Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia

 


mik  (D 11111)

Mar 24, 2013, 10:55 PM
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Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia Can't Post

Here is a link to the article I found last night (all Russian)

http://www.kp.ru/daily/26011/2935786/

My Russian is a very long way from perfect but key extracts as I understand them...

- 2 jumpers with 900 and 200 jumps were jumping from an AN2 at about 4,500 feet

- jumpers were aged 53 and 43

- 8 January is part of the long Christmas holidays in Russia

- they decided they wanted to get extended free fall time so switched off their AADs before the jump

- witnesses on the ground suggested the men started to deploy their mains at about 100m. both impacted with no mains (seems like perhaps one of the pilot chutes inflated but nothing else)

- minus 25c at ground level on the day of the jump

I don't know the DZ, the area or the jumpers. My guess would be that if this was their main dz, they would be used to jumps from a similar altitude and may not have had an awareness of how much free fall time would be "safe" from 4,500 feet. At this time of the year, the ground would most likely be covered by deep snow. whether this impacted their ability to "eyeball" the ground is not stated but could be a possibility. I have no idea whether they would be using altis.

If not used to freefall in such temperatures, it is possible that their goggles (which could be fine for delays of a few seconds) may not have been adequate for longer periods of freefall (adequate in terms of enabling them to see clearly).

Crazy Russians !!!!!!!


(This post was edited by mik on Mar 24, 2013, 11:00 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:07 PM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Snow covering the terrain effects depth perception....just sayin' Unimpressed


Maksimsf  (B 37743)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:14 PM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In article it says most experienced skydivers. One with 200 and another with 900 jumps.. huh? They jumped at 1400m and decided to pull @ 100m. I guess they jumped Para commanders, but thats just a guess...

first jumper - canopy didn't get inflated and 2nd jumper - canopy didn't left a D-bag.

P.S. 100m is ~ 300 ft.

If that's a case - it's just fucking stupid.


(This post was edited by Maksimsf on Mar 24, 2013, 11:19 PM)


piisfish

Mar 25, 2013, 2:03 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Snow covering the terrain effects depth perception....just sayin' Unimpressed
Quote:
- 2 jumpers with 900 and 200 jumps were jumping from ... about 4,500 feet
- they decided they wanted to get extended free fall time so switched off their AADs before the jump
low pull contest, just sayin' Unsure

we are always more "intelligent" afterwards, but it seems that as you are aware you are jumping low and that you intend to pull "lower than usual", you should have some added awareness about your altitude.

condolences to the russian jumping family


(This post was edited by piisfish on Mar 25, 2013, 2:05 AM)


potatoman  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:17 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Extended freefall time by switching off their AAD?

For that extra second.......

I know years back there were some real physcos that started the 1000Ft club, and held hands till underneath 1000Ft, and then only deployed. I met a few of them.
Must say, they planned it well, also packed for a super fast opening, and only did it once to prove they can do it.


unkulunkulu  (C License)

Mar 25, 2013, 5:39 AM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is the video, if you wish Unsure
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=bknZIkT3iTw


(This post was edited by unkulunkulu on Mar 25, 2013, 5:40 AM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:54 AM
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Unsure

Thanks for posting the vid, err, I think,...

My most sincere condolances...


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:01 AM
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here is the video, if you wish Unsure
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=bknZIkT3iTw

Geez... Leave it to the Russians to actually show video of the impact.... Pirate


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:04 AM
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Re: [BillyVance] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Yea I was just going to post that if any of you don't want to watch someone go in on their own cam, don't watch that vid.


ChrisD  (No License)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:16 AM
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Re: [stratostar] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yea I was just going to post that if any of you don't want to watch someone go in on their own cam, don't watch that vid.

The warning is much appreciated Dan, on the other hand perhaps it should be "required viewing"?
Unsure


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:18 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Yea I was just going to post that if any of you don't want to watch someone go in on their own cam, don't watch that vid.

The warning is much appreciated Dan, on the other hand perhaps it should be "required viewing"?
Unsure

Well, there's no blood and you don't see anything but the hands holding onto the risers and then WHACK and the video cuts away to the commentators immediately. But the ground rush, whoa!

BTW, the camera was still running right after impact.


(This post was edited by BillyVance on Mar 25, 2013, 7:19 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:33 AM
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a good video of how not to do a low pull. The guy with the camera is watching his buddy too much, with a lot of snowy open field right in front of him; he takes the time to turn 90-180 degrees before deploying; and he has a nice 'modern' snivel on deployment.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:52 AM
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Re: Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

I just can't imagine how anyone would think pulling that low would be a good idea. If rigged with something resembling a BASE configuration, it might be survivable at 300 to 400'. Years ago I watched a guy twice from terminal deploy at around 400', once from the airplane, once from the ground. He had Raven main, and packed to open fast. Looked damn scary to me.

Watching the video, and not understanding the commentary, I just assumed that it was file footage. Had the thought that it was pretty poor file footage, then figured out toward the bottom that it was actual impact video.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:22 AM
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Re: [skydived19006] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, the ground comes up fast at that altitude. Could have lived it it didn't snivel as much. I would bet this wasn't their first low pull, anybody that dumb probably does it regularly.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:48 AM
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Re: [potatoman] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Extended freefall time by switching off their AAD?

For that extra second.......
About 11-12 seconds actually. . .
One second wouldn't kill you. Crazy


A few years ago some jumpers did a 2 point 2 way from 2 grand. One jumper's aad fired and he was severely injured landing a downplane.

Next morning I heard 2 noob jumpers discussing turning off their AAD's because they were doing hop & pops from 4500'. I told them to leave them on, of course, and if there was ever a jump where they needed to turn them off to be "safe", they should reconsider that jump.


lawrocket  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:40 AM
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Booth's law #1.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:50 AM
Post #17 of 41 (3512 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Extended freefall time by switching off their AAD?

For that extra second.......
About 11-12 seconds actually. . .
One second wouldn't kill you. Crazy


A few years ago some jumpers did a 2 point 2 way from 2 grand. One jumper's aad fired and he was severely injured landing a downplane.

Next morning I heard 2 noob jumpers discussing turning off their AAD's because they were doing hop & pops from 4500'. I told them to leave them on, of course, and if there was ever a jump where they needed to turn them off to be "safe", they should reconsider that jump.


Ya can only TIE the low-pull record! Crazy


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:13 AM
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Re: [lawrocket] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Booth's law #1.
Yep.Unsure


raff

Mar 25, 2013, 8:53 PM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

 

- 8 January is part of the long Christmas holidays in RussiaNot so long as it should have been. Pretty horrible, but I kind of agree that this should be required viewing for the "dead-zone" (50 - 1000 jump) crowd.

So sad.


skywombat  (D 31874)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:57 PM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

The following is based strictly on a translation of the news report video:
Quote:
Their fall lasted 30 seconds, falling at 50 meters per second. Eyewitnesses reported initiation of opening at approximately 70 meters. Main should be opened by at least 300 meters. They were conducting "exercise 31", which is a delayed jump. Training manual requires a delay of no more than 10 seconds when jumping from 1200m, and no more than 15 seconds when jumping from 1500m. These guys jumped from 1400m and had a 23 second delay. Cypres2 was not turned on.

Frown


(This post was edited by skywombat on Mar 25, 2013, 9:58 PM)


jjudd  (D 31065)

Mar 26, 2013, 11:35 AM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

pure stupidity, notjing but. 2 people dead for no reason. Clear and pull for any hop and pop if its that cold, if you have a malfunction id imagine it might be a difficult cutaway and every bit of extra time in that weather would be nice to have.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Mar 26, 2013, 11:39 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Snow covering the terrain effects depth perception....just sayin'


Thats why we have altimeters and ditters. and from 5k or 1200M you know you have little time to deploy regardless of any of those devices. this is a clear case of poor choices made by two jumpers that hurts the sports publicity, positive media, and now leaves two families without there loved ones.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:11 PM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

from the video I'm a bit surprised he didn't survive the landing. get busted up, yeah, but surprised he didn't survive.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:32 PM
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Re: [skypuppy] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
from the video I'm a bit surprised he didn't survive the landing. get busted up, yeah, but surprised he didn't survive.

Are you kidding? ...The slider hadn't even begun to even come down the lines yet!! Unless the snow was >20ft deep where he hit, there was NO WAY that was survivable at that stage of impact. - Please.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:57 PM
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Re: [pchapman] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's a good video of how not to do a low pull.

For sure. I would never do a low pull that way. Heck I know at least 3 or 4 better ways to do a low pull than that.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:46 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Yea I was just going to post that if any of you don't want to watch someone go in on their own cam, don't watch that vid.

The warning is much appreciated Dan, on the other hand perhaps it should be "required viewing"?
Unsure

Well, there's no blood and you don't see anything but the hands holding onto the risers and then WHACK and the video cuts away to the commentators immediately. But the ground rush, whoa!

BTW, the camera was still running right after impact.

A little later on there is video of the deceased in the snow next to the canopy, a bit harsh maybe but perhaps it can serve as a wake-up call to others so inclined toward such foolish carelessness.

Sometimes you get lucky - sometimes not, but when you don't ~ it's over ...forever...just THAT quick.


Mac  (C 101464)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:45 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Low pulls on skydiving gear is asking for the reaper to come breath down your neck and flip and coin to bet against the variables.

However, this wasnt just a low pull that the coin landed against the participant and caused a variable that requires some room for error, from the video, visually at least, they went past the point of no return.

Thoughts to family and friends.... this sucks.


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Mar 27, 2013, 4:49 AM
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Re: [mik] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

When you are low, a reserve deployment may be a better option.


Mac  (C 101464)

Mar 27, 2013, 5:23 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
When you are low, a reserve deployment may be a better option.

Unfortunately (and stupidly), many many years ago, I found myself in a low deployment situation (<1000ft @ terminal), and my automatic reaction was to deploy my main. I put this down to being the repeated process over many jumps to save your life, by deploying your main, becomes the auto-response to wanting something out above your head. Reserve drills are dialled in for malfunctions, but seeing the ground at that altitude, my automatic instinct was to dump out my main as quickly as possible. I ended up with my cypres firing at the same time as I deployed, without any issues, thankfully.

So although its probably the better option, I am sure that most peoples auto-reaction would be to deploy the main as normal.


(This post was edited by Mac on Mar 27, 2013, 5:32 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 27, 2013, 5:33 AM
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Re: [Mac] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
So although its probably the better option, I am sure that most peoples auto-reaction would be to deploy the main as normal.
You're not the only one

Wendy P.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 5:44 AM
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Re: [Mac] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

This is why my practice for emergency procedures includes going straight for the reserve. While I hope I never put myself in a low situation like that I know I am not immune to mistakes. It is also helpful for tandem scenarios where we might be approaching tandem terminal speeds quickly or have possible drogue entanglement issues. People need to think about emergency procedures more than they typically do. The three handles are not necessarily pulled in order for EVERY given circumstance even on a sport rig. The response has to be conditioned. You have no time to think under a grand, you have to react immediately and appropriately. If you don't condition your response then you will just go for the main, because it is what you are conditioned to do.

Just curious if you did any practicing for going straight to reserve before your incident you described? If not do you do so now?

Going silver might have saved this guys life.


(This post was edited by billvon on Mar 27, 2013, 1:58 PM)


Mac  (C 101464)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:13 AM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just curious if you did any practicing for going straight to reserve before your incident you described? If not do you do so now?

Going silver might have saved this guys life.

From memory, at the time of the incident I had around 250/300 jumps (no reserves), I hardly practiced reserve drills (I was in the bomb proof stage) never mind other scenarios.

Certainly now (not because of that incident but because of getting more respect as the years roll on), I do go through alot of "what ifs", and this includes the muscle memory and mindset for pulling reserve without main deployment.


(This post was edited by Mac on Mar 27, 2013, 6:15 AM)


Premier cpoxon  (D 11665)
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Mar 27, 2013, 6:46 AM
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Re: [wmw999] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So although its probably the better option, I am sure that most peoples auto-reaction would be to deploy the main as normal.
You're not the only one

Wendy P.

The difference being these guys were planning to intentionally go low. If one was planning to do that, one might want to prepare differently. Maybe they did, but still acted instinctively. We'll never know. We'll also never know if their reasoning behind switching off the AADs was to avoid a dual canopy situation or to save the price of a cutter. I'm assuming they were modern, electronic AADs rather than something like a KAP.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 9:47 AM
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Re: [BillyVance] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Here is the video, if you wish Unsure
http://www.youtube.com/...ed&v=bknZIkT3iTw

Geez... Leave it to the Russians to actually show video of the impact.... Pirate

On the other hand if it brings home the reality of what we do to some of the "bulletproof/deny reality" generation......


mik  (D 11111)

Mar 27, 2013, 10:23 AM
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Re: [cpoxon] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
So although its probably the better option, I am sure that most peoples auto-reaction would be to deploy the main as normal.
You're not the only one

Wendy P.

The difference being these guys were planning to intentionally go low. If one was planning to do that, one might want to prepare differently. Maybe they did, but still acted instinctively. We'll never know. We'll also never know if their reasoning behind switching off the AADs was to avoid a dual canopy situation or to save the price of a cutter. I'm assuming they were modern, electronic AADs rather than something like a KAP.

Cypres 2 AAD per the news report containing the video, so your assumption is correct.

Also, if my Russian is correct, there is a comment in the video that they intended to open their parachutes 7 seconds before the end of the freefall (I assume at about 1500 feet). Clearly, not a great deal of room for error!!


(This post was edited by mik on Mar 27, 2013, 12:30 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 27, 2013, 1:58 PM
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

>This is why my practice for emergency procedures includes going straight
>for the reserve. While I hope I never put myself in a low situation like that

>If you don't condition your response then you will just go for the main,
>because it is what you are conditioned to do.

This is a good thing to practice; however, I have never, ever seen a situation where a jumper instinctively went to a reserve over a main when he was low. This includes a case where:

1) the jumper was a current AFF-I
2) he was aware he might go low
3) he was asked what he would do and he said "I would pull my reserve" (and then pantomimed pulling his reserve on the ground)
4) he was aware of his exit altitude which was lower than planned
5) he was aware in freefall that he was very low

After all that he was unable to pull his reserve; he opened his main out of habit.

Thus while this is a good thing to practice it is not a good thing to rely on being able to do, and thus practice for dealing with two-out situations (for those with AAD's) or reasonably fast opening mains (for those without) are very good ideas.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:18 PM
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Re: [billvon] Double fatality, 8 January 2013, Dosaaf Komi, Russia [In reply to] Can't Post

Point taken Bill.

However I have seen it the other way too.

Couch Freaks 2 or 3 years ago a jumper was knocked unconscious, came to and pulled silver. He was LOW LOW. Had a round reserve too. Landed in the corn. It happen just above the landing area directly in front of my tent. He was jumping the next day I believe.

I try to practice for all situations, including two out as you mentioned.

Will I be able to execute correctly? I hope so. My life could depend on it.


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 27, 2013, 3:51 PM)











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