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Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 

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DontPanic  (D 30449)

Mar 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
Post #26 of 400 (6958 views)
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Re: [Heinz] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For an AAD malfunction we need an atmospheric pressure drop from 760 to 734 mmHg or something around it. If the landing spot is higher than the starting point, this difference can be even less. It is not an impossible situation IMO.

I remember when I was on the outskirts of Hurricane Katrina. My Neptune got confused and thought I was on a really slow climbout for a jump. We had ~70 mph winds at my house, and my Neptune still only read about 300 ft.

An atmospheric event that would significantly disrupt an AAD would be really large and really noticeable. I don't believe a simple dust-devil would be sufficient.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 24, 2013, 12:26 PM
Post #27 of 400 (6900 views)
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Re: [DontPanic] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www2.tbo.com/...led-in-ze-ar-669399/

No mains deployed. Both reserves at least activated. Both had AAD's.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Mar 24, 2013, 12:26 PM)


TomSpoon  (D 20967)

Mar 24, 2013, 1:02 PM
Post #28 of 400 (6761 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting the facts may be difficult. It seems once again a local authority has thwarted any meaningful investigation. From The Zephyrhills Free Press;

" Hayes expressed frustration that he and his staff were not allowed to help investigate the scene or even get close to where the fated pair came down.
He said their expertise would be extremely useful in helping deputies determine whether the chutes opened in the air or simply by impact, whether lines became entangled or if there was some kind of equipment failure.

Having to wait two or three days to be called into a room where evidence is now spread out on tables can make it nearly impossible to determine what the cause might have been, Hayes said."



(This post was edited by TomSpoon on Mar 24, 2013, 1:05 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 1:10 PM
Post #29 of 400 (6719 views)
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Re: [TomSpoon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Getting the facts may be difficult. It seems once again a local authority has thwarted any meaningful investigation. From The Zephyrhills Free Press;

" Hayes expressed frustration that he and his staff were not allowed to help investigate the scene or even get close to where the fated pair came down.
He said their expertise would be extremely useful in helping deputies determine whether the chutes opened in the air or simply by impact, whether lines became entangled or if there was some kind of equipment failure.

Having to wait two or three days to be called into a room where evidence is now spread out on tables can make it nearly impossible to determine what the cause might have been, Hayes said."

Ref: https://www.facebook.com/ZephyrhillsFreePress


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Mar 24, 2013, 2:04 PM
Post #30 of 400 (6522 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post


It sounds like TK has the same first impression of the possible scenario as some others.
Blue Skies to out Icelandic brothers.

Kevin K


robinheid  (D 5533)

Mar 24, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #31 of 400 (6505 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Getting the facts may be difficult. It seems once again a local authority has thwarted any meaningful investigation. From The Zephyrhills Free Press;

" Hayes expressed frustration that he and his staff were not allowed to help investigate the scene or even get close to where the fated pair came down.
He said their expertise would be extremely useful in helping deputies determine whether the chutes opened in the air or simply by impact, whether lines became entangled or if there was some kind of equipment failure.

Having to wait two or three days to be called into a room where evidence is now spread out on tables can make it nearly impossible to determine what the cause might have been, Hayes said."

Ref: https://www.facebook.com/ZephyrhillsFreePress

Decades ago, Al Frisby worked with local officials to create a procedure for investigating parachuting fatalities that did not interfere with the ability of jumpers to figure out what happened. That procedure was disseminated widely and served for many years to make investigating fatalities easier and more effective while at the same time allowing responding agencies to meet their statutory duties.

Unfortunately, "9/11 Fever" turned our law enforcement and first responders into "officials" who lord it over "civilians" whenever there is a fatality, serious injury or even some ill-defined emergency of some kind. This situation is not restricted just to parachuting fatalities, but our ability to investigate the causes behind the fatalities is generally more affected.

I would like to know if something other than 9/11 Fever has intruded on what at one time in most jurisdictions was a respectful and collegial atmosphere between first responders, and the DZ management -- and if USPA is thinking at all about how to return to "the good old days" when there was more understanding, coordination and respect between government agencies and parachute center managers and their designated rigger representatives.

Does anyone have more to add about this? This particular fatality event is an especially egregious example because it is so anomalous that seeing the gear could have been a huge help in figuring out what happened. Now we are probably left to wonder forever and have no answers to give to the families.

Frown
44


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 24, 2013, 2:11 PM
Post #32 of 400 (6498 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the instructor-chasing-the-student theory seems like a good guess based on the information we have. But if they both had AADs, why did neither one's reserve open high enough to land (quasi-)safely? I suppose if they fired at exactly the same time and they were right next to each other, they could have gotten entangled, but I'm not sure how likely that scenario is.


Ron

Mar 24, 2013, 2:32 PM
Post #33 of 400 (6430 views)
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Re: [Madison] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Props to Z-Hills for doing what other big DZs claim is 'near impossible' to do:keep track of their jumpers

Zhills has no 'system' to keep track of jumpers returning. It is simply that the people who were expecting these jumpers back didn't see them and started looking/asking about them.


kscarlett  (A License)

Mar 24, 2013, 3:04 PM
Post #34 of 400 (6299 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to disagree; I landed off at Z-hills, years ago, on two different occasions. On both occasions, manifest and TK were diligent about making sure everyone had checked back in and were accounted for after the jumps. I realize that no one else may have landed off in this case, but I believe they are more "heads-up" than perhaps they are being given credit for with this statement.


Ron

Mar 24, 2013, 3:25 PM
Post #35 of 400 (6222 views)
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Re: [kscarlett] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I would have to disagree; I landed off at Z-hills, years ago, on two different occasions. On both occasions, manifest and TK were diligent about making sure everyone had checked back in and were accounted for after the jumps. I realize that no one else may have landed off in this case, but I believe they are more "heads-up" than perhaps they are being given credit for with this statement.

Having lived there an worked there as recently as last mth. They have no 'system' they do a good job, but that is not a system


TomSpoon  (D 20967)

Mar 24, 2013, 3:51 PM
Post #36 of 400 (6119 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
.

Having lived there an worked there as recently as last mth. They have no 'system' they do a good job, but that is not a system

At Skydive City when it is known or suspected that jumpers landed off all jumpers on the load are asked to check in at manifest to ensure all are accounted for. Seems like a system to me.


love2flyhigh  (D 30338)

Mar 24, 2013, 4:42 PM
Post #37 of 400 (5989 views)
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Re: [TomSpoon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

seeing a jumper / jumpers land off under canopy and starting a search is one thing, trying to determine if someone is missing after going in with no canopy out is certainly another situation. Can't start a search if you have no idea they are missing. Friends noticed they were not there not that they could see two bodies falling out of sight...


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 24, 2013, 5:09 PM
Post #38 of 400 (5916 views)
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Re: [love2flyhigh] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In response to no one.

It is ridiculous to believe that any DZ can account for every jumper on every jump. I kills me the number of jumpers that start this crap of the DZ should account for everyone when they don't even bother accounting for the last group of people they jumped with. I'm getting closer and closer to shutting down my boogie and leaving the sport because of the general attitude of jumpers now.


btvr  (A 39209)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:01 PM
Post #39 of 400 (5760 views)
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Re: [TomSpoon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

+1
I was there last month and had to "check in" after landing because someone landed off. I was walking to the packing area and heard manifest telling people of that load to check in long before someone could be considered missing. Not sure if they suspected or saw the jumper but that was the only time I had to check in after landing.


BDashe  (A 60255)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:10 PM
Post #40 of 400 (5729 views)
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Re: [btvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

Re: the actual incident- anyone know what kind of AAD's and if the student had a student AAD with a higher altitude firing calibration?

Any names?


(This post was edited by BDashe on Mar 24, 2013, 6:10 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:25 PM
Post #41 of 400 (5656 views)
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Re: [BDashe] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump was at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 24, 2013, 6:58 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:53 PM
Post #42 of 400 (5568 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump at at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?

They were 'missed' quickly...they were 'found' after an extensive search.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 24, 2013, 7:09 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 24, 2013, 7:07 PM
Post #43 of 400 (5526 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump was at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?

What matters is when they started looking.




93626392

Mar 24, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #45 of 400 (5494 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is ridiculous to believe that any DZ can account for every jumper on every jump.

They do in the UK.






ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:04 PM
Post #48 of 400 (5335 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like since the LEO's took it on themselves to prevent anyone with a clue from seeing the accident scene, the best we can hope for is that the AAD mfgr can get a data dump of the indicated activation altitude, and the indicated impact altitude. Then we can get an idea if they were calibrated properly, and if the activation occurred at the expected altitude.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:11 PM
Post #49 of 400 (5313 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To quote TK in the news article~

He said that both reserve chutes, a required piece of equipment, did deploy.

"But it was not in time to save their lives,"



I would tend to believe Mr. Sherman is probably pretty accurate in his assumption.

The investigation will hopefully be definitive, but at this point that's a fair speculation.

Another angle would be the simultaneous AAD fires in close proximity, with that leading to delayed (or non-existant) reserve canopy inflation.

In a student/instructor scenario, where the instructor might be chasing a student down low, I would have to think that an instructor would have to be 'very' close to catching the student to keep up the chase down low. If there was any real seperation approaching 1500 or 1000ft, it wouldn't be hard to imagine an instructor not 'giving up' hope in closing the gap. If you were 'right there', like with a hand inches from a dock, you might stay with it. In that case, both AADs firing at the same time could easily lead to a collision/wrap/entanglement of some kind.

For the culprit to be excessive freebag extraction force, it would have to be present on both rigs to result in a double fatality. Given the drastic differences between the way student rigs and instructor rigs are sometimes configured (with regard to canopy sizes as related to container sizes), having both rigs fail in the same way would seem unlikely.

In the first sceanrio above, the double AAD fire in close proxitmity, everything with regards to the gear is working correctly - the AADs both fire on time, and the reserves begin to deploy as-designed. The only 'malfucntion', is the position of the instructor too close to the student at AAD firing altitude. One mistake, that being human error.

To blame freebag extraction forces, two very different rigs would have to experience identical malfuncitons (delayed freebag extraction) at the same time, on the same jump. Seems less likely to me.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Mar 24, 2013, 8:12 PM)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:19 PM
Post #50 of 400 (5290 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

[

To quote TK in the news article~

He said that both reserve chutes, a required piece of equipment, did deploy.

"But it was not in time to save their lives,"


I would tend to believe Mr. Sherman is probably pretty accurate in his assumption.

The investigation will hopefully be definitive, but at this point that's a fair speculation.
It's a news article. It could easily be a misquote or a partial quote. TK has not posted anything here. Mr. Sherman has a known agenda. Assumption and speculation are both keywords here, and you use them both. A dual fatality partly due to overly long extraction times is a possibility, but would seem unlikely. Then again there are quite a few things that seem unlikely about this event.

The investigation probably will be definitive. Mr Sherman is correct to be disgusted that his pet agenda item was not discussed as scheduled. He is a professional and someone I look up to. And the committee needs to look at this item. But this accident does not need to be prejudged.


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