Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 

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wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Mar 30, 2013, 5:02 AM
Post #201 of 400 (4123 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I realize that it's not in everyone's nature to "give up" on a student below 2000, but you have to be conscious of the fact that you are far more likely to make the situation worse than you are to help in any way by chasing them near AAD firing altitudes. Fall back on your training and trust the equipment.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 30, 2013, 6:16 AM
Post #202 of 400 (4060 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert , not sure if it was a I or II. All compatible gear, in good condition with no size of compatibility issues.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 170ish Aerodyne main. Cypres Expert II. All compatible gear with no size or compatibility issues. His cutaway and reserve handles were pulled and cutaway handle was found close by.

Neither main was deployed, still in the containers and pilot chutes in their pouches.

There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement.

As far as we can tell all the gear worked exactly as it should. Please knock off the wild speculating, especially if you have no idea what you are talking about. This is a far simpler situation.

correction, the Instructor's main was a Pilot 117, not 170.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 30, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #203 of 400 (3959 views)
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Re: [wrightskyguy] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I realize that it's not in everyone's nature to "give up" on a student below 2000, but you have to be conscious of the fact that you are far more likely to make the situation worse than you are to help in any way by chasing them near AAD firing altitudes. Fall back on your training and trust the equipment.
I would say that chasing a student too low is a sign that the AFF-I did "give up".
Gave up on their training
Gave up on common sense
Gave up on the idea that we are all just human, not supermen
Gave up on the idea of saving his/her own life

Maybe because I spent 20 years teaching S/L before I got my AFF-I, where once the student leaves the airplane they HAVE to save themselves.
Maybe because I have run coach courses for so many years, where break-off procedures for a no-pull student are so important

I've thought about this alot, both before I got the rating and a lot more after this incident, and if I don't have a solid grip on a student at 2500', it means that shit has gone really bad. It means that the student is nowhere near stable, high fall rate. That means I've probably got 5 seconds to catch, stabilize, pull for the student, track and deploy by 1000'. Maybe less.
If I haven't been able to do this from 5500' down to 2500' it's time to stop.


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Mar 30, 2013, 10:17 AM
Post #204 of 400 (3860 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll say a few thing that are worth mention.

First of all, I would never chase a student below the hard deck at the risk of getting a pilot chute in my face off of an aad fire and ending the idea of saving us both right there. That is easily the fattest link in the chain of this incident.

The failure of getting reserves in time off the aad fires is troubling. Possibilities?

I know from rigging skyhooks that the bridle to p/c is a bit shorter than a standard bridle (distance to hardware) without a skyhook. I am curious if the added speed (larger burble) of a jumper chasing a jumper, a pause where the hardware breaks the seal thread and releases of the colin's lanyard, would cause a hesitation in a direct reserve deployment enough for this outcome. We have seen a perfect storm where the skyhook was a complication before.

Also, did the same rigger pack both of these rigs? If so, has someone cracked open another one of his skyhook packjobs to see if there are any deviations that could cause a hesitation?

I see these as possibilities pending what Cypres finds from the units, which in most cases come back as having operated where they should.

So, with that. Looking forward to hearing what a full investigation finds.

FYI, if anyone thinks I am trying to flame UPT, choke on it. Still the most innovative and diligent R&D mfgs. out there, but no one can anticipate the new ways skydivers reinvent how to kill themselves.

-Jon


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 30, 2013, 11:01 AM
Post #205 of 400 (3824 views)
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Re: [shorehambeach] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.

With respect to this thread, SM! is correct when he said:
"He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your "decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord. "

There's much more to it than just the topic of this thread. There are established 'best practice' procedures for handling mals. I am a strong proponent of those established procedures.

If you'd like, we can discuss those other procedures off line and leave this thread focused on the topic at hand. If you want to do that over the phone send me a PM with your number and a best-time-to call and I'll do that...it's better than writing back and forth.

Andy


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 30, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #206 of 400 (3739 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Think about the time...
At normal freefall speeds, 1000' takes about 5 seconds.
That means at 740', about 3.5 seconds left.
Reserves are required to open in 3 seconds.
as speed increases, time shortens.
Unstable/spinning increases speed.
The only S/L student I've put out and had a Cypres save;
10 second delay from about 5000'.
The student started spinning about 3 seconds after release, I counted to 20, no parachute or pilot chute, turned to the pilot (cessna) and waved for a go-round (maybe 3-4 seconds max), looked back down and saw a reserve canopy collapsing. I wasn't sure/didn't think it could have even fully inflated.
I went out the door head down thinking about what I was going to find, slowed down and deployed about 2500' and as I was spiraling down saw the canopy moving. He was picking it up.
He had a 3 -5 second canopy ride, never got the brakes unstowed, but was fine.
We sent in the Cypres and it had fired at the proper altitude.
Just my way of saying that even if evrything works right, theres not much time....


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Mar 30, 2013, 12:45 PM)


chuteshack

Mar 30, 2013, 1:32 PM
Post #207 of 400 (3691 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

i have always thought that 750 ft was way too low, anyone have any idea how airtek arrived at that particular activation altitude?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Mar 30, 2013, 2:03 PM
Post #208 of 400 (3654 views)
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Re: [chuteshack] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Check out the CYPRES2 manual. It states that increasing the activation altitude increases the risk of a 2 out. It also states that the lower it is increases the chance of reserve inflation failure.

If you want a higher activation altitude you can increase it.

http://www.cypresusa.com/..._English_01-2013.pdf

If this accident is good for anything it should be for people to at least understand how their gadgets work...what they will do and especially what they will not.


Ron

Mar 30, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #209 of 400 (3577 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Two things that REALLY need to be mentioned... Some have been talked about, but some have not yet been discussed.

1. When you find yourself low and need a canopy.... Your right hand will react faster than your left hand. I know this first hand. I was LOW (how I got there is another story of my personal stupidity). When I saw the horizon rush past my feet..... Yeah, that low. My mind screamed DEPLOY the reserve. By the time I had finished that thought, my main was deploying.

If it was not for that, I am not sure I would still be alive. Luckily, it was years ago and my main was a Raven II.

2. "First of all, I would never chase a student below the hard deck" Same thing.... You never PLAN to chase a student below the hard deck. Just like people never plan on riding a mal till they cut away at 100 feet and hit the ground. Just like people never plan on hooking so low that they hit the ground after their canopy.... But these things all happen.

It is the "I can fix this" that gets you.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 30, 2013, 6:15 PM
Post #210 of 400 (3435 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are a lot of good books on human decision making, particularly under very stressful conditions, that clearly demonstrate "just going for your reserve" isn't quite so easy when you're in that set of circumstances.

I think by the time we're in that situation we've already made so many bad decisions, or have gotten in so far over our heads, that you're rolling the dice against your muscle memory.

Ian


Performance Designs Factory Team

True, but I will still train myself to go silver under my decision altitude with nothing out and hope I execute it correctly because that is the right response PERIOD. Just because you might revert to your main does not mean you should. I refuse to say screw it because I will probably pull my main anyway. I will train how to do it right.

BTW I have seen someone go to silver under 1500


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 30, 2013, 6:36 PM
Post #211 of 400 (3420 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not disagreeing with training for that scenario, if anything i'm agreeing with that statement.

That said, the majority of the armchair quarterbacks rarely actually train themselves mentally for that and, therefore, are most likely to do exactly what they're criticizing another of doing.

To me, one of the biggest dangers is not understanding how and why someone made a fatal mistake. Then we have to recognize that we would do it too (most likely) in the same situation were we not to train rigorously for it.

Finally, the best way to avoid these these situations is to follow the rules that prevent you from getting in them in the first place. Once we start to place ourselves in HIGHLY stressful situations our ability to apply rational thought greatly diminishes. Regardless of how cool headed one may be there is a point where the stress levels are elevated so much that there is simply no more rational thought. It's best to avoid these as we really do roll the dice once we get to that place.

That's more my point.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 30, 2013, 6:39 PM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 30, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #212 of 400 (3393 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Ian I agree with that follow up post 110%. Every word.

I might be guilty of misunderstanding the prior post of yours that I responded to.

Chalk it up to a full day of chucking drogues and then maybe a little too many 12oz curls. Wink


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 30, 2013, 6:56 PM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 30, 2013, 7:06 PM
Post #213 of 400 (3370 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

All good - I wasn't particularly clear on the first post Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 30, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #214 of 400 (3332 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...the majority of the armchair quarterbacks rarely actually train themselves mentally for that and, therefore, are most likely to do exactly what they're criticizing another of doing.
...and then there's the bozos who have been there, done that and who, fortunately, lived to tell the story with experience to back it up.

Unsure


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 30, 2013, 7:42 PM
Post #215 of 400 (3322 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy,

There are, of course, people who've been there and done that.

There are, IMO, far more who think it can't happen to them or think they can't make the same mistakes. That, IMO, is folly.

Too often incidents are dismissed, or quarterbacked to death NOT to actually understand why the incident happened, or what lead to the incident but rather so that jumpers can justify to themselves "Why they'd never do that" so they can feel good about it and move on.

Nothing specific to this incident, just something I've been pondering for a few years. Even more so after reading "Deep Survival" - a book I highly recommend all skydivers read even though it has ZERO to do with skydiving.

Blues,
Ian

Edit: I realize I'm now cluttering the incident forum so we can take this to PM's or the S&T forum where it's more appropriate.


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 30, 2013, 7:44 PM)


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 30, 2013, 9:12 PM
Post #216 of 400 (3244 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

It is the "I can fix this" that gets you.

That's statement in my experience is the short answer to a large percentage fatalities in this sport. The other would be arrogance combined with a dose of ignorance. See "Dunning-Kruger Effect"

http://en.wikipedia.org/...2%80%93Kruger_effect

I to years ago found myself in freefall at or below 1500' (in the era of F111 mains and 2K main deployments). I can say that the motor skills had my main PC out before I had a chance to think about anything else. At the time, I second thought that jump a whole lot. My decision and conviction was to NEVER again find myself in that situation!

My DZ hasn't started the season yet due to a maintenance issue. We also haven't ran a Safety Day. "It is the "I can fix this" that gets you." I think will be the Safety Day theme this year.


(This post was edited by skydived19006 on Mar 30, 2013, 9:14 PM)


carbonezone  (D 23582)

Mar 31, 2013, 12:17 AM
Post #217 of 400 (3164 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are, of course, people who've been there and done that.

There are, IMO, far more who think it can't happen to them or think they can't make the same mistakes. That, IMO, is folly.

Too often incidents are dismissed, or quarterbacked to death NOT to actually understand why the incident happened, or what lead to the incident but rather so that jumpers can justify to themselves "Why they'd never do that" so they can feel good about it and move on.
AMEN.....it IS appropriate right here right now!!!!
Thanks Ian!!!
Tami C.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 31, 2013, 6:40 AM
Post #218 of 400 (2957 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The next bit of data I want to hear is the container(s) size and type and reserve canopy(s) size and type.


Bitswd

Mar 31, 2013, 7:59 AM
Post #219 of 400 (2858 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 117ish Aerodyne pilot main. Cypres Expert II.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 31, 2013, 8:20 AM
Post #220 of 400 (2832 views)
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Re: [carbonezone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There are, of course, people who've been there and done that.

There are, IMO, far more who think it can't happen to them or think they can't make the same mistakes. That, IMO, is folly.

Too often incidents are dismissed, or quarterbacked to death NOT to actually understand why the incident happened, or what lead to the incident but rather so that jumpers can justify to themselves "Why they'd never do that" so they can feel good about it and move on.
AMEN.....it IS appropriate right here right now!!!!
Thanks Ian!!!
Tami C.
And that is why I find a lot of the focus of this incident (both here and in the other threads) very troubling. Most people seem to be entirely focused on "why didn't these electro-mechanical devices save them?"
Rather than Ian's question of "how did both end up in this situation?"
Is this sport really so filled with people that believe an AAD guarantees them an inflated canopy no matter what?
Every first jump course I teach, and I'm sure EVERY first jump course tells the students in no uncertain terms that an AAD is only a machine, machines can fail, and that we are responsible for saving our own lives.
I really am starting to wonder how many people would leave the sport if they lose that total faith in their AAD and it's ability to save them.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Mar 31, 2013, 8:48 AM
Post #221 of 400 (2798 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And that is why I find a lot of the focus of this incident (both here and in the other threads) very troubling. Most people seem to be entirely focused on "why didn't these electro-mechanical devices save them?"
Rather than Ian's question of "how did both end up in this situation?"
Is this sport really so filled with people that believe an AAD guarantees them an inflated canopy no matter what?
Every first jump course I teach, and I'm sure EVERY first jump course tells the students in no uncertain terms that an AAD is only a machine, machines can fail, and that we are responsible for saving our own lives.
I really am starting to wonder how many people would leave the sport if they lose that total faith in their AAD and it's ability to save them.

Although I agree with you that ultimately an AAD is strictly a backup device and there is no guarantee it will work, I would also suggest that if there is a known failure mode for the AAD that it is also appropriate to try to mitigate or fix those failure modes. It is not a one-or-the-other. We've seen enough of these low AAD-fire and no inflated canopy incidents that it is certainly appropriate to ask questions and try to figure out if we can't make those better.

To be fair, it is unclear where the failure mode is, whether it is in the firing height or whether there is something more basic about the rig designs that are causing slow/no deployments.

Of course we are responsible for saving our own lives and if I go in without a canopy out because it didn't inflate after an AAD fire, well, that is on me. In the meantime I would still like to give myself the best chance to get a good canopy over my head if I am ever in a situation to need an AAD.

Mitigation of risk involves looking at all factors.


MakeItHappen

Mar 31, 2013, 10:06 AM
Post #222 of 400 (2707 views)
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Re: [] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The most positive and obvious PULL signal an instructor can give is to
PULL right in front of the student.

That sends a message that the student is in deep shit.

This hero making of the instructor chasing a student down low is BS.

The best thing an instructor can do, when down and dirty, is to pull in front of the student.

The End of AFF Level 1

You need to teach your students that
"If you see me pull, you need to pull immediately."

Call me selfish, but I am not losing my life to save yours on a no/low pull.

.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Mar 31, 2013, 10:18 AM
Post #223 of 400 (2686 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

^Still, I'm sure the Instructors intention was for them both to live, so he's still a hero in my books


jerm  (D 23994)

Mar 31, 2013, 10:38 AM
Post #224 of 400 (2651 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether or not he should be viewed a hero within the sport is certainly up for debate.

I'm certainly fine with the greater world being able to view one of us as a hero for once instead of laying blame anywhere they can. So long as we still try to learn how to do it better, let them have their hero.


BMFin

Mar 31, 2013, 10:39 AM
Post #225 of 400 (2647 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And that is why I find a lot of the focus of this incident (both here and in the other threads) very troubling. Most people seem to be entirely focused on "why didn't these electro-mechanical devices save them?"
Rather than Ian's question of "how did both end up in this situation?"

I agree that also the events leading to this outcome are relevant, and should be discussed.

However, I think the reason why most of us are focusing on the AAD issue, is that most of the rules and principles that prevent us from ending up in a situation like this are already known. Even if some AFF instructors have the tendency to chase students etc, we already know how we should act in this kind of situation by the book.

What is no known yet, and what is most distinctive in this incident is that so far it seems that two AADs failed to fire at the same time.

When people are focusing on this very rare detail of the incident, it doesnt mean that people would be placing their lives on AADs (as they shouldnt). I think most of us are simply keen to learn how was this kind of double ADD failure possible.


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