Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 

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Trafficdiver  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:50 PM
Post #176 of 400 (6257 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

Florida is pretty damn flat. I can't imagine them setting it in Tampa and having a big difference in altitude by the time they get to Z Hills.

Don't let the Hills in Z Hills fool you.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 26, 2013, 5:02 PM
Post #177 of 400 (6221 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All Vigil 2s with serial number 26176 and higher
(Version 2.5) will now shut down after 14 hours regardless of where they are.

Thanks. Am starting a Gear & Rigging post on this, because it isn't in their latest manual.


Edit:
Based on TK's description, the accident is an interesting side by side comparison of a big reserve (253) and a small reserve (120) failing to deploy in time. One can't just vaguely blame a "small container" on its own.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 26, 2013, 5:20 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 26, 2013, 5:08 PM
Post #178 of 400 (6209 views)
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Re: [jhh166] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what is the point of hiding said information?

No one was hiding anything in that post first of all, second of all, I'm willing to wait and see the reports come out and not just start wildly pointing a finger and bashing any one gear MFG. Now that TK has posted important info on the gear http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660, the theory that was being talked about by Mr. Sherman & myself, it would seem may not apply in this accident, as I stated
Quote:
Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident

Part of talking about these events in detail, speculation, theory etc... is all part of the education process and if it gets people thinking out how they do things or maybe change how they do things, it's a good thing, but interjecting the bad mouthing of a company who may or may not have had their product involved would be jumping the gun a tad as well as unfair slander and might even be considered libel, so their you go as to why I write the way I wrote that.

For the record, I still think John Sherman is correct in what his talking about, even if it had nothing to do with this accident.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 26, 2013, 5:09 PM)


Usarig  (D 11893)

Mar 26, 2013, 6:37 PM
Post #179 of 400 (6024 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Tk,

Did the Icon have a skyhook installed?


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 6:42 PM
Post #180 of 400 (6007 views)
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Re: [Usarig] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Did the Icon have a skyhook installed?

With no mains deployed, how is that relevant?


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:04 PM
Post #181 of 400 (5952 views)
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Re: [labrys] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Did the Icon have a skyhook installed?

With no mains deployed, how is that relevant?

A misrigged skyhook could cause a hesitation/delay/failure of the reserve deployment.


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:13 PM
Post #182 of 400 (5932 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A misrigged skyhook could cause a hesitation/delay/failure of the reserve deployment.

So could a misrigged RSL or reserve or CYPRES.


(This post was edited by labrys on Mar 26, 2013, 7:17 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:30 PM
Post #183 of 400 (5879 views)
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Re: [labrys] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
A misrigged skyhook could cause a hesitation/delay/failure of the reserve deployment.

So could a misrigged RSL or reserve or CYPRES.

Okay, please explain to me how a misrigged conventional Icon RSL could cause a reserve delay/hesitation/failure to deploy, with no main out, and that got past the rigging loft...

The Skyhook failure possibility would've effected it, wouldn't have been seen on a gear check (the spot is hidden under 5 flaps below the pin on an Icon) and could still hamper a CYPRES deployment.

All it would take is tacking the red lanyard to the skyhook with something other than ONE pass of red seal thread.


jhh166  (B License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #184 of 400 (5873 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
what is the point of hiding said information?

No one was hiding anything in that post first of all, second of all, I'm willing to wait and see the reports come out and not just start wildly pointing a finger and bashing any one gear MFG. Now that TK has posted important info on the gear http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660, the theory that was being talked about by Mr. Sherman & myself, it would seem may not apply in this accident, as I stated
Quote:
Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident

Part of talking about these events in detail, speculation, theory etc... is all part of the education process and if it gets people thinking out how they do things or maybe change how they do things, it's a good thing, but interjecting the bad mouthing of a company who may or may not have had their product involved would be jumping the gun a tad as well as unfair slander and might even be considered libel, so their you go as to why I write the way I wrote that.

For the record, I still think John Sherman is correct in what his talking about, even if it had nothing to do with this accident.
I disagree completely, user error and manufacture error carry equal amount of weight in the incident forum.


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:34 PM
Post #185 of 400 (5867 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Okay, please explain to me how a misrigged conventional Icon RSL could cause a reserve delay/hesitation/failure to deploy, with no main out, and that got past the rigging loft...

The Skyhook failure possibility would've effected it, wouldn't have been seen on a gear check (the spot is hidden under 5 flaps below the pin on an Icon) and could still hamper a CYPRES deployment.

Are you asking about problems that can be caught on a gear check, or problems that got past a rigging loft?


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:35 PM
Post #186 of 400 (5863 views)
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Re: [labrys] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Okay, please explain to me how a misrigged conventional Icon RSL could cause a reserve delay/hesitation/failure to deploy, with no main out, and that got past the rigging loft...

The Skyhook failure possibility would've effected it, wouldn't have been seen on a gear check (the spot is hidden under 5 flaps below the pin on an Icon) and could still hamper a CYPRES deployment.

Are you asking about problems that can be caught on a gear check, or problems that got past a rigging loft?

You said that the RSL or CYPRES could've impeded the deployment of a reserve with no main deployed.

How?


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:59 PM
Post #187 of 400 (5812 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

RSL... I think you're right there. I misspoke. CYPRES... Imagine a misrigged cutter with the closing loop wrapped around the cutter instead if passing through it. Releasing tension on the closing loop (pulling the reserve handle) could cause the cutter to trap the reserve in the container. Is that any different than a misrigged skyhook?


ixlr82  (C 33491)

Mar 26, 2013, 8:02 PM
Post #188 of 400 (5804 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a scenario, other than desperation or brainlock, that would explain why the instructors cutaway handle was pulled?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 26, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #189 of 400 (5787 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is full of speculation and rampant rumors. I am going to lock this thread for a few days to let TK continue to provide answers to some of the questions.

If there are no major updates for this thread from the official channels in a few days I will unlock this since the news articles seem to be publishing more information that could be discussed.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 28, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #190 of 400 (4459 views)
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Re: [devildog] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
General question that might relate and is for all the AFFIs out there: If you've had a student go under 2k and you ended up chasing them for whatever reason, were you aware that you were dropping under 2k and should have pulled (but were maybe thinking, "I can save this guy/gal"?)? Or were you so fixated on helping whoever that you didn't realize till much lower were you were because you were dealing with a problem? Just curious.

I'll answer that. Yes, everytime I've chased a student lower than I should have (below 2000 feet), I"ve known it because I never jump without a three-tone audible. I set my bottom "solid" tone at three grand and I know that when that solid tone has ended that I'm definitely down in the "thick air." So yes, I know exactly what I'm doing and yes, I know that I don't have any business chasing anyone below two grand. Adrenaline and the the overwhelming "need" to help a student/ fellow jumper override common sense, though, in the heat of the moment. At least for me that's been the case. It's not in my genetic code to simply "give up."

Chuck


medusa  (D 27526)

Mar 28, 2013, 11:35 AM
Post #191 of 400 (4274 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we have any certain information on what happen?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:19 PM
Post #192 of 400 (3886 views)
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Re: [ixlr82] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is there a scenario, other than desperation or brainlock, that would explain why the instructors cutaway handle was pulled?

Some people are taught, and some adhere to, the K.I.S.S. principle:
Regardless of what the problem is, cutaway and deploy the reserve.

It's wrong but all-to-common.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:54 PM
Post #193 of 400 (3831 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Some people are taught, and some adhere to, the K.I.S.S. principle:
Regardless of what the problem is, cutaway and deploy the reserve.

It's wrong but all-to-common.

Bravo Andy!

There is nothing simple about skydiving. There are infinite ways to kill yourself.

I heard someone say once. This is a thinking man's game. Too true. The problem lies in the fact that sometimes there is no time to think.

If you haven't properly trained yourself to respond correctly and immediately in any given scenario you could find yourself behind the 8 ball.


shorehambeach  (C License)

Mar 29, 2013, 11:47 AM
Post #194 of 400 (3178 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 29, 2013, 12:23 PM
Post #195 of 400 (3135 views)
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Re: [shorehambeach] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.

He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your "decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord.


livendive  (D 21415)

Mar 29, 2013, 1:42 PM
Post #196 of 400 (3039 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.

He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your "decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord.

Excellent advice, as difficult as it might be to execute. I know that my muscle memory is faster than my brain...at triple digit altitudes, my right hand throws a pilot chute faster than my brain can tell my left hand to pull reserve. Every other person I know who's found themself with a similarly shrinking window of opportunity has done the same thing, even those with several thousand jumps. When my brain processes "must have parachute RIGHT NOW", it kind of goes into auto-pilot. I've seen a bunch of AAD fires, but never once someone going straight to their reserve below 1500 ft.

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on Mar 29, 2013, 1:44 PM)


wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 29, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #197 of 400 (3022 views)
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Re: [livendive] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

And if you're ever in that situation, the last thing you want to do is overthink it, and say "open parachute" then say "oops -- no, open reserve."

Wendy P.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 29, 2013, 2:07 PM
Post #198 of 400 (2983 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a lot of good books on human decision making, particularly under very stressful conditions, that clearly demonstrate "just going for your reserve" isn't quite so easy when you're in that set of circumstances.

I think by the time we're in that situation we've already made so many bad decisions, or have gotten in so far over our heads, that you're rolling the dice against your muscle memory.

Ian


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 29, 2013, 4:16 PM
Post #199 of 400 (2826 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydiving Instructors used to get paid for pulling above 2000ft AGL....

They still do.


PalmSky

Mar 29, 2013, 4:32 PM
Post #200 of 400 (2805 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

As TK said in the interview I saw. Horrible, was the word used to describe this.

The one thing I'm real curious and SKM1 commented on it, about chasing a student low. Obviously saving someone is somewhat hard-wired with certain ppl.

What I'm curious about is the cypress data, is a burble created by two jumpers this low, as fast as they may have been which would skew the cypress data? What I mean is, obviously a much higher break-off is the norm but did it contribute to this incident in anyway? Just curious, did the act of trying to save the student doom them both? ....hopefully not, but again real curious about the cypress data.


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