Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name?

 


Poll: Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name?
Yes! 95 / 90%
No 10 / 10%
105 total votes
 
EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:15 AM
Post #1 of 67 (2566 views)
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Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? Can't Post

Well?

I personally think "secret ballots" should not be allowed. I will go a step further and say that I think we should demand that our elected officials vote by name for ANY vote. I feel we have a right to know where our officials stand on issues so that we may make better informed votes when it comes to re-elections.

What say you?

Edited for grammar and spelling


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 24, 2013, 11:16 AM)


roostnureye  (D 32166)

Mar 24, 2013, 3:57 PM
Post #2 of 67 (2467 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well?

I personally think "secret ballots" should not be allowed. I will go a step further and say that I think we should demand that our elected officials vote by name for ANY vote. I feel we have a right to know where our officials stand on issues so that we may make better informed votes when it comes to re-elections.

agreed 100% i want to know who is voting for what

What say you?

Edited for grammar and spelling


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 24, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #3 of 67 (2433 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

82 views, only 15 votes....really wtf?

Maybe a Mod could move this to a more appropriate forum?

Funny how it is 100 percent so far though. I would love to hear someone argue against it.

USPA take notice ;-)


wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:34 AM
Post #4 of 67 (2406 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Maybe a Mod could move this to a more appropriate forum?
I will say it's kind of funny to see something about skydiving in SC Laugh.

Wendy P.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:19 AM
Post #5 of 67 (2395 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Maybe a Mod could move this to a more appropriate forum?
I will say it's kind of funny to see something about skydiving in SC Laugh.

Wendy P.

Yeh. Why would this not be in the USPA BOD forum?
Whatever.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:44 AM
Post #6 of 67 (2385 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I didn't know where to put it. The BOD sounded like it was just for elections by reading the description. It is kind of politics, albeit USPA politics so I figured fuck it SC.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:15 AM
Post #7 of 67 (2379 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Eh, no big deal.

Anyhow: Yes. Don't really know who'd seriously vote No.
Well, maybe some BOD members or DZOs but that's about it.


(This post was edited by Andy9o8 on Mar 25, 2013, 8:16 AM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:21 AM
Post #8 of 67 (2376 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ya I think so too. I was hoping to get good participation in this poll and being it to the appropriate person in USPA and hell see if we can get that changed. Pipe dream probably but you can't do if you don't try first.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:00 AM
Post #9 of 67 (2360 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are users on this site that intentionally avoid SC at all costs.

This should be in General IMO - for better coverage.

From what I was told, I understood they held the secret vote after the named vote to see if the results would change based on the emotions of all involved with this tasty topic.
Laugh

To think all the millions of dollars to be made in instruction.....


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:01 AM
Post #10 of 67 (2355 views)
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Re: [normiss] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are users on this site that intentionally avoid SC at all costs.

God only knows why Angelic, but....

In reply to:
This should be in General IMO - for better coverage.

Agreed.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:06 AM
Post #11 of 67 (2351 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Which Mod do I contact to have it moved?














EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:31 AM
Post #18 of 67 (2273 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder who the no votes are Crazy

and if they are willing to publicly defend their decision?


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 25, 2013, 1:49 PM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #19 of 67 (2184 views)
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Re: [normiss] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
From what I was told, I understood they held the secret vote after the named vote to see if the results would change based on the emotions of all involved with this tasty topic.
Laugh

I was told it was one of the members that was voting "no" on the measure that requested the secret ballot and was doing so for well intended motives, i.e. it was not a lets see if we can pass it the second time around this way; however I feel on principle a secret ballot of any kind for any reason is BS.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:33 PM
Post #20 of 67 (2117 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wonder who the no votes are Crazy

and if they are willing to publicly defend their decision?

Now THAT is funny!!
LaughLaugh
LaughLaughLaugh


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:36 PM
Post #21 of 67 (2116 views)
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Re: [normiss] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
To think all the millions of dollars to be made in instruction.....

*lookin' at my bank account*

I guess I missed the boat on that one.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:18 PM
Post #22 of 67 (2068 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

For the most part, BOD votes are pretty routine stuff. Every once in a while there is an issue that is divisive or controversial. I think all votes should be done by name, that lets the people who elect their representatives know if the BOD member is representing or pretending.

The "secret ballot" should be a big red flag as to BOD members not wanting own up to their vote.

top


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:12 PM
Post #23 of 67 (1949 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. I have been in contact with Mike Mullins the appointed Chairman of the Constitution and By Laws Committee and he seems receptive to a change. I told him about this poll so I am hoping to get active participation in it.


Buried  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:45 AM
Post #24 of 67 (1822 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

This poll isn't valid. It allows non-uspa members to vote. It's better to contact your RD (regional director) on the topic.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:59 AM
Post #25 of 67 (1817 views)
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Re: [Buried] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh ya totally invalid.

I see a bunch of non USPA members swaying this one. Did you read the comment directly above yours? The appropriate USPA member has been contacted.

It's a joke anyone has even voted no. No one cares to defend that position publicly apparently. Although I am certainly open to debate.

Your comment is invalid.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 27, 2013, 5:17 AM
Post #26 of 67 (820 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For the most part, BOD votes are pretty routine stuff. Every once in a while there is an issue that is divisive or controversial. I think all votes should be done by name, that lets the people who elect their representatives know if the BOD member is representing or pretending.

The "secret ballot" should be a big red flag as to BOD members not wanting own up to their vote.

top

Thoughts on those that vote, and then have later have their vote changed to 'Abstain' for reasons of not wanting to be the only opposing vote on an otherwise unanimous issue?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 6:09 AM
Post #27 of 67 (809 views)
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Re: [DSE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Spot I realize your question was directed at topdocker, however I think he believes that votes should be by name and your post just furthers justification for the same.

I am curious if anyone would actually be willing to defend opposition. I have a feeling the no votes are just trolls or people that realize there is no legitimate counter-argument.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:12 AM
Post #28 of 67 (775 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Spot I realize your question was directed at topdocker, however I think he believes that votes should be by name and your post just furthers justification for the same.

I am curious if anyone would actually be willing to defend opposition. I have a feeling the no votes are just trolls or people that realize there is no legitimate counter-argument.

I can see the counter argument, that it is a pain in the ass to record votes on routine matters when they are unanimous or nearly so. Board members can request that a vote be by name (which is then voted on), and any Board member can make their vote by name at any time.

If you really want to know how your RD or a ND voted, go to a BOD meeting.

top


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:21 AM
Post #29 of 67 (765 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you really want to know how your RD or a ND voted, go to a BOD meeting

First of all not everyone can afford to go or have the time to go, how about instead that kind of lame ass attitude, USPA record the votes openly by name... or better yet, maybe instead of wasting a shit load of members money on a goddamn PR firm for fluffy feel good media stories.... how about we spend a small amount on setting a live webcam during the meeting and then any member who wishes to attend via the internet could do so. It would seem that a few would rather 1. waste our due monies on stupid shit and then hide behind closed doors on their votes. Then we have the issue of HQ not disclosing staff rates of pay to BOD or members. Everything should be in the open and for all to see!


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 27, 2013, 8:22 AM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #30 of 67 (755 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I can see the counter argument, that it is a pain in the ass to record votes on routine matters when they are unanimous or nearly so. Board members can request that a vote be by name (which is then voted on), and any Board member can make their vote by name at any time.

If you really want to know how your RD or a ND voted, go to a BOD meeting.

That is really the only counter argument I see, and I get it, but I feel there could be an easily accomplished middle ground. Routine unanimous votes could not be bothered to be recorded, but when there is disputed issues the members of the association should be able to see who is voting for what, and being told to attend is unrealistic for most of us. I can also see where a secret ballot my be useful in some instances, such as voting where nationals are to be held as was brought to my attention, however it is used in other ways that are just plain copouts apparently. I believe the system needs some change and the common member does not have a clear picture of what exactly is taking place. We should demand more, and I think those who are truly "representing" us should support such change.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #31 of 67 (763 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

 ...how about we spend a small amount on setting a live webcam during the meeting and then any member who wishes to attend via the internet could do so. It would seem that a few would rather 1. waste our due monies on stupid shit and then hide behind closed doors on their votes. Then we have the issue of HQ not disclosing staff rates of pay to BOD or members. Everything should be in the open and for all to see!


In reply to:

There you go with that whole logic thing again! Crazy

I'm curious, does anyone know of another 'non-profit' that won't disclose to the members where & how exactly THEIR money is being spent...other than a TV 'church' ?? Unimpressed


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 27, 2013, 8:36 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #32 of 67 (762 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you really want to know how your RD or a ND voted, go to a BOD meeting

First of all not everyone can afford to go or have the time to go, how about instead that kind of lame ass attitude, USPA record the votes openly by name... or better yet, maybe instead of wasting a shit load of members money on a goddamn PR firm for fluffy feel good media stories.... how about we spend a small amount on setting a live webcam during the meeting and then any member who wishes to attend via the internet could do so. It would seem that a few would rather 1. waste our due monies on stupid shit and then hide behind closed doors on their votes. Then we have the issue of HQ not disclosing staff rates of pay to BOD or members. Everything should be in the open and for all to see!

Geez, Strat, you might want to switch to decaf.... I am trying to remind members that the meetings are held in various places around the country for the specific purpose of getting members to attend meetings that are in their area.

The meetings are not behind closed doors, they are open (except when personnel or disciplinary actions are discussed). And BOD members go out of their way to discuss issues with interested parties before the meetings.

I never saw it as an issue knowing what individual staff members were paid.

Webcam has been discussed, but I think it was tabled due to cost and technical issues. (its not as simple as it sounds when you are using a host hotel).

Just trying to help....
top


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 27, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #33 of 67 (751 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Webcam has been discussed, but I think it was tabled due to cost and technical issues. (its not as simple as it sounds when you are using a host hotel).

Just trying to help....
top

It's actually very, very easy, and I was streaming to select people during the MSP and Daytona meetings. Jan Meyer wanted to do this, but was shut down for whatever reason.
That said, it also would generate a shit-ton of emails during the meeting. During this last meeting, there were many hysterical emails coming in due to facebook postings and pleadings. One can only imagine the traffic if there was a live webcam.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 9:05 AM
Post #34 of 67 (743 views)
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Re: [DSE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder why it was shut down exactly?

As far as emails go I don't know, because I have never even attended a meeting myself, but how would they be disruptive to the meeting? It's not like the board has to respond to emails during the meeting is it?

I would think a streaming of the meeting would be awesome and may be the easiest way to go.

Cost my ass. Spot you are knowledgeable about that type of thing. I wouldn't think there is much cost at all.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 9:09 AM
Post #35 of 67 (739 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

I never saw it as an issue knowing what individual staff members were paid.

In reply to:

I think it's a rather important issue Top...lets be honest here, although not as prevalent as in times past - the 'good ole boy' network is still somewhat ingrained in the organization.

We as the $upporting members not only have the right to know what someone is being paid as a staff member but also what exactly their qualifications are to hold that position.

Let's say 'for example' I hold a high office within the organization and my SO needs a job...

Should the general membership be made aware of that 'relationship' or is it none of their business...how about if said SO has no education or experience in the position, or is receiving a salary above any precious position ever held, or no basic performance parameter measurements are in place or being observed...is something like THAT no one's business?

Far be it for ME to imply this 'has' happened, or 'is' happening, just that it seems rather strange as a dues paying member $upporting a non profit organization I'm not in any way, shape or form 'allowed' to know if the people working FOR ME are qualified for the position or what I'm paying them - - so no safeguards are in place to insure it ISN'T/CAN'T happen...just sayin' Wink


As a 'stockholder' in a corporation I'd have to question the reason I'm not allowed 'by design' to know where, how & why the people I voted for, are spending the money I'm giving them.

It's only reasonable to ask if it's in 'their' best interest or 'mine'!

It's not that I don't 'trust' them, but friends are friends & business is business.

I was taught that in a busine$$ environment - don't trust anybody.

Tellng me you're not screwin' me is easy...SHOWING it is not!

Having run several small businesses I see a real problem there...or is it just me?? Angelic


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 27, 2013, 9:45 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 27, 2013, 9:48 AM
Post #36 of 67 (712 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wonder why it was shut down exactly?

As far as emails go I don't know, because I have never even attended a meeting myself, but how would they be disruptive to the meeting? It's not like the board has to respond to emails during the meeting is it?

I would think a streaming of the meeting would be awesome and may be the easiest way to go.

Cost my ass. Spot you are knowledgeable about that type of thing. I wouldn't think there is much cost at all.

There is the cost of putting a mike on everyone, making sure everyone can be seen and heard even audience members who address the BOD, and someone sitting there making sure the webcast works.

Also, the meetings are "open" to members and interested parties, but not "public." I think it will have to be put into the bylaws about webcasting meetings and a budget approved before it can be done.

For each committee, do we run a separate webcast, even for concurrent meetings? Or do we just rely on the committee report out?

I would love to see a webcast of a meeting, since I am one of those people that flew out to meetings even though I wasn't on the board. Eventually, I would like to see the BOD meet virtually rather than physically. Huge savings for everyone involved and they could happen more often.

top


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #37 of 67 (700 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no legitimate reason not to record votes by member every time. It's just not that cumbersome. If you make an exception for "routine" matters, then who gets to define what is and is not "routine"? What's routine and ministerial to me may be damned important to you. That aside, anything other than a single standard invites abuse, or even worse, the appearance of abuse. If a vote on routine stuff is truly unanimous, fine, say so. But if there are any nays or abstentions, those should be recorded by name. Would you tolerate your elected state or federal legislators doing it any other way?

With all due respect, I agree that it's lame to say that people can attend meetings. And though I'm all in favor of web-camming the meetings, that's not an adequate substitute for recording votes, either. Sorry, but some constituents have lives and just don't have the time or opportunity to watch the meetings; but that doesn't diminish their entitlement to the information.

This is really a no-brainer. Record the damn votes, all of them, and let's get on with it.


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 27, 2013, 10:48 AM
Post #38 of 67 (693 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We as the $upporting members not only have the right to know what someone is being paid as a staff member but also what exactly their qualifications are to hold that position.

Really? So if I own Ford stock I have the right to know what every guy on the plant floor gets paid in salary and benefits? It doesn't work that way. Nor do I have the right to review the qualifications and salary history (!) of every employee. Get real.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 27, 2013, 11:18 AM
Post #39 of 67 (691 views)
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Re: [DanG] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Nor do I have the right to review the qualifications and salary history (!) of every employee. Get real.

Actually...you do.

And in the exceptionally small microcosm of skydiving, we as members do have a right (and perhaps responsibility) to question hires if it appears that they are not cost-effective nor qualified for the job.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 11:30 AM
Post #40 of 67 (684 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
There is no legitimate reason not to record votes by member every time. It's just not that cumbersome. If you make an exception for "routine" matters, then who gets to define what is and is not "routine"? What's routine and ministerial to me may be damned important to you. That aside, anything other than a single standard invites abuse, or even worse, the appearance of abuse. If a vote on routine stuff is truly unanimous, fine, say so. But if there are any nays or abstentions, those should be recorded by name. Would you tolerate your elected state or federal legislators doing it any other way?

With all due respect, I agree that it's lame to say that people can attend meetings. And though I'm all in favor of web-camming the meetings, that's not an adequate substitute for recording votes, either. Sorry, but some constituents have lives and just don't have the time or opportunity to watch the meetings; but that doesn't diminish their entitlement to the information.

This is really a no-brainer. Record the damn votes, all of them, and let's get on with it.

+1


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 27, 2013, 11:40 AM
Post #41 of 67 (681 views)
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Re: [DSE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually...you do.

And in the exceptionally small microcosm of skydiving, we as members do have a right (and perhaps responsibility) to question hires if it appears that they are not cost-effective nor qualified for the job.

Actually, I don't. You're making stuff up.

Sure, you can question new hires all you want. That's completely different from having access to the personnel records of staff members.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 11:48 AM
Post #42 of 67 (679 views)
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Re: [DanG] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think a new thread should be started in regards to salaries and qualifications and such.

This thread is supposed to be about voting by name and secret ballots.


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 27, 2013, 11:49 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 12:07 PM
Post #43 of 67 (669 views)
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Re: [DanG] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
We as the $upporting members not only have the right to know what someone is being paid as a staff member but also what exactly their qualifications are to hold that position.

Really? So if I own Ford stock I have the right to know what every guy on the plant floor gets paid in salary and benefits? It doesn't work that way. Nor do I have the right to review the qualifications and salary history (!) of every employee. Get real.

http://www.reuters.com/...dUSBRE82T1AJ20120330

http://media.ford.com/...l_Wage_Structure.pdf

Took me 5 seconds to get a pretty good idea, and yes a stockholder can request such information, unless something drastic has changed in the past few years.


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 27, 2013, 12:48 PM
Post #44 of 67 (657 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Took me 5 seconds to get a pretty good idea, and yes a stockholder can request such information, unless something drastic has changed in the past few years.

Well, anyone can request anything.

There's a big difference between disclosing CEO pay (which I have no problem with), and disclosing the pay of regular employees. The "Entry-Level Wage Structure" you posted talks in general terms about what a typical employee makes. Try to show up at a Ford plant and ask to see the personell file of Joe Schmoe the riveter and see how far you get. That's what you're asking for, and it's patently ridiculous.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #45 of 67 (655 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or not.

Hijack away


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Mar 27, 2013, 1:22 PM
Post #46 of 67 (646 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

While we're off the subject.. is this about that wingsuit rating thing? If so, how did it end up? Do we have new rules coming?


topdocker  (D 12018)

Mar 27, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #47 of 67 (641 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
While we're off the subject.. is this about that wingsuit rating thing? If so, how did it end up? Do we have new rules coming?

Finishing the thread hijack...

The WSI rating failed to pass the BOD.

top


DanG  (D 22351)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:01 PM
Post #48 of 67 (631 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Or not.

Hijack away

Welcome to the internet.

BTW, I just voted NO in your silly poll.

Of course USPA directors should be required to vote by name. Why do you need a poll for that? The only people voting NO are doing it because the poll is dumb. dropzone.com is not USPA. Have you tried putting your comments on the USPA Facebook page, which is actually related to USPA?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:05 PM
Post #49 of 67 (630 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
The WSI rating failed to pass the BOD.

Correction. It failed TWICE.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:11 PM
Post #50 of 67 (620 views)
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Re: [DanG] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
Welcome to the internet.

BTW, I just voted NO in your silly poll.

Of course USPA directors should be required to vote by name. Why do you need a poll for that? The only people voting NO are doing it because the poll is dumb. dropzone.com is not USPA. Have you tried putting your comments on the USPA Facebook page, which is actually related to USPA?

Have you actually read the thread? See post #23. Of course I have contacted the USPA. Sorry, cant really put a poll on their website or Facebook page. Once again the Chairman of the C&B Committee has agreed to bring the discussion to the committee and I am hoping this poll would kind of show the support of my view. At least I am trying to do something about it and not just being a fuckstickTongue


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 27, 2013, 3:58 PM)


NSEMN8R  (D 26397)

Mar 27, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #51 of 67 (922 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In reply to:
The WSI rating failed to pass the BOD.

Correction. It failed TWICE.

So they voted by name once and then did it again anonymously?

Were the results different the second time?

Are the actual results posted somewhere?


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 27, 2013, 3:04 PM
Post #52 of 67 (913 views)
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Re: [NSEMN8R] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
So they voted by name once and then did it again anonymously?

From my understanding yes. I was not there and receives information second hand FWIW.

Quote:
Were the results different the second time?

It failed the second time as well. I do not know the exact number of yeas and nays for each time however.

Last I looked the votes were not published but that was the same day still.


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Mar 27, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #53 of 67 (907 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
So they voted by name once and then did it again anonymously?

From my understanding yes. I was not there and receives information second hand FWIW.

Quote:
Were the results different the second time?

It failed the second time as well. I do not know the exact number of yeas and nays for each time however.

Last I looked the votes were not published but that was the same day still.

http://www.uspa.org/...9/Default.aspx#32798

The quick post-meeting summary that's posted after every meeting. Detailed minutes (which I believe should include the vote tally) usually take longer to complete & make available. They're posted on this page (scroll down on the right): http://www.uspa.org/...bid/140/Default.aspx


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Mar 27, 2013, 3:14 PM)


Premier TomNoonan  (D 24313)
Moderator
Mar 28, 2013, 8:43 AM
Post #54 of 67 (837 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I was told it was one of the members that was voting "no" on the measure that requested the secret ballot and was doing so for well intended motives, i.e. it was not a lets see if we can pass it the second time around this way; however I feel on principle a secret ballot of any kind for any reason is BS

Here is my understanding of the secret ballot. It can serve atleast three purposes that I am aware of. I am not suggesting that I agree or disagree with any of them, but these are the three answers I got when I posed the question.

1) Lets say you have two camps on a close vote, yes and no sides. And through debate a no is swayed to a yes, or a yes is swayed to a no, an "open vote" in opposition of your "camp" can strain the relationship of that person with their camp. It basically allows them to vote their conscience, without damaging their work group relationship.
2) In any political venue, USPA or even Congress, people can hold grudges. If someone votes down anothers idea publicly, months or years later, the person that got voted down, may vote against that other person's proposal. Is it right? Of course not, but in the real world it can happen and while I'm not a political spinster, I do recognize that the goal of this volunteer group of BOD members is to do the right thing, so if the outcome is just, then if it takes an occassional secret ballot to reach that outcome, the greater good of the membership is still being served and while I would prefer all votes by names, I don't hold it against anyone for requesting a secret ballot.

3) Believe it or not, every so often a vote is so controversial that the person voting for or against something faces concerns/backlash in the real world that can affect them outside the realm of USPA. A harmless example would be someone suggesting a boogie to "honor" all those that voted against something they wanted or didnt want, kind of put the voters up on a public shame display, and while thats harmless, and somethiing we all sign on for as a potential ramification of this process, there is also the occassional person that wishes to do real harm in real life by calling the employer of the voter, signing them up for spam mail accounts, etc, etc, basicaly taking it out into the real world so to speak. And for anyone that doesn't remember the Dallas USPA meeting, we had an armed officer at the door for that very reason.

So......occassionally, a secret ballot can be a neccessary tool. And last thought on that, rarely is the person requesting the secret ballot the one that actually wants it. Remember that before going after the person.

Last thing on this before I run off to a tandem seminar. While we would love to be able to say to everyone "please vote by name" and I did request that in committee for the WS rating proposal (im only an advisor to the committee, so I didnt have a vote in committee), if we as a membership really want to see that happen, its up to us to contact our RDs and NDs and request that of them directly. So, before the next meeting, contact your RDs and the NDs you voted for, and ask them (nicely.....lol) to vote by name. In the interim, if your curious how they voted on the WS rating, or anything else, contact them directly and ask them how they voted.

As for me, I voted No on the Wingsuit rating proposal by name, so it will appear in the meeting minutes, and then when a secret ballot was requested for the Coach WS proposal, I again voted No publicly by name, by using a big piece of paper to write "Tom Noonan - NO" on it, and placing it in front of the gallery so that everyone that saw it, would see what I was voting as the votes were being picked up and tallied, and then myself and a few others, had our names recorded in the minutes with our respective votes.

It was an easy decision for me, I campaigned on the promise to vote by name on important issues and defend them publicly if asked to do so, and I kept that promise and will continue to keep it.

At some point after PIA, I will put "key to keyboard" and write up why I voted as I did, for now, it's suffice to say, given what was presented and how it was all presented, I believed I acted in the best interest of the membership at this time.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 28, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #55 of 67 (829 views)
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Re: [TomNoonan] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was an easy decision for me, I campaigned on the promise to vote by name on important issues and defend them publicly if asked to do so, and I kept that promise and will continue to keep it.

At some point after PIA, I will put "key to keyboard" and write up why I voted as I did, for now, it's suffice to say, given what was presented and how it was all presented, I believed I acted in the best interest of the membership at this time.


In reply to:

Whether I agree with your vote or not - I applaud your full disclosure and look forward to you publicly stating he reasoning.

I don't think it's too much to ask that ALL the elected representatives be as open.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 28, 2013, 9:04 AM
Post #56 of 67 (824 views)
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Re: [TomNoonan] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tom,

While I can certainly understand your reasoning for the support of having secret ballots, I do not agree with them in principle. It comes with the territory of being elected in my eyes. I guess I just love Ron Paul too much, and maybe I am delusional, but I believe ALL of our representatives should not be afraid to vote for ANY issue, and be confident enough to put their name to it. All votes should be recorded by name. It isn't about what some representatives are afraid of or feeling pressure from. It is about our rights we deserve from our elected officials and our association. We deserve to know period. We put them in office and have every right to know where they stand. We should not have to call or email them to find out how they voted either. It should be public knowledge (at least to association members). It is not an expensive or overly cumbersome thing to accomplish either. It is common sense.

I was against the Wingsuit proposal. It failed, but the Wingsuit proposal is not what this is about. It highlighted to me the way the USPA works as I never paid such close attention previously. I created this poll and contacted the USPA with my thoughts because I don't believe the current way business is conducted should be lawful within our organization.

I want to be able to review the voting records next election and make a more informed decision than I am currently able to.

The majority of members can't afford to travel to the meetings and see for themselves, and for me to contact every board member through various media is a bit ridiculous. It can be done better. I am sure there would be a lot of resistance to the change, but I am simply going on the record of where I stand, and it would seem the overwhelming majority of your constituents stand with me.


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 28, 2013, 12:06 PM
Post #57 of 67 (805 views)
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Re: [TomNoonan] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too?


SStewart  (D 10405)

Mar 29, 2013, 1:16 AM
Post #58 of 67 (742 views)
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Re: [TomNoonan] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Tom! Keep up the good work!

I am glad to see that cooler heads prevailed on the WS issue.
This good judgement on the newly seated board is very encouraging.

All votes should be recorded and made available to the membership in the minutes. We have a right to know how our elected representatives vote and where they stand on the issues.

Cool


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 29, 2013, 6:16 AM
Post #59 of 67 (724 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

+1


SStewart  (D 10405)

Mar 29, 2013, 10:14 PM
Post #60 of 67 (666 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a really radical idea.....

How about all votes are recorded and published in Parachutist magazine so the membership knows exactly where the BOD stands?

USPA represents us, this secret ballot nonsense must stop.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 30, 2013, 7:06 PM
Post #61 of 67 (630 views)
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Re: [SStewart] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

^ +1


Premier TomNoonan  (D 24313)
Moderator
Mar 31, 2013, 9:26 AM
Post #62 of 67 (594 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is about our rights we deserve from our elected officials and our association. We deserve to know period. We put them in office and have every right to know where they stand. We should not have to call or email them to find out how they voted either.

I agree that we deserve to know. But I will respectfully disagree that contacting one's elected officials directly (at this time) to ask them how they voted on important issues isn't too much of a burden in the digital world. One email to your RD and the NDs you vote for takes a matter of minutes to draft and send. If the info is that important to us, then its a small burden of our time to get the info we are looking for. Should we move to a recorded "by name" voting process? Absolutely. I would endorse such an option, but in the interim, until such a system is in place, we, the membership need to be proactive in our search for the information we seek, otherwise, we stay in idle, nothing moves forward, nothing changes.

So, I would encourage anyone that wants to see recording votes by name brought up at the next BOD meeting, please email your RDs and any NDs you voted for, and ask them to put it on the agenda. While sending that email, also ask them to provide information on how they voted on the items you are interested in learning about.

Quote:
and for me to contact every board member through various media is a bit ridiculous. It can be done better.

Respectfully, I agree that it can be done better, but that process requires time to investigate, decide and (possibly) implement. In the interim, contacting every board member via email is a task that takes minutes to accomplish and will provide quick timely answers to the questions of who voted for what. Its the best process in place at the moment, so I sincerely encourage you and anyone else interested, to send that email if the information is of genuine interest.


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 31, 2013, 3:46 PM
Post #63 of 67 (563 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too?

BUMP.


Premier TomNoonan  (D 24313)
Moderator
Mar 31, 2013, 4:43 PM
Post #64 of 67 (553 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi John

My apologies, I wasn't ignoring the question, I just wanted to take a moment and attempt to convey my thought in a manner that would make sense as I hoped to convey it.

With that said, with all due respect, (as I'm not the one that requested the secret ballot), I don't believe it appropriate for me to be publishing a name here on the forum. Not that the name is a big deal, it really isn't, but from a perspective of following proper channels, I think it more prudent for you to email your RD and ask them the question and then, after receiving an answer from your RD, if you feel it is in the membership's best interest to publish the name here, you are of course welcome to do so.


MakeItHappen

Mar 31, 2013, 5:39 PM
Post #65 of 67 (542 views)
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Re: [kallend] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Who requested the secret ballot - or is that secret too?

BUMP.

Ask the Secretary who it was. It should be recorded in the minutes too.

.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Apr 3, 2013, 4:35 PM
Post #66 of 67 (481 views)
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Re: [TomNoonan] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I will respectfully disagree that contacting one's elected officials directly (at this time) to ask them how they voted on important issues isn't too much of a burden in the digital world.

For one, I shouldn't have to. I should be able to look in the minutes and see for myself. Let alone the fact that obviously some members are afraid to say how they voted, otherwise there would be no "secret ballot" to begin with. So how would an email remedy this, and why exactly should i trust they voted the way they say they did when I ask them? The digital world is a two way street and the USPA can just as easily adjust. I think it is about time for a change Tom, so does most everyone else I have asked.


Premier TomNoonan  (D 24313)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2013, 4:58 AM
Post #67 of 67 (436 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Should the USPA Board be required to vote by name? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think it is about time for a change Tom, so does most everyone else I have asked.

As do I. As, I said above, I agree with you and if it came to a vote, I would vote Yes, by name, for such a measure.

Quote:
and why exactly should i trust they voted the way they say they did when I ask them?

Maybe I'm just niave, but I can't imagine anyone lying about how they voted to you. I could see perhaps if someone didn't want to share their vote for some reason, they might say "I choose not to share my vote with you", and if that was the response you got, you could choose not to vote for them next time around.

But I guess my real point is if any of us wants the info right now, as the current system is in place, we should be emailing our RDs, and the NDs we voted for and asking them directly. It takes a matter of minutes, about the same amout of time it would take to log onto uspa.org, navigate the site to the minutes and scroll through them to find the votes we're looking for. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't take that long to email a person or a group of people. I agree that we shouldn't have to do that, but as of today, before any new voting by name proposal gets put on an agenda, debated, voted on and then possibly implemented, it's the best viable option and not a very time consuming one if we want to know how our BOD members voted in this past election.
So.........again, I would suggest to anyone that is curious of how their BOD members voted, or would like them to vote by name at the Summer BOD meeting, please email them and ask them to share their votes, and to vote by name next time around.


(This post was edited by TomNoonan on Apr 4, 2013, 5:58 AM)



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