (1039 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
At Skydive City there is a bright yellow arrow in the boarding area. It's about 4X10 feet, lays on the ground and is real heavy. Early in the day a consensus is gathered as to the landing direction by asking real loud "WHICH WAY ARE WE LANDING??!!" The arrow is then positioned to point into the wind as a strong suggestion that this is the way to land. It is adjusted throughout the day and is easily seen during boarding as well as in the air.

It helps a LOT!

jon

We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

This is good.

How are people supposed to plan their canopy flight and pattern if they don't know which way they (and everyone else) will be landing?


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 24, 2013, 7:05 PM
Post #36 of 60 (1012 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

WooHoo! Pre-determined. I like that.

I do too, but note that there is a provision implied that it can be changed if necessary. This should not be a problem if the indicator is readily seen from above say 1,000'.

Absolutely it can be changed if necessary.

But there is a process in place. It's not up to anyone to randomly decide the direction. Generally the CI or DZSO set the direction, but there are a couple of people who occasionally get delegated to look after the arrow. So common sense is applied, it may change between take-off and exit, but its not suddenly changed mid-patternPirate

You can easily see the arrow from 5k.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #37 of 60 (931 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to raise a big stink here I know...especially with some of the West Coasters where winds are claimed to radically change at any given moment...

First Man Down (FMD) sucks because it causes more problems than it solves.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 25, 2013, 10:23 AM
Post #38 of 60 (899 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>First Man Down (FMD) sucks because it causes more problems than it solves.

Good solution there - don't jump at places that use systems you don't understand/don't know how to use effectively. Or just land out.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 25, 2013, 1:05 PM
Post #39 of 60 (858 views)
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Re: [] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I owned a DZ...there would be a pre-determined direction before boarding..if a significant wind direction changed while during a load...folks are landing downwind if that happens to be how the wind changed. There would be a general announcement, and the pre-determined direction would change. Those that didn't like it, wouldn't need to jump at my DZ.

And guess what? People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

Its not even a landing priority for an AFF student. Why should it be for anyone else, including those with a gazillion jumps. If you can't land downwind, maybe the winds are too high for you to be jumping. An if you can't land downwind the 1 out of "X" amount of jumps the winds change while your on the plane, well...work on your downwind landings.

Of course, I don't own a DZ...So i'll stick to whatever the plan is at any given DZ I jump...and realize that many times, its chaos! Its really not as hard as some people make it.


(This post was edited by jacketsdb23 on Apr 25, 2013, 1:07 PM)


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Apr 25, 2013, 3:26 PM
Post #40 of 60 (812 views)
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Re: [] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

So I'll throw in what some US military units do for freefall jump ops.

A large (15' x 15') "V" or "L" with brightly colored marker panels. Face the open end of the V or you can read the L, then you are facing into the wind. It sits flat on the ground so it will not cause injury if you land on it.

It can be seen in freefall and under canopy, gives you a far recognition point as to where the ground winds are coming from to set up your pattern.

This method works because you have someone assigned to monitor the winds and move the arrow if need be which we call a Dropzone Safety Officer (DZSO). As a general rule, the arrow is not changed after the first jumper starts his landing pattern or approx. 1000ft.

Some places also have a flag/windsock that can be used to tell the real time wind speed as well. All jumpers are given an updated wind speed/gusts prior to dropping.

If winds are light (up to 3mph)/variable/no winds, then the wind arrow can be set up in the direction that makes most sense for safety (landing away from/parallel to hazards) or pre-established light wind landing directions.

Again, the key to that whole process working is that their is someone assigned to and knowledgable about the use and operation of the arrow AND jumpers are trained to use it/follow it. Its not 100% effective, the winds do change at the last minute sometimes or they forget to adjust the arrow and you end up doing a crosswinder/downwinder, but those are rare.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 25, 2013, 5:55 PM
Post #41 of 60 (788 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

> People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage. He still has the helmet, which is crushed almost beyond recognition. It undoubtedly saved his life.

If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind. He can kick me off his DZ; that's fine. I'd rather be driving to another DZ than waiting to hear from the neurologist about the broken neck.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #42 of 60 (755 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>First Man Down (FMD) sucks because it causes more problems than it solves.

Good solution there - don't jump at places that use systems you don't understand/don't know how to use effectively. Or just land out.

You make some ill-informed assumptions there, son.
But your suggestions to jump elsewhere or land out are good. Id recommend the first to all young jumpers and others with a healthy sense of self-preservation.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:06 PM
Post #43 of 60 (753 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage....
Even the best screw up sometimes. You seem to think that everyone will...all the time. Apparently you have little faith in your downwind skills if you are so afraid of them....either that or you are jumping in conditions you are not prepared to handle.

Injuries like that usually happen when you try to fight against the speed and try to stop it too soon. Fewer problems when you go with the flow instead of fighting against it.

In reply to:
If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind.....

Well, that tells the whole story right there.
Please don't jump any day I am jumping.

You should have taken your own advice about landing out.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 25, 2013, 8:16 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:13 PM
Post #44 of 60 (750 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And guess what? People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one...
A useful skill indeed. So many don't develop the skill and then cause havoc by doing stupid shit trying to avoid it.
Crazy


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:34 PM
Post #45 of 60 (741 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage. He still has the helmet, which is crushed almost beyond recognition. It undoubtedly saved his life.

If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind. He can kick me off his DZ; that's fine. I'd rather be driving to another DZ than waiting to hear from the neurologist about the broken neck.

+ several gazillion

Well spoken, Bruce!


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 25, 2013, 11:03 PM
Post #46 of 60 (722 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had to land a tandem downwind after getting cut off low.
I wasn't happy about it, and it was a brisky day....made for a sporting landing.

Swoop was up!


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 26, 2013, 9:49 AM
Post #47 of 60 (635 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage. He still has the helmet, which is crushed almost beyond recognition. It undoubtedly saved his life.

If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind. He can kick me off his DZ; that's fine. I'd rather be driving to another DZ than waiting to hear from the neurologist about the broken neck.


As long as it was away from the main landing area, OK. I'd probably have a designated out area where there are no rules, and people who want to go play there can. If you land in the main area, follow the designated landing direction.

The problem is...we've all seen really good skydivers get hurt landing into the wind too. 15 mph downwind isn't that crazy. In fact...we had 21 people just on Saturday land downwind (~12 - 14 mph) after ripping a big 270 or better. Nobody got hurt. Yes, everyone in that group trains for high performance landings...but the point is...you can practice it and get better.

Nobody should be afraid to land downwind
Nobody should intentionally ignore DZ pattern rules

I would always choose a load of downwind landings over chaos in the landing area. But thats me...and I'm a bit irrational sometimes.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 26, 2013, 9:51 AM
Post #48 of 60 (629 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>As long as it was away from the main landing area, OK.

A good solution overall, as long as it's large enough to accommodate a load that doesn't want to land downwind. (At most places it is.)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 26, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #49 of 60 (596 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Chase the wind/sock? Nope? FMD, nope.
IMO, pre-designated pattern works the best.

So, you're gonna come back with, "what if the winds change?"- before exit...notify the pilot to tell the jumpers.
- after exit...take what you got...............

Maybe rethinking your wind limits is in order here. Instead of "what is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable jumping in" as a cutoff point, how about "What is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable landing down wind in". This would go far to fix many problems. Smile


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Apr 26, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #50 of 60 (576 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just remember that not all landing areas are the same. We don't have nice smooth grass like in Florida. Our landing area is very bumpy and you can't slide out a landing very well on it. I know of other DZs in Texas which have gopher holes and such around the landing area.

I don't particularly want to try to slide out ( or run out!) a 15 mph downwind landing at many dropzones. Florida wouldn't be so bad!


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