Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 

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Cutaway68  (D 29478)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:03 PM
Post #54 of 400 (4477 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To quote TK in the news article~

He said that both reserve chutes, a required piece of equipment, did deploy.

"But it was not in time to save their lives,"



I would tend to believe Mr. Sherman is probably pretty accurate in his assumption.

The investigation will hopefully be definitive, but at this point that's a fair speculation.

Another angle would be the simultaneous AAD fires in close proximity, with that leading to delayed (or non-existant) reserve canopy inflation.

In a student/instructor scenario, where the instructor might be chasing a student down low, I would have to think that an instructor would have to be 'very' close to catching the student to keep up the chase down low. If there was any real seperation approaching 1500 or 1000ft, it wouldn't be hard to imagine an instructor not 'giving up' hope in closing the gap. If you were 'right there', like with a hand inches from a dock, you might stay with it. In that case, both AADs firing at the same time could easily lead to a collision/wrap/entanglement of some kind.

For the culprit to be excessive freebag extraction force, it would have to be present on both rigs to result in a double fatality. Given the drastic differences between the way student rigs and instructor rigs are sometimes configured (with regard to canopy sizes as related to container sizes), having both rigs fail in the same way would seem unlikely.

In the first sceanrio above, the double AAD fire in close proxitmity, everything with regards to the gear is working correctly - the AADs both fire on time, and the reserves begin to deploy as-designed. The only 'malfucntion', is the position of the instructor too close to the student at AAD firing altitude. One mistake, that being human error.

To blame freebag extraction forces, two very different rigs would have to experience identical malfuncitons (delayed freebag extraction) at the same time, on the same jump. Seems less likely to me.

There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft, unless the AAD was set for other firing parameters (human error?).


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:08 PM
Post #55 of 400 (4462 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft

I believe a student Cypres is set to fire at 750ft, the same as an 'Expert' Cypres. The difference is in the speed at which it will fire, which is why we tell the students not to spiral under canopy below 1000ft (among other reasons). With the reduced firing speed, even a moderately loaded canopy can exceed that speed a cause an AAD fire.

This a guess based on some really 'fuzzy' memories, but a student Cypres might be set to fire at 750ft if descending above 38mph? Anyone?

I am unsure about other brands of AAD.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:12 PM
Post #56 of 400 (4450 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft, unless the AAD was set for other firing parameters (human error?).

We don't even know the brand/model of the AAD's.
FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:
Expert: 750'
Student: 1000'
Tandem: 1900'

Ref: http://www.cypres-usa.com/faltblau.htm


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 24, 2013, 9:13 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 24, 2013, 9:13 PM
Post #57 of 400 (4445 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

>the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft

Schools often use the same AAD's for students as are used for experienced jumpers.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:14 PM
Post #58 of 400 (4446 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm getting closer and closer to shutting down my boogie and leaving the sport because of the general attitude of jumpers now.

Do you remember the big USPA campaign a few years back to go "mainstream"? Well it worked and now you have the results to deal with.

As for this accident.... could it be a case of too tight of a container holding in the bag? Maybe it's one of those rigs where you have to hand deploy the reserve because there is not enough RPC drag to lift it off the pack tray, and or the tight corners factor in to produce this result?

Think about it... how much of a delay in anything happening that should happen fast when wizzing through 750 ft.... 1 second, 2 seconds 4 seconds??? It don't take much of a delay to make you dead.


Gary73  (D 21341)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:35 PM
Post #59 of 400 (4408 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

We're getting away from the actual incident here, but so as not to leave incorrect information out there, both Student and Expert CYPRESs fire at 750 feet at descent rates greater than 78 MPH. The difference with the Student mode is that it will fire as high as 1,000 feet at descent rates greater than 28 MPH but less than 78 MPH, so jumpers with those AADs should avoid radical maneuvers below 1,500 feet.

Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:40 PM
Post #60 of 400 (4395 views)
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Re: [Gary73] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We're getting away from the actual incident here, but so as not to leave incorrect information out there, both Student and Expert CYPRESs fire at 750 feet at descent rates greater than 78 MPH. The difference with the Student mode is that it will fire as high as 1,000 feet at descent rates greater than 28 MPH but less than 78 MPH, so jumpers with those AADs should avoid radical maneuvers below 1,500 feet.

Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.

Ahh...that was in the page I referenced, but I skimmed over it too quickly.


jerm  (D 23994)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:45 PM
Post #61 of 400 (4387 views)
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Re: [Gary73] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:56 PM
Post #62 of 400 (4361 views)
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Re: [jerm] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.

3 seconds.


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 24, 2013, 10:20 PM
Post #63 of 400 (4323 views)
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Re: [jerm] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.

Yes but realistically the 3 seconds or 300 foot can only start when the reserve pilot chute gets air into it. It is plausible for a pilot chute to get caught in your burble for 1 or 2 seconds before catching air - only then does the 3 seconds start.

That said a double fatality, is probably not due to these more obscure failure mechanisms. For example the current Cypres 'lockup' is not really a consideration, neither is a slow reserve deployment due to container design.

Common elements, could be terrain so that the AAD firing to deployment height was inadequate, no AAD's at all, entanglement between reserves, freefall collision, or on the unlikely possibility the same rigger who somehow packs oddly for slower openings. Those are the area's that I believe are more likely possible causes.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:12 PM
Post #64 of 400 (4263 views)
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Re: [jerm] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.

You are correct.
It's easier to measure 3 seconds than 300ft. Often the test is defined as good-to-go by only using the 3-second measurement.

To expound on Nigel's info, (I'll state the obvious here) there are no guarantees for time nor distance...too many variables involved between activation and inflation.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 24, 2013, 11:15 PM)


tristansdad  (C 39285)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:27 PM
Post #65 of 400 (4244 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

If I were with the group that traveled with them from Iceland I would definitely get my gear checked out before going up again. Maybe Im wrong but they all probably jumped at the same dz in Iceland and they all would get their gear serviced by the same rigger. Unless of course the student was using Skydive Citys gear which would in turn blow my theory out of the water. The chances of something like this happening have to be astronomical.


phreeloader  (Student)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:54 PM
Post #66 of 400 (4218 views)
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Re: [tristansdad] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I were with the group that traveled with them from Iceland I would definitely get my gear checked out before going up again. Maybe Im wrong but they all probably jumped at the same dz in Iceland and they all would get their gear serviced by the same rigger. Unless of course the student was using Skydive Citys gear which would in turn blow my theory out of the water. The chances of something like this happening have to be astronomical.

I agree, something like the reserve seal issue mentioned in the March issue of Parachutist (http://parachutistonline.com/...eye_out/reserve-seal) could very easily affect an entire team if they were being serviced by the same rigger


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:25 AM
Post #67 of 400 (4048 views)
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Re: [phreeloader] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree, something like the reserve seal issue mentioned in the March issue of Parachutist (http://parachutistonline.com/...eye_out/reserve-seal) could very easily affect an entire team if they were being serviced by the same rigger

While that's an easy check, it shouldn't effect a CYPRES from getting the container open, only an issue with the ripcord deployed.

That rigger is also nowhere near Iceland.Wink

From all of the news reports I've read, it appears the student was on gear that was brought from Iceland.


I wish we had better measures in place when an injury/fatality happens that would allow a rigger access to the equipment as it lays (not interfering with medical personnel) so they could at least asses the situation and make a preliminary finding, sort of like the fatality in Poland a while back. We may never fully know what happened here.Unsure


potatoman  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:37 AM
Post #68 of 400 (4039 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was there a ASL difference from the spot where they went in to where the LZ is?

If there were 300Ft diff, then surely that could have contributed.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:46 AM
Post #69 of 400 (4024 views)
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Re: [potatoman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Was there a ASL difference from the spot where they went in to where the LZ is?

If there were 300Ft diff, then surely that could have contributed.

ZHills is pretty flat, at the most, maybe 30', but definitely not 300. Also, I think the intended landing area (and takeoff area) is likely a bit higher than where they found them.


potatoman  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:20 AM
Post #70 of 400 (3963 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I know the discussion touched the fact that police etc confiscated the chutes and and.

Maybe from a DZO side, it would be good procedure to notify the authorities that when someone has gone missing, to not tamper with the gear, or at least have someone from the club take some photos before moving around evidence.

And do this everytime such an event occurs, such an event does not occur regularly, and the auth might forget procedure.

It is though highly irregular for both AAD not to function, or to function too low.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:22 AM
Post #71 of 400 (3964 views)
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Re: [danornan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

clicky!

http://www2.tbo.com/...lled-in-ze-ar-669399

MEL


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:42 AM
Post #72 of 400 (3898 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft,

So the new info is that a student Cypres fires at 1000ft, in comparison to the expert model that fires at 750ft.

With 250 of difference, it's literally less than 2 seconds between AAD fires, and still doesn't rule out an entaglement between two deploying reserves, or the student reserve deploying into the freefalling instructor.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 25, 2013, 5:44 AM
Post #73 of 400 (3755 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Student Cypres still fires at 750 feet at terminal speeds - same as Expert mode.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 25, 2013, 5:51 AM
Post #74 of 400 (3734 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a reply at you Phree, but once again we're missing the point of this incident. It's not about why the AAD's didn't save them. It's about how did they find themselves in a position to need the assistance of an AAD, whether it performed correctly or not. What chain of events occurred to get them to this point?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:09 AM
Post #75 of 400 (3674 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

    As long as all this speculation about gear issues is going on. How about the possibility that Argus AADs with Argus cutters slowed down the openings?

Of course the underlying cause is the failure of the jumpers to deploy on time. But if there is also an AAD failure I think that is very relevant, as would be any container induced delay. We don't even now for sure that there were two AADs here.


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