Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 

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airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #151 of 400 (4572 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?


bfilak23  (C 38818)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #152 of 400 (4563 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To the accident.... I am going opine that it was an unstable student with the 'I' chasing him to the basement. The students AAD fired and the 'I' was caught up in the lines when his AAD also fired. Both people were now entangled in lines and neither canopy had a good chance at deployment. <---- Pure speculation, but the only solution that makes sense to me right now.

tkhayes posted a press release in post #127 that sheds some light onto the incident. Does not completely explain the event but eliminates some of the speculations floated, including this one.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #153 of 400 (4539 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?

Cypreses shut off after a period of time from the point they are turned on. I'm not sure exactly what that length of time is, but it's not more than 24 hours. I don't know about the other types...

There have been incidents of people turning on their cypres at home then going to the DZ 300-400 feet higher and jumping there. A lady died in CA in that scenario years ago.


DvK  (B License)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #154 of 400 (4536 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?

Cypreses shut off after a period of time from the point they are turned on. I'm not sure exactly what that length of time is, but it's not more than 24 hours. I don't know about the other types...

There have been incidents of people turning on their cypres at home then going to the DZ 300-400 feet higher and jumping there. A lady died in CA in that scenario years ago.

14 hours


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:55 AM
Post #155 of 400 (4497 views)
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Re: [DvK] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?

Cypreses shut off after a period of time from the point they are turned on. I'm not sure exactly what that length of time is, but it's not more than 24 hours. I don't know about the other types...

There have been incidents of people turning on their cypres at home then going to the DZ 300-400 feet higher and jumping there. A lady died in CA in that scenario years ago.

14 hours

Thanks, I knew it was somewhere around that time frame because I remember being warned to turn my cypres off and turn it back on before doing a night jump, especially if I'd been there all day, to keep it from shutting itself off during night ops.


MomDaBomb

Mar 26, 2013, 11:59 AM
Post #156 of 400 (4363 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Investigators: Skydiving instructor died a 'hero'

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/21798217/2013/03/26/investigators-skydiving-instructor-died-a-hero


chutem  (A 45827)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:17 PM
Post #157 of 400 (4326 views)
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Re: [MomDaBomb] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/...structor-died-a-hero


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:47 PM
Post #158 of 400 (4241 views)
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Re: [chutem] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably means little, but he's wearing an FXC in the picture shown in that story.


dgw  (C License)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:53 PM
Post #159 of 400 (4223 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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Probably means little, but he's wearing an FXC in the picture shown in that story.

And big clunky looking gloves.


base283  (D 15343)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:30 PM
Post #160 of 400 (4120 views)
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Re: [MomDaBomb] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Investigators: Skydiving instructor died a 'hero'

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/21798217/2013/03/26/investigators-skydiving-instructor-died-a-hero

I would potentially disagree. He quite possibly could be the cause. Not saying he did. But he didnt save the student.
I only like when the media tells the story i like.
They suck otherwise Wink
Take care,
space


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:59 PM
Post #161 of 400 (4061 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

There were two jumpers at the World Meet in Dubai last December who both had two outs due to AAD fires and landed in the Persian Gulf. Same team. Same jump. (not USA)

They both had the older version of the Vigil and had, evidently, traveled half way around the world with their AADs still on.

While they were making their first practice jump before the meet - Voila.

When asked if they did a gear check before donning their rigs they responded - 'Yes and thought it strange that their AADs were on. But then just assumed that the rigging loft turned on their AADs for them during the mandatory gear check at registration.'

Maybe they were thinking 'Wow - we heard Skydive Dubai was a great place but this is real service.'

Th DZ did fish them out of the gulf.

BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:06 PM
Post #162 of 400 (4039 views)
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Re: [dgw] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously he wasn't dressed as in the pic, so gloves were no issue. I think he acted courageously from the vid report, very sad. Wish they would have both made it, probably came close to getting the handle in time. May have been some other problem as well that made the student not pull. Never trust an AAD anyways.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:09 PM
Post #163 of 400 (4026 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Probably means little, but he's wearing an FXC in the picture shown in that story.

I'm thinking that could be a photo from back in Europe at a smaller DZ. C-182, older looking gear...
And the big letters "BFSK" on the helmet kind of suggests a visit to the Bergen Fallskjermklubb in Norway. Maybe a shot from the instructor's earlier days?
Whatever.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #164 of 400 (4002 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.
.

Unless everything changed, I thought A.A.D. wants you to turn off the gadget when you leave the DZ to prevent just that sort of thing from happening. Vigils are more easily fooled in that regard than Cypres' and stay on until returned to the DZ pressure elevation. (If you don't move them from the DZ, then yes they turn off at 14 hrs.)


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 26, 2013, 2:17 PM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 26, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #165 of 400 (3983 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

Can we break this out into its own thread but where is this documented at? The previous statements were that it would only shut down at 14 hours if the pressure never changed but if you drove home and the elevation at home was higher than at the DZ by a few hundred feet the unit would see that as climbing and would never shut off. If that is changed what Firmware level was that function changed at?


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Mar 26, 2013, 3:39 PM)


faulk04  (D 32457)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:40 PM
Post #166 of 400 (3924 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

Can we break this out into its own thread but where is this documented at?

page 33 of the manual-

says stand by- 14 hours


chutem  (A 45827)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #167 of 400 (3921 views)
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Re: Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't the AAD have had to have been turned on at an altitude lower than the landing area to have caused this incident? After reading that the DZ and accident site are at near sea level I'd have to wonder where the AADs were turned on at that was below sea level.

Edit- After checking it appears the lowest point in Iceland is -146M compared to sea level so it is possible.


(This post was edited by chutem on Mar 26, 2013, 2:52 PM)


PalmSky

Mar 26, 2013, 2:49 PM
Post #168 of 400 (3903 views)
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Re: [chutem] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post


Curious of the type AAD used by both jumpers.

Comes to mind the video where the jumper waits for the aad to fire 500' over the hanger. They must have been very close at 1000 feet, tragedy for everyone involved. My Condolences.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 3:12 PM
Post #169 of 400 (3844 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
reserve slider(s) up at the canopy?? or down at the links ?

Or did police activity re: the gear at the impact site, before expert inspection of the gear was permitted, prevent this (and similar data) from being determined with confidence? That question also needs to be answered.


jhh166  (B License)

Mar 26, 2013, 3:36 PM
Post #170 of 400 (3797 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you can't get the bag out of the container you can't get the canopy out of the bag.

Yep, I said the same thing and some are kind of quick discount that theory, yet I think you know WTH you are talking about and I agree. Without seeing the name brand, not that it matters.... but we have seen a hand deployed reserve on a POV vid not all that long ago and had that jumper not done a hand deploy on that stuck free bag he would dead, and there have been others who went in for the same reason... I believe that you would state that is the problem or problems you have already addressed here and other venues as well.

Now that you have said too, maybe less people will discount the theory that was put forth. It will interesting to learn more about the gear used on this accident. Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident.... however I still believe your are correct in regards to the issue you bring up.

With all due respect sir. We preach that the reason we want people to provide details is for the opportunity to save save lives by spreading information on the incident forum yet you try to hide the manufacture in a post. I believe the incident you are referring to was a Wings container....so voice it! Speculation or not, what is the point of hiding said information?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 26, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #171 of 400 (3741 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

Can we break this out into its own thread but where is this documented at? The previous statements were that it would only shut down at 14 hours if the pressure never changed but if you drove home and the elevation at home was higher than at the DZ by a few hundred feet the unit would see that as climbing and would never shut off. If that is changed what Firmware level was that function changed at?

All Vigil 2s with serial number 26176 and higher
(Version 2.5) will now shut down after 14 hours regardless of where they are. This change occurred around March 2012.

.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:12 PM
Post #172 of 400 (3696 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert , not sure if it was a I or II. All compatible gear, in good condition with no size of compatibility issues.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 170ish Aerodyne main. Cypres Expert II. All compatible gear with no size or compatibility issues. His cutaway and reserve handles were pulled and cutaway handle was found close by.

Neither main was deployed, still in the containers and pilot chutes in their pouches.

There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement.

As far as we can tell all the gear worked exactly as it should. Please knock off the wild speculating, especially if you have no idea what you are talking about. This is a far simpler situation.


Ron

Mar 26, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #173 of 400 (3681 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well never mind.....

Since TK said this: "There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement. "

My theory is out.

I find it hard to believe that two jumpers both have AAD fires and both did not get a good canopy before impact without some collision or entanglement being involved.... But it may simply be that.


(This post was edited by Ron on Mar 26, 2013, 4:25 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:19 PM
Post #174 of 400 (3673 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info!

Are the authorities allowing the AAD's to be sent to Airtec for a data dump?


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:25 PM
Post #175 of 400 (3657 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the update TK.

Any idea if they're going to let a skydiver view the video so we can get an accurate picture of the events?

Also, do you know if the students reserve ripcord was still in place?


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Mar 26, 2013, 4:26 PM)


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