Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Landing direction, revisited.

 


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Landing direction, revisited. Can't Post

I've posted before to promote large landing indicators at DZ's. My position was based on a marked improvement after my DZ installed a large arrow to indicate landing direction. It moved with the wind, and on days with a nice steady wind was the go to authority on which direction to land. Low wind, and squirrely wind days, not so much, but it seemed most jumpers followed the arrow, and chaos was small.

I moved near Spaceland, which has a tetrahedron, and found good landing conditions there. Most jumpers follow it, even on low wind days. It is there, saying 'land in this direction,' and people do.

So I go back to my old home DZ and find the arrow gone. Somebody hit it.

Landing chaos. This is unacceptable.

S&TA tries, states landing direction on the way up. Wind changes, I land downwind. No complaint.
I then witness this conversation:
Jumper: I'm landing into the wind.
S&TA; No, you need to land the same direction as everybody else.
Jumper: Fuck you, I'll land like I want.

And he did.

IMO, the arrow was a good thing. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:18 PM
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Land towards your grandfather!
Laugh


Wind vane type arrows are one of my favorites, so long as you can anchor it on low wind days. The problem I have seen is those that "chase the arrow".

I try to use more than one source on wind direction. Trees, wind blades, flags, smoke, etc.
I do generally support an agreed upon direction, at least until it's wrong.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:24 PM
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Re: [normiss] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do generally support an agreed upon direction, at least until it's wrong.

Then what? At the last possible moment, you choose to land opposite to everybody else? <insert comment here> ha ha.


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 24, 2013, 12:41 PM
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Landing away from those with no clue is my typical first thought.

Hey if you guys wanna get hurt smoking em downwind, I'll give you room.

If you're landing and end up with a "last possible moment", you fucked up before getting there. Wink


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2013, 1:24 PM
Post #5 of 60 (2674 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>IMO, the arrow was a good thing.

Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Apr 24, 2013, 1:26 PM
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

A tetrahedron that's hard enough to move not to swing around when winds are light and variable works well, too.

Wendy P.


theplummeter  (C License)

Apr 24, 2013, 1:43 PM
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Re: [wmw999] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I travel a lot for work, and try to jump in as many different places as possible.

Many smaller Cessna dropzones don't care where you land or how you set up, as long as you don't hit anyone else.

I love Eloy, planning that if the first jumper down takes it downwind then I have to keeps me on my toes and reinforces good canopy choices knowing that crosswind and downwind are likely on most jumps.

Mile Hi is excellent in that you always set up to land into the wind, which is helpful at a dropzone that high and with that much wind.

Either way, as long as the jumpers listen to and follow the rules it works. The real problem is when one person doesn't want to deal with the rules, and screws it up for everyone.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:02 PM
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Re: [normiss] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Landing away from those with no clue is my typical first thought.

>>> No, this is about landing in a different direction than most of the load, no matter what your motivation.

Hey if you guys wanna get hurt smoking em downwind, I'll give you room.

No, this is about light and variable winds. Nobody is smoking them downwind, and in fact the only ones going counter to the plan are a few rebels that land opposite to everyone else. Is it because they can't take an easy downwind landing? I don't know.

If you're landing and end up with a "last possible moment", you fucked up before getting there. Wink

Yep, that's why I like big arrows, easily seen from real high up.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:10 PM
Post #9 of 60 (2555 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've posted before to promote large landing indicators at DZ's. My position was based on a marked improvement after my DZ installed a large arrow to indicate landing direction. It moved with the wind, and on days with a nice steady wind was the go to authority on which direction to land. Low wind, and squirrely wind days, not so much, but it seemed most jumpers followed the arrow, and chaos was small.

I moved near Spaceland, which has a tetrahedron, and found good landing conditions there. Most jumpers follow it, even on low wind days. It is there, saying 'land in this direction,' and people do.

So I go back to my old home DZ and find the arrow gone. Somebody hit it.

Landing chaos. This is unacceptable.

S&TA tries, states landing direction on the way up. Wind changes, I land downwind. No complaint.
I then witness this conversation:
Jumper: I'm landing into the wind.
S&TA; No, you need to land the same direction as everybody else.
Jumper: Fuck you, I'll land like I want.

And he did.

IMO, the arrow was a good thing. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

As a fellow S&TA I'll continue the appropriate conversation for you....

S&TA: You're grounded, pack your shit and get off the DZ. BTW your name has been forwarded to the local DZ's and the USPA via the Regional director.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:14 PM
Post #10 of 60 (2550 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>IMO, the arrow was a good thing.

Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes.

Yes! When the wind is steady there is no need to worry about it, but when it's light and variable, having somebody standing there is a good way to reinforce the landing direction. This person has made the call, and can also watch for any violators.
Here is what I want to avoid:
People landing in the same area going different directions.
I think this is not the way to go.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #11 of 60 (2542 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a fellow S&TA I'll continue the appropriate conversation for you....

S&TA: You're grounded, pack your shit and get off the DZ. BTW your name has been forwarded to the local DZ's and the USPA via the Regional director.

This works too, and I support this approach.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:20 PM
Post #12 of 60 (2534 views)
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Re: [normiss] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I do generally support an agreed upon direction, at least until it's wrong.

Define "wrong".

"Hey if you guys wanna get hurt smoking em downwind, I'll give you room."

Is that it? Really? You choose chaos over downwind?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 24, 2013, 3:22 PM)


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:22 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are times that I have not wanted to go along with the established direction. Landing a long way out and doing all I can to be sure I'm alone is reasonable, I think.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:24 PM
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>IMO, the arrow was a good thing.

Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes.
Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.
Crazy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 24, 2013, 3:25 PM
Post #15 of 60 (2518 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.

Uh . . . no.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:29 PM
Post #16 of 60 (2512 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.

Uh . . . no.

You have some other explanation for what you said?

"Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes. "

If you meant between loads, you need to be more specific.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 24, 2013, 3:30 PM)


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:31 PM
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Re: [sundevil777] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are times that I have not wanted to go along with the established direction. Landing a long way out and doing all I can to be sure I'm alone is reasonable, I think.

Absolutely, and the proper course if you don't agree with the landing direction in the main landing area.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:37 PM
Post #18 of 60 (2497 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are times that I have not wanted to go along with the established direction. Landing a long way out and doing all I can to be sure I'm alone is reasonable, I think.

Absolutely, and the proper course if you don't agree with the landing direction in the main landing area.

+1


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 24, 2013, 3:38 PM
Post #19 of 60 (2496 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>"Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move
>the arrow when the wind changes. "
>If you meant between loads, you need to be more specific.

Of course between loads.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:39 PM
Post #20 of 60 (2495 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>Yep...some coming in low so you change it so the guys right behind him gets to meet him head on...yep.

Uh . . . no.

You have some other explanation for what you said?

"Arrows are a great way to go, provided they have someone who can quickly move the arrow when the wind changes. "

If you meant between loads, you need to be more specific.

I will stand up for between loads. If this is done, almost all questions are eliminated about which way to land.
I can see whole days where this won't need to be done, ie: when the wind is steady from one direction.

So once in a while, somebody has to go out there and point the way down for the load. Before the first guy gets down, a direction is chosen and the arrow is pointed. The person holds it till the last one is down, and incidentally, observes every landing they can see. Anyone violating any other jumper's safety is noted and talked to.
That's my idea.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:49 PM
Post #21 of 60 (2472 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've posted before to promote large landing indicators at DZ's. My position was based on a marked improvement after my DZ installed a large arrow to indicate landing direction. It moved with the wind, and on days with a nice steady wind was the go to authority on which direction to land. Low wind, and squirrely wind days, not so much, but it seemed most jumpers followed the arrow, and chaos was small.

I moved near Spaceland, which has a tetrahedron, and found good landing conditions there. Most jumpers follow it, even on low wind days. It is there, saying 'land in this direction,' and people do.

So I go back to my old home DZ and find the arrow gone. Somebody hit it.

Landing chaos. This is unacceptable.

S&TA tries, states landing direction on the way up. Wind changes, I land downwind. No complaint.
I then witness this conversation:
Jumper: I'm landing into the wind.
S&TA; No, you need to land the same direction as everybody else.
Jumper: Fuck you, I'll land like I want.

And he did.

IMO, the arrow was a good thing. I know it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

As a fellow S&TA I'll continue the appropriate conversation for you....

S&TA: You're grounded, pack your shit and get off the DZ. BTW your name has been forwarded to the local DZ's and the USPA via the Regional director.


BUT...that tends to merely silence the folks that think that way.
The old better to seek forgiveness than permission' thing.

I think a better tack would be to explain at length the reasoning behind set patterns & the problems created when that's not adhered to.

If someone makes a statement like Fuck you I'll do what I want - they're not getting the big picture.

Once having done that and then they go against the set pattern, escort them form the property. Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 24, 2013, 3:50 PM
Post #22 of 60 (2471 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Of course between loads.

Of course. One point that people seem to be missing is that it's rare that the winds will change to such a significant degree between take-off and landing. The plan you make while boarding should be able to stand the test of time, when that time it all of 20 minutes.

Can winds shift in 20 min? Sure, but the chances are that the winds are lighter, as in light and variable, and if you end up taking a crosswind or downwind landing in that case, so be it. The winds are light, it shouldn't be a problem.

If the atmospheric conditions are unstable to the point that the winds are high enough and can shift enough that it makes a downwinder a genuine 'danger', that's something you as a jumper should be aware of before loading the plane. Those conditions don't just come out of nowhere.

The statistical facts are that canopy collisions cause far more deaths/injuries than cross or downwind landings. Traffic control, that being having a plan in place that all jumpers follow is far more important than landing straight into the wind.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 24, 2013, 4:03 PM
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

At Skydive City there is a bright yellow arrow in the boarding area. It's about 4X10 feet, lays on the ground and is real heavy. Early in the day a consensus is gathered as to the landing direction by asking real loud "WHICH WAY ARE WE LANDING??!!" The arrow is then positioned to point into the wind as a strong suggestion that this is the way to land. It is adjusted throughout the day and is easily seen during boarding as well as in the air.

It helps a LOT!

jon


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #24 of 60 (2448 views)
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Re: Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

All this landing direction talk seems to ignore the abilities and skills of everyone on the load.

We like to talk about what WE would like to see. The problem is that not everyone has the skills we do.
Students, low-timers with little skill as yet, experienced with little skill as yet and then you have the experienced with the skills that won't obey the rules.

How do you organize all those people to land safely with us if you change the rules in the middle of their canopy flight? You can't. You're gonna have people all over the place adjusting patterns, trying to do what they think is right, and most of them are wrong. You cannot expect the unskilled to be able to float on the fly like that on a daily, full-time basis

Chase the wind/sock? Nope? FMD, nope.
IMO, pre-designated pattern works the best.

So, you're gonna come back with, "what if the winds change?"
- before exit...notify the pilot to tell the jumpers.
- after exit...take what you got.

Now you're gonna say, "But what about downwinders?"
- If you are afraid of downwinders,
* you have never done/practiced them
* you seem to think that downwind is worse than multi-directional landings.


I'll tell ya', the DZ I worked had pre-deginated landing direction. It was set up to be as much into the wind as feasible. AFF students and everyone else got good experience landing cross-wind and in the worst situations, got experience landing downwinders. If the winds were too fast for students to be landing downwind, they didn't jump. They got the experience a little at a time and built skills and confidence that they could handle faster winds when they got out on their own.

I'll put those students up against any of your "chase the sock/wind" people.


"Yeah but what about landing off"
- Sometimes your landing direction is limited when you land off....whatchya gonna do if that direction happens to be downwind and you've never done/practiced them?

One large DZ here in Florida has a "standard left-hand pattern into the wind"
Works well until the winds change and people chase the winds landing in every direction you can imagine...never mind the "rules don't apply to me" guys.

Another has the same...except when the bigways are running. Fortunately, most of the organizers that I have jumped with, so far, recognize the problem with that and call a pre-designated pattern...very few close calls. Those that occur...guess who?

As always, YMMV.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 4:10 PM
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Adequate, I'll concede...to a point. Same as pre-designated except that the jumpers have no clue until they are under canopy. If they can find it early enough to adjust smoothly without running into somebody.

Jon mentioned Skydive City. Pre-designated...finally, for them. Good stuff.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 24, 2013, 4:19 PM
Post #26 of 60 (1091 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>How do you organize all those people to land safely with us if you change the rules in
>the middle of their canopy flight? You can't.

Agreed. The ONLY time this is ever OK is due to a safety issue - a thunderstorm is coming and the winds just reversed and went to 15mph. Folding it up is another good way to indicate "do not follow the arrow!"

This is rare, though, and as long as someone is available to move the arrow when it needs to be moved (rarely in most places) it works well.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:00 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

This was the worst of both worlds. Everyone agreed the winds were quite squirrely, and did switch directions a lot over the weekend. Just the time for someone out directing landings, as conditions sometimes warranted a change from when the plane took off.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:18 PM
Post #28 of 60 (1064 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At Skydive City there is a bright yellow arrow in the boarding area. It's about 4X10 feet, lays on the ground and is real heavy. Early in the day a consensus is gathered as to the landing direction by asking real loud "WHICH WAY ARE WE LANDING??!!" The arrow is then positioned to point into the wind as a strong suggestion that this is the way to land. It is adjusted throughout the day and is easily seen during boarding as well as in the air.

It helps a LOT!

jon

We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:24 PM
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Re: [theplummeter] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I travel a lot for work, and try to jump in as many different places as possible.

Many smaller Cessna dropzones don't care where you land or how you set up, as long as you don't hit anyone else.

>>> I've traveled a lot myself, and seen bad behavior in a lot of places, including reputable DZ's.
I totally agree that different places have different hazards, and requirements vary. One size does not fit all.

I love Eloy, planning that if the first jumper down takes it downwind then I have to keeps me on my toes and reinforces good canopy choices knowing that crosswind and downwind are likely on most jumps.

>>> I've jumped there, and commend their landing practices.

Mile Hi is excellent in that you always set up to land into the wind, which is helpful at a dropzone that high and with that much wind.

Either way, as long as the jumpers listen to and follow the rules it works. The real problem is when one person doesn't want to deal with the rules, and screws it up for everyone.

I've seen the consequences of two people landing in different directions at the same time. The more people do it, the greater the chance of an accident.
I'd like the most reliable methods adopted to prevent this, and in some cases, the big arrow, or indicator, is a great way to go.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:32 PM
Post #30 of 60 (1056 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>How do you organize all those people to land safely with us if you change the rules in
>the middle of their canopy flight? You can't.

The ONLY time this is ever OK is due to a safety issue - a thunderstorm is coming and the winds just reversed and went to 15mph.

+1
However,

In reply to:
Folding it up is another good way to indicate "do not follow the arrow!".

If you are still talking about canopies being in the air...
-1
It seems to me that pulling the plug and leaving everyone to their own devices is the worst thing to do.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:33 PM
Post #31 of 60 (1055 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

WooHoo! Pre-determined. I like that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:36 PM
Post #32 of 60 (1052 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd like the most reliable methods adopted to prevent this, and in some cases, the big arrow, or indicator, is a great way to go.

- if it points the same direction for the entire load.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:38 PM
Post #33 of 60 (1047 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

WooHoo! Pre-determined. I like that.

I do too, but note that there is a provision implied that it can be changed if necessary. This should not be a problem if the indicator is readily seen from above say 1,000'.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 24, 2013, 5:42 PM
Post #34 of 60 (1042 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'd like the most reliable methods adopted to prevent this, and in some cases, the big arrow, or indicator, is a great way to go.

- if it points the same direction for the entire load.

Yes, that is important, and if there is a drastic wind shift at the wrong time, it will just have to be dealt with in the specified direction. What I'm shooting for is somebody to make the best decision as close to the landing window as possible, and the jumpers respecting that decision.


DocPop  (C License)

Apr 24, 2013, 6:15 PM
Post #35 of 60 (1020 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
At Skydive City there is a bright yellow arrow in the boarding area. It's about 4X10 feet, lays on the ground and is real heavy. Early in the day a consensus is gathered as to the landing direction by asking real loud "WHICH WAY ARE WE LANDING??!!" The arrow is then positioned to point into the wind as a strong suggestion that this is the way to land. It is adjusted throughout the day and is easily seen during boarding as well as in the air.

It helps a LOT!

jon

We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

This is good.

How are people supposed to plan their canopy flight and pattern if they don't know which way they (and everyone else) will be landing?


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 24, 2013, 7:05 PM
Post #36 of 60 (993 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
We've got the same thing except it's red. It works well and allows holding areas etc to be determined very early on, usually before boarding.

WooHoo! Pre-determined. I like that.

I do too, but note that there is a provision implied that it can be changed if necessary. This should not be a problem if the indicator is readily seen from above say 1,000'.

Absolutely it can be changed if necessary.

But there is a process in place. It's not up to anyone to randomly decide the direction. Generally the CI or DZSO set the direction, but there are a couple of people who occasionally get delegated to look after the arrow. So common sense is applied, it may change between take-off and exit, but its not suddenly changed mid-patternPirate

You can easily see the arrow from 5k.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #37 of 60 (912 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to raise a big stink here I know...especially with some of the West Coasters where winds are claimed to radically change at any given moment...

First Man Down (FMD) sucks because it causes more problems than it solves.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 25, 2013, 10:23 AM
Post #38 of 60 (880 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>First Man Down (FMD) sucks because it causes more problems than it solves.

Good solution there - don't jump at places that use systems you don't understand/don't know how to use effectively. Or just land out.


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 25, 2013, 1:05 PM
Post #39 of 60 (839 views)
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Re: [] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I owned a DZ...there would be a pre-determined direction before boarding..if a significant wind direction changed while during a load...folks are landing downwind if that happens to be how the wind changed. There would be a general announcement, and the pre-determined direction would change. Those that didn't like it, wouldn't need to jump at my DZ.

And guess what? People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

Its not even a landing priority for an AFF student. Why should it be for anyone else, including those with a gazillion jumps. If you can't land downwind, maybe the winds are too high for you to be jumping. An if you can't land downwind the 1 out of "X" amount of jumps the winds change while your on the plane, well...work on your downwind landings.

Of course, I don't own a DZ...So i'll stick to whatever the plan is at any given DZ I jump...and realize that many times, its chaos! Its really not as hard as some people make it.


(This post was edited by jacketsdb23 on Apr 25, 2013, 1:07 PM)


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Apr 25, 2013, 3:26 PM
Post #40 of 60 (793 views)
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Re: [] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

So I'll throw in what some US military units do for freefall jump ops.

A large (15' x 15') "V" or "L" with brightly colored marker panels. Face the open end of the V or you can read the L, then you are facing into the wind. It sits flat on the ground so it will not cause injury if you land on it.

It can be seen in freefall and under canopy, gives you a far recognition point as to where the ground winds are coming from to set up your pattern.

This method works because you have someone assigned to monitor the winds and move the arrow if need be which we call a Dropzone Safety Officer (DZSO). As a general rule, the arrow is not changed after the first jumper starts his landing pattern or approx. 1000ft.

Some places also have a flag/windsock that can be used to tell the real time wind speed as well. All jumpers are given an updated wind speed/gusts prior to dropping.

If winds are light (up to 3mph)/variable/no winds, then the wind arrow can be set up in the direction that makes most sense for safety (landing away from/parallel to hazards) or pre-established light wind landing directions.

Again, the key to that whole process working is that their is someone assigned to and knowledgable about the use and operation of the arrow AND jumpers are trained to use it/follow it. Its not 100% effective, the winds do change at the last minute sometimes or they forget to adjust the arrow and you end up doing a crosswinder/downwinder, but those are rare.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 25, 2013, 5:55 PM
Post #41 of 60 (769 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

> People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage. He still has the helmet, which is crushed almost beyond recognition. It undoubtedly saved his life.

If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind. He can kick me off his DZ; that's fine. I'd rather be driving to another DZ than waiting to hear from the neurologist about the broken neck.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #42 of 60 (736 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>First Man Down (FMD) sucks because it causes more problems than it solves.

Good solution there - don't jump at places that use systems you don't understand/don't know how to use effectively. Or just land out.

You make some ill-informed assumptions there, son.
But your suggestions to jump elsewhere or land out are good. Id recommend the first to all young jumpers and others with a healthy sense of self-preservation.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:06 PM
Post #43 of 60 (734 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage....
Even the best screw up sometimes. You seem to think that everyone will...all the time. Apparently you have little faith in your downwind skills if you are so afraid of them....either that or you are jumping in conditions you are not prepared to handle.

Injuries like that usually happen when you try to fight against the speed and try to stop it too soon. Fewer problems when you go with the flow instead of fighting against it.

In reply to:
If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind.....

Well, that tells the whole story right there.
Please don't jump any day I am jumping.

You should have taken your own advice about landing out.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Apr 25, 2013, 8:16 PM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:13 PM
Post #44 of 60 (731 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And guess what? People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one...
A useful skill indeed. So many don't develop the skill and then cause havoc by doing stupid shit trying to avoid it.
Crazy


sundevil777  (D License)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:34 PM
Post #45 of 60 (722 views)
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Re: [billvon] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage. He still has the helmet, which is crushed almost beyond recognition. It undoubtedly saved his life.

If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind. He can kick me off his DZ; that's fine. I'd rather be driving to another DZ than waiting to hear from the neurologist about the broken neck.

+ several gazillion

Well spoken, Bruce!


normiss  (D 28356)

Apr 25, 2013, 11:03 PM
Post #46 of 60 (703 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've had to land a tandem downwind after getting cut off low.
I wasn't happy about it, and it was a brisky day....made for a sporting landing.

Swoop was up!


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 26, 2013, 9:49 AM
Post #47 of 60 (616 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
> People would be able to land downwind, because they would be forced to, from day one.

I have seen one of the best in the business try to land downwind in a 15mph wind. He survived - but with a broken neck and a lot of other damage. He still has the helmet, which is crushed almost beyond recognition. It undoubtedly saved his life.

If it's a choice between that and follow some DZ's rule, I'm going for an into the wind landing and a hearty "fuck you" to a DZ who tells me I should have landed downwind. He can kick me off his DZ; that's fine. I'd rather be driving to another DZ than waiting to hear from the neurologist about the broken neck.


As long as it was away from the main landing area, OK. I'd probably have a designated out area where there are no rules, and people who want to go play there can. If you land in the main area, follow the designated landing direction.

The problem is...we've all seen really good skydivers get hurt landing into the wind too. 15 mph downwind isn't that crazy. In fact...we had 21 people just on Saturday land downwind (~12 - 14 mph) after ripping a big 270 or better. Nobody got hurt. Yes, everyone in that group trains for high performance landings...but the point is...you can practice it and get better.

Nobody should be afraid to land downwind
Nobody should intentionally ignore DZ pattern rules

I would always choose a load of downwind landings over chaos in the landing area. But thats me...and I'm a bit irrational sometimes.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 26, 2013, 9:51 AM
Post #48 of 60 (610 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

>As long as it was away from the main landing area, OK.

A good solution overall, as long as it's large enough to accommodate a load that doesn't want to land downwind. (At most places it is.)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 26, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #49 of 60 (577 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Chase the wind/sock? Nope? FMD, nope.
IMO, pre-designated pattern works the best.

So, you're gonna come back with, "what if the winds change?"- before exit...notify the pilot to tell the jumpers.
- after exit...take what you got...............

Maybe rethinking your wind limits is in order here. Instead of "what is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable jumping in" as a cutoff point, how about "What is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable landing down wind in". This would go far to fix many problems. Smile


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Apr 26, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #50 of 60 (557 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just remember that not all landing areas are the same. We don't have nice smooth grass like in Florida. Our landing area is very bumpy and you can't slide out a landing very well on it. I know of other DZs in Texas which have gopher holes and such around the landing area.

I don't particularly want to try to slide out ( or run out!) a 15 mph downwind landing at many dropzones. Florida wouldn't be so bad!


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Apr 26, 2013, 10:53 AM
Post #51 of 60 (593 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just remember that not all landing areas are the same. We don't have nice smooth grass like in Florida. Our landing area is very bumpy and you can't slide out a landing very well on it. I know of other DZs in Texas which have gopher holes and such around the landing area.

I don't particularly want to try to slide out ( or run out!) a 15 mph downwind landing at many dropzones. Florida wouldn't be so bad!

Very fair point. I guess I haven't jumped many places that would fall into that category, but I understand it.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Apr 26, 2013, 11:21 AM
Post #52 of 60 (566 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

> Instead of "what is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable jumping in" as a cutoff
>point, how about "What is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable landing down wind
>in". This would go far to fix many problems.

That's a very good question to ask oneself, and can save you a lot of pain. The one time it doesn't work is when you take off in 8mph winds and discover them blowing to 15 once you open. But as you said as long as there is still a place to land into the wind - perhaps away from the main landing area - that shouldn't be an issue.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 26, 2013, 12:33 PM
Post #53 of 60 (533 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe rethinking your wind limits is in order here. Instead of "what is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable jumping in" as a cutoff point, how about "What is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable landing down wind in". This would go far to fix many problems. Smile

True dat.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 26, 2013, 12:43 PM
Post #54 of 60 (521 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Instead of "what is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable jumping in" as a cutoff point, how about "What is the highest wind speed I'm comfortable landing down wind in".

I would contend that we should already be teaching that the first statement should already include the 2nd as one of the considerations.

Though, on a windier day, the winds are typically steadier and it's not a real reach to say that I'll be landing into the wind for sure. I think the application of the concept is, I'll contend, really one that has to do with turbulence tolerance (totally different than just wind speed). Or even about winds on a wind that's 'shifty' day. If you get my drift....

Short hand - if it's steady, I'll jump up to 25mph, no problem. But if it's bumpy/shifty, that number goes WAY down. I can sit and watch the tandems jump for fun at that point......

edit: maybe it's the same thing, I guess if it's steady, I'm ok with the downwind landing, I won't like it, but I know how to ride it out. I'm not one of the guys that do it on purpose, so that's a different discussion.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 26, 2013, 12:45 PM)


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Apr 26, 2013, 3:05 PM
Post #55 of 60 (467 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Spaceland's rule - except in the well-separated pond area - is that everyone follows the tetrahedron. When the wind is too light to position it a staffer anchors it in the direction of the prevailing wind or in a default direction if winds are so light they wander or are absent.

It works very well, but does require someone to be diligent about actively monitoring the winds.


fasted3  (D 30104)

Apr 26, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #56 of 60 (453 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Spaceland is a great example of how to do it right.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Apr 27, 2013, 2:02 PM
Post #57 of 60 (400 views)
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Re: [fasted3] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

You have a very good thread since landing in the best possible conditions is important. After all, people get hurt generally when they land. I found out that the best not too expensive way to indicate the wind is using a wind blade. Manufacturers of equipment will send them free of charges to a DZ. If you then attach to the wind blade tail a couple of long fluo fabric bands (25 feet long), that will give you the wind direction even when winds are calm. I have used a Vigil wind blade for years with those fabric bands (you can buy them in any fabric store for few dollars) and it works perfect. What I did is using a hot knife and cut the pieces of fabric to get 2 inches wide bands and simply attaching them with a double overhand knot.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 27, 2013, 6:03 PM
Post #58 of 60 (383 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I found out that the best not too expensive way to indicate the wind is using a wind blade....give you the wind direction even when winds are calm.

Gotta disagree. Too much change going on with canopies in the sky promotes haphazard landing directions.....chaos.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Apr 28, 2013, 12:18 AM
Post #59 of 60 (353 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You have a very good thread since landing in the best possible conditions is important. After all, people get hurt generally when they land. I found out that the best not too expensive way to indicate the wind is using a wind blade. Manufacturers of equipment will send them free of charges to a DZ. If you then attach to the wind blade tail a couple of long fluo fabric bands (25 feet long), that will give you the wind direction even when winds are calm. I have used a Vigil wind blade for years with those fabric bands (you can buy them in any fabric store for few dollars) and it works perfect. What I did is using a hot knife and cut the pieces of fabric to get 2 inches wide bands and simply attaching them with a double overhand knot.

We have a couple set up this way here, and they work great. Even with two Otters, a Skyvan, and a Caravan running at the same time, or double jump runs, direction is rarely a problem.
There is a skydiver whose company custom-prints blades, and you can get whatever you'd like.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 28, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #60 of 60 (298 views)
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Re: [DSE] Landing direction, revisited. [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny how after all the talk about tetrahedrons and arrows being good as long as they don't change with canopies in the air ("So common sense is applied, it may change between take-off and exit, but its not suddenly changed mid-pattern"....and such other similar comments) we now have proponents of wind blades that do exactly that in even the lightest breezes.
Crazy

Wind blades are great if they are not swinging all around at the slightest change.



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