Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 

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BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:19 AM
Post #102 of 400 (4594 views)
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Re: [JohnWeiss] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Was there a ASL difference from the spot where they went in to where the LZ is?

If there were 300Ft diff, then surely that could have contributed.

ZHills is pretty flat, at the most, maybe 30', but definitely not 300. Also, I think the intended landing area (and takeoff area) is likely a bit higher than where they found them.

Z-hills is as flat as a pancake. The entire Florida peninsula has less than 300-feet of elevation difference.


And Britton Hill is the highest point in all of Florida at 345 feet.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #103 of 400 (4579 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The LEOs generally do not have knowledge specific to skydiving. It seems a little odd to me though that they wouldn't have requested that a rigger inspect on site, I would expect that those officers would have some passing knowledge or procedure since skydiving is so common, it is Z Hills after all.

Otherwise, even Barney Fife were he working the scene in this day would have taken lots of pictures. Were it near a larger city with more resources there would have generally been a crime scene investigator with a camera.


FataMorgana  (C License)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #104 of 400 (4563 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The spokeswoman for the Pasco County sheriff's deputies http://(http://blogs.tampabay.com/...pasco-county/2110878) stated that "They were found very close to each other south of the airport off of Yonkers Road." If confirmed this statement does not seem to support the midair collision.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:33 AM
Post #105 of 400 (4531 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Law enforcement initially kept the recovery site sterile by not allowing anyone else into the area. After approval from further up their chain of command they did allow experts to the site who were able to examine the gear. Until all available information is evaluated nothing more can be said.

Law enforcement handled themselves in a very professional manner and are to be credited with responding well to a very tough situation.

jon


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #106 of 400 (4359 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In the first sceanrio above, the double AAD fire in close proxitmity, everything with regards to the gear is working correctly - the AADs both fire on time, and the reserves begin to deploy as-designed. The only 'malfucntion', is the position of the instructor too close to the student at AAD firing altitude. One mistake, that being human error.

I'm going with this hypothesis personally. I'll going to throw something out there and I want to see who thinks what I say makes sense and who thinks it's just not worth the pain in the butt for whatever reason:

-There is such a thing as a "Student" CYPRES for a reason. Same reason that there are multiple modes on a Vigil. I personally WANT my student to be wearing the student version because I WANT his unit to fire at a higher altitude than my PRO version/mode does. Why? Because I don't want this type of incident to happen to me.

Raise your hand if you have ever chased a student down below 2000 feet and/or until their AAD fired. <raises hand> If you haven't, then you have not been doing AFF long enough or you are just damn lucky. We know as instructors that we should never chase a student down below 2000 feet, but our instincts tell us to never give up. It's for that reason that NOBODY has ANY business performing AFF instructor duties without an AAD....No exceptions. If you have been chasing a student down till his unit fires then you have precious little time to get out of the way, get clear, and deploy for yourself. I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

Many, many dropzones stopped using Student CYPRES units and instead started putting PRO models in all of their rental/ student rigs because those rigs serve multiple purposes. They are used for AFF as well as rental units for visiting jumpers or licensed skydivers yet to buy their own gear. I get that from a business owners perspective, but it does not really make sense from a student/ instructor safety standpoint. Smarter business would be to have multi-mode units (like Vigil/ Vigil 2's) in those rigs so that they could be changed from student to PRO as needed by the jumper. I work at a dropzone that has PRO CYPRES units in all of the rental/ student rigs and this possible conclusion in this dual fatality really has me thinking. What do you guys think about it?

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, MMPCI, PRO, S&TA


Southern_Man  (C License)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:49 AM
Post #107 of 400 (4295 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

At terminal the student Cypres and experienced Cypres fire at the same altitude. If you don't want them firing at the same altitude you need to use the offset or you need to use Vigil. The Cypres will fire at a higher altitude in case of a partial malfunction.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:54 AM
Post #108 of 400 (4275 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Corrected for the student altitude splits:

Code:
We don't even know the brand/model of the AAD's.
FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:

Expert:
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1000' & velocity > 29mph & velocity < 78mph
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Tandem:
- 1900' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.cypres-usa.com/faltblau.htm

FYI, here are the Vigil I & II activation altitudes:

Code:
Pro:
- 840' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1040' & velocity > 45mph

Tandem:
- 2040' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.vigil.aero/manuals

Argus activation altitudes:

Code:
Standard:
- 820' & velocity > 78mph

Swoop:
- 820' & velocity > 78mph

Novice:
- 1000' & velocity > 45mph

Tandem:
- 2200' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.parachutemanuals.com/...startdown&id=329


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 25, 2013, 12:03 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:56 AM
Post #109 of 400 (4265 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

At terminal the student Cypres and experienced Cypres fire at the same altitude. If you don't want them firing at the same altitude you need to use the offset or you need to use Vigil. The Cypres will fire at a higher altitude in case of a partial malfunction.

The fact he used the term "PRO" instead of "Expert" makes me think he is confusing CYPRES and Vigil specs. See my previous post.


degeneration  (C 106811)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:58 AM
Post #110 of 400 (4257 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

At terminal the student Cypres and experienced Cypres fire at the same altitude. If you don't want them firing at the same altitude you need to use the offset or you need to use Vigil. The Cypres will fire at a higher altitude in case of a partial malfunction.

According to the cypres webapge, the student cypres2 will fire higher:

"The activation altitude is higher compared to the Expert CYPRES 2 and is set for 1000 feet /300 meters. This gives you adequate time to handle any emergency situation safely, such as a partially-opened main parachute."

http://www.cypres.cc/...temid=94&lang=en


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:05 PM
Post #111 of 400 (4219 views)
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Re: [degeneration] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

According to the cypres webapge, the student cypres2 will fire higher:

"The activation altitude is higher compared to the Expert CYPRES 2 and is set for 1000 feet /300 meters. This gives you adequate time to handle any emergency situation safely, such as a partially-opened main parachute."

http://www.cypres.cc/...temid=94&lang=en

See bold text and post #108.


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 25, 2013, 12:06 PM)


lawrocket  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:12 PM
Post #112 of 400 (4196 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. That increases my trust of what's being stated quite a bit.


Gary73  (D 21341)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #113 of 400 (4057 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... but I do know that on 2 instructor AFF jumps, the procedure is for the main side instructor to drop their grips and track away as soon as the PC is out of the pouch. ...

Not "as soon as the PC is out of the pouch".
As soon as the PC is released. Very important difference.

But again, we're getting away from the purpose of this thread. Let's all stop speculating and wait until we have actual facts to discuss, instead of using this tragedy as an excuse to get on our soapboxes.


(This post was edited by Gary73 on Mar 25, 2013, 12:55 PM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:54 PM
Post #114 of 400 (4040 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is all in the assumption that law enforcement doesn't meticulously record an accident scene where there are 2 people found dead, possibly wrongfull and/or criminal. Nobody has access to HD photo and video nowadays, only skydivers know how that stuff works. O... wait. Crazy

Another Observation - not directed at you:

Skydiving Instructors used to get paid for pulling above 2000ft AGL, giving their student a clear visual signal that if they were not already under a parachute it would be an excellent idea to do so, ASAP.

As the Elders used to say: "The further you go below 2000ft in your pursuits, the less likely it is that you will enjoy the fruits of your labor."


devildog  (C 40302)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:02 PM
Post #115 of 400 (4004 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

General question that might relate and is for all the AFFIs out there: If you've had a student go under 2k and you ended up chasing them for whatever reason, were you aware that you were dropping under 2k and should have pulled (but were maybe thinking, "I can save this guy/gal"?)? Or were you so fixated on helping whoever that you didn't realize till much lower were you were because you were dealing with a problem? Just curious.


danornan  (D 11308)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:30 PM
Post #116 of 400 (3913 views)
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Re: [devildog] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been ruled an accident.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2013/mar/25/skydivers-deaths-ruled-an-accident-by-pasco-medica-ar-670264/

As per the article, the reserves came out, but not in time to inflate. Still a lot of unanswered questions.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #117 of 400 (3871 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Chuck.
I have always respected you as a top-notch instructor.
Your comments support that.

I think your assessment is very accurate in this incident as well.


chrisward3  (B 6277)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:47 PM
Post #118 of 400 (3858 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

its also been reported that the student was wearing a camera

http://blogs.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/parachutes-didnt-deploy-for-two-who-died-near-skydive-city/2111001


(This post was edited by chrisward3 on Mar 25, 2013, 1:47 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Mar 25, 2013, 2:03 PM
Post #119 of 400 (3806 views)
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Re: [chrisward3] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
its also been reported that the student was wearing a camera

http://blogs.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/parachutes-didnt-deploy-for-two-who-died-near-skydive-city/2111001

Somewhat misreported...the camera was on the instructor.


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 25, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #120 of 400 (3667 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not a reply at you Phree, but once again we're missing the point of this incident. It's not about why the AAD's didn't save them. It's about how did they find themselves in a position to need the assistance of an AAD, whether it performed correctly or not. What chain of events occurred to get them to this point?

I disagree. You are partially correct that we need to know how they got into a position where their AADs came into play. But we also need to know why their AADs/rigs/reserves did not function properly. There's a lot to learn about how to deal with things before you get too low, but there's also a lot to learn about how to make sure your AAD functions correctly if e.g. you pass out during a jump for an unavoidable reason.


danornan  (D 11308)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:05 PM
Post #121 of 400 (3630 views)
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your AAD only cuts the reserve closing loop. Other things can come into play.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:30 PM
Post #122 of 400 (3555 views)
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

It appears that both AAD's operated within their firing parameters.


dudeman17  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:37 PM
Post #123 of 400 (3533 views)
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

More speculation:

One scenario that I have not seen mentioned is the possibility that, if the student was tumbling or on his back and at a high rate of speed, and if the instructor was in a very fast dive trying to catch him, that at such high freefall speeds the reserves may not have had adequate time to inflate even if the AAD's operated normally.

And I don't agree that speculation is a bad thing. One of the purposes of these discussions is to learn from others' mistakes so as not to repeat them. And we can learn from speculative scenarios, even if those scenarios turn out not to be accurate to a particular incident.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #124 of 400 (3350 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
FYI, here are the Vigil I & II activation altitudes:

Code:
Pro:
- 840' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1040' & velocity > 45mph

Tandem:
- 2040' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.vigil.aero/manuals

Just for clarification - regarding the Vigil firing parameters when in PRO mode.

When a jumper is falling back to earth the Vigil is designed to activate at 840 ft AGL (back flying - sit flying - free flying).

However when a jumper is falling face to earth, it places the sensor of the unit in a depresion zone which will cause it to read an up to 10mbar lower pressure or an altitude of 260 ft higher than the true altitude. This would cause the unit to activate 260 ft lower resulting in a 580 ft activation which of course is too low.

Therefore a compensation of + 260 ft above the nominal activation altitude was integrated into the PRO mode parameters.

In PRO mode a programmed activation altitude of 1100 ft has been set to guarantee
notwithstanding the position of the jumper, activation at a minimum altitude of 840ft above the ground.

So if a jumper were falling in anything other than a good, stable, face-to-earth position (which at that altitude is very possible and some would say likely) the unit will fire at 1100 ft AGL. If in deed the jumper is in a stable, face-to-earth position then the unit will activate at 840ft AGL.

All modes on the Vigil can be offset to higher altiudes. So if a jumper wants his/her AAD to activate higher than standard altiudes they may simply set up their Vigil to do so. It will then default to those new parameters everytime it is booted up.

.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. .


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Mar 25, 2013, 4:50 PM)




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