Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13

 


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 23, 2013, 4:00 PM
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Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 Can't Post

http://www.baynews9.com/...ials_search_by_.html

Any info??

ETA: looks like they've found them. 2 fatalities. Pirate


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Mar 28, 2013, 5:28 AM)


ReluctantStool  (A 65507)

Mar 23, 2013, 5:42 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Blue Skies fellas Frownhttp://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2013/3/23/officials_search_by_.html


Iago  (D License)

Mar 23, 2013, 5:49 PM
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Re: [ReluctantStool] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.baynews9.com/...ials_search_by_.html


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 23, 2013, 5:52 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn... A student and instructor? Pure conjecture here, but I can't help but think of the Tom Piras incident. Unsure

ETA what we don't know is was this a tandem or an AFF jump?


(This post was edited by BillyVance on Mar 23, 2013, 5:59 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 23, 2013, 6:19 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was not a tandem


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 23, 2013, 6:20 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

More info: http://blogs.tampabay.com/...pasco-county/2110878


castrodavidd  (C 33299)

Mar 23, 2013, 8:16 PM
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a tandem. It was an instructor and a student from Iceland. Both had AAD's. no one saw them after leaving the airplane. No report about any canopies out, but there was a low scattered layer of clouds that obstructed the area were they were found.


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 23, 2013, 8:57 PM
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Re: [castrodavidd] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

From http://blogs.tampabay.com/...pasco-county/2110878: "Pasco County sheriff's deputies were uncertain Saturday whether their parachutes ever opened."

Any word on if either had deployed main or reserve? Where were their main PCs and their handles? Did either AAD activate? Statistically it's got to be damn near impossible for two AADs to not fire on the same jump.


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 23, 2013, 10:34 PM
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Statistically it's got to be damn near impossible for two AADs to not fire on the same jump.

In reply to:

Not that it has anything to do with this incident ~

But that's not at all true, IF some barometric anomaly occurred...there's a possibility nobody's AAD was working right.

Just like when everyone's AAD fires at the same time in an aircraft...




chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 24, 2013, 5:35 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Statistically it's got to be damn near impossible for two AADs to not fire on the same jump.

In reply to:

Not that it has anything to do with this incident ~

But that's not at all true, IF some barometric anomaly occurred...there's a possibility nobody's AAD was working right.

Just like when everyone's AAD fires at the same time in an aircraft...

I think that's a bit different. Inside the aircraft, a condition has been met in the past (presumably) replicating freefall speeds and the activation altitude and thus causing AAD's to fire (2 if I'm not mistaken - not "everyone's").

I don't know of any anomaly during freefall that would cause 2 AAD's to fail on the same jump. I suppose there could have been some sort of human error during a manual field elevation offset adjustment (on BOTH units), but ya gotta wonder why they would have been doing that.

More likely scenario: either the AAD's were turned off, or the student's AAD failed and the instructor wasn't wearing one.

Condolences to the jumpers' families and everyone at the Z.




theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 24, 2013, 5:50 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure how long it would take but machine a low pressure system moving in after takeoff.


devildog  (C 40302)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:32 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone know if at least the student's AAD was a cypress? Might it have been one of those that shut off?


RMURRAY

Mar 24, 2013, 7:22 AM
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Re: [devildog] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

no one on the ground saw anything?


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 24, 2013, 7:23 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't seen any details posted. Are we sure they both went in with nothing out?




Madison  (D 25271)

Mar 24, 2013, 7:32 AM
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Re: [RMURRAY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Authorities say the plane took off about 10:30 a.m. and 22 people jumped. When only 20 returned, authorities started searching for the missing men.

Props to Z-Hills for doing what other big DZs claim is 'near impossible' to do:keep track of their jumpers/make an effort to find missing ones asap, not days later.

Sad incident, BSBD


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 24, 2013, 7:33 AM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I haven't seen any details posted. Are we sure they both went in with nothing out?

Not at all. I was just speculating (yes, speculating) in a reply to a post about the possibility of a double AAD mal.

One thing is for sure. Something went horribly wrong given the result. I'm sure TK will post once they collect the facts.




CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:34 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I haven't seen any details posted. Are we sure they both went in with nothing out?

Not at all. I was just speculating (yes, speculating) in a reply to a post about the possibility of a double AAD mal.

One thing is for sure. Something went horribly wrong given the result. I'm sure TK will post once they collect the facts.


Fair enough, thought you might have a piece of info I hadn't seen


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:29 AM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

weren't they equipped with altimeters and / or an audible...at least for the Instructor/ who PULLS!!! and hopefully the student sees it.. and Then the student PULLS...right?

mention is made of some cloudbank.
Any ideas , of the altitude AGL of the top???
and of the bottom...?
any sense of whether they got IN to that layer.. when it would have been Most Unexpected.....Unsure

may all, find peace...


Heinz  (C License)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:37 AM
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

For an AAD malfunction we need an atmospheric pressure drop from 760 to 734 mmHg or something around it. If the landing spot is higher than the starting point, this difference can be even less. It is not an impossible situation IMO.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 24, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The fact that they were spotted from the air is a pretty good (not conclusive) indication that a canopy was as least out.


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Mar 24, 2013, 12:52 PM)


danornan  (D 11308)

Mar 24, 2013, 12:06 PM
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Local Tampa news...

http://www2.tbo.com/news/pasco-news/2013/mar/24/parachutes-did-not-open-for-skydivers-killed-in-ze-ar-669399/


DontPanic  (D 30449)

Mar 24, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Re: [Heinz] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For an AAD malfunction we need an atmospheric pressure drop from 760 to 734 mmHg or something around it. If the landing spot is higher than the starting point, this difference can be even less. It is not an impossible situation IMO.

I remember when I was on the outskirts of Hurricane Katrina. My Neptune got confused and thought I was on a really slow climbout for a jump. We had ~70 mph winds at my house, and my Neptune still only read about 300 ft.

An atmospheric event that would significantly disrupt an AAD would be really large and really noticeable. I don't believe a simple dust-devil would be sufficient.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Mar 24, 2013, 12:26 PM
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Re: [DontPanic] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www2.tbo.com/...led-in-ze-ar-669399/

No mains deployed. Both reserves at least activated. Both had AAD's.


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Mar 24, 2013, 12:26 PM)


TomSpoon  (D 20967)

Mar 24, 2013, 1:02 PM
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Re: [chuckakers] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Getting the facts may be difficult. It seems once again a local authority has thwarted any meaningful investigation. From The Zephyrhills Free Press;

" Hayes expressed frustration that he and his staff were not allowed to help investigate the scene or even get close to where the fated pair came down.
He said their expertise would be extremely useful in helping deputies determine whether the chutes opened in the air or simply by impact, whether lines became entangled or if there was some kind of equipment failure.

Having to wait two or three days to be called into a room where evidence is now spread out on tables can make it nearly impossible to determine what the cause might have been, Hayes said."



(This post was edited by TomSpoon on Mar 24, 2013, 1:05 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 1:10 PM
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In reply to:
Getting the facts may be difficult. It seems once again a local authority has thwarted any meaningful investigation. From The Zephyrhills Free Press;

" Hayes expressed frustration that he and his staff were not allowed to help investigate the scene or even get close to where the fated pair came down.
He said their expertise would be extremely useful in helping deputies determine whether the chutes opened in the air or simply by impact, whether lines became entangled or if there was some kind of equipment failure.

Having to wait two or three days to be called into a room where evidence is now spread out on tables can make it nearly impossible to determine what the cause might have been, Hayes said."

Ref: https://www.facebook.com/ZephyrhillsFreePress


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Mar 24, 2013, 2:04 PM
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post


It sounds like TK has the same first impression of the possible scenario as some others.
Blue Skies to out Icelandic brothers.

Kevin K


robinheid  (D 5533)

Mar 24, 2013, 2:10 PM
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Getting the facts may be difficult. It seems once again a local authority has thwarted any meaningful investigation. From The Zephyrhills Free Press;

" Hayes expressed frustration that he and his staff were not allowed to help investigate the scene or even get close to where the fated pair came down.
He said their expertise would be extremely useful in helping deputies determine whether the chutes opened in the air or simply by impact, whether lines became entangled or if there was some kind of equipment failure.

Having to wait two or three days to be called into a room where evidence is now spread out on tables can make it nearly impossible to determine what the cause might have been, Hayes said."

Ref: https://www.facebook.com/ZephyrhillsFreePress

Decades ago, Al Frisby worked with local officials to create a procedure for investigating parachuting fatalities that did not interfere with the ability of jumpers to figure out what happened. That procedure was disseminated widely and served for many years to make investigating fatalities easier and more effective while at the same time allowing responding agencies to meet their statutory duties.

Unfortunately, "9/11 Fever" turned our law enforcement and first responders into "officials" who lord it over "civilians" whenever there is a fatality, serious injury or even some ill-defined emergency of some kind. This situation is not restricted just to parachuting fatalities, but our ability to investigate the causes behind the fatalities is generally more affected.

I would like to know if something other than 9/11 Fever has intruded on what at one time in most jurisdictions was a respectful and collegial atmosphere between first responders, and the DZ management -- and if USPA is thinking at all about how to return to "the good old days" when there was more understanding, coordination and respect between government agencies and parachute center managers and their designated rigger representatives.

Does anyone have more to add about this? This particular fatality event is an especially egregious example because it is so anomalous that seeing the gear could have been a huge help in figuring out what happened. Now we are probably left to wonder forever and have no answers to give to the families.

Frown
44


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 24, 2013, 2:11 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, the instructor-chasing-the-student theory seems like a good guess based on the information we have. But if they both had AADs, why did neither one's reserve open high enough to land (quasi-)safely? I suppose if they fired at exactly the same time and they were right next to each other, they could have gotten entangled, but I'm not sure how likely that scenario is.


Ron

Mar 24, 2013, 2:32 PM
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Re: [Madison] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Props to Z-Hills for doing what other big DZs claim is 'near impossible' to do:keep track of their jumpers

Zhills has no 'system' to keep track of jumpers returning. It is simply that the people who were expecting these jumpers back didn't see them and started looking/asking about them.


kscarlett  (A License)

Mar 24, 2013, 3:04 PM
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to disagree; I landed off at Z-hills, years ago, on two different occasions. On both occasions, manifest and TK were diligent about making sure everyone had checked back in and were accounted for after the jumps. I realize that no one else may have landed off in this case, but I believe they are more "heads-up" than perhaps they are being given credit for with this statement.


Ron

Mar 24, 2013, 3:25 PM
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Quote:
I would have to disagree; I landed off at Z-hills, years ago, on two different occasions. On both occasions, manifest and TK were diligent about making sure everyone had checked back in and were accounted for after the jumps. I realize that no one else may have landed off in this case, but I believe they are more "heads-up" than perhaps they are being given credit for with this statement.

Having lived there an worked there as recently as last mth. They have no 'system' they do a good job, but that is not a system


TomSpoon  (D 20967)

Mar 24, 2013, 3:51 PM
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
.

Having lived there an worked there as recently as last mth. They have no 'system' they do a good job, but that is not a system

At Skydive City when it is known or suspected that jumpers landed off all jumpers on the load are asked to check in at manifest to ensure all are accounted for. Seems like a system to me.


love2flyhigh  (D 30338)

Mar 24, 2013, 4:42 PM
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Re: [TomSpoon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

seeing a jumper / jumpers land off under canopy and starting a search is one thing, trying to determine if someone is missing after going in with no canopy out is certainly another situation. Can't start a search if you have no idea they are missing. Friends noticed they were not there not that they could see two bodies falling out of sight...


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 24, 2013, 5:09 PM
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Re: [love2flyhigh] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In response to no one.

It is ridiculous to believe that any DZ can account for every jumper on every jump. I kills me the number of jumpers that start this crap of the DZ should account for everyone when they don't even bother accounting for the last group of people they jumped with. I'm getting closer and closer to shutting down my boogie and leaving the sport because of the general attitude of jumpers now.


btvr  (A 39209)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:01 PM
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Re: [TomSpoon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

+1
I was there last month and had to "check in" after landing because someone landed off. I was walking to the packing area and heard manifest telling people of that load to check in long before someone could be considered missing. Not sure if they suspected or saw the jumper but that was the only time I had to check in after landing.


BDashe  (A 60255)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:10 PM
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Re: [btvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

Re: the actual incident- anyone know what kind of AAD's and if the student had a student AAD with a higher altitude firing calibration?

Any names?


(This post was edited by BDashe on Mar 24, 2013, 6:10 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:25 PM
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Re: [BDashe] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump was at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 24, 2013, 6:58 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Mar 24, 2013, 6:53 PM
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump at at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?

They were 'missed' quickly...they were 'found' after an extensive search.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Mar 24, 2013, 7:09 PM)


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 24, 2013, 7:07 PM
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump was at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?

What matters is when they started looking.




93626392

Mar 24, 2013, 7:16 PM
Post #45 of 400 (5320 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is ridiculous to believe that any DZ can account for every jumper on every jump.

They do in the UK.






ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:04 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems like since the LEO's took it on themselves to prevent anyone with a clue from seeing the accident scene, the best we can hope for is that the AAD mfgr can get a data dump of the indicated activation altitude, and the indicated impact altitude. Then we can get an idea if they were calibrated properly, and if the activation occurred at the expected altitude.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:11 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To quote TK in the news article~

He said that both reserve chutes, a required piece of equipment, did deploy.

"But it was not in time to save their lives,"



I would tend to believe Mr. Sherman is probably pretty accurate in his assumption.

The investigation will hopefully be definitive, but at this point that's a fair speculation.

Another angle would be the simultaneous AAD fires in close proximity, with that leading to delayed (or non-existant) reserve canopy inflation.

In a student/instructor scenario, where the instructor might be chasing a student down low, I would have to think that an instructor would have to be 'very' close to catching the student to keep up the chase down low. If there was any real seperation approaching 1500 or 1000ft, it wouldn't be hard to imagine an instructor not 'giving up' hope in closing the gap. If you were 'right there', like with a hand inches from a dock, you might stay with it. In that case, both AADs firing at the same time could easily lead to a collision/wrap/entanglement of some kind.

For the culprit to be excessive freebag extraction force, it would have to be present on both rigs to result in a double fatality. Given the drastic differences between the way student rigs and instructor rigs are sometimes configured (with regard to canopy sizes as related to container sizes), having both rigs fail in the same way would seem unlikely.

In the first sceanrio above, the double AAD fire in close proxitmity, everything with regards to the gear is working correctly - the AADs both fire on time, and the reserves begin to deploy as-designed. The only 'malfucntion', is the position of the instructor too close to the student at AAD firing altitude. One mistake, that being human error.

To blame freebag extraction forces, two very different rigs would have to experience identical malfuncitons (delayed freebag extraction) at the same time, on the same jump. Seems less likely to me.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Mar 24, 2013, 8:12 PM)


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 24, 2013, 8:19 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

[

To quote TK in the news article~

He said that both reserve chutes, a required piece of equipment, did deploy.

"But it was not in time to save their lives,"


I would tend to believe Mr. Sherman is probably pretty accurate in his assumption.

The investigation will hopefully be definitive, but at this point that's a fair speculation.
It's a news article. It could easily be a misquote or a partial quote. TK has not posted anything here. Mr. Sherman has a known agenda. Assumption and speculation are both keywords here, and you use them both. A dual fatality partly due to overly long extraction times is a possibility, but would seem unlikely. Then again there are quite a few things that seem unlikely about this event.

The investigation probably will be definitive. Mr Sherman is correct to be disgusted that his pet agenda item was not discussed as scheduled. He is a professional and someone I look up to. And the committee needs to look at this item. But this accident does not need to be prejudged.








Cutaway68  (D 29478)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:03 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To quote TK in the news article~

He said that both reserve chutes, a required piece of equipment, did deploy.

"But it was not in time to save their lives,"



I would tend to believe Mr. Sherman is probably pretty accurate in his assumption.

The investigation will hopefully be definitive, but at this point that's a fair speculation.

Another angle would be the simultaneous AAD fires in close proximity, with that leading to delayed (or non-existant) reserve canopy inflation.

In a student/instructor scenario, where the instructor might be chasing a student down low, I would have to think that an instructor would have to be 'very' close to catching the student to keep up the chase down low. If there was any real seperation approaching 1500 or 1000ft, it wouldn't be hard to imagine an instructor not 'giving up' hope in closing the gap. If you were 'right there', like with a hand inches from a dock, you might stay with it. In that case, both AADs firing at the same time could easily lead to a collision/wrap/entanglement of some kind.

For the culprit to be excessive freebag extraction force, it would have to be present on both rigs to result in a double fatality. Given the drastic differences between the way student rigs and instructor rigs are sometimes configured (with regard to canopy sizes as related to container sizes), having both rigs fail in the same way would seem unlikely.

In the first sceanrio above, the double AAD fire in close proxitmity, everything with regards to the gear is working correctly - the AADs both fire on time, and the reserves begin to deploy as-designed. The only 'malfucntion', is the position of the instructor too close to the student at AAD firing altitude. One mistake, that being human error.

To blame freebag extraction forces, two very different rigs would have to experience identical malfuncitons (delayed freebag extraction) at the same time, on the same jump. Seems less likely to me.

There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft, unless the AAD was set for other firing parameters (human error?).


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft

I believe a student Cypres is set to fire at 750ft, the same as an 'Expert' Cypres. The difference is in the speed at which it will fire, which is why we tell the students not to spiral under canopy below 1000ft (among other reasons). With the reduced firing speed, even a moderately loaded canopy can exceed that speed a cause an AAD fire.

This a guess based on some really 'fuzzy' memories, but a student Cypres might be set to fire at 750ft if descending above 38mph? Anyone?

I am unsure about other brands of AAD.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:12 PM
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft, unless the AAD was set for other firing parameters (human error?).

We don't even know the brand/model of the AAD's.
FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:
Expert: 750'
Student: 1000'
Tandem: 1900'

Ref: http://www.cypres-usa.com/faltblau.htm


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 24, 2013, 9:13 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 24, 2013, 9:13 PM
Post #57 of 400 (4440 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

>the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft

Schools often use the same AAD's for students as are used for experienced jumpers.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:14 PM
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm getting closer and closer to shutting down my boogie and leaving the sport because of the general attitude of jumpers now.

Do you remember the big USPA campaign a few years back to go "mainstream"? Well it worked and now you have the results to deal with.

As for this accident.... could it be a case of too tight of a container holding in the bag? Maybe it's one of those rigs where you have to hand deploy the reserve because there is not enough RPC drag to lift it off the pack tray, and or the tight corners factor in to produce this result?

Think about it... how much of a delay in anything happening that should happen fast when wizzing through 750 ft.... 1 second, 2 seconds 4 seconds??? It don't take much of a delay to make you dead.


Gary73  (D 21341)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:35 PM
Post #59 of 400 (4403 views)
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We're getting away from the actual incident here, but so as not to leave incorrect information out there, both Student and Expert CYPRESs fire at 750 feet at descent rates greater than 78 MPH. The difference with the Student mode is that it will fire as high as 1,000 feet at descent rates greater than 28 MPH but less than 78 MPH, so jumpers with those AADs should avoid radical maneuvers below 1,500 feet.

Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:40 PM
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In reply to:
We're getting away from the actual incident here, but so as not to leave incorrect information out there, both Student and Expert CYPRESs fire at 750 feet at descent rates greater than 78 MPH. The difference with the Student mode is that it will fire as high as 1,000 feet at descent rates greater than 28 MPH but less than 78 MPH, so jumpers with those AADs should avoid radical maneuvers below 1,500 feet.

Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.

Ahh...that was in the page I referenced, but I skimmed over it too quickly.


jerm  (D 23994)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:45 PM
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In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 24, 2013, 9:56 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.

3 seconds.


nigel99  (D 1)

Mar 24, 2013, 10:20 PM
Post #63 of 400 (4318 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.

Yes but realistically the 3 seconds or 300 foot can only start when the reserve pilot chute gets air into it. It is plausible for a pilot chute to get caught in your burble for 1 or 2 seconds before catching air - only then does the 3 seconds start.

That said a double fatality, is probably not due to these more obscure failure mechanisms. For example the current Cypres 'lockup' is not really a consideration, neither is a slow reserve deployment due to container design.

Common elements, could be terrain so that the AAD firing to deployment height was inadequate, no AAD's at all, entanglement between reserves, freefall collision, or on the unlikely possibility the same rigger who somehow packs oddly for slower openings. Those are the area's that I believe are more likely possible causes.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:12 PM
Post #64 of 400 (4258 views)
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Re: [jerm] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, all reserves, large or small, should deploy within three seconds of activation.


IIRC (though i can't find a reference atm) it's 3 seconds or 300ft. please correct me.

You are correct.
It's easier to measure 3 seconds than 300ft. Often the test is defined as good-to-go by only using the 3-second measurement.

To expound on Nigel's info, (I'll state the obvious here) there are no guarantees for time nor distance...too many variables involved between activation and inflation.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Mar 24, 2013, 11:15 PM)


tristansdad  (C 39285)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:27 PM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

If I were with the group that traveled with them from Iceland I would definitely get my gear checked out before going up again. Maybe I’m wrong but they all probably jumped at the same dz in Iceland and they all would get their gear serviced by the same rigger. Unless of course the student was using Skydive City’s gear which would in turn blow my theory out of the water. The chances of something like this happening have to be astronomical.


phreeloader  (Student)

Mar 24, 2013, 11:54 PM
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In reply to:
If I were with the group that traveled with them from Iceland I would definitely get my gear checked out before going up again. Maybe I’m wrong but they all probably jumped at the same dz in Iceland and they all would get their gear serviced by the same rigger. Unless of course the student was using Skydive City’s gear which would in turn blow my theory out of the water. The chances of something like this happening have to be astronomical.

I agree, something like the reserve seal issue mentioned in the March issue of Parachutist (http://parachutistonline.com/...eye_out/reserve-seal) could very easily affect an entire team if they were being serviced by the same rigger


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:25 AM
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In reply to:
I agree, something like the reserve seal issue mentioned in the March issue of Parachutist (http://parachutistonline.com/...eye_out/reserve-seal) could very easily affect an entire team if they were being serviced by the same rigger

While that's an easy check, it shouldn't effect a CYPRES from getting the container open, only an issue with the ripcord deployed.

That rigger is also nowhere near Iceland.Wink

From all of the news reports I've read, it appears the student was on gear that was brought from Iceland.


I wish we had better measures in place when an injury/fatality happens that would allow a rigger access to the equipment as it lays (not interfering with medical personnel) so they could at least asses the situation and make a preliminary finding, sort of like the fatality in Poland a while back. We may never fully know what happened here.Unsure


potatoman  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:37 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was there a ASL difference from the spot where they went in to where the LZ is?

If there were 300Ft diff, then surely that could have contributed.


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:46 AM
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In reply to:
Was there a ASL difference from the spot where they went in to where the LZ is?

If there were 300Ft diff, then surely that could have contributed.

ZHills is pretty flat, at the most, maybe 30', but definitely not 300. Also, I think the intended landing area (and takeoff area) is likely a bit higher than where they found them.


potatoman  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:20 AM
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I know the discussion touched the fact that police etc confiscated the chutes and and.

Maybe from a DZO side, it would be good procedure to notify the authorities that when someone has gone missing, to not tamper with the gear, or at least have someone from the club take some photos before moving around evidence.

And do this everytime such an event occurs, such an event does not occur regularly, and the auth might forget procedure.

It is though highly irregular for both AAD not to function, or to function too low.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:22 AM
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Re: [danornan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

clicky!

http://www2.tbo.com/...lled-in-ze-ar-669399

MEL


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:42 AM
Post #72 of 400 (3893 views)
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Re: [Cutaway68] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft,

So the new info is that a student Cypres fires at 1000ft, in comparison to the expert model that fires at 750ft.

With 250 of difference, it's literally less than 2 seconds between AAD fires, and still doesn't rule out an entaglement between two deploying reserves, or the student reserve deploying into the freefalling instructor.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 25, 2013, 5:44 AM
Post #73 of 400 (3750 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Student Cypres still fires at 750 feet at terminal speeds - same as Expert mode.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 25, 2013, 5:51 AM
Post #74 of 400 (3729 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not a reply at you Phree, but once again we're missing the point of this incident. It's not about why the AAD's didn't save them. It's about how did they find themselves in a position to need the assistance of an AAD, whether it performed correctly or not. What chain of events occurred to get them to this point?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:09 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

    As long as all this speculation about gear issues is going on. How about the possibility that Argus AADs with Argus cutters slowed down the openings?

Of course the underlying cause is the failure of the jumpers to deploy on time. But if there is also an AAD failure I think that is very relevant, as would be any container induced delay. We don't even now for sure that there were two AADs here.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:18 AM
Post #76 of 400 (4084 views)
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There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft, unless the AAD was set for other firing parameters (human error?).
There's no regulation requiring students in the U.S. to use AAD's with higher activation altitudes than experienced jumpers. The AAD's (presumably) involved may have had the same activation altitude.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:28 AM
Post #77 of 400 (4071 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How about the possibility that Argus AADs with Argus cutters slowed down the openings?

Again, when you start to consider the idea of gear or AAD malfunctions, you have to factor in that those are rare events, and would have had to happen twice on the same skydive.

In the student/instructor scenario, it's not unusual for an instructor to be very close or docked on a deploying student, or ever performing the deployment themseves. It also wouldn't be unusual for an instructor to be chasing a student having problems on the bottom end of a jump.

On a 'fun' jump, deployments are generally a solo event. and would be performed away from other jumpers. Even given a loss of altitude awareness, jumpers would tend to turn away from other jumpers before deploying if there was no time for a track. It would be very unusual for two fun jumpers to be in such close quarters under 1000ft., but these were not fun jumpers.

As to the AAD comment, I read a news article in which TK stated that they both had AADs and that both cutters had fired.


Ron

Mar 25, 2013, 6:48 AM
Post #78 of 400 (4022 views)
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Quote:
At Skydive City when it is known or suspected that jumpers landed off all jumpers on the load are asked to check in at manifest to ensure all are accounted for. Seems like a system to me.

Tell that to Janine who was laying in a field for several hours with a broken leg.

And these two were missing for TWO hours.

'when it is known or suspected' is NOT a process to account for each jumper.

Zhills is very good about going after people that land off. Zhills is very good about looking for someone when they KNOW they are missing. But the fact is that is NOT a process to account for each jumper.


Ron

Mar 25, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #79 of 400 (3994 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump at at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?

They were 'missed' quickly...they were 'found' after an extensive search.

'Hayes said the men did not return for two hours, prompting worries among the group.'

I do not consider two hours quick.

Don't get me wrong... I don't think there was much of anything zhills could have done better. I think it is the responsibility of the jumpers to keep track of the people in your group. Zhills does a fantastic job, but what they are doing is NOT a system to track each jumper.


gregpso  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:03 AM
Post #80 of 400 (3966 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
There is a flaw in the logic of both AAD's firing at the same time. Unless I'm mistaken (my girlfriend will tell you that happens often), the students AAD should have fired somewhere around 1200ft, unless the AAD was set for other firing parameters (human error?).

We don't even know the brand/model of the AAD's.
FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:
Expert: 750'
Student: 1000'
Tandem: 1900'

Ref: http://www.cypres-usa.com/faltblau.htm

How about raising activation heights to 1500 feet for students and 1000 feet for expert .. add extra margin of safety. why 750 feet ? hang on I think mr Booth has already raised this !!


ChrisD  (No License)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:20 AM
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

No one has yet to mention the Vigil and the possibility of a recent change in weather, as if a front was in the area,...

Personally there are so many troubling issues with this one, I'm going to loose sleep, I just know I am,...

My most heartfelt condolances, this totally sucks...

I can't help but think of the number of times I have been involved in conversations with students and the topic of disscussion has been the cost difference between cat a's and cat c/d's, this is really buggin me at the moment, and I can tell ya right now, even understanding that it's way to early to speculate, absent all the facts, I'm going to be a real prick the next time some student tells me that they want to progress because of money issues....

(And I am in no way making a wag regarding this issue and this student, who I am guessing, as so many students do, who put their complete faith in the system...)

Robert has hit the nail on the head here when he points out there is so much we don't know, other than this one is going to be spoken about for a long time, including the fact that by all apperances the instructor may have been focused upon saving the student at a very high personal cost...


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 25, 2013, 7:38 AM
Post #82 of 400 (3868 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
when you start to consider the idea of gear or AAD malfunctions, you have to factor in that those are rare events, and would have had to happen twice on the same skydive.

I have to agree that it's unlikely. But I figure that if it's alright for a senior manufacturer with a dog in the fight and a bone to pick to start blaming and pointing fingers based on nothing more than the scant information we have, it must be ok for rabble like me.

I think I deserve the same chance to damage my credibility as well.


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Mar 25, 2013, 7:56 AM)


askir  (D 18172)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:00 AM
Post #83 of 400 (3795 views)
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Well at this point we know nothing, we speculate everything and pointing fingers is the act of the day.
What we do know is that Law enforcement, though well intention-ed, seems to almost always mess up the scene and reduce the ability of "qualified" people to investigate what happened.
Getting gear all cut up and bundled up in a tub weeks serves little purpose in getting to the bottom of any incident.
RIP brothers...
will pray for your families.


StreetScooby

Mar 25, 2013, 8:12 AM
Post #84 of 400 (3759 views)
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Just a thought here, but what if the instructor was close to a dock, a little high, and over the student's back? How much, if any, would that impact the pressure reading?


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:41 AM
Post #85 of 400 (3664 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Corrected for the student altitude splits:

Code:
We don't even know the brand/model of the AAD's.
FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:

Expert:
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1000' & velocity > 29mph & velocity < 78mph
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Tandem:
- 1900' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.cypres-usa.com/faltblau.htm


piisfish

Mar 25, 2013, 8:43 AM
Post #86 of 400 (3660 views)
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In reply to:
Just a thought here, but what if the instructor was close to a dock, a little high, and over the student's back? How much, if any, would that impact the pressure reading?
I had a speculation close to that one... would 2 people in a close formation form some turbulence which would fool/bother the AAD's, and wouldn't the same turbulence also perturb a clean reserve deployment ?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Mar 25, 2013, 8:53 AM
Post #87 of 400 (3611 views)
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>would 2 people in a close formation form some turbulence which would fool/bother
>the AAD's, and wouldn't the same turbulence also perturb a clean reserve deployment?

In my experience it will not fool an AAD (my experience is with a digital altimeter but they use the same sensing technique) but being close - specifically being docked - can cause significant spring loaded pilot chute hesitations.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:57 AM
Post #88 of 400 (3599 views)
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In reply to:
I'm not sure how long it would take but machine a low pressure system moving in after takeoff.
I'm not a meterologist but I follow the weather a lot. Even a 10 point change in one hour, a difference of 100' in pressure altitude, is considered a very rapid rate. Three points on a 20 minute plane flight might make a 30' difference, maybe.


(This post was edited by JohnMitchell on Mar 25, 2013, 8:58 AM)


vpjr  (D 14158)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:00 AM
Post #89 of 400 (3586 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The burble hop scenario of Instructor / student would cause a lower pressure and higher indicated alt for the jumper above. Remember the chest mount altimeters and horny Gorillas at the bottom of the skydive. Always exciting! Shows how old I am.


(This post was edited by vpjr on Mar 25, 2013, 9:01 AM)


FataMorgana  (C License)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:01 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Expanding on the hypothesis that close proximity of jumpers could have potentially contributed to the reserve deployment issues. I am wondering what is actually known about the impact of bigger burble, created by two (or more) jumpers falling together, on the AAD triggered reserve deployments issues (especially reserve PC hesitations). Essentially, the question would be whether today’s riggs equipped in AADs are designed to safely deploy reserve in the close proximity to each other. There is a ton of real life experience and testing-based knowledge on this forum that could address this question….


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:08 AM
Post #91 of 400 (3555 views)
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In reply to:
but being close - specifically being docked - can cause significant spring loaded pilot chute hesitations.
This seems plausible to me. You see a lot of hesitations in AFF. It's why the main side leaves after the student pitches the pilot chute/pulls the ripcord. It takes very little pc hesitation to kill you below 750'.

Certain reserve pilot chutes perform better than others.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
I am wondering what is actually known about the impact of bigger burble, created by two (or more) jumpers falling together, on the AAD triggered reserve deployments issues (especially reserve PC hesitations).

I don't know about the effects on an AAD, but I do know that on 2 instructor AFF jumps, the procedure is for the main side instructor to drop their grips and track away as soon as the PC is out of the pouch. The reserve side instructor hangs on until the deploying canopy pulls the harness grip from their hand. The idea is that the 3 way formation creates too much bruble for the student in the middle.

With regards to spring loaded pilot chutes, they have a proven track record of hesitations. Even on a solo jumper, if they have a clean, symetircal body position, the burble created is enough to slow the PC launch. Add another jumper docked on one side, and I can only imagine that it would be worse.

In this case, however, there would be two jumpers and two reserve PC launches in close proximity. Burble issues could be one thing, PC/freebag entanglements could be another, and canopy/jumper entanglements could be yet another.


lawrocket  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:34 AM
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I’m a bit confused here about the reliability of whatever is being put out. On the one hand, we have statements released saying that TK said that the reserves didn’t open in time. On the other hand, we’re hearing that nobody viewed anything except for LEOs, who are not trained and don’t know what happened.

My concern is that I don’t even have any information that is stated as reliable that these jumpers weren’t deceased before the AADs were deployed. I can certainly see a scenario where there was a midair that killed them and LEOs see people mashed up and assume the reserves didn’t open on time.

I think there’s a whole lotta talk in a vacuum. There are assumptions that the reserves didn’t open but I haven’t seen any report that any riggers – or even experienced skydivers – have viewed the gear. Is there anything definitive to show that these two had malfunctions of AAD and canopy opening? Or just the statement that the reserves didn’t open in time by someone who says he hasn’t seen the gear?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:46 AM
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Quote:
On the one hand, we have statements released saying that TK said that the reserves didn’t open in time. On the other hand, we’re hearing that nobody viewed anything except for LEOs,

I'm pretty sure the situation was that no jumpers were permitted on-site at the accident. The gear was removed from the jumper and the scene, and then jumpers (presumably TK) were allowed to inspect it at the police station later on, after it had been moved around and laid out in the police station.

The idea was that any clues you could get from the configuration of the gear 'as it lies' at the scene were lost to the LEOs moving things around. However, fired cutters, cut loops, and reserves out of freebags could lead to an accurate report of both AADs firing and canopies being partially deployed.


lawrocket  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:57 AM
Post #95 of 400 (3382 views)
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In reply to:
However, fired cutters, cut loops, and reserves out of freebags could lead to an accurate report of both AADs firing and canopies being partially deployed.

I'm not questioning that the AADs fired. I'm wondering whether either of the jumpers was conscious when it happened. Is there anything that says they were or were not? Both being knocked out can certainly explain why both AADs fired.

Do we know that the reserves did not open completely?






piisfish

Mar 25, 2013, 10:05 AM
Post #98 of 400 (3338 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm not questioning that the AADs fired. I'm wondering whether either of the jumpers was conscious when it happened. Is there anything that says they were or were not? Both being knocked out can certainly explain why both AADs fired. ?
one o fthe news reports said that 1 of rthe jumpers was jumping with a camera and that it would be used by the police. Presumably the instructor and not the 8 jump student.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:07 AM
Post #99 of 400 (3324 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I’m a bit confused here about the reliability of whatever is being put out.

Here's something else to add to that for you here then... It is being reported now that, apparently - the instructor on this jump was wearing, and did have on / has been recovered - Video.

Just to also now "put that out there". FWIW.






BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:19 AM
Post #102 of 400 (4456 views)
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Re: [JohnWeiss] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Was there a ASL difference from the spot where they went in to where the LZ is?

If there were 300Ft diff, then surely that could have contributed.

ZHills is pretty flat, at the most, maybe 30', but definitely not 300. Also, I think the intended landing area (and takeoff area) is likely a bit higher than where they found them.

Z-hills is as flat as a pancake. The entire Florida peninsula has less than 300-feet of elevation difference.


And Britton Hill is the highest point in all of Florida at 345 feet.


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #103 of 400 (4441 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The LEOs generally do not have knowledge specific to skydiving. It seems a little odd to me though that they wouldn't have requested that a rigger inspect on site, I would expect that those officers would have some passing knowledge or procedure since skydiving is so common, it is Z Hills after all.

Otherwise, even Barney Fife were he working the scene in this day would have taken lots of pictures. Were it near a larger city with more resources there would have generally been a crime scene investigator with a camera.


FataMorgana  (C License)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #104 of 400 (4425 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The spokeswoman for the Pasco County sheriff's deputies http://(http://blogs.tampabay.com/...pasco-county/2110878) stated that "They were found very close to each other south of the airport off of Yonkers Road." If confirmed this statement does not seem to support the midair collision.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Mar 25, 2013, 10:33 AM
Post #105 of 400 (4393 views)
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Re: [lawrocket] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Law enforcement initially kept the recovery site sterile by not allowing anyone else into the area. After approval from further up their chain of command they did allow experts to the site who were able to examine the gear. Until all available information is evaluated nothing more can be said.

Law enforcement handled themselves in a very professional manner and are to be credited with responding well to a very tough situation.

jon


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #106 of 400 (4221 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In the first sceanrio above, the double AAD fire in close proxitmity, everything with regards to the gear is working correctly - the AADs both fire on time, and the reserves begin to deploy as-designed. The only 'malfucntion', is the position of the instructor too close to the student at AAD firing altitude. One mistake, that being human error.

I'm going with this hypothesis personally. I'll going to throw something out there and I want to see who thinks what I say makes sense and who thinks it's just not worth the pain in the butt for whatever reason:

-There is such a thing as a "Student" CYPRES for a reason. Same reason that there are multiple modes on a Vigil. I personally WANT my student to be wearing the student version because I WANT his unit to fire at a higher altitude than my PRO version/mode does. Why? Because I don't want this type of incident to happen to me.

Raise your hand if you have ever chased a student down below 2000 feet and/or until their AAD fired. <raises hand> If you haven't, then you have not been doing AFF long enough or you are just damn lucky. We know as instructors that we should never chase a student down below 2000 feet, but our instincts tell us to never give up. It's for that reason that NOBODY has ANY business performing AFF instructor duties without an AAD....No exceptions. If you have been chasing a student down till his unit fires then you have precious little time to get out of the way, get clear, and deploy for yourself. I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

Many, many dropzones stopped using Student CYPRES units and instead started putting PRO models in all of their rental/ student rigs because those rigs serve multiple purposes. They are used for AFF as well as rental units for visiting jumpers or licensed skydivers yet to buy their own gear. I get that from a business owners perspective, but it does not really make sense from a student/ instructor safety standpoint. Smarter business would be to have multi-mode units (like Vigil/ Vigil 2's) in those rigs so that they could be changed from student to PRO as needed by the jumper. I work at a dropzone that has PRO CYPRES units in all of the rental/ student rigs and this possible conclusion in this dual fatality really has me thinking. What do you guys think about it?

Chuck Blue, D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, MMPCI, PRO, S&TA


Southern_Man  (C License)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:49 AM
Post #107 of 400 (4157 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

At terminal the student Cypres and experienced Cypres fire at the same altitude. If you don't want them firing at the same altitude you need to use the offset or you need to use Vigil. The Cypres will fire at a higher altitude in case of a partial malfunction.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:54 AM
Post #108 of 400 (4137 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Corrected for the student altitude splits:

Code:
We don't even know the brand/model of the AAD's.
FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:

Expert:
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1000' & velocity > 29mph & velocity < 78mph
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Tandem:
- 1900' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.cypres-usa.com/faltblau.htm

FYI, here are the Vigil I & II activation altitudes:

Code:
Pro:
- 840' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1040' & velocity > 45mph

Tandem:
- 2040' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.vigil.aero/manuals

Argus activation altitudes:

Code:
Standard:
- 820' & velocity > 78mph

Swoop:
- 820' & velocity > 78mph

Novice:
- 1000' & velocity > 45mph

Tandem:
- 2200' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.parachutemanuals.com/...startdown&id=329


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 25, 2013, 12:03 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:56 AM
Post #109 of 400 (4127 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

At terminal the student Cypres and experienced Cypres fire at the same altitude. If you don't want them firing at the same altitude you need to use the offset or you need to use Vigil. The Cypres will fire at a higher altitude in case of a partial malfunction.

The fact he used the term "PRO" instead of "Expert" makes me think he is confusing CYPRES and Vigil specs. See my previous post.


degeneration  (C 106811)

Mar 25, 2013, 11:58 AM
Post #110 of 400 (4119 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I, for one, do not ever want to be in a position where my unit is firing at the same altitude as my "runaway" student, though, so consider the following:

At terminal the student Cypres and experienced Cypres fire at the same altitude. If you don't want them firing at the same altitude you need to use the offset or you need to use Vigil. The Cypres will fire at a higher altitude in case of a partial malfunction.

According to the cypres webapge, the student cypres2 will fire higher:

"The activation altitude is higher compared to the Expert CYPRES 2 and is set for 1000 feet /300 meters. This gives you adequate time to handle any emergency situation safely, such as a partially-opened main parachute."

http://www.cypres.cc/...temid=94&lang=en


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:05 PM
Post #111 of 400 (4081 views)
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Re: [degeneration] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

According to the cypres webapge, the student cypres2 will fire higher:

"The activation altitude is higher compared to the Expert CYPRES 2 and is set for 1000 feet /300 meters. This gives you adequate time to handle any emergency situation safely, such as a partially-opened main parachute."

http://www.cypres.cc/...temid=94&lang=en

See bold text and post #108.


(This post was edited by ryoder on Mar 25, 2013, 12:06 PM)


lawrocket  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:12 PM
Post #112 of 400 (4058 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks. That increases my trust of what's being stated quite a bit.


Gary73  (D 21341)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #113 of 400 (3919 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... but I do know that on 2 instructor AFF jumps, the procedure is for the main side instructor to drop their grips and track away as soon as the PC is out of the pouch. ...

Not "as soon as the PC is out of the pouch".
As soon as the PC is released. Very important difference.

But again, we're getting away from the purpose of this thread. Let's all stop speculating and wait until we have actual facts to discuss, instead of using this tragedy as an excuse to get on our soapboxes.


(This post was edited by Gary73 on Mar 25, 2013, 12:55 PM)


Liemberg  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 12:54 PM
Post #114 of 400 (3902 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is all in the assumption that law enforcement doesn't meticulously record an accident scene where there are 2 people found dead, possibly wrongfull and/or criminal. Nobody has access to HD photo and video nowadays, only skydivers know how that stuff works. O... wait. Crazy

Another Observation - not directed at you:

Skydiving Instructors used to get paid for pulling above 2000ft AGL, giving their student a clear visual signal that if they were not already under a parachute it would be an excellent idea to do so, ASAP.

As the Elders used to say: "The further you go below 2000ft in your pursuits, the less likely it is that you will enjoy the fruits of your labor."


devildog  (C 40302)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:02 PM
Post #115 of 400 (3866 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

General question that might relate and is for all the AFFIs out there: If you've had a student go under 2k and you ended up chasing them for whatever reason, were you aware that you were dropping under 2k and should have pulled (but were maybe thinking, "I can save this guy/gal"?)? Or were you so fixated on helping whoever that you didn't realize till much lower were you were because you were dealing with a problem? Just curious.


danornan  (D 11308)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:30 PM
Post #116 of 400 (3775 views)
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Re: [devildog] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been ruled an accident.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2013/mar/25/skydivers-deaths-ruled-an-accident-by-pasco-medica-ar-670264/

As per the article, the reserves came out, but not in time to inflate. Still a lot of unanswered questions.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:43 PM
Post #117 of 400 (3733 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Chuck.
I have always respected you as a top-notch instructor.
Your comments support that.

I think your assessment is very accurate in this incident as well.


chrisward3  (B 6277)

Mar 25, 2013, 1:47 PM
Post #118 of 400 (3720 views)
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Re: [Scrumpot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

its also been reported that the student was wearing a camera

http://blogs.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/parachutes-didnt-deploy-for-two-who-died-near-skydive-city/2111001


(This post was edited by chrisward3 on Mar 25, 2013, 1:47 PM)


hillson  (D 33134)

Mar 25, 2013, 2:03 PM
Post #119 of 400 (3668 views)
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Re: [chrisward3] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
its also been reported that the student was wearing a camera

http://blogs.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/parachutes-didnt-deploy-for-two-who-died-near-skydive-city/2111001

Somewhat misreported...the camera was on the instructor.


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 25, 2013, 2:51 PM
Post #120 of 400 (3529 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not a reply at you Phree, but once again we're missing the point of this incident. It's not about why the AAD's didn't save them. It's about how did they find themselves in a position to need the assistance of an AAD, whether it performed correctly or not. What chain of events occurred to get them to this point?

I disagree. You are partially correct that we need to know how they got into a position where their AADs came into play. But we also need to know why their AADs/rigs/reserves did not function properly. There's a lot to learn about how to deal with things before you get too low, but there's also a lot to learn about how to make sure your AAD functions correctly if e.g. you pass out during a jump for an unavoidable reason.


danornan  (D 11308)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:05 PM
Post #121 of 400 (3492 views)
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Your AAD only cuts the reserve closing loop. Other things can come into play.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:30 PM
Post #122 of 400 (3417 views)
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

It appears that both AAD's operated within their firing parameters.


dudeman17  (D License)

Mar 25, 2013, 3:37 PM
Post #123 of 400 (3395 views)
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Re: [evan85] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

More speculation:

One scenario that I have not seen mentioned is the possibility that, if the student was tumbling or on his back and at a high rate of speed, and if the instructor was in a very fast dive trying to catch him, that at such high freefall speeds the reserves may not have had adequate time to inflate even if the AAD's operated normally.

And I don't agree that speculation is a bad thing. One of the purposes of these discussions is to learn from others' mistakes so as not to repeat them. And we can learn from speculative scenarios, even if those scenarios turn out not to be accurate to a particular incident.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 25, 2013, 4:49 PM
Post #124 of 400 (3212 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
FYI, here are the Vigil I & II activation altitudes:

Code:
Pro:
- 840' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1040' & velocity > 45mph

Tandem:
- 2040' & velocity > 78mph

Ref: http://www.vigil.aero/manuals

Just for clarification - regarding the Vigil firing parameters when in PRO mode.

When a jumper is falling back to earth the Vigil is designed to activate at 840 ft AGL (back flying - sit flying - free flying).

However when a jumper is falling face to earth, it places the sensor of the unit in a depresion zone which will cause it to read an up to 10mbar lower pressure or an altitude of 260 ft higher than the true altitude. This would cause the unit to activate 260 ft lower resulting in a 580 ft activation which of course is too low.

Therefore a compensation of + 260 ft above the nominal activation altitude was integrated into the PRO mode parameters.

In PRO mode a programmed activation altitude of 1100 ft has been set to guarantee
notwithstanding the position of the jumper, activation at a minimum altitude of 840ft above the ground.

So if a jumper were falling in anything other than a good, stable, face-to-earth position (which at that altitude is very possible and some would say likely) the unit will fire at 1100 ft AGL. If in deed the jumper is in a stable, face-to-earth position then the unit will activate at 840ft AGL.

All modes on the Vigil can be offset to higher altiudes. So if a jumper wants his/her AAD to activate higher than standard altiudes they may simply set up their Vigil to do so. It will then default to those new parameters everytime it is booted up.

.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. .


(This post was edited by Skydivesg on Mar 25, 2013, 4:50 PM)




Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Mar 25, 2013, 5:10 PM
Post #126 of 400 (4736 views)
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Re: [MikeMedv] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

> If you double your freefall speed, the canopy hits line stretch much quicker, because
>you cover the same distance in half the time.

That's a false assumption. Almost nothing in the scenario you described scales linearly. Fast freefall rates are indeed a problem for AAD's - in general a 700 foot firing altitude is not high enough for someone going well above normal freefall speeds (like head-downers.)


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 25, 2013, 5:18 PM
Post #127 of 400 (4727 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

this is all you are getting for now folks, more to come, but the video has not been seen by us (at least) yet
TK
Attachments: Press Release 03242013.pdf (39.4 KB)


danornan  (D 11308)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:11 PM
Post #128 of 400 (4601 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks TK


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 25, 2013, 6:29 PM
Post #129 of 400 (4532 views)
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Re: [normiss] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It appears that both AAD's operated within their firing parameters.

The only information I've seen (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that both AADs fired. They could have fired at 840ft, or at 40ft. Until we know that, I don't think you can say that they operated within their firing parameters.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #130 of 400 (4277 views)
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Re: [gregpso] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How about raising activation heights to 1500 feet for students and 1000 feet for expert .. add extra margin of safety. why 750 feet ? hang on I think mr Booth has already raised this !!

When you understand the problem you will understand that raising the altitude will not help. Those reserves wouldn't open in 2000 feet.
If you can't get the bag out of the container you can't get the canopy out of the bag.


Phillbo  (B License)

Mar 25, 2013, 8:46 PM
Post #131 of 400 (4267 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Can someone explain to me the reason for the student parameters here?


FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:

Expert:
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1000' & velocity > 29mph & velocity < 78mph
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Tandem:
- 1900' & velocity > 78mph


evan85  (C 41367)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:01 PM
Post #132 of 400 (4233 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
How about raising activation heights to 1500 feet for students and 1000 feet for expert .. add extra margin of safety. why 750 feet ? hang on I think mr Booth has already raised this !!

When you understand the problem you will understand that raising the altitude will not help. Those reserves wouldn't open in 2000 feet.
If you can't get the bag out of the container you can't get the canopy out of the bag.

Not trying to be contrary, just trying to figure out if I missed something. What facts do you have to support your theory that the malfunction here was that both instructor and student's freebags were stuck in their respective containers?


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:05 PM
Post #133 of 400 (4223 views)
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Re: [Phillbo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can someone explain to me the reason for the student parameters here?


FYI, here are the CYPRES activation altitudes:

Expert:
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Student:
- 1000' & velocity > 29mph & velocity < 78mph
- 750' & velocity > 78mph

Tandem:
- 1900' & velocity > 78mph

The idea is that in the event of a partial mal, the activation altitude bumps up to 1000'.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 25, 2013, 9:08 PM
Post #134 of 400 (4214 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you can't get the bag out of the container you can't get the canopy out of the bag.

Yep, I said the same thing and some are kind of quick discount that theory, yet I think you know WTH you are talking about and I agree. Without seeing the name brand, not that it matters.... but we have seen a hand deployed reserve on a POV vid not all that long ago and had that jumper not done a hand deploy on that stuck free bag he would dead, and there have been others who went in for the same reason... I believe that you would state that is the problem or problems you have already addressed here and other venues as well.

Now that you have said too, maybe less people will discount the theory that was put forth. It will interesting to learn more about the gear used on this accident. Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident.... however I still believe your are correct in regards to the issue you bring up.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 25, 2013, 9:36 PM)


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:54 AM
Post #135 of 400 (3997 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydiving Instructors used to get paid for pulling above 2000ft AGL, giving their student a clear visual signal that if they were not already under a parachute it would be an excellent idea to do so, ASAP.
They still do, in my book. Sorry, but I'm not chasing you below 2000'. Then it's up to you, God, and the AAD I set before I geared you up.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 26, 2013, 5:26 AM
Post #136 of 400 (3780 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

No one has brought up the possibility of complete loss of altitude awareness. It seems almost impossible today but used to be a couple of those types of bounces every year.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:58 AM
Post #137 of 400 (3497 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No one has brought up the possibility of complete loss of altitude awareness. It seems almost impossible today but used to be a couple of those types of bounces every year.
Very true. I lost more than one friend that way.


freeflyer58D  (B 32456)

Mar 26, 2013, 8:02 AM
Post #138 of 400 (3481 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

this is completely an out there idea, but... what altimeter were they using? was it metric or imperial? I have borrowed equipment many times while jumping with big groups. is it possible that they grabbed one set for feet? being at 1000m is nothing to worry about. 1000f is a very different story. add in the low scattered layer. even if they knew it was in feet, it is easy to fall back to habits. as for the AAD and the reserve not getting open, that is a separate issue. i care more about what put two people deep in the corner.


gofastfrance  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 8:13 AM
Post #139 of 400 (3456 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Just something I thought about reading your post.

How does the Vigil know you are not in a stable belly to earth position?
First time I hear about this.

Thanks


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 26, 2013, 8:25 AM
Post #140 of 400 (3419 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
It doesn't seem like a check in/jumper accountability conversation is relevant here, they were found quickly.

You understand the jump at at 1030 and the discovery was 1930?

They were 'missed' quickly...they were 'found' after an extensive search.

'Hayes said the men did not return for two hours, prompting worries among the group.'

I do not consider two hours quick.

Don't get me wrong... I don't think there was much of anything zhills could have done better. I think it is the responsibility of the jumpers to keep track of the people in your group. Zhills does a fantastic job, but what they are doing is NOT a system to track each jumper.

Given the crappy reporting techniques among media these days, I'm not sure I would take a comment that folks were concerned when the jumpers failed to return after 2 hours to mean that a search wasn't started until then.

It is possible that the search was started shortly after the jumpers failed to return AND people were concerned after 2 hours.


Ron

Mar 26, 2013, 8:42 AM
Post #141 of 400 (3378 views)
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Re: [chuckakers] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is possible that the search was started shortly after the jumpers failed to return AND people were concerned after 2 hours.

The point still stands... Zhills has no 'system' to track jumpers.

To the accident.... I am going opine that it was an unstable student with the 'I' chasing him to the basement. The students AAD fired and the 'I' was caught up in the lines when his AAD also fired. Both people were now entangled in lines and neither canopy had a good chance at deployment. <---- Pure speculation, but the only solution that makes sense to me right now.


(This post was edited by Ron on Mar 26, 2013, 8:54 AM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 26, 2013, 8:53 AM
Post #142 of 400 (3331 views)
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Re: [gofastfrance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just something I thought about reading your post.

How does the Vigil know you are not in a stable belly to earth position?
First time I hear about this.

Thanks

He is saying that the actual setting is 1100', but due to the low pressure area on the jumpers back in belly flight, (where the unit is located), it won't fire until 840'. i.e. if the jumper is not in belly position, it will fire at 1100'.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Mar 26, 2013, 9:12 AM
Post #143 of 400 (3272 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
It is possible that the search was started shortly after the jumpers failed to return AND people were concerned after 2 hours.

The point still stands... Zhills has no 'system' to track jumpers.

To the accident.... I am going opine that it was an unstable student with the 'I' chasing him to the basement. The students AAD fired and the 'I' was caught up in the lines when his AAD also fired. Both people were now entangled in lines and neither canopy had a good chance at deployment. <---- Pure speculation, but the only solution that makes sense to me right now.


A second for this. If they have video we should know in a month or two.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 26, 2013, 9:15 AM
Post #144 of 400 (3255 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I was told it did not appear they were entangled and were found very close yet separate. All gear in a very small area.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 26, 2013, 9:24 AM
Post #145 of 400 (3230 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
It is possible that the search was started shortly after the jumpers failed to return AND people were concerned after 2 hours.

The point still stands... Zhills has no 'system' to track jumpers.

To the accident.... I am going opine that it was an unstable student with the 'I' chasing him to the basement. The students AAD fired and the 'I' was caught up in the lines when his AAD also fired. Both people were now entangled in lines and neither canopy had a good chance at deployment. <---- Pure speculation, but the only solution that makes sense to me right now.


A second for this. If they have video we should know in a month or two.

Correct me if I missed something, but I don't think the type off AAD's or activation altitudes have been made public. So yes, speculation on a grand scale.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Mar 26, 2013, 9:32 AM
Post #146 of 400 (3209 views)
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Re: [normiss] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was told it did not appear they were entangled and were found very close yet separate. All gear in a very small area.



Frown

reserve slider(s) up at the canopy?? or down at the links ?
how far away were the freebags?
what were the ground winds??? if any?

sorry for the heartache suffered by All @ the DZ...


Unsure


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 26, 2013, 9:46 AM
Post #147 of 400 (3144 views)
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Re: [gofastfrance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How does the Vigil know you are not in a stable belly to earth position?
First time I hear about this.

The Vigil does not know what your body position is nor does it care. It actually does not even know you are in free fall. Testing is done in a controlled pressure chamber.

The device is designed to sense barometric pressure (which increases as we get closer to the ground) . It also measures the time it takes for that pressure to increase. It then combines that information and using algorithms determines the speed at which the pressure is building. When the speed and altitude meet specific parameters the device sends a signal to the cutter to activate.

The unit has a pressure sensor which is usually inside your reserve pack tray. That sensor is what measures the barometric pressure. When we fall face to earth we create a low pressure area just above our body. This low pressure causes the sensor to read our altitude as higher than we actually are. The difference can be as much as 260 feet which is why the company added 260 feet to activation altitude.

So the Vigil PRO mode is designed to activate no lower than 840 feet AGL but could fire as high as 1100 feet.

I hope that helps.

.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.




airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:29 AM
Post #149 of 400 (3029 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:32 AM
Post #150 of 400 (3014 views)
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In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...


airdvr  (D 10977)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #151 of 400 (4535 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?


bfilak23  (C 38818)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #152 of 400 (4526 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To the accident.... I am going opine that it was an unstable student with the 'I' chasing him to the basement. The students AAD fired and the 'I' was caught up in the lines when his AAD also fired. Both people were now entangled in lines and neither canopy had a good chance at deployment. <---- Pure speculation, but the only solution that makes sense to me right now.

tkhayes posted a press release in post #127 that sheds some light onto the incident. Does not completely explain the event but eliminates some of the speculations floated, including this one.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #153 of 400 (4502 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?

Cypreses shut off after a period of time from the point they are turned on. I'm not sure exactly what that length of time is, but it's not more than 24 hours. I don't know about the other types...

There have been incidents of people turning on their cypres at home then going to the DZ 300-400 feet higher and jumping there. A lady died in CA in that scenario years ago.


DvK  (B License)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #154 of 400 (4499 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?

Cypreses shut off after a period of time from the point they are turned on. I'm not sure exactly what that length of time is, but it's not more than 24 hours. I don't know about the other types...

There have been incidents of people turning on their cypres at home then going to the DZ 300-400 feet higher and jumping there. A lady died in CA in that scenario years ago.

14 hours


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Mar 26, 2013, 10:55 AM
Post #155 of 400 (4460 views)
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Re: [DvK] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

How do you turn on an AAD and not have it reset to ground level at Zhills if you turn it on there? I'm not following...

Maybe it was never shut off from the time they were in Iceland?

Cypreses shut off after a period of time from the point they are turned on. I'm not sure exactly what that length of time is, but it's not more than 24 hours. I don't know about the other types...

There have been incidents of people turning on their cypres at home then going to the DZ 300-400 feet higher and jumping there. A lady died in CA in that scenario years ago.

14 hours

Thanks, I knew it was somewhere around that time frame because I remember being warned to turn my cypres off and turn it back on before doing a night jump, especially if I'd been there all day, to keep it from shutting itself off during night ops.


MomDaBomb

Mar 26, 2013, 11:59 AM
Post #156 of 400 (4326 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Investigators: Skydiving instructor died a 'hero'

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/21798217/2013/03/26/investigators-skydiving-instructor-died-a-hero


chutem  (A 45827)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:17 PM
Post #157 of 400 (4289 views)
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Re: [MomDaBomb] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/...structor-died-a-hero


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:47 PM
Post #158 of 400 (4204 views)
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Re: [chutem] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably means little, but he's wearing an FXC in the picture shown in that story.


dgw  (C License)

Mar 26, 2013, 12:53 PM
Post #159 of 400 (4186 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Probably means little, but he's wearing an FXC in the picture shown in that story.

And big clunky looking gloves.


base283  (D 15343)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:30 PM
Post #160 of 400 (4083 views)
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Re: [MomDaBomb] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Investigators: Skydiving instructor died a 'hero'

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/21798217/2013/03/26/investigators-skydiving-instructor-died-a-hero

I would potentially disagree. He quite possibly could be the cause. Not saying he did. But he didnt save the student.
I only like when the media tells the story i like.
They suck otherwise Wink
Take care,
space


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 26, 2013, 1:59 PM
Post #161 of 400 (4024 views)
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Re: [BillyVance] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

There were two jumpers at the World Meet in Dubai last December who both had two outs due to AAD fires and landed in the Persian Gulf. Same team. Same jump. (not USA)

They both had the older version of the Vigil and had, evidently, traveled half way around the world with their AADs still on.

While they were making their first practice jump before the meet - Voila.

When asked if they did a gear check before donning their rigs they responded - 'Yes and thought it strange that their AADs were on. But then just assumed that the rigging loft turned on their AADs for them during the mandatory gear check at registration.'

Maybe they were thinking 'Wow - we heard Skydive Dubai was a great place but this is real service.'

Th DZ did fish them out of the gulf.

BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:06 PM
Post #162 of 400 (4002 views)
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Re: [dgw] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Obviously he wasn't dressed as in the pic, so gloves were no issue. I think he acted courageously from the vid report, very sad. Wish they would have both made it, probably came close to getting the handle in time. May have been some other problem as well that made the student not pull. Never trust an AAD anyways.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:09 PM
Post #163 of 400 (3989 views)
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Re: [gowlerk] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Probably means little, but he's wearing an FXC in the picture shown in that story.

I'm thinking that could be a photo from back in Europe at a smaller DZ. C-182, older looking gear...
And the big letters "BFSK" on the helmet kind of suggests a visit to the Bergen Fallskjermklubb in Norway. Maybe a shot from the instructor's earlier days?
Whatever.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #164 of 400 (3965 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.
.

Unless everything changed, I thought A.A.D. wants you to turn off the gadget when you leave the DZ to prevent just that sort of thing from happening. Vigils are more easily fooled in that regard than Cypres' and stay on until returned to the DZ pressure elevation. (If you don't move them from the DZ, then yes they turn off at 14 hrs.)


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 26, 2013, 2:17 PM)


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 26, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #165 of 400 (3946 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

Can we break this out into its own thread but where is this documented at? The previous statements were that it would only shut down at 14 hours if the pressure never changed but if you drove home and the elevation at home was higher than at the DZ by a few hundred feet the unit would see that as climbing and would never shut off. If that is changed what Firmware level was that function changed at?


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Mar 26, 2013, 3:39 PM)


faulk04  (D 32457)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:40 PM
Post #166 of 400 (3887 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

Can we break this out into its own thread but where is this documented at?

page 33 of the manual-

says stand by- 14 hours


chutem  (A 45827)

Mar 26, 2013, 2:41 PM
Post #167 of 400 (3884 views)
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Re: Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn't the AAD have had to have been turned on at an altitude lower than the landing area to have caused this incident? After reading that the DZ and accident site are at near sea level I'd have to wonder where the AADs were turned on at that was below sea level.

Edit- After checking it appears the lowest point in Iceland is -146M compared to sea level so it is possible.


(This post was edited by chutem on Mar 26, 2013, 2:52 PM)


PalmSky

Mar 26, 2013, 2:49 PM
Post #168 of 400 (3866 views)
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Re: [chutem] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post


Curious of the type AAD used by both jumpers.

Comes to mind the video where the jumper waits for the aad to fire 500' over the hanger. They must have been very close at 1000 feet, tragedy for everyone involved. My Condolences.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 3:12 PM
Post #169 of 400 (3807 views)
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Re: [jimmytavino] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
reserve slider(s) up at the canopy?? or down at the links ?

Or did police activity re: the gear at the impact site, before expert inspection of the gear was permitted, prevent this (and similar data) from being determined with confidence? That question also needs to be answered.


jhh166  (B License)

Mar 26, 2013, 3:36 PM
Post #170 of 400 (3760 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you can't get the bag out of the container you can't get the canopy out of the bag.

Yep, I said the same thing and some are kind of quick discount that theory, yet I think you know WTH you are talking about and I agree. Without seeing the name brand, not that it matters.... but we have seen a hand deployed reserve on a POV vid not all that long ago and had that jumper not done a hand deploy on that stuck free bag he would dead, and there have been others who went in for the same reason... I believe that you would state that is the problem or problems you have already addressed here and other venues as well.

Now that you have said too, maybe less people will discount the theory that was put forth. It will interesting to learn more about the gear used on this accident. Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident.... however I still believe your are correct in regards to the issue you bring up.

With all due respect sir. We preach that the reason we want people to provide details is for the opportunity to save save lives by spreading information on the incident forum yet you try to hide the manufacture in a post. I believe the incident you are referring to was a Wings container....so voice it! Speculation or not, what is the point of hiding said information?


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Mar 26, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #171 of 400 (3704 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
BTW due to these kinds of unexplainable happenings - Vigils now shut down after 14 hours.

Can we break this out into its own thread but where is this documented at? The previous statements were that it would only shut down at 14 hours if the pressure never changed but if you drove home and the elevation at home was higher than at the DZ by a few hundred feet the unit would see that as climbing and would never shut off. If that is changed what Firmware level was that function changed at?

All Vigil 2s with serial number 26176 and higher
(Version 2.5) will now shut down after 14 hours regardless of where they are. This change occurred around March 2012.

.Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:12 PM
Post #172 of 400 (3659 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert , not sure if it was a I or II. All compatible gear, in good condition with no size of compatibility issues.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 170ish Aerodyne main. Cypres Expert II. All compatible gear with no size or compatibility issues. His cutaway and reserve handles were pulled and cutaway handle was found close by.

Neither main was deployed, still in the containers and pilot chutes in their pouches.

There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement.

As far as we can tell all the gear worked exactly as it should. Please knock off the wild speculating, especially if you have no idea what you are talking about. This is a far simpler situation.


Ron

Mar 26, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #173 of 400 (3644 views)
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Re: [FB1609] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well never mind.....

Since TK said this: "There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement. "

My theory is out.

I find it hard to believe that two jumpers both have AAD fires and both did not get a good canopy before impact without some collision or entanglement being involved.... But it may simply be that.


(This post was edited by Ron on Mar 26, 2013, 4:25 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:19 PM
Post #174 of 400 (3636 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the info!

Are the authorities allowing the AAD's to be sent to Airtec for a data dump?


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:25 PM
Post #175 of 400 (3620 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the update TK.

Any idea if they're going to let a skydiver view the video so we can get an accurate picture of the events?

Also, do you know if the students reserve ripcord was still in place?


(This post was edited by theonlyski on Mar 26, 2013, 4:26 PM)


Trafficdiver  (C 39999)

Mar 26, 2013, 4:50 PM
Post #176 of 400 (6119 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'll add another possibility. Possibly the AAD was not reset for ground level in ZHills.

Florida is pretty damn flat. I can't imagine them setting it in Tampa and having a big difference in altitude by the time they get to Z Hills.

Don't let the Hills in Z Hills fool you.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Mar 26, 2013, 5:02 PM
Post #177 of 400 (6083 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All Vigil 2s with serial number 26176 and higher
(Version 2.5) will now shut down after 14 hours regardless of where they are.

Thanks. Am starting a Gear & Rigging post on this, because it isn't in their latest manual.


Edit:
Based on TK's description, the accident is an interesting side by side comparison of a big reserve (253) and a small reserve (120) failing to deploy in time. One can't just vaguely blame a "small container" on its own.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Mar 26, 2013, 5:20 PM)


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 26, 2013, 5:08 PM
Post #178 of 400 (6071 views)
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Re: [jhh166] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
what is the point of hiding said information?

No one was hiding anything in that post first of all, second of all, I'm willing to wait and see the reports come out and not just start wildly pointing a finger and bashing any one gear MFG. Now that TK has posted important info on the gear http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660, the theory that was being talked about by Mr. Sherman & myself, it would seem may not apply in this accident, as I stated
Quote:
Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident

Part of talking about these events in detail, speculation, theory etc... is all part of the education process and if it gets people thinking out how they do things or maybe change how they do things, it's a good thing, but interjecting the bad mouthing of a company who may or may not have had their product involved would be jumping the gun a tad as well as unfair slander and might even be considered libel, so their you go as to why I write the way I wrote that.

For the record, I still think John Sherman is correct in what his talking about, even if it had nothing to do with this accident.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Mar 26, 2013, 5:09 PM)


Usarig  (D 11893)

Mar 26, 2013, 6:37 PM
Post #179 of 400 (5886 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Tk,

Did the Icon have a skyhook installed?


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 6:42 PM
Post #180 of 400 (5869 views)
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Re: [Usarig] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Did the Icon have a skyhook installed?

With no mains deployed, how is that relevant?


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:04 PM
Post #181 of 400 (5814 views)
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Re: [labrys] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Did the Icon have a skyhook installed?

With no mains deployed, how is that relevant?

A misrigged skyhook could cause a hesitation/delay/failure of the reserve deployment.


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:13 PM
Post #182 of 400 (5794 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A misrigged skyhook could cause a hesitation/delay/failure of the reserve deployment.

So could a misrigged RSL or reserve or CYPRES.


(This post was edited by labrys on Mar 26, 2013, 7:17 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:30 PM
Post #183 of 400 (5741 views)
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Re: [labrys] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
A misrigged skyhook could cause a hesitation/delay/failure of the reserve deployment.

So could a misrigged RSL or reserve or CYPRES.

Okay, please explain to me how a misrigged conventional Icon RSL could cause a reserve delay/hesitation/failure to deploy, with no main out, and that got past the rigging loft...

The Skyhook failure possibility would've effected it, wouldn't have been seen on a gear check (the spot is hidden under 5 flaps below the pin on an Icon) and could still hamper a CYPRES deployment.

All it would take is tacking the red lanyard to the skyhook with something other than ONE pass of red seal thread.


jhh166  (B License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #184 of 400 (5735 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
what is the point of hiding said information?

No one was hiding anything in that post first of all, second of all, I'm willing to wait and see the reports come out and not just start wildly pointing a finger and bashing any one gear MFG. Now that TK has posted important info on the gear http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660, the theory that was being talked about by Mr. Sherman & myself, it would seem may not apply in this accident, as I stated
Quote:
Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident

Part of talking about these events in detail, speculation, theory etc... is all part of the education process and if it gets people thinking out how they do things or maybe change how they do things, it's a good thing, but interjecting the bad mouthing of a company who may or may not have had their product involved would be jumping the gun a tad as well as unfair slander and might even be considered libel, so their you go as to why I write the way I wrote that.

For the record, I still think John Sherman is correct in what his talking about, even if it had nothing to do with this accident.
I disagree completely, user error and manufacture error carry equal amount of weight in the incident forum.


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:34 PM
Post #185 of 400 (5729 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Okay, please explain to me how a misrigged conventional Icon RSL could cause a reserve delay/hesitation/failure to deploy, with no main out, and that got past the rigging loft...

The Skyhook failure possibility would've effected it, wouldn't have been seen on a gear check (the spot is hidden under 5 flaps below the pin on an Icon) and could still hamper a CYPRES deployment.

Are you asking about problems that can be caught on a gear check, or problems that got past a rigging loft?


theonlyski  (D License)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:35 PM
Post #186 of 400 (5725 views)
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Re: [labrys] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Okay, please explain to me how a misrigged conventional Icon RSL could cause a reserve delay/hesitation/failure to deploy, with no main out, and that got past the rigging loft...

The Skyhook failure possibility would've effected it, wouldn't have been seen on a gear check (the spot is hidden under 5 flaps below the pin on an Icon) and could still hamper a CYPRES deployment.

Are you asking about problems that can be caught on a gear check, or problems that got past a rigging loft?

You said that the RSL or CYPRES could've impeded the deployment of a reserve with no main deployed.

How?


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 26, 2013, 7:59 PM
Post #187 of 400 (5674 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

RSL... I think you're right there. I misspoke. CYPRES... Imagine a misrigged cutter with the closing loop wrapped around the cutter instead if passing through it. Releasing tension on the closing loop (pulling the reserve handle) could cause the cutter to trap the reserve in the container. Is that any different than a misrigged skyhook?


ixlr82  (C 33491)

Mar 26, 2013, 8:02 PM
Post #188 of 400 (5666 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a scenario, other than desperation or brainlock, that would explain why the instructors cutaway handle was pulled?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Mar 26, 2013, 8:16 PM
Post #189 of 400 (5649 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is full of speculation and rampant rumors. I am going to lock this thread for a few days to let TK continue to provide answers to some of the questions.

If there are no major updates for this thread from the official channels in a few days I will unlock this since the news articles seem to be publishing more information that could be discussed.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 28, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #190 of 400 (4321 views)
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Re: [devildog] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
General question that might relate and is for all the AFFIs out there: If you've had a student go under 2k and you ended up chasing them for whatever reason, were you aware that you were dropping under 2k and should have pulled (but were maybe thinking, "I can save this guy/gal"?)? Or were you so fixated on helping whoever that you didn't realize till much lower were you were because you were dealing with a problem? Just curious.

I'll answer that. Yes, everytime I've chased a student lower than I should have (below 2000 feet), I"ve known it because I never jump without a three-tone audible. I set my bottom "solid" tone at three grand and I know that when that solid tone has ended that I'm definitely down in the "thick air." So yes, I know exactly what I'm doing and yes, I know that I don't have any business chasing anyone below two grand. Adrenaline and the the overwhelming "need" to help a student/ fellow jumper override common sense, though, in the heat of the moment. At least for me that's been the case. It's not in my genetic code to simply "give up."

Chuck


medusa  (D 27526)

Mar 28, 2013, 11:35 AM
Post #191 of 400 (4136 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we have any certain information on what happen?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:19 PM
Post #192 of 400 (3748 views)
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Re: [ixlr82] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is there a scenario, other than desperation or brainlock, that would explain why the instructors cutaway handle was pulled?

Some people are taught, and some adhere to, the K.I.S.S. principle:
Regardless of what the problem is, cutaway and deploy the reserve.

It's wrong but all-to-common.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 28, 2013, 5:54 PM
Post #193 of 400 (3693 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Some people are taught, and some adhere to, the K.I.S.S. principle:
Regardless of what the problem is, cutaway and deploy the reserve.

It's wrong but all-to-common.

Bravo Andy!

There is nothing simple about skydiving. There are infinite ways to kill yourself.

I heard someone say once. This is a thinking man's game. Too true. The problem lies in the fact that sometimes there is no time to think.

If you haven't properly trained yourself to respond correctly and immediately in any given scenario you could find yourself behind the 8 ball.


shorehambeach  (B License)

Mar 29, 2013, 11:47 AM
Post #194 of 400 (3040 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Mar 29, 2013, 12:23 PM
Post #195 of 400 (2997 views)
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Re: [shorehambeach] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.

He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your "decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord.


livendive  (D 21415)

Mar 29, 2013, 1:42 PM
Post #196 of 400 (2901 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.

He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your "decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord.

Excellent advice, as difficult as it might be to execute. I know that my muscle memory is faster than my brain...at triple digit altitudes, my right hand throws a pilot chute faster than my brain can tell my left hand to pull reserve. Every other person I know who's found themself with a similarly shrinking window of opportunity has done the same thing, even those with several thousand jumps. When my brain processes "must have parachute RIGHT NOW", it kind of goes into auto-pilot. I've seen a bunch of AAD fires, but never once someone going straight to their reserve below 1500 ft.

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on Mar 29, 2013, 1:44 PM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Mar 29, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #197 of 400 (2884 views)
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Re: [livendive] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

And if you're ever in that situation, the last thing you want to do is overthink it, and say "open parachute" then say "oops -- no, open reserve."

Wendy P.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 29, 2013, 2:07 PM
Post #198 of 400 (2845 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a lot of good books on human decision making, particularly under very stressful conditions, that clearly demonstrate "just going for your reserve" isn't quite so easy when you're in that set of circumstances.

I think by the time we're in that situation we've already made so many bad decisions, or have gotten in so far over our heads, that you're rolling the dice against your muscle memory.

Ian


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Mar 29, 2013, 4:16 PM
Post #199 of 400 (2688 views)
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Re: [Liemberg] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Skydiving Instructors used to get paid for pulling above 2000ft AGL....

They still do.


PalmSky

Mar 29, 2013, 4:32 PM
Post #200 of 400 (2667 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

As TK said in the interview I saw. Horrible, was the word used to describe this.

The one thing I'm real curious and SKM1 commented on it, about chasing a student low. Obviously saving someone is somewhat hard-wired with certain ppl.

What I'm curious about is the cypress data, is a burble created by two jumpers this low, as fast as they may have been which would skew the cypress data? What I mean is, obviously a much higher break-off is the norm but did it contribute to this incident in anyway? Just curious, did the act of trying to save the student doom them both? ....hopefully not, but again real curious about the cypress data.


wrightskyguy  (D 19665)

Mar 30, 2013, 5:02 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I realize that it's not in everyone's nature to "give up" on a student below 2000, but you have to be conscious of the fact that you are far more likely to make the situation worse than you are to help in any way by chasing them near AAD firing altitudes. Fall back on your training and trust the equipment.


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Mar 30, 2013, 6:16 AM
Post #202 of 400 (4062 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert , not sure if it was a I or II. All compatible gear, in good condition with no size of compatibility issues.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 170ish Aerodyne main. Cypres Expert II. All compatible gear with no size or compatibility issues. His cutaway and reserve handles were pulled and cutaway handle was found close by.

Neither main was deployed, still in the containers and pilot chutes in their pouches.

There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement.

As far as we can tell all the gear worked exactly as it should. Please knock off the wild speculating, especially if you have no idea what you are talking about. This is a far simpler situation.

correction, the Instructor's main was a Pilot 117, not 170.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 30, 2013, 8:09 AM
Post #203 of 400 (3961 views)
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In reply to:
I realize that it's not in everyone's nature to "give up" on a student below 2000, but you have to be conscious of the fact that you are far more likely to make the situation worse than you are to help in any way by chasing them near AAD firing altitudes. Fall back on your training and trust the equipment.
I would say that chasing a student too low is a sign that the AFF-I did "give up".
Gave up on their training
Gave up on common sense
Gave up on the idea that we are all just human, not supermen
Gave up on the idea of saving his/her own life

Maybe because I spent 20 years teaching S/L before I got my AFF-I, where once the student leaves the airplane they HAVE to save themselves.
Maybe because I have run coach courses for so many years, where break-off procedures for a no-pull student are so important

I've thought about this alot, both before I got the rating and a lot more after this incident, and if I don't have a solid grip on a student at 2500', it means that shit has gone really bad. It means that the student is nowhere near stable, high fall rate. That means I've probably got 5 seconds to catch, stabilize, pull for the student, track and deploy by 1000'. Maybe less.
If I haven't been able to do this from 5500' down to 2500' it's time to stop.


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Mar 30, 2013, 10:17 AM
Post #204 of 400 (3862 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll say a few thing that are worth mention.

First of all, I would never chase a student below the hard deck at the risk of getting a pilot chute in my face off of an aad fire and ending the idea of saving us both right there. That is easily the fattest link in the chain of this incident.

The failure of getting reserves in time off the aad fires is troubling. Possibilities?

I know from rigging skyhooks that the bridle to p/c is a bit shorter than a standard bridle (distance to hardware) without a skyhook. I am curious if the added speed (larger burble) of a jumper chasing a jumper, a pause where the hardware breaks the seal thread and releases of the colin's lanyard, would cause a hesitation in a direct reserve deployment enough for this outcome. We have seen a perfect storm where the skyhook was a complication before.

Also, did the same rigger pack both of these rigs? If so, has someone cracked open another one of his skyhook packjobs to see if there are any deviations that could cause a hesitation?

I see these as possibilities pending what Cypres finds from the units, which in most cases come back as having operated where they should.

So, with that. Looking forward to hearing what a full investigation finds.

FYI, if anyone thinks I am trying to flame UPT, choke on it. Still the most innovative and diligent R&D mfgs. out there, but no one can anticipate the new ways skydivers reinvent how to kill themselves.

-Jon


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 30, 2013, 11:01 AM
Post #205 of 400 (3826 views)
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In reply to:
Popsjumper

As a newbie that always takes an interest in your posts - could you expand on your post and explain what you mean.

Thanks in advance.

With respect to this thread, SM! is correct when he said:
"He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your "decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord. "

There's much more to it than just the topic of this thread. There are established 'best practice' procedures for handling mals. I am a strong proponent of those established procedures.

If you'd like, we can discuss those other procedures off line and leave this thread focused on the topic at hand. If you want to do that over the phone send me a PM with your number and a best-time-to call and I'll do that...it's better than writing back and forth.

Andy


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 30, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #206 of 400 (3741 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Think about the time...
At normal freefall speeds, 1000' takes about 5 seconds.
That means at 740', about 3.5 seconds left.
Reserves are required to open in 3 seconds.
as speed increases, time shortens.
Unstable/spinning increases speed.
The only S/L student I've put out and had a Cypres save;
10 second delay from about 5000'.
The student started spinning about 3 seconds after release, I counted to 20, no parachute or pilot chute, turned to the pilot (cessna) and waved for a go-round (maybe 3-4 seconds max), looked back down and saw a reserve canopy collapsing. I wasn't sure/didn't think it could have even fully inflated.
I went out the door head down thinking about what I was going to find, slowed down and deployed about 2500' and as I was spiraling down saw the canopy moving. He was picking it up.
He had a 3 -5 second canopy ride, never got the brakes unstowed, but was fine.
We sent in the Cypres and it had fired at the proper altitude.
Just my way of saying that even if evrything works right, theres not much time....


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Mar 30, 2013, 12:45 PM)


chuteshack

Mar 30, 2013, 1:32 PM
Post #207 of 400 (3693 views)
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i have always thought that 750 ft was way too low, anyone have any idea how airtek arrived at that particular activation altitude?


Premier WickedWingsuits  (D 30916)

Mar 30, 2013, 2:03 PM
Post #208 of 400 (3656 views)
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Re: [chuteshack] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Check out the CYPRES2 manual. It states that increasing the activation altitude increases the risk of a 2 out. It also states that the lower it is increases the chance of reserve inflation failure.

If you want a higher activation altitude you can increase it.

http://www.cypresusa.com/..._English_01-2013.pdf

If this accident is good for anything it should be for people to at least understand how their gadgets work...what they will do and especially what they will not.


Ron

Mar 30, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #209 of 400 (3579 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Two things that REALLY need to be mentioned... Some have been talked about, but some have not yet been discussed.

1. When you find yourself low and need a canopy.... Your right hand will react faster than your left hand. I know this first hand. I was LOW (how I got there is another story of my personal stupidity). When I saw the horizon rush past my feet..... Yeah, that low. My mind screamed DEPLOY the reserve. By the time I had finished that thought, my main was deploying.

If it was not for that, I am not sure I would still be alive. Luckily, it was years ago and my main was a Raven II.

2. "First of all, I would never chase a student below the hard deck" Same thing.... You never PLAN to chase a student below the hard deck. Just like people never plan on riding a mal till they cut away at 100 feet and hit the ground. Just like people never plan on hooking so low that they hit the ground after their canopy.... But these things all happen.

It is the "I can fix this" that gets you.


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 30, 2013, 6:15 PM
Post #210 of 400 (3437 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are a lot of good books on human decision making, particularly under very stressful conditions, that clearly demonstrate "just going for your reserve" isn't quite so easy when you're in that set of circumstances.

I think by the time we're in that situation we've already made so many bad decisions, or have gotten in so far over our heads, that you're rolling the dice against your muscle memory.

Ian


Performance Designs Factory Team

True, but I will still train myself to go silver under my decision altitude with nothing out and hope I execute it correctly because that is the right response PERIOD. Just because you might revert to your main does not mean you should. I refuse to say screw it because I will probably pull my main anyway. I will train how to do it right.

BTW I have seen someone go to silver under 1500


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 30, 2013, 6:36 PM
Post #211 of 400 (3422 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not disagreeing with training for that scenario, if anything i'm agreeing with that statement.

That said, the majority of the armchair quarterbacks rarely actually train themselves mentally for that and, therefore, are most likely to do exactly what they're criticizing another of doing.

To me, one of the biggest dangers is not understanding how and why someone made a fatal mistake. Then we have to recognize that we would do it too (most likely) in the same situation were we not to train rigorously for it.

Finally, the best way to avoid these these situations is to follow the rules that prevent you from getting in them in the first place. Once we start to place ourselves in HIGHLY stressful situations our ability to apply rational thought greatly diminishes. Regardless of how cool headed one may be there is a point where the stress levels are elevated so much that there is simply no more rational thought. It's best to avoid these as we really do roll the dice once we get to that place.

That's more my point.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 30, 2013, 6:39 PM)


EFS4LIFE  (D 31885)

Mar 30, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #212 of 400 (3395 views)
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Ian I agree with that follow up post 110%. Every word.

I might be guilty of misunderstanding the prior post of yours that I responded to.

Chalk it up to a full day of chucking drogues and then maybe a little too many 12oz curls. Wink


(This post was edited by EFS4LIFE on Mar 30, 2013, 6:56 PM)


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Mar 30, 2013, 7:06 PM
Post #213 of 400 (3372 views)
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Re: [EFS4LIFE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

All good - I wasn't particularly clear on the first post Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 30, 2013, 7:37 PM
Post #214 of 400 (3334 views)
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In reply to:
...the majority of the armchair quarterbacks rarely actually train themselves mentally for that and, therefore, are most likely to do exactly what they're criticizing another of doing.
...and then there's the bozos who have been there, done that and who, fortunately, lived to tell the story with experience to back it up.

Unsure


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 30, 2013, 7:42 PM
Post #215 of 400 (3324 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Andy,

There are, of course, people who've been there and done that.

There are, IMO, far more who think it can't happen to them or think they can't make the same mistakes. That, IMO, is folly.

Too often incidents are dismissed, or quarterbacked to death NOT to actually understand why the incident happened, or what lead to the incident but rather so that jumpers can justify to themselves "Why they'd never do that" so they can feel good about it and move on.

Nothing specific to this incident, just something I've been pondering for a few years. Even more so after reading "Deep Survival" - a book I highly recommend all skydivers read even though it has ZERO to do with skydiving.

Blues,
Ian

Edit: I realize I'm now cluttering the incident forum so we can take this to PM's or the S&T forum where it's more appropriate.


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Mar 30, 2013, 7:44 PM)


skydived19006  (D 19006)

Mar 30, 2013, 9:12 PM
Post #216 of 400 (3246 views)
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Re: [Ron] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

It is the "I can fix this" that gets you.

That's statement in my experience is the short answer to a large percentage fatalities in this sport. The other would be arrogance combined with a dose of ignorance. See "Dunning-Kruger Effect"

http://en.wikipedia.org/...2%80%93Kruger_effect

I to years ago found myself in freefall at or below 1500' (in the era of F111 mains and 2K main deployments). I can say that the motor skills had my main PC out before I had a chance to think about anything else. At the time, I second thought that jump a whole lot. My decision and conviction was to NEVER again find myself in that situation!

My DZ hasn't started the season yet due to a maintenance issue. We also haven't ran a Safety Day. "It is the "I can fix this" that gets you." I think will be the Safety Day theme this year.


(This post was edited by skydived19006 on Mar 30, 2013, 9:14 PM)


carbonezone  (D 23582)

Mar 31, 2013, 12:17 AM
Post #217 of 400 (3166 views)
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In reply to:
There are, of course, people who've been there and done that.

There are, IMO, far more who think it can't happen to them or think they can't make the same mistakes. That, IMO, is folly.

Too often incidents are dismissed, or quarterbacked to death NOT to actually understand why the incident happened, or what lead to the incident but rather so that jumpers can justify to themselves "Why they'd never do that" so they can feel good about it and move on.
AMEN.....it IS appropriate right here right now!!!!
Thanks Ian!!!
Tami C.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 31, 2013, 6:40 AM
Post #218 of 400 (2959 views)
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Re: [MrHixxx] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The next bit of data I want to hear is the container(s) size and type and reserve canopy(s) size and type.


Bitswd

Mar 31, 2013, 7:59 AM
Post #219 of 400 (2860 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 117ish Aerodyne pilot main. Cypres Expert II.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Mar 31, 2013, 8:20 AM
Post #220 of 400 (2834 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
There are, of course, people who've been there and done that.

There are, IMO, far more who think it can't happen to them or think they can't make the same mistakes. That, IMO, is folly.

Too often incidents are dismissed, or quarterbacked to death NOT to actually understand why the incident happened, or what lead to the incident but rather so that jumpers can justify to themselves "Why they'd never do that" so they can feel good about it and move on.
AMEN.....it IS appropriate right here right now!!!!
Thanks Ian!!!
Tami C.
And that is why I find a lot of the focus of this incident (both here and in the other threads) very troubling. Most people seem to be entirely focused on "why didn't these electro-mechanical devices save them?"
Rather than Ian's question of "how did both end up in this situation?"
Is this sport really so filled with people that believe an AAD guarantees them an inflated canopy no matter what?
Every first jump course I teach, and I'm sure EVERY first jump course tells the students in no uncertain terms that an AAD is only a machine, machines can fail, and that we are responsible for saving our own lives.
I really am starting to wonder how many people would leave the sport if they lose that total faith in their AAD and it's ability to save them.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Mar 31, 2013, 8:48 AM
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In reply to:
And that is why I find a lot of the focus of this incident (both here and in the other threads) very troubling. Most people seem to be entirely focused on "why didn't these electro-mechanical devices save them?"
Rather than Ian's question of "how did both end up in this situation?"
Is this sport really so filled with people that believe an AAD guarantees them an inflated canopy no matter what?
Every first jump course I teach, and I'm sure EVERY first jump course tells the students in no uncertain terms that an AAD is only a machine, machines can fail, and that we are responsible for saving our own lives.
I really am starting to wonder how many people would leave the sport if they lose that total faith in their AAD and it's ability to save them.

Although I agree with you that ultimately an AAD is strictly a backup device and there is no guarantee it will work, I would also suggest that if there is a known failure mode for the AAD that it is also appropriate to try to mitigate or fix those failure modes. It is not a one-or-the-other. We've seen enough of these low AAD-fire and no inflated canopy incidents that it is certainly appropriate to ask questions and try to figure out if we can't make those better.

To be fair, it is unclear where the failure mode is, whether it is in the firing height or whether there is something more basic about the rig designs that are causing slow/no deployments.

Of course we are responsible for saving our own lives and if I go in without a canopy out because it didn't inflate after an AAD fire, well, that is on me. In the meantime I would still like to give myself the best chance to get a good canopy over my head if I am ever in a situation to need an AAD.

Mitigation of risk involves looking at all factors.


MakeItHappen

Mar 31, 2013, 10:06 AM
Post #222 of 400 (2709 views)
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Re: [] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

The most positive and obvious PULL signal an instructor can give is to
PULL right in front of the student.

That sends a message that the student is in deep shit.

This hero making of the instructor chasing a student down low is BS.

The best thing an instructor can do, when down and dirty, is to pull in front of the student.

The End of AFF Level 1

You need to teach your students that
"If you see me pull, you need to pull immediately."

Call me selfish, but I am not losing my life to save yours on a no/low pull.

.


FB1609  (C 1409)

Mar 31, 2013, 10:18 AM
Post #223 of 400 (2688 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

^Still, I'm sure the Instructors intention was for them both to live, so he's still a hero in my books


jerm  (D 23994)

Mar 31, 2013, 10:38 AM
Post #224 of 400 (2653 views)
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Re: [MakeItHappen] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether or not he should be viewed a hero within the sport is certainly up for debate.

I'm certainly fine with the greater world being able to view one of us as a hero for once instead of laying blame anywhere they can. So long as we still try to learn how to do it better, let them have their hero.


BMFin

Mar 31, 2013, 10:39 AM
Post #225 of 400 (2649 views)
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Re: [ufk22] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And that is why I find a lot of the focus of this incident (both here and in the other threads) very troubling. Most people seem to be entirely focused on "why didn't these electro-mechanical devices save them?"
Rather than Ian's question of "how did both end up in this situation?"

I agree that also the events leading to this outcome are relevant, and should be discussed.

However, I think the reason why most of us are focusing on the AAD issue, is that most of the rules and principles that prevent us from ending up in a situation like this are already known. Even if some AFF instructors have the tendency to chase students etc, we already know how we should act in this kind of situation by the book.

What is no known yet, and what is most distinctive in this incident is that so far it seems that two AAD´s failed to fire at the same time.

When people are focusing on this very rare detail of the incident, it doesnt mean that people would be placing their lives on AAD´s (as they shouldnt). I think most of us are simply keen to learn how was this kind of double ADD failure possible.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Mar 31, 2013, 10:42 AM
Post #226 of 400 (3996 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is no known yet, and what is most distinctive in this incident is that so far it seems that two AAD´s failed to fire at the same time.

From the information that has been this is simply factually incorrect. Both AADs fired.


BMFin

Mar 31, 2013, 10:55 AM
Post #227 of 400 (3983 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What is no known yet, and what is most distinctive in this incident is that so far it seems that two AAD´s failed to fire at the same time.

From the information that has been this is simply factually incorrect. Both AADs fired.

Yes, as soon as I posted I also saw that there may have been a mistake in my wording. You are right. The info given so far suggests both AAD´s fired, but for some reason the reserves did not fully inflate.

IMO the reason why neither of the reserves had time to inflate seems to be the biggest mystery in this tragic incident.


normiss  (D 28356)

Mar 31, 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #228 of 400 (3950 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I still believe both AAD's fired as they should have.
Absent of the Cypres data, we don't yet know for sure, but I seriously expect they operated within their parameters.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Mar 31, 2013, 2:15 PM
Post #229 of 400 (3808 views)
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Re: [skydived19006] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"It is the "I can fix this" that gets you." I think will be the Safety Day theme this year.

I like it!


oozzee  (D License)

Mar 31, 2013, 3:43 PM
Post #230 of 400 (3730 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

its so simple......
ALTITUDE
AWARENESS...

the altitude dictates the reponse..
totally aviodable incident...


feuergnom  (D License)

Mar 31, 2013, 4:06 PM
Post #231 of 400 (3693 views)
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Re: [oozzee] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

after sifting through seven pages and the other thread on the same incident I can't help but wonder.
Wonder how many jumpers have no frikkin clue on how their gear and it's components work. I'm even more amazed that so few even care to RTFM and ask questions then.... and I am bewildered about the amount of utter BS in thesetwo threads....

instructor and student burning in is no question about aad's working or not or activation altitudes. It's about ATTITUDE and making the right decisions. and if you make the right decision you may not be a hero but you might still be living....


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 31, 2013, 6:31 PM
Post #232 of 400 (3554 views)
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Re: [Bitswd] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 117ish Aerodyne pilot main. Cypres Expert II.

Container sizes. Need that information.


jbrasher  (D 5166)

Mar 31, 2013, 7:48 PM
Post #233 of 400 (3475 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Couldn't have said it better :-)


sinjin  (A 210530)

Mar 31, 2013, 10:33 PM
Post #234 of 400 (3372 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

who are you to judge what the right decision was for this instructor. maybe he felt like the right decision for him was to try save the student. maybe he couldnt live with having a student go in with doing all he could at the cost of his own life. just cause the manual or someone else wont or doesnt want to. it was his decision alone, and he made it. i am under the presumption here that the student was incapacitated/unconscious, but not sure that matters over all. this sport is still about individual choices and responsibility. i agree the student is on his own below 2k, but i still have nothing but admiration for this instructor who gave everything he had to try to save him. i think he made the right decision for him, he was there.


fencebuster  (D 29918)

Apr 1, 2013, 6:47 AM
Post #235 of 400 (3136 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know your background or experience, but this is simply wrong. AFFI's are trained to standards and are expected to follow them. You do not chase a student below 2000 feet. I concur that the best thing an instructor can do is to pull in front of a student, after thorough ground training on AFF gone-bad scenarios, if he/she does not have a grip on the student. Chasing below 2000 is contrary to training and it does the sport no good to have two people burn in, rather than one. I am very sorry that these two skydivers died in the sport we all love, but when things get dicey, we all are expected to do our job -- follow the rules and our training and save our own lives.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 1, 2013, 6:50 AM
Post #236 of 400 (3130 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm the one to judge that. He did not give the student every opportunity to save themselves.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Apr 1, 2013, 6:55 AM
Post #237 of 400 (3119 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

  I do agree with your sig line..." Don't let life pass you by "....Unimpressed

but Must also add to it... " don't throw your life away,,either "...Unsure

hard decks are in place for a reason..Unsure

Maybe.. the student WAS blacked out.. I dunno...but for sure If the instructor pulled the cutaway handle,
(as was reported ) then HE was Not..Unimpressed
When ground rush starts to eat us UP... ya' gotta "go silver"... and right NOW!!!!!!!
imo

safety 1st and what the hell, safety 2nd too.


(This post was edited by jimmytavino on Apr 1, 2013, 7:13 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Apr 1, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #238 of 400 (3114 views)
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Re: [fencebuster] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
AFFI's are trained to standards and are expected to follow them. You do not chase a student below 2000 feet. I concur that the best thing an instructor can do is to pull in front of a student,

I haven't kept up on the details of this thread (or the other 2 related to this incident) because I lost track of what was real and what was speculation.

There has been some talk about higher airpseed at Cypres fire altitude, which would explain the lack of time for full reserve inflation for both jumpers.

One explanation was a tumbling student, which would account for higher airpseeds. Another angle was an unconscious student, which would also account for higher speeds. Now how a student would go from 'ready to jump' at altitude to unconscious at/below pull time is a mystery to me, but medical or an in-air collision could contribute to that scenario.

In either case, if a student did 'go limp', I can see an instructor busting the hard deck to get to them. Pulling in front of them would do no good in that case. If the student was unconscious do to a collision, it would have to be with the instructor (the only other person in freefall with them), and again, I can see them feeling responsible for the situation and going 'over and above' to make up for it.

That said, there's no sense in any situation of being below 1000ft without a handle pulled. You can dump out a student at 1500ft, and have time to dump yourself out and live (although a total or high speed mal will cut things VERY close). Unless you have a hand on them by 2k, the simple fact is that it's just not going to happen in time for everyone to make it out alive. You have to hand the deal over the Cypres, and hope for best.

In the case of a jumper who is conscious, stick to the manual and dump by 2.5k. It sends the right message.


toolbox  (D 18778)

Apr 1, 2013, 8:52 AM
Post #239 of 400 (2942 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the imfo TK.


Ron

Apr 1, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #240 of 400 (2907 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
who are you to judge what the right decision was for this instructor

Well, we the living have to learn from the mistakes of those that preceded us.

Quote:
maybe he felt like the right decision for him was to try save the student

His training should have told him otherwise. Two deaths are worse than one death and I very much doubt that given a second chance and knowing the outcome that he would have performed the same. It is too late for him, but for the living we can learn from his mistake - And yes dying trying to catch a student, while noble, is a mistake no matter how you look at it.

Dying skydiving is almost ALWAYS due to a mistake. To ignore that, or worse glamorize it is the worst thing we can do here. Do you know how many times I have heard skydivers claim that they will chase someone till CYPRES fire 'knowing' that the CYPRES will save them? TONS. This is proof that the idea, while noble in theory, is flawed.

Quote:
i think he made the right decision for him

Quote from you from above: "who are you to judge what the right decision was"?????

You think your family would be OK if you burned in, or would they rather you be alive?

I am not saying this instructor was a bad person. I am not saying this instructor was stupid, or any other negative.... I am simply saying that chasing the student to CYPRES fire is a mistake. Good, smart, and talented people make mistakes.... This is one of them.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 1, 2013, 9:25 AM
Post #241 of 400 (2929 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Is there a scenario, other than desperation or brainlock, that would explain why the instructors cutaway handle was pulled?

Some people are taught, and some adhere to, the K.I.S.S. principle:
Regardless of what the problem is, cutaway and deploy the reserve.

It's wrong but all-to-common.
I agree with Andy's last statement. The fatality at LP two summers ago? Total on the main, cutaway handle pulled, impacted before pulling the reserve.

You need to have some level of rational ability when handling malfunctions or you need to find a new sport. Unsure


mark  (D 6108)

Apr 1, 2013, 9:28 AM
Post #242 of 400 (2926 views)
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Re: Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Bonadies. It's been about 10 years. AFF instructor, nice guy, well thought of. The last thing he did before he went in was to make his student's situation arguably worse.

Mark


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Apr 1, 2013, 9:43 AM
Post #243 of 400 (2890 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the case of a jumper who is conscious, stick to the manual and dump by 2.5k. It sends the right message.
I won't chase a student below the hard deck, at least I hope not.

When you jump out of a plane, I don't care who's holding on to you, you're on your own, and it's up to YOU to deploy your own chute and make a safe landing. Any help you may receive is a bonus. Unsure


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 1, 2013, 9:56 AM
Post #244 of 400 (2864 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

...who are you to judge what the right decision was for this instructor.

In reply to:

It's rather obvious.

It was the wrong decision...he's dead.

I'm sure if he was able, he would concur.


marks2065  (D 18925)

Apr 1, 2013, 12:31 PM
Post #245 of 400 (2657 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
what is the point of hiding said information?

No one was hiding anything in that post first of all, second of all, I'm willing to wait and see the reports come out and not just start wildly pointing a finger and bashing any one gear MFG. Now that TK has posted important info on the gear http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660, the theory that was being talked about by Mr. Sherman & myself, it would seem may not apply in this accident, as I stated
Quote:
Then again, there are rumors that might blow that theory in regards to this accident

Part of talking about these events in detail, speculation, theory etc... is all part of the education process and if it gets people thinking out how they do things or maybe change how they do things, it's a good thing, but interjecting the bad mouthing of a company who may or may not have had their product involved would be jumping the gun a tad as well as unfair slander and might even be considered libel, so their you go as to why I write the way I wrote that.

For the record, I still think John Sherman is correct in what his talking about, even if it had nothing to do with this accident.

The javelin and vortex had similar design. the vortex had the side flaps for the main container a little higher up the reserve container. I have personally seen a 110 lb girl lifted off the floor by the reserve bridle on a vortex container with the main still in place. the reserve did slide out when when the girl was bounced by the bridle. this hessitation could very well be part of the problem.


marks2065  (D 18925)

Apr 1, 2013, 12:43 PM
Post #246 of 400 (2644 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"It is the "I can fix this" that gets you." I think will be the Safety Day theme this year.

I like it!
I have seen several jumpers get mocked for cutting away a fixeable main, this has got to stop! until some one is there giving advise at 2000 ft under a mal the student has done right by getting the reserve over their head. I tell people that they have to either say I got the fix or I'll get the reserve out and figure it out later.


feuergnom  (D License)

Apr 1, 2013, 1:56 PM
Post #247 of 400 (2542 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
who are you to judge what the right decision was for this instructor. maybe he felt like the right decision for him was to try save the student. maybe he couldnt live with having a student go in with doing all he could at the cost of his own life. just cause the manual or someone else wont or doesnt want to. it was his decision alone, and he made it. i am under the presumption here that the student was incapacitated/unconscious, but not sure that matters over all. this sport is still about individual choices and responsibility. i agree the student is on his own below 2k, but i still have nothing but admiration for this instructor who gave everything he had to try to save him. i think he made the right decision for him, he was there.


the right decision for this instructor would have been to deploy his own canopy when he went through the hard deck. If you are not willing to go down that road (and hopefully never but as bad luck might have it you might be the one to loose a student), then don't get an instructional rating ever...

the deviation from the "path of right decisions" was left when he lost control of the student and started improvising.

and since you asked who I am: I stopped doing tandem when I felt I no longer was ahead or at least on level with the necessities of the job. for the same reason I never went for AFF and I highly doubt that I ever will.
I have no wish to take this any further in this thread, if you wish we can take this to pm's


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 1, 2013, 2:57 PM
Post #248 of 400 (2462 views)
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Re: [sinjin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...maybe he felt like...
You are correct. It was his decision.
Few recognize that and simply need to miss your point to argue about whether or not it was the best decision.


riddler  (D 10234)

Apr 1, 2013, 3:22 PM
Post #249 of 400 (2432 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
IMO the reason why neither of the reserves had time to inflate seems to be the biggest mystery in this tragic incident.

Everyone involved from Iceland, one instructor rig, one student(?) rig. I would like to know if the same rigger packed both reserves.


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 1, 2013, 4:36 PM
Post #250 of 400 (2343 views)
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Re: [marks2065] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
this hessitation could very well be part of the problem.

Agreed and that was the second point of what Mr. Sherman and I were talking about. I still believe that COULD have played a part in this, but I will await the reports to be made public. It's going to be hard to know with out seeing the gear in question. I, like Mr. Sherman believe this is not a one MFG problem but a issue on a number of them in the market place I think the body count is high enough now to lend some truth to that as a real possibility, IDK shit about it to prove or disprove anything, it's just an observation taken over a long period in time and seeing the changes in gear.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Apr 1, 2013, 4:38 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 2, 2013, 3:29 PM
Post #251 of 400 (7006 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

>He means that if you find yourself in freefall with nothing out and you are below your
>"decision altitude" then the correct thing to do is go straight for your reserve ripcord.

Agreed - but human nature means they will go for their mains.

When I teach the FJC I tell students that the 'right' thing to do when you are low is to go for their reserve - but the most important thing to do when you are low is to get a canopy over your head as soon as possible, and whatever makes that happen the fastest is the right answer. It is better to get a main out at 800 feet than a reserve out at 300, and given that your average student has opened his main several times, and touched it dozens of times in freefall - but has never even touched his reserve handle during the skydive - that is often the faster (if technically incorrect) option.


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Apr 2, 2013, 6:13 PM
Post #252 of 400 (6850 views)
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Re: [billvon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
but has never even touched his reserve handle during the skydive
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 2, 2013, 7:09 PM
Post #253 of 400 (6776 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
but has never even touched his reserve handle during the skydive
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.

Good idea, IMHO.


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 2, 2013, 7:47 PM
Post #254 of 400 (6740 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
but has never even touched his reserve handle during the skydive
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.

I was waiting to see if any experienced jumpers would mention that.

If I haven't jumped in 30 days or more I always do a solo 1st...touch all handles, do a style series then touch all handles, track until pull time.

Been doing that forever, wonder how many people have touched their handles in freefall?

The reserve handle isn't where it is once you've unpacked...KNOW where it is in freefall too!


SecondRound  (A License)

Apr 2, 2013, 10:05 PM
Post #255 of 400 (6648 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

+1 Another nugget of gold panned from the mass of info that goes out on this site. Makes it worth my time to read through it all. Thanks for reminding all of us of a Best Practice for safety.


evilivan  (D 100593)

Apr 3, 2013, 2:15 AM
Post #256 of 400 (6567 views)
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Re: [SecondRound] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not replying to anyone specifically.

Lots of discussion here about the instructor's "decision/s"; do we know for sure that he made any decisions - could he (they) have been incapacitated in some way during the jump?

I apologise if this is answered further up the thread (although not sure how it could be...); I kept up with all the posts until about page 7...


BMFin

Apr 3, 2013, 6:20 AM
Post #257 of 400 (6387 views)
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Re: [evilivan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Lots of discussion here about the instructor's "decision/s"; do we know for sure that he made any decisions - could he (they) have been incapacitated in some way during the jump?

I think it is because "The instructor tried to save the student and he died in the process, so he died a hero."

Read more: http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/...a-hero#ixzz2PPDJw7RE

Considering this piece of info, it suggests the instructor was trying to save the students life to the very end.

However, considering this comes from mainstream media, we shouldnt draw too much conclusions from it. So far it seems to be the most plausible scenario.


evilivan  (D 100593)

Apr 3, 2013, 9:29 AM
Post #258 of 400 (6189 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Lots of discussion here about the instructor's "decision/s"; do we know for sure that he made any decisions - could he (they) have been incapacitated in some way during the jump?

I think it is because "The instructor tried to save the student and he died in the process, so he died a hero."

Read more: http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/...a-hero#ixzz2PPDJw7RE

Considering this piece of info, it suggests the instructor was trying to save the students life to the very end.

However, considering this comes from mainstream media, we shouldnt draw too much conclusions from it. So far it seems to be the most plausible scenario.

Thanks. And thanks for the couple of PMs I got from people too...


carbonezone  (D 23582)

Apr 4, 2013, 8:47 AM
Post #259 of 400 (5539 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.
it is also a good idea to have your student look for and touch their EP handles when they are under canopy.
Tami C.


humanflite  (D 99999)

Apr 5, 2013, 3:15 PM
Post #260 of 400 (4888 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
but has never even touched his reserve handle during the skydive
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.[/reply

I'm not an instructor but I do this myself. I havent jumped since November due to family stuff but will be doing exactly this when I get back jumping in the next week or two.

I think the instructor clearly messed up, in a big way but his intentions were honourable and he gave his life trying to save his students, rightly or wrongly.

What does concern me most of all is how both cypres allegedly fired, but neither reserve deployed (in time?)
rip


(This post was edited by humanflite on Apr 5, 2013, 3:16 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 5, 2013, 5:54 PM
Post #261 of 400 (4792 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

>I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency
>jumps and progression after AFF.

Agreed, and I think that is an excellent thing for AFF grads and recurrency jumpers to practice. However, I do NOT recommend that students do that due to our experience with hip mounted ripcords. We had a spate of students pulling cutaway handles instead of ripcords that we thought was caused by two things:

1) the proximity of the cutaway handle to the ripcord especially when the harness was at its small setting

2) an emphasis in the plane on touching the cutaway handle

We stopped doing 2) (did one handles touch before getting in the plane, then everything else was ripcord touches in the plane) and we fixed 1) by going to BOC ripcords and eventually BOC throwouts. I have a feeling that doing a cutaway handle touch in freefall would have exacerbated that problem.

(Not disagreeing with you just explaining our experience.)


gregpso  (Student)

Apr 5, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #262 of 400 (4722 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert , not sure if it was a I or II. All compatible gear, in good condition with no size of compatibility issues.

Instructor jumping a newer Icon harness, with Smart 120 reserve, and 170ish Aerodyne main. Cypres Expert II. All compatible gear with no size or compatibility issues. His cutaway and reserve handles were pulled and cutaway handle was found close by.

Neither main was deployed, still in the containers and pilot chutes in their pouches.

There are no line burns, no indication of a collision or an entanglement.


As far as we can tell all the gear worked exactly as it should. Please knock off the wild speculating, especially if you have no idea what you are talking about. This is a far simpler situation.

correction, the Instructor's main was a Pilot 117, not 170.

Umm student having expert cypres WTF why not student one that fires at 1000 feet


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Apr 5, 2013, 7:46 PM
Post #263 of 400 (4709 views)
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Re: [gregpso] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Umm student having expert cypres WTF why not student one that fires at 1000 feet

Not sure without going back and reading the whole thread again but I think it was explained that the student rigs are also available for rent to licensed jumpers without their own gear. In that case maybe it was simpler to equip them all with expert cypres at the standard setting. Anybody?


ryoder  (D 6663)

Apr 5, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #264 of 400 (4701 views)
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Re: [gregpso] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Umm student having expert cypres WTF why not student one that fires at 1000 feet

A student CYPRES only fires at 1000' in the event of a partial mal. At terminal it fires at same altitude as the Expert version.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Apr 6, 2013, 7:47 AM
Post #265 of 400 (4494 views)
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Re: [gregpso] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

>Umm student having expert cypres WTF why not student one that fires at 1000 feet

It doesn't. Many schools use expert cypreses since they care only about ensuring a canopy during a no-pull or total mal situation.


champu  (D 28302)

Apr 7, 2013, 10:05 PM
Post #266 of 400 (3907 views)
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Re: [billvon] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Umm student having expert cypres WTF why not student one that fires at 1000 feet

It doesn't. Many schools use expert cypreses since they care only about ensuring a canopy during a no-pull or total mal situation.

Has there ever been a case where the student cypres fired during a partial mal (i.e. when an expert cypres would not have) and actually resulted in a save? Or has it only ever caused problems? I tried a handful of searches here but couldn't find anything.

...sorry in advance, this might be a better topic for general skydiving or gear and rigging.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 8, 2013, 5:21 AM
Post #267 of 400 (3678 views)
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Re: [champu] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Has there ever been a case where the student cypres fired during a partial mal (i.e. when an expert cypres would not have) and actually resulted in a save? Or has it only ever caused problems? I tried a handful of searches here but couldn't find anything.

...sorry in advance, this might be a better topic for general skydiving or gear and rigging.

This page from Cypres claims one student cypres save under a spinning malfunction. There may well be others but this is what I found on a quick search.


champu  (D 28302)

Apr 8, 2013, 10:39 AM
Post #268 of 400 (3439 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Has there ever been a case where the student cypres fired during a partial mal (i.e. when an expert cypres would not have) and actually resulted in a save? Or has it only ever caused problems? I tried a handful of searches here but couldn't find anything.

...sorry in advance, this might be a better topic for general skydiving or gear and rigging.

This page from Cypres claims one student cypres save under a spinning malfunction. There may well be others but this is what I found on a quick search.

I interpreted that to mean she got into a spin in freefall, so not a case where a student cypres made the difference. Thanks for the link though as I went back and looked through the list and I found two instances of a freefall jump where the person deployed unstable and had a student cypres fire while partially entangled with their main (11 May 2008 and Sept 1994.) I also found 7 instances where an unstable static-line or IAD exit resulted in a jumper/main entanglement and a student cypres fire (27 Feb 2000, 11 July 1999, 17 July 1999, 13 March 1999, 21 Aug 1997, Aug 1993, and Aug 1992.) There were also a few instances where it says there was a cutaway with no reserve pull / rsl not present or failed, but it's unclear if the student version made the difference or not.

So, in summary, using a Student Cypres or an Expert Cypres for students doesn't matter all that much in practice, and is a more important consideration for static-line/IAD jumps. Also, there's no reason to believe it would have made any difference in this incident.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Apr 8, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #269 of 400 (3411 views)
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Re: [champu] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
there's no reason to believe it would have made any difference in this incident.

Since there was no main deployed, and there was nothing out - meaning they were both in complete unfettered freefall... ...it wouldn't.


irishrigger  (D 297)

Apr 8, 2013, 11:12 AM
Post #270 of 400 (3382 views)
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Re: [champu] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi there,

yes there has been a case in ireland. i think he just listed the wrong incident on that page.
AFF student span out of control, pulled at 8k and got his foot wraped around lines and he is hanging up side down in the harness with a spinning main. it was a student CYPRES and it fired and the reserve opened cleanly. he landed in trees, which softend the impact in my opinion.
so the cypres saved this guy in my eyes, i do not believe he would have survived the impact onder his main, so the cypres did what it was supposed to do.

my 2 cents

rodger


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Apr 9, 2013, 8:44 AM
Post #271 of 400 (2903 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
but has never even touched his reserve handle during the skydive
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.

Good idea, IMHO.

I totally agree and I think I'll add that to my student task list for solo/coach jumps.


bfilak23  (C 38818)

Apr 9, 2013, 9:04 AM
Post #272 of 400 (2878 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I teach/recommend people practice 3 handle touches in freefall as part of recurrency jumps and progression after AFF. Basically, stable exit, touch all 3 in the normal order, then on to other stuff.

I totally agree and I think I'll add that to my student task list for solo/coach jumps.

I would also recommend adding cutaway and reserve handle touches under canopy. Since locations may change between free fall and under canopy. I know for myself they are generally a little higher up.




LSD3rd  (A 11142)

Apr 9, 2013, 8:37 PM
Post #274 of 400 (2415 views)
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Re: [bfilak23] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

How about touching handles in freefall. Pretend you have a pilot chute in tow. This way you get use to flying with your arms close to your chest, How about having your student close their eyes and find his or her handles.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 10, 2013, 11:22 AM
Post #275 of 400 (2051 views)
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Re: [LSD3rd] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How about having your student close their eyes and find his or her handles.
IMO, bad ide and here's why I say that:

I teach LOOK for your handles. I do not want them fumbling around trying to find what's right there in their face, so to speak. If you can't see them, then you are gonna have to fumble around for them anyway.

OTOH, it might not be a bad idea IF you could drill look first and then teach ALL the proper places to fumble around in. I see a problem with this. YMMV

Here's me...

ME: Touch your handles in the order you would normally use them.
STOP! You didn't look first. Do it again.
LaughLaugh


billeisele  (A 5643)

Apr 10, 2013, 7:00 PM
Post #276 of 400 (4924 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How about having your student close their eyes and find his or her handles.
IMO, bad ide and here's why I say that:

I teach LOOK for your handles. I do not want them fumbling around trying to find what's right there in their face, so to speak. If you can't see them, then you are gonna have to fumble around for them anyway.

OTOH, it might not be a bad idea IF you could drill look first and then teach ALL the proper places to fumble around in. I see a problem with this. YMMV

Here's me...

ME: Touch your handles in the order you would normally use them.
STOP! You didn't look first. Do it again.
LaughLaugh

Amen. It's much easier to pull what you are looking at. Years ago I knew a girl that spent the rest of her life tugging on her harness. If she had only looked....


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Apr 13, 2013, 8:47 PM
Post #277 of 400 (4431 views)
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Re: [bfilak23] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

"... I would also recommend adding cutaway and reserve handle touches under canopy. Since locations may change between free fall and under canopy. I know for myself they are generally a little higher up.
.....................................................................................

Similarly, when I jump (strapped on the front) as a Tandem Examiner, I insist that aspiring TIs talk their way through patting all their handles shortly after opening.
Leading by example, I usually do the same handle patting when jumping with real tandem students.


tsf

Apr 14, 2013, 12:47 AM
Post #278 of 400 (4359 views)
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Re: [billeisele] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

So, correct me if I'm wrong, it's confirmed that the instructor tried to save the student and it's confirmed that both AADs did fire. And what is to be determined is:

1. What altitude the AADs fired
2. Why the reserves did not fully inflate prior to impact
3. What happened to the student that required the instructor to save him

I'm not too familiar with media coverage of these types of events--is there a chance the public will eventually have access to the video (or at least the DZO/experienced skydiver to clarify what really happened)? Are their AADs sent to Airtec to collect operation data, and is this data ever made available to the public (or does it get privately filed away with the police report)?


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Apr 14, 2013, 7:31 AM
Post #279 of 400 (4215 views)
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Re: [tsf] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In general everyone sits around and says, "Lets stop speculating and wait for the report to come out". The report never comes out and then there is a new incident and everyone talks about that one.


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Apr 14, 2013, 8:30 AM
Post #280 of 400 (4177 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't need speculation or a report to know one thing...this double fatality should have been, at worst, a single and possibly not a fatality at all.

The instructor made a mistake that killed him and possibly his student. That is one thing that we can all learn from.

Reports from any agency or manufacturer will not change the fact that a lapse in judgement resulted in this loss.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Apr 14, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #281 of 400 (4206 views)
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Re: [CSpenceFLY] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In general everyone sits around and says, "Lets stop speculating and wait for the report to come out". The report never comes out and then there is a new incident and everyone talks about that one.
I would hope by now some skydiver capable of interpreting the video (instructor/rigger/DZO) has seen it and can give us some answers to many of the questions raised here. Ditto for the AAD readouts. (Vigil had the AAD data from the recent premature fire incident circulating within days). I read that the police were not letting folks from z-hills look at the video ~ 2 weeks ago, but whatever reasons they were using to justify that can't possibly still be valid. Surely someone can provide some information about what happened based on the data available.

This is not an ordinary incident (if there is such a thing). If someone hooks it in, the lesson is likely to be the same one repeatedly reinforced about every 2 months or so. Here the only thing that is obvious is "Don't rely on your AAD", but that is not really satisfactory. Every jumper with an AAD would like to know the circumstances that resulted in two activations above the flat landscape of florida yet ended with two fatalities. Maybe something can be done (change activation altitudes, improve reserve container deployment criteria, AAD firmware changes to detect and adjust if ff speed is higher than average, etc.) Or maybe this was just an exceptionally rare double outlier in a system that is otherwise reasonably safe. It would be a great service to the sport if someone that has additional information would come forward and let us know.


CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

Apr 14, 2013, 11:19 AM
Post #282 of 400 (4116 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In general everyone sits around and says, "Lets stop speculating and wait for the report to come out". The report never comes out and then there is a new incident and everyone talks about that one.
I would hope by now some skydiver capable of interpreting the video (instructor/rigger/DZO) has seen it and can give us some answers to many of the questions raised here. Ditto for the AAD readouts. (Vigil had the AAD data from the recent premature fire incident circulating within days). I read that the police were not letting folks from z-hills look at the video ~ 2 weeks ago, but whatever reasons they were using to justify that can't possibly still be valid. Surely someone can provide some information about what happened based on the data available.

This is not an ordinary incident (if there is such a thing). If someone hooks it in, the lesson is likely to be the same one repeatedly reinforced about every 2 months or so. Here the only thing that is obvious is "Don't rely on your AAD", but that is not really satisfactory. Every jumper with an AAD would like to know the circumstances that resulted in two activations above the flat landscape of florida yet ended with two fatalities. Maybe something can be done (change activation altitudes, improve reserve container deployment criteria, AAD firmware changes to detect and adjust if ff speed is higher than average, etc.) Or maybe this was just an exceptionally rare double outlier in a system that is otherwise reasonably safe. It would be a great service to the sport if someone that has additional information would come forward and let us know.


Yes it would.


nigel99  (D 1)

Apr 14, 2013, 4:20 PM
Post #283 of 400 (3962 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In general everyone sits around and says, "Lets stop speculating and wait for the report to come out". The report never comes out and then there is a new incident and everyone talks about that one.
I would hope by now some skydiver capable of interpreting the video (instructor/rigger/DZO) has seen it and can give us some answers to many of the questions raised here. Ditto for the AAD readouts. (Vigil had the AAD data from the recent premature fire incident circulating within days). I read that the police were not letting folks from z-hills look at the video ~ 2 weeks ago, but whatever reasons they were using to justify that can't possibly still be valid. Surely someone can provide some information about what happened based on the data available.

This is not an ordinary incident (if there is such a thing). If someone hooks it in, the lesson is likely to be the same one repeatedly reinforced about every 2 months or so. Here the only thing that is obvious is "Don't rely on your AAD", but that is not really satisfactory. Every jumper with an AAD would like to know the circumstances that resulted in two activations above the flat landscape of florida yet ended with two fatalities. Maybe something can be done (change activation altitudes, improve reserve container deployment criteria, AAD firmware changes to detect and adjust if ff speed is higher than average, etc.) Or maybe this was just an exceptionally rare double outlier in a system that is otherwise reasonably safe. It would be a great service to the sport if someone that has additional information would come forward and let us know.

Good post Peter, sums it up nicely.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 15, 2013, 8:10 AM
Post #284 of 400 (3628 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Great points everyone!

I want to add that probability wize many have pointed out that this is (tatistically) this is a rare event,...

numbers wise it is not a rare event, I just looks that way, as far as probability, the statistical chances are actually very large,this means it could happen again!


This forum is to learn from,..I want to add ,just stating it a little differently, that as of yet we have learned nothing from ths incident!


I want to point out what we call the "Batting 300" effect.

Which is statistically means that when you are batting 300 your average generally has no other place to go other than down!

The effort required to then bat 300, (this is a meataphore to safety) is almost 1000 times greater. Yes I know that many of you will find the effort required to maintain a safe sport, when it is alreaddy relativly safe Unsure, is such a large number, but that is what it takes to maintain a high average. It kind of like those workplace safety signs, you know th ones? The ones tha say: "We (I) haven't had an accident in X number of days."
As each day passes the probabilty of something happening increases!!!

The problem with this thread is that as each day passs no one has done anything to increase safety!!

There have been no suggestions or reccomondaions to increase safety! There have been a lot of well intentioned and excllent infrences!!!Smile From many individual,...


But what are you going to do tommoro that you have learned from this that you are going to use and implemant in your daily skydiving activities???

What are you actually, physically, going to do???


On a side note I have heard back re: My suggestion regarding MANDATORY demonstration of instability and recovery in a wind tunnel from a couple of Affi's, weather they actually start doing this is yet to be seen! Kudos to yo that have actually and peersonally made changes, and not just thinking about it! There is a difference between just thinking about something as compared with physically making statments out loud and or professing such activity in front of other people! Kind of like marrage,...we have some people that sneak away and get married, or just live toghthether, or on the other hand we have those that profess their love infront of society. One is very easy to do and the divorce rate reflects the success rate, the other has a lower divorce rate, albit still high,... but lower!
(Don't kill me with the "I know one instance" phenomenon.)

The point is actually doing something is more effective than just talking about it!


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Apr 15, 2013, 8:58 AM)


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 15, 2013, 8:45 AM
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In reply to:
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

I will NOT chase another skydiver below my hard deck. How's that for concrete action to prevent a fatality?

MINE!

jon


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 15, 2013, 9:00 AM
Post #286 of 400 (3564 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
There have been no suggestions or reccomondaions to increase safety! There have been a lot of well intentioned and excllent infrences!!! From many individual,...

Come on Chris, lighten up. Therre is pleanty of effort being expended to solve this problem.
The BPA has issued a procedure for testing rigs for extraction effort. This effort is being picked up by several DZs in Europe and they are starting to do inspections.

However, this is not to say that more effort could not be expended. It would be nice if USPA and PIA could get on board and do something other than discuss "Ram Air Normenclature" while 2 of our friends are in the ground at Z-hills and one of them is wearing a rig manufactured by the power controling the committee, and this isn't the first one. There have been five according to my count.

There are 8 rigs which have demonstrated this problem. What do the 8 rigs have in common. The riggers know. Most of them failed with the main closed. The problem stops with the riggers. If that reserve bag won't come out with less than 18 pounds I would not pack it and neither should you.

The solution is up to us!


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 15, 2013, 9:15 AM
Post #287 of 400 (3539 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm trying to lighten up, no one listens!

We had this same debate back in the 70s' :
"What is safer, rounds or or squares?"

Remember?

For those of you that we not there rounds are always safer, as far as opening! Squares will get you there and avoid landing incidents...as squares increased in popularity, well we made them smaller didn't we???

Yes the riggers have influence, but those nice vids of approaching at 50 60 mph and those long swoops have more influence!

Let's make mini risers, to what end, so we can swoop at .05 mph faster???

And you know damm well that no one is listening about extraction forces, you know that when a container leaves the factory floor it is now in the hands of the user and "they" have consitently demonstated "gear" ignorance by stuffing too much into the bags! Again and again soo many riggers give the customer what they want....

And ya making triangular containers, that by their very design hold stuff in them, just stupid, really, just stupid! No other way to describe that! Unsure


You remind me of Winston:

"Never, Never, Never Quit - Winston Churchill"

Thank God you don't quit!!, you are an ispiration!
Smile
C


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Apr 15, 2013, 9:25 AM
Post #288 of 400 (3530 views)
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In reply to:
Smile
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

My take, based on current knowledge of this incident, is that the reserves, activated by AADs, failed to inflate before impact because of:
a) Excessively high speed of the pair, shortening the time between activation and impact.
b) Possible inaccurate activation altitude sensing by the AADs due to the airflow dynamics of the coupled pair in freefall.
c) Possible delay of pilot chutes achieving maximum pull due to airflow burble caused by the coupled pair in freefall.

It seems very unlikely that two reserves, packed by two different riggers, would both have excessive free bag extraction forces, inadequate pilot chutes or other gear-related failures that have been postulated here.

Based on what I personally think of this incident, my action on future jumps will not really change. I will know now that a tumbling 2-way, passing through AAD firing altitude, has a less than optimum chance of having their reserves open in time. Since I don't do student training, this shouldn't affect me much. I do, however, make a fair amount of RW jumps. I can envision the possibility of having to assist a disabled friend in freefall. I know now that getting to AAD-related altitudes in this situation may be even more hazardous than I might have thought. Pretty unlikely scenario, I know. But all info gleaned from any accident should go into your brain because in this sport you need as much knowledge powering your decision-making as possible.

Future findings in this incident may alter our understanding of it. As of now, however, this is my personal take.

Kevin K.


devildog  (C 40302)

Apr 15, 2013, 4:53 PM
Post #289 of 400 (3252 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

I will NOT chase another skydiver below my hard deck. How's that for concrete action to prevent a fatality?

MINE!

jon

I hope if/when I get my AFFI rating, I keep that forever drilled in my head. As a coach, is pretty easy to say, "I'm not touching you" and turn and burn when I'm supposed to and trust their training kicks in at some point.


Premier Nigel  (D 99999)

Apr 16, 2013, 5:42 AM
Post #290 of 400 (2962 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
There have been no suggestions or reccomondaions to increase safety! There have been a lot of well intentioned and excllent infrences!!! From many individual,...

Come on Chris, lighten up. Therre is pleanty of effort being expended to solve this problem.
The BPA has issued a procedure for testing rigs for extraction effort. This effort is being picked up by several DZs in Europe and they are starting to do inspections.

However, this is not to say that more effort could not be expended. It would be nice if USPA and PIA could get on board and do something other than discuss "Ram Air Normenclature" while 2 of our friends are in the ground at Z-hills and one of them is wearing a rig manufactured by the power controling the committee, and this isn't the first one. There have been five according to my count.

There are 8 rigs which have demonstrated this problem. What do the 8 rigs have in common. The riggers know. Most of them failed with the main closed. The problem stops with the riggers. If that reserve bag won't come out with less than 18 pounds I would not pack it and neither should you.

The solution is up to us!

John,

Your statement in bold caught my attention....For some container/reserve configurations (Eg Optimum 143 in an MT) Mirage states 'extremely tight. Expert rigger required' or words to that effect.

To my inexpert eyes, it seems intuitive a very tightly fitting reserve is going to need more force to get the bag out of the tray, than a looser fitting one...

As both my containers are thus, I'm concerned the reserves won't extract when needed. Mirage tells me not to worry, but I haven't gotten a reply to my request for the data supporting that reassurance.

Do you know different? And if so, shouldn't the info be shared with the wider community?

ATB,

Nigel


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 16, 2013, 7:53 AM
Post #291 of 400 (2858 views)
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Re: [Nigel] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
To my inexpert eyes, it seems intuitive a very tightly fitting reserve is going to need more force to get the bag out of the tray, than a looser fitting one...

Not necessarely. There are containers out there which can be stuffed as tight as you can get it and it will not increase the extraction force. That is why we need to go by the numbers.

18 pounds represents what the best pilot chute will do at 1 second after cutaway. If the extraction is greater than that at that point then you will probably not meet the TSO requirements as you only have 2 seconds left and you don't have your bag out of the container. This in and of itself will probably just give you a longer deployment after cutaway which should be up high.

However: This is indicative of how fast the canopy will deploy at terminal. If is will not deploy in 300 feet after a cutaway it sure will not deploy in 300 feet at terminal. The time is about the same but the distance is greater because of the speed.

In all fairness I am not aware of any problems with your containers in the past. However, I don't care what kind of container it is, it must be checked by your rigger for extraction force. If you do find extraction force greater than 18 pounds then you should get a letter from your manufacturer acknowledging the excessive force and certifying the pilot chute as able to meet them.


jumpwally  (D License)

Apr 16, 2013, 9:02 AM
Post #292 of 400 (2790 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

..as usual ,great advice. Thanks John


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 16, 2013, 12:14 PM
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Amongst the available options, I'm going with C.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Apr 16, 2013, 2:32 PM
Post #294 of 400 (2549 views)
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Re: [Nigel] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....it seems intuitive a very tightly fitting reserve is going to need more force to get the bag out of the tray, than a looser fitting one...

I don't think you can make that assumption. How snug the reserve bag fits in the container after the pin is pulled and the flaps are free has everything to do with the design of the container.

But you already know that.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Apr 16, 2013, 6:18 PM
Post #295 of 400 (2404 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

here have been no suggestions or reccomondaions to increase safety!

But what are you going to do tommoro that you have learned from this that you are going to use and implemant in your daily skydiving activities???

What are you actually, physically, going to do???
In reply to:
I'm going to beat up my coach candidates even harder about their hard-deck and what it means with a non-responsive student
I'm never going to bust my hard deck chasing a student.
I'm never going to believe that my job as an AFFI is to save someone's life. That's their job and I have to make sure they know it.
I'm going to hope that what I've heard/surmised about this is not really true (that the actions of the AFFI probably contributed to the death of this student and himself. that he was not a hero.), but go forward with what I do and teach as if it was.
All the focus on ADD's, pilot chute drag, tight rigs, is just a distraction from what happened here.
An instructor made a mistake. He paid for it with his life, Maybe his student's life.


Premier Nigel  (D 99999)

Apr 17, 2013, 7:11 AM
Post #296 of 400 (2125 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
To my inexpert eyes, it seems intuitive a very tightly fitting reserve is going to need more force to get the bag out of the tray, than a looser fitting one...

Not necessarely. There are containers out there which can be stuffed as tight as you can get it and it will not increase the extraction force. That is why we need to go by the numbers.

18 pounds represents what the best pilot chute will do at 1 second after cutaway. If the extraction is greater than that at that point then you will probably not meet the TSO requirements as you only have 2 seconds left and you don't have your bag out of the container. This in and of itself will probably just give you a longer deployment after cutaway which should be up high.

However: This is indicative of how fast the canopy will deploy at terminal. If is will not deploy in 300 feet after a cutaway it sure will not deploy in 300 feet at terminal. The time is about the same but the distance is greater because of the speed.

In all fairness I am not aware of any problems with your containers in the past. However, I don't care what kind of container it is, it must be checked by your rigger for extraction force. If you do find extraction force greater than 18 pounds then you should get a letter from your manufacturer acknowledging the excessive force and certifying the pilot chute as able to meet them.[/reply

JohnSherman, Chukakers,

Thank you both for your answers.

I'm reassured, but will have the extraction force tested nonetheless. I'm guessing this is a fairly straightforward procedure, using a fish scale (the springy, not the keratin kind).
Quote:
ATB,

Nigel


drjump  (D 2785)

Apr 17, 2013, 7:48 AM
Post #297 of 400 (2092 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well written Kevin. Best response yet.


likearock  (D 24640)

Apr 17, 2013, 11:02 AM
Post #298 of 400 (1947 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Smile
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

My take, based on current knowledge of this incident, is that the reserves, activated by AADs, failed to inflate before impact because of:
a) Excessively high speed of the pair, shortening the time between activation and impact.
b) Possible inaccurate activation altitude sensing by the AADs due to the airflow dynamics of the coupled pair in freefall.
c) Possible delay of pilot chutes achieving maximum pull due to airflow burble caused by the coupled pair in freefall.

It seems very unlikely that two reserves, packed by two different riggers, would both have excessive free bag extraction forces, inadequate pilot chutes or other gear-related failures that have been postulated here.

Based on what I personally think of this incident, my action on future jumps will not really change. I will know now that a tumbling 2-way, passing through AAD firing altitude, has a less than optimum chance of having their reserves open in time. Since I don't do student training, this shouldn't affect me much. I do, however, make a fair amount of RW jumps. I can envision the possibility of having to assist a disabled friend in freefall. I know now that getting to AAD-related altitudes in this situation may be even more hazardous than I might have thought. Pretty unlikely scenario, I know. But all info gleaned from any accident should go into your brain because in this sport you need as much knowledge powering your decision-making as possible.

Future findings in this incident may alter our understanding of it. As of now, however, this is my personal take.

Kevin K.

Kevin, your analysis seems very plausible. You realize of course the implication that the instructor's "heroism" in pursuing the student below the hard deck might have been precisely what killed them both.


devildog  (C 40302)

Apr 17, 2013, 12:50 PM
Post #299 of 400 (1863 views)
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Re: [likearock] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a bit of a general Q, but pertains: Will the video ever be released? Or are videos for incidents like this never released? Or does it take a FOIA request, or...?


format  (B 15348)

Apr 17, 2013, 1:52 PM
Post #300 of 400 (1803 views)
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Re: [likearock] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
your analysis seems very plausible. You realize of course the implication that the instructor's "heroism" in pursuing the student below the hard deck might have been precisely what killed them both.
Well, I find his analysis very plausible too.
And I find instructor pursuing the student - pure heroism (without quotes).

Go figure that.


likearock  (D 24640)

Apr 18, 2013, 7:29 AM
Post #301 of 400 (3559 views)
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Re: [format] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
your analysis seems very plausible. You realize of course the implication that the instructor's "heroism" in pursuing the student below the hard deck might have been precisely what killed them both.
Well, I find his analysis very plausible too.
And I find instructor pursuing the student - pure heroism (without quotes).

Go figure that.

Be that as it may if his action, however you characterize it, was the decisive factor in both fatalities it should be called out as such.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Apr 18, 2013, 10:48 AM
Post #302 of 400 (3436 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

or option d) both canopies were extracted from the container, the freebags came off, but the two canopies interfered with eithers ability to generate any forward speed/inflate properly even if they did not become entangled
In reply to:
In reply to:
Smile
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

My take, based on current knowledge of this incident, is that the reserves, activated by AADs, failed to inflate before impact because of:
a) Excessively high speed of the pair, shortening the time between activation and impact.
b) Possible inaccurate activation altitude sensing by the AADs due to the airflow dynamics of the coupled pair in freefall.
c) Possible delay of pilot chutes achieving maximum pull due to airflow burble caused by the coupled pair in freefall.

It seems very unlikely that two reserves, packed by two different riggers, would both have excessive free bag extraction forces, inadequate pilot chutes or other gear-related failures that have been postulated here.

Based on what I personally think of this incident, my action on future jumps will not really change. I will know now that a tumbling 2-way, passing through AAD firing altitude, has a less than optimum chance of having their reserves open in time. Since I don't do student training, this shouldn't affect me much. I do, however, make a fair amount of RW jumps. I can envision the possibility of having to assist a disabled friend in freefall. I know now that getting to AAD-related altitudes in this situation may be even more hazardous than I might have thought. Pretty unlikely scenario, I know. But all info gleaned from any accident should go into your brain because in this sport you need as much knowledge powering your decision-making as possible.

Future findings in this incident may alter our understanding of it. As of now, however, this is my personal take.

Kevin K.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Apr 18, 2013, 3:22 PM
Post #303 of 400 (3301 views)
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Re: [likearock] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Kevin, your analysis seems very plausible. You realize of course the implication that the instructor's "heroism" in pursuing the student below the hard deck might have been precisely what killed them both.
-----------------------------------------

Yes, in hindsight, that seems to be the case. But, you can only act on the best info that you have at the time. I think that, at the time of this incident, the Instructor thought, as did a lot of us, that, even though he was hanging it out a bit too far, the AAD would back him up in this extreme low pull. I don't think anyone would argue that his heart was in the right place and he went beyond the call of duty to his friend and student. But, yes, in the final analysis, the Student's AAD may well have saved him (the Student) without the airflow perturbation caused by the two bodies if the Instructor had gotten the f- out of there via pilotchute.

The lessons of skydiving are written in the blood of our friends. Those who do not heed these lessons are destined to repeat them. I've always felt that there's no dishonor in falling victim to a truly unique accident. But to screw up in a way that that has been fatal many times before - well, that's just dumb.

It may be a million jumps before something just like this happens again. But now we know what can happen. We all know the price for Blue Skies.

Kevin K.


mark  (D 6108)

Apr 18, 2013, 5:40 PM
Post #304 of 400 (3219 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It may be a million jumps before something just like this happens again. But now we know what can happen.

Kevin K.

The thing is, it has already happened before, with similar results.

Mark


SkydiverShawn  (C 40994)

Apr 18, 2013, 6:03 PM
Post #305 of 400 (3199 views)
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Re: [mark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It may be a million jumps before something just like this happens again. But now we know what can happen.

Kevin K.

The thing is, it has already happened before, with similar results.

Mark

And what have we learned? Well, what did some of us learn?


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Apr 19, 2013, 9:34 AM
Post #306 of 400 (2932 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm having a real hard time with this airflow perturbation or jumpers in proximity causing reserve PC hesitation. There are many cases of multiple jumpers in freefall together, both 4-way RW and 2-way freefly where multiple AADs went off at the same time, with an embarrassing, but safe outcome. There's even video of some of it (a video of a FF pair dual AAD deployment from the late 90s is the first one that comes to mind). I'm not saying it's OK to go low and have a team's AADs save the team, but it has happened.

I also think there's still a lot of speculation going on by those who haven't seen the video.

Speaking of video and the "will we ever see the video" question: The video is copyright the instructor (unless there's a documented agreement stating otherwise). That means it passes to his heirs via his estate. It's up to them whether it gets published - not the police/FAA.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 19, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #307 of 400 (2926 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I also think there's still a lot of speculation going on by those who haven't seen the video.

Yes, unfortunately that is pretty much all we have in terms of knowing why the reserves did not deploy in time.


jonstark  (D 8298)

Apr 19, 2013, 2:05 PM
Post #308 of 400 (2771 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Speaking of video and the "will we ever see the video" question: The video is copyright the instructor (unless there's a documented agreement stating otherwise). That means it passes to his heirs via his estate. It's up to them whether it gets published - not the police/FAA.

Those heirs have directed, through their embassy and our State Department, that the video is never to be released.

jon


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 19, 2013, 2:11 PM
Post #309 of 400 (2763 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Speaking of video and the "will we ever see the video" question: The video is copyright the instructor (unless there's a documented agreement stating otherwise). That means it passes to his heirs via his estate. It's up to them whether it gets published - not the police/FAA.

Those heirs have directed, through their embassy and our State Department, that the video is never to be released. jon

How did you come to learn that?


Divalent  (C 40494)

Apr 19, 2013, 2:44 PM
Post #310 of 400 (2728 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Speaking of video and the "will we ever see the video" question: The video is copyright the instructor (unless there's a documented agreement stating otherwise). That means it passes to his heirs via his estate. It's up to them whether it gets published - not the police/FAA.

Those heirs have directed, through their embassy and our State Department, that the video is never to be released.

jon

That does not prevent *anyone* who has seen the video from describing what it shows in as much detail as necessary to give us some insight into the many questions this dual fatality has raised.

[And regarding copyright, fair use would cover a pretty extensive release of the relevant segments.]


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 22, 2013, 5:08 AM
Post #311 of 400 (2185 views)
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Re: [jonstark] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

I will NOT chase another skydiver below my hard deck. How's that for concrete action to prevent a fatality?

MINE!

jon
Some of us are trying to make a difference to safety by doing something about it. Unfortunately there are many who don't want to take notice of tests and recommendations especially if it involves major changes to equipment or practices. It has been said that this incident was unlikely to have been caused by retarded reserve deployment because of the different equipment involved.

What if I told you that my two years of research and testing indicates that under certain circumstances most modern containers could fail to open in time. It is not the failure of the equipment to perform as we would expect that is rare it is the circumstances when we need it to perform that is very rare. For what ever reason these two unfortunate people found themselves in the situation they did, the equipment that should have saved them failed to do so. I can see no reason for two AAD's to activate at the same (to Low) altitude these things are well proven to be accurate to within probably better than 50ft in real use. The way the rigs are packed however, having the main still in place, excessive reserve free bag extraction force, the reserve being a very tight fit and the reserve closing loop length to long can easily conspire to delay the opening by the one second you don't have to spare. At terminal AAD firing height is 3.5 seconds from impact if you are down to 2.5 seconds then there is every chance you will reach the planet at line stretch. There is no better confirmation of this than Air-tech have started to distribute the updated Cypress 2. I believe this allows you to increase activation height up to 9 100ft increments. Bill booth is on record stating all opening, decision and activation heights should be raised. And I have just managed to get an Approved method of opening reserves at the repack cycle accepted by the BPA in the UK to test and monitor the opening performance of reserve containers. At the very least other factors that may be common to both victims should be considered like the way the containers were packed, length of loops, who packed them etc. When there is an incident the thing to do is look for the common factors as they will point to causes even if they are only contributory.

There are many people out there who know about these problems but because of litigation or financial implications are in denial. As this thread allows speculation it is time that these possibility's are firmly on the table as the most obvious cause because these issues are real and will still exist even if it turned out that some other factor influenced the outcome in this case.

Of course it is also good to discuss what can be done to avoid getting into this type of situation in the first place but I doubt anyone gets there on purpose so if it happened to you would you want to know that your equipment is capable of saving you?


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 22, 2013, 7:14 AM
Post #312 of 400 (2092 views)
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's a mistake to assume the same cause was the reason for both failures to deploy.

I could be mistaken but the video may be subject to a FOIA request if it's a part of an investigation.


adamhildreth  (C 110471)

Apr 22, 2013, 8:00 AM
Post #313 of 400 (2054 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

I will NOT chase another skydiver below my hard deck. How's that for concrete action to prevent a fatality?

MINE!

jon
Some of us are trying to make a difference to safety by doing something about it. Unfortunately there are many who don't want to take notice of tests and recommendations especially if it involves major changes to equipment or practices. It has been said that this incident was unlikely to have been caused by retarded reserve deployment because of the different equipment involved.

What if I told you that my two years of research and testing indicates that under certain circumstances most modern containers could fail to open in time. It is not the failure of the equipment to perform as we would expect that is rare it is the circumstances when we need it to perform that is very rare. For what ever reason these two unfortunate people found themselves in the situation they did, the equipment that should have saved them failed to do so. I can see no reason for two AAD's to activate at the same (to Low) altitude these things are well proven to be accurate to within probably better than 50ft in real use. The way the rigs are packed however, having the main still in place, excessive reserve free bag extraction force, the reserve being a very tight fit and the reserve closing loop length to long can easily conspire to delay the opening by the one second you don't have to spare. At terminal AAD firing height is 3.5 seconds from impact if you are down to 2.5 seconds then there is every chance you will reach the planet at line stretch. There is no better confirmation of this than Air-tech have started to distribute the updated Cypress 2. I believe this allows you to increase activation height up to 9 100ft increments. Bill booth is on record stating all opening, decision and activation heights should be raised. And I have just managed to get an Approved method of opening reserves at the repack cycle accepted by the BPA in the UK to test and monitor the opening performance of reserve containers. At the very least other factors that may be common to both victims should be considered like the way the containers were packed, length of loops, who packed them etc. When there is an incident the thing to do is look for the common factors as they will point to causes even if they are only contributory.

There are many people out there who know about these problems but because of litigation or financial implications are in denial. As this thread allows speculation it is time that these possibility's are firmly on the table as the most obvious cause because these issues are real and will still exist even if it turned out that some other factor influenced the outcome in this case.

Of course it is also good to discuss what can be done to avoid getting into this type of situation in the first place but I doubt anyone gets there on purpose so if it happened to you would you want to know that your equipment is capable of saving you?

Do you have the results of the test?


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Apr 22, 2013, 8:29 AM
Post #314 of 400 (2015 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a mistake to assume the same cause was the reason for both failures to deploy.
For sure.

In reply to:
I could be mistaken but the video may be subject to a FOIA request if it's a part of an investigation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/..._Act_(United_States)
"The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) is a federal freedom of information law that allows for the full or partial disclosure of previously unreleased information and documents controlled by the United States government."
1. The official investigators of this incident have the video.
2. It's debatable as to what "controlled by" means. Possession? Copyright holder? In the interest of public safety? Either way, once the investigation is complete, control should pass to the heirs.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 22, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #315 of 400 (1964 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Great post Paul. Let me add:

I fail to understand why there is so much conversation about superfluous aspects of this problem and no discussion about the root cause. Not even an attempt to acknowledge, by most jumpers, that this is plainly and simply a failure of the parachute assemblies. There are seems to be only a few perceptive individuals who understand this.

It is as simple as this: The reserve failed to open at terminal from 750 +/- feet. The TSO requires them to open in 300 feet to qualify. I don’t care why they failed, they failed. There have now been 18 of them.
They didn’t fail because of burble; they didn’t fail because of the proximity of the jumping pair. They failed because they (the systems) are defective. That’s right I said defective.

I hear people talk about raising the deployment altitudes. This is fine for mains but reserves don’t take longer to open today than they did yesterday or at least they shouldn’t. The requirements are the same as they have always been. Reserves are required to open in no more than 300 feet. If they don’t they are defective. I personally believe the problem is not with the canopy but with the systems.

In all 18 occurrences the investigators have neglected to TEST the failed rigs. They look at them and through their tunnel vision and declare “everything is in order”, rigs in date, components are compatible, etc. I don’t know of an investigator who is qualified to make such a sweeping statement; “no one”. How about testing the failed rigs? I have personally spoken to several of these investigators suggesting this but nothing to date. It has yet to be done. One case where similarity testing (testing on a similar rig) was performed the similar rig failed. Where is that report? In another incident where the reserve failed to extract and was “Hand Deployed” the rig was checked to find extraordinarily high extraction effort. Additionally, 7 of the 8 rigs involved in the 18 failures had the main container full; all had “Trough” riser covers. This has a tendency to put pressure on the top of the reserve container as the rig is tightened into place on the wearers back.

This is not a new problem. It has been going on for over 20 years. Before AAD’s we just said “he pulled his reserve too low”. Now we have proof to show that they didn’t pull too low, that the reserve failed to open. The AAD activation altitude was selected for it’s 2.5 to 1 safety margin. 300 feet required, times 2.5 equals 750 feet. Plenty of time for the reserve to work within it’s required parameters.

There is a misunderstanding among some of the manufacturers as to the requirement of the cutaway tests. I believe that some may have used this misunderstanding for their certification. It has to do with cutaways. With an RSL, which is required on half of the tests, you must deploy within 3 second or 300 feet maximum. Without the RSL you may fall no more than 2 seconds after release before activating the ripcord at which time the reserve must deploy in 3 seconds or 300 feet from pack opening altitude. This 2 additional seconds gives time for more Dynamic Pressure to build up and will produce a faster opening. So be it, it still requires the opening to occur within 300 feet from activation. Some have interpreted this as allowing 5 seconds for the deployment. I know this as several have told me it was their belief. How many manufacturers have published the videos of these tests? The answer is “ONE”. One out of how many, 10 or 12? And you are still buying their equipment?

I have found that it requires about the same amount of time to deploy at terminal as it does at sub-terminal. The difference is the speed. You will certainly travel further at 120MPH within 3 seconds than you would at 20 FPS. However, the requirement is still 300 feet for both. If it takes 300 feet for a reserve to deploy at sub-terminal after a cutaway it will take considerably more at terminal. This should tell you that rigs which have difficulty meeting the 3 second cutaway requirement will be suspect for the 300 foot terminal requirement.

I know it is difficult to accept that the rig you love and spent thousands of dollars for is possibly defective. No one wants to admit that they fell for a line of BS when they bought their rig. But many did. They bought their rig based upon flowers and candy not Drag Coefficients or extraction efforts or reserve deployment speeds. Not harness strength or comfort. They were told those things didn’t matter and that they would be cool because some Champion jumped their gear. Of course the Champion was paid to jump that gear.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Apr 22, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #316 of 400 (1900 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It is as simple as this: The reserve failed to open at terminal from 750 +/- feet. ...
We don't know whether or not that is the case in this dual incident. AAD data could tell us whether or not they fired at 750 ft. Some one has this information. It would be nice to know.
In reply to:
They didn’t fail because of burble
We don't know whether or not that is the case in this dual incident. It is possible the video reveals whether or not both PCs were trapped in a burble. Someone has this information. It would be nice to know.
In reply to:
they didn’t fail because of the proximity of the jumping pair.
We don't know whether or not that is the case in this dual incident. It is possible the video shows the proximity of the pair when the AADs fired. Someone has this information. It would be nice to know.
In reply to:
They failed because they (the systems) are defective. That’s right I said defective.
You may very well be right, but it is also possible you are not. At this point, based on what is publicly available, we just don't know. It is possible the AAD data plus the video could tell us whether or not you are correct. But there are a number of other possible causes that can't yet be ruled out. Someone has this information. It would be nice to know.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 22, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #317 of 400 (1881 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It is as simple as this: The reserve failed to open at terminal from 750 +/- feet. ...

We don't know whether or not that is the case in this dual incident. AAD data could tell us whether or not they fired at 750 ft. Some one has this information. It would be nice to know.

What sort of data can be dumped from the unit after an AAD fire?

Is it self-referencing? By that I mean since the program is run to fire at 750ft, then that is when the data is going to tell you it fired. Are there any secondary data sources in there?

I'm not an engineer but trying to figure out how you would verify when the AAD fired except by reference to the same AAD components that caused it to fire.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Apr 22, 2013, 11:08 AM
Post #318 of 400 (1862 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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What sort of data can be dumped from the unit after an AAD fire?

Is it self-referencing? By that I mean since the program is run to fire at 750ft, then that is when the data is going to tell you it fired. Are there any secondary data sources in there?

I'm not an engineer but trying to figure out how you would verify when the AAD fired except by reference to the same AAD components that caused it to fire.

The AAD dump will show the point at which the velocity dropped to zero. We know that is when it reached the ground. So if the AAD says it fired at 750', but also says it reached zero velocity at 130', then we know it actually fired at 620' AGL.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 22, 2013, 11:37 AM
Post #319 of 400 (1828 views)
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Re: [Divalent] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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We don't know whether or not that is the case in this dual incident. It is possible the video reveals whether or not both PCs were trapped in a burble. Someone has this information. It would be nice to know.

The video has been viewed and reported on. The only germane info that I could glean from the report is the indication that the student was relaxed as if to be unconscious.

Now let’s talk a bit about "Burble": Burble as we all know is that low pressure area which follows us where ever we go in freefall. The size and strength and location is what disqualifies it in these incidents.
Ask yourself this: What is the body position which produces the slowest fall rate? What ever it is it would seem to be the one with the most burble or low pressure. Answer: "Dead Spider" second choice “Flat and Stable”. Both require conscious technique and strength. In an event where the jumper finds himself at 750 feet they are probably incapacitated or unconscious. In neither mode would a burble be stable enough and strong enough to delay the pilot chute. Head down the burble goes to the feet or the highest point where it gets smaller than the pilot chute which would go right on by it.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Apr 22, 2013, 11:47 AM
Post #320 of 400 (1808 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

The video has been viewed and reported on. The only germane info that I could glean from the report is the indication that the student was relaxed as if to be unconscious.

Now let’s talk a bit about "Burble": Burble as we all know is that low pressure area which follows us where ever we go in freefall. The size and strength and location is what disqualifies it in these incidents.
Ask yourself this: What is the body position which produces the slowest fall rate? What ever it is it would seem to be the one with the most burble or low pressure. Answer: "Dead Spider" second choice “Flat and Stable”. Both require conscious technique and strength. In an event where the jumper finds himself at 750 feet they are probably incapacitated or unconscious. In neither mode would a burble be stable enough and strong enough to delay the pilot chute. Head down the burble goes to the feet or the highest point where it gets smaller than the pilot chute which would go right on by it.

You just confirmed my suspicion that they were probably head-down and in excess of belly-terminal. Is any info floating around about what the velocity was at 750' AGL?


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 22, 2013, 11:53 AM
Post #321 of 400 (1813 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What sort of data can be dumped from the unit after an AAD fire?

Is it self-referencing? By that I mean since the program is run to fire at 750ft, then that is when the data is going to tell you it fired. Are there any secondary data sources in there?

I'm not an engineer but trying to figure out how you would verify when the AAD fired except by reference to the same AAD components that caused it to fire.

The AAD dump will show the point at which the velocity dropped to zero. We know that is when it reached the ground. So if the AAD says it fired at 750', but also says it reached zero velocity at 130', then we know it actually fired at 620' AGL.

Does anybody have a data dump from a Cypres available to them?


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 22, 2013, 12:15 PM
Post #322 of 400 (1795 views)
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Re: [adamhildreth] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
What are you actually, physically, going to do???

I will NOT chase another skydiver below my hard deck. How's that for concrete action to prevent a fatality?

MINE!

jon
Some of us are trying to make a difference to safety by doing something about it. Unfortunately there are many who don't want to take notice of tests and recommendations especially if it involves major changes to equipment or practices. It has been said that this incident was unlikely to have been caused by retarded reserve deployment because of the different equipment involved.

What if I told you that my two years of research and testing indicates that under certain circumstances most modern containers could fail to open in time. It is not the failure of the equipment to perform as we would expect that is rare it is the circumstances when we need it to perform that is very rare. For what ever reason these two unfortunate people found themselves in the situation they did, the equipment that should have saved them failed to do so. I can see no reason for two AAD's to activate at the same (to Low) altitude these things are well proven to be accurate to within probably better than 50ft in real use. The way the rigs are packed however, having the main still in place, excessive reserve free bag extraction force, the reserve being a very tight fit and the reserve closing loop length to long can easily conspire to delay the opening by the one second you don't have to spare. At terminal AAD firing height is 3.5 seconds from impact if you are down to 2.5 seconds then there is every chance you will reach the planet at line stretch. There is no better confirmation of this than Airtec have started to distribute the updated Cypress 2. I believe this allows you to increase activation height up to 9 100ft increments. Bill booth is on record stating all opening, decision and activation heights should be raised. And I have just managed to get an Approved method of opening reserves at the repack cycle accepted by the BPA in the UK to test and monitor the opening performance of reserve containers. At the very least other factors that may be common to both victims should be considered like the way the containers were packed, length of loops, who packed them etc. When there is an incident the thing to do is look for the common factors as they will point to causes even if they are only contributory.

There are many people out there who know about these problems but because of litigation or financial implications are in denial. As this thread allows speculation it is time that these possibility's are firmly on the table as the most obvious cause because these issues are real and will still exist even if it turned out that some other factor influenced the outcome in this case.

Of course it is also good to discuss what can be done to avoid getting into this type of situation in the first place but I doubt anyone gets there on purpose so if it happened to you would you want to know that your equipment is capable of saving you?

Do you have the results of the test?
I have the results of many tests and already we are finding pilot chutes that clear the container by as little as 18" and extraction forces as high as 48lbs and this is on very well known equipment.


(This post was edited by p.w.stockwell on Apr 22, 2013, 12:19 PM)


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Apr 22, 2013, 12:17 PM
Post #323 of 400 (1790 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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They bought their rig based upon flowers and candy not Drag Coefficients or extraction efforts or reserve deployment speeds.

Like the attached (photo)? See the amount of reserve container covered by the main riser covers... Looks scary to me!
Attachments: Tear_Drop.jpg (89.3 KB)


robinheid  (D 5533)

Apr 22, 2013, 12:35 PM
Post #324 of 400 (1769 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

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Great post Paul. Let me add:

I fail to understand why there is so much conversation about superfluous aspects of this problem and no discussion about the root cause. Not even an attempt to acknowledge, by most jumpers, that this is plainly and simply a failure of the parachute assemblies. There are seems to be only a few perceptive individuals who understand this.

It is as simple as this: The reserve failed to open at terminal from 750 +/- feet. The TSO requires them to open in 300 feet to qualify. I don’t care why they failed, they failed. There have now been 18 of them.
They didn’t fail because of burble; they didn’t fail because of the proximity of the jumping pair. They failed because they (the systems) are defective. That’s right I said defective.

I hear people talk about raising the deployment altitudes. This is fine for mains but reserves don’t take longer to open today than they did yesterday or at least they shouldn’t. The requirements are the same as they have always been. Reserves are required to open in no more than 300 feet. If they don’t they are defective. I personally believe the problem is not with the canopy but with the systems.

In all 18 occurrences the investigators have neglected to TEST the failed rigs. They look at them and through their tunnel vision and declare “everything is in order”, rigs in date, components are compatible, etc. I don’t know of an investigator who is qualified to make such a sweeping statement; “no one”. How about testing the failed rigs? I have personally spoken to several of these investigators suggesting this but nothing to date. It has yet to be done. One case where similarity testing (testing on a similar rig) was performed the similar rig failed. Where is that report? In another incident where the reserve failed to extract and was “Hand Deployed” the rig was checked to find extraordinarily high extraction effort. Additionally, 7 of the 8 rigs involved in the 18 failures had the main container full; all had “Trough” riser covers. This has a tendency to put pressure on the top of the reserve container as the rig is tightened into place on the wearers back.

This is not a new problem. It has been going on for over 20 years. Before AAD’s we just said “he pulled his reserve too low”. Now we have proof to show that they didn’t pull too low, that the reserve failed to open. The AAD activation altitude was selected for it’s 2.5 to 1 safety margin. 300 feet required, times 2.5 equals 750 feet. Plenty of time for the reserve to work within it’s required parameters.

There is a misunderstanding among some of the manufacturers as to the requirement of the cutaway tests. I believe that some may have used this misunderstanding for their certification. It has to do with cutaways. With an RSL, which is required on half of the tests, you must deploy within 3 second or 300 feet maximum. Without the RSL you may fall no more than 2 seconds after release before activating the ripcord at which time the reserve must deploy in 3 seconds or 300 feet from pack opening altitude. This 2 additional seconds gives time for more Dynamic Pressure to build up and will produce a faster opening. So be it, it still requires the opening to occur within 300 feet from activation. Some have interpreted this as allowing 5 seconds for the deployment. I know this as several have told me it was their belief. How many manufacturers have published the videos of these tests? The answer is “ONE”. One out of how many, 10 or 12? And you are still buying their equipment?

I have found that it requires about the same amount of time to deploy at terminal as it does at sub-terminal. The difference is the speed. You will certainly travel further at 120MPH within 3 seconds than you would at 20 FPS. However, the requirement is still 300 feet for both. If it takes 300 feet for a reserve to deploy at sub-terminal after a cutaway it will take considerably more at terminal. This should tell you that rigs which have difficulty meeting the 3 second cutaway requirement will be suspect for the 300 foot terminal requirement.

I know it is difficult to accept that the rig you love and spent thousands of dollars for is possibly defective. No one wants to admit that they fell for a line of BS when they bought their rig. But many did. They bought their rig based upon flowers and candy not Drag Coefficients or extraction efforts or reserve deployment speeds. Not harness strength or comfort. They were told those things didn’t matter and that they would be cool because some Champion jumped their gear. Of course the Champion was paid to jump that gear.

Definitely kudos to Paul, and great stuff from you too, John -- and here's some insight about what you fail to understand:

Ignorance is bliss.

There is so much conversation about superfluous aspects of this problem and not even an attempt to acknowledge, by most jumpers, that this is plainly and simply a failure of the parachute assemblies because, for most jumpers, it's too scary a proposition to contemplate so they ignore it and/or talk around it.

And it's not that there are only a few individuals perceptive enough to understand that this is plainly and simply a failure of the parachute assemblies; it's that there are only a few individuals per thousand with the intellectual clarity and courage to accept the reality of it -- and all that such acceptance entails.

You also make a critically important point -- no one ever tests the gear afterward; they declare through their tunnel vision that “everything is in order”, rigs in date, components are compatible, etc.

Part of the problem here is that, for government agencies, the paperwork is the product. If the paperwork is in order, that means the product is in order. Period. Full stop.

I do know of one situation years ago where a reserve failed to activate after a hard pull. Fortunately, the jumper did not have an AAD so she didn't wait; she elbowed the container, twisted her body, all to no avail -- then literally reached over her head and clawed open the top flap. The reserve opened and she landed alive to tell the tale.

The manufacturer, who was local, repacked the rig and... duplicated the failure on the packing table. This led the manufacturer to change the rig, thus fixing the problem and preventing more fatalities.

It seems to me, John, that a concerted effort should be made to demand after-incident testing whenever there is a reserve-failure-to-deploy-in-a-timely-manner incident, whether it is fatal or not... and maybe, to back up the process to a preventive rather than forensic level, seek to revise TSO testing to include deployment testing that can detect improperly engineered parachute assemblies that could result in reserve-failure-to-deploy-in-a-timely-manner incidents.

Frown
44


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 22, 2013, 12:40 PM
Post #325 of 400 (1757 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a mistake to assume the same cause was the reason for both failures to deploy.

I could be mistaken but the video may be subject to a FOIA request if it's a part of an investigation.
I didn't make that assumption .I have clearly said that a whole list of things could in any combination conspire to cause delayed reserve deployment and many more containers are affected than anyone wants to admit. Therefore the fact that there were two different containers should not be argued as a reason to discount delayed reserve deployment.and that it should be seriously considered. As John correctly stated in many previous incidents equipment was visually inspected and discounted without any real consideration

I have results of tests with numbers that predict the systems is unlikely to open in time and I know John does to. Sadly delayed reserve deployment is a real candidate in this incident and must be considered by the investigators.

And I know its Airtec damn spell checkers


(This post was edited by p.w.stockwell on Apr 22, 2013, 12:47 PM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 22, 2013, 12:47 PM
Post #326 of 400 (2913 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't make that assumption .I have clearly said that a whole list of things could in any combination conspire to cause delayed reserve deployment and many more containers are affected than anyone wants to admit. Therefore the fact that there were two different containers should not be argued as a reason to discount delayed reserve deployment.and that it should be seriously considered. As John correctly stated in many previous incidents equipment was visually inspected and discounted without any real consideration

I have results of tests with numbers that predict the systems is unlikely to open in time and I know John does to. Sadly delayed reserve deployment is a real candidate in this incident and must be considered by the investigators.

I fully agree that delayed reserve deployment is still a candidate. I also wish they were doing post accident testing of the rigs.

I remain very frustrated that the details of these incidents are not being freely and widely shared.

Will the results of your testing be shared?


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 22, 2013, 12:58 PM
Post #327 of 400 (2902 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I didn't make that assumption .I have clearly said that a whole list of things could in any combination conspire to cause delayed reserve deployment and many more containers are affected than anyone wants to admit. Therefore the fact that there were two different containers should not be argued as a reason to discount delayed reserve deployment.and that it should be seriously considered. As John correctly stated in many previous incidents equipment was visually inspected and discounted without any real consideration

I have results of tests with numbers that predict the systems is unlikely to open in time and I know John does to. Sadly delayed reserve deployment is a real candidate in this incident and must be considered by the investigators.

I fully agree that delayed reserve deployment is still a candidate. I also wish they were doing post accident testing of the rigs.

I remain very frustrated that the details of these incidents are not being freely and widely shared.

Will the results of your testing be shared?
Our testing is designed to improve packing standards which do greatly affect the reserve deployment and allow us to compare container performance. The manufacturers will of course be asked to confirm the serviceability of any systems with high extraction forces and our riggers will be able to advise potential purchasers from a much more knowledgeable position.


(This post was edited by p.w.stockwell on Apr 22, 2013, 1:00 PM)


danornan  (D 11308)

Apr 22, 2013, 2:38 PM
Post #328 of 400 (2830 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on all of this information, in addition to pulling my own reserve (always done) at repack time, I'll also test the amount of pull pressure to get the reserve deployment bag out of the container.

Is this a valid test and one that should be done? Am I deceiving myself by the results?


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 22, 2013, 5:50 PM
Post #329 of 400 (2728 views)
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Re: [danornan] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is this a valid test and one that should be done? Am I deceiving myself by the results?

What are the results? If it is over 18 pounds and you jump it you are deceving yourself.

Test procedure attached.
Attachments: BPA Reserve opening procedure.pdf (82.6 KB)


TampaPete  (B License)

Apr 22, 2013, 6:02 PM
Post #330 of 400 (2719 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Wouldn’t a larger diameter reserve pilot chute increase the pull out force imparted on the packed reserve?


danornan  (D 11308)

Apr 22, 2013, 7:21 PM
Post #331 of 400 (2673 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Is this a valid test and one that should be done? Am I deceiving myself by the results?

What are the results? If it is over 18 pounds and you jump it you are deceving yourself.

Test procedure attached.

THANKS - This is the first time I've seen this and it should be more widely available. I will use it from now on.. I'm surprised that it is not used at every repack.


(This post was edited by danornan on Apr 22, 2013, 7:22 PM)


theonlyski  (D License)

Apr 23, 2013, 4:43 AM
Post #332 of 400 (2492 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I think it's a mistake to assume the same cause was the reason for both failures to deploy.

I could be mistaken but the video may be subject to a FOIA request if it's a part of an investigation.

In Florida we have the 'Sunshine law'.

Basically it's the FOIA for the state. I don't know if the state can trump the county (county policy is to not release any video showing fatalities) however, I know that as a county employee, all records of email, calls and even web surfing is subject to it.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 23, 2013, 6:48 AM
Post #333 of 400 (2413 views)
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Re: [TampaPete] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Wouldn’t a larger diameter reserve pilot chute increase the pull out force imparted on the packed reserve?

It might, however size doesn't matter as much as efficiency of design. The Drag Coefficient defines efficiency.
The components which constitute drag are; The physical size (So) in square feet, the drag coefficient or efficiency number (Cd) which is non dimensional, and the dynamic pressure from the speed and altitude (Q) in pounds per square foot. Dynamic air Pressure times "Effective Size" = Drag

There are 36 inch pilot chutes out there which have a Cd of .83 or 83 percent efficient and 36 inch pilot chutes which have a Cd of .33 or 33 percent efficiency. This equates to an "Effective Size" (So* Cd) of 5.92 Sq. Ft. vs. 2.33 sq. ft. a difference of more than double the drag area.

Can anyone out there tell me how to visually identify the difference? This is something we should all learn including the manufacturers.


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Apr 23, 2013, 7:39 AM
Post #334 of 400 (2367 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it mostly ZP vs F111? I imagine there are other factors too, but I'm guessing that would be a big one.
(I'm not a rigger, but I saw one on TV once.)


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Apr 23, 2013, 7:52 AM
Post #335 of 400 (2356 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I didn't make that assumption .I have clearly said that a whole list of things could in any combination conspire to cause delayed reserve deployment and many more containers are affected than anyone wants to admit. Therefore the fact that there were two different containers should not be argued as a reason to discount delayed reserve deployment.and that it should be seriously considered. As John correctly stated in many previous incidents equipment was visually inspected and discounted without any real consideration

I have results of tests with numbers that predict the systems is unlikely to open in time and I know John does to. Sadly delayed reserve deployment is a real candidate in this incident and must be considered by the investigators.

I fully agree that delayed reserve deployment is still a candidate. I also wish they were doing post accident testing of the rigs.

I remain very frustrated that the details of these incidents are not being freely and widely shared.

Will the results of your testing be shared?
Our testing is designed to improve packing standards which do greatly affect the reserve deployment and allow us to compare container performance. The manufacturers will of course be asked to confirm the serviceability of any systems with high extraction forces and our riggers will be able to advise potential purchasers from a much more knowledgeable position.

So I'm reading that as a no, but information will be provided directly to the manufacturers.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 23, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #336 of 400 (2298 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Is this a valid test and one that should be done? Am I deceiving myself by the results?

What are the results? If it is over 18 pounds and you jump it you are deceving yourself.

Test procedure attached.

As John points out,...well let me rephase what is going on,...


We can make what we call assumptions based upon "Face Validity," Face Validity would be to assume that: considering the insanely high odds involved in a double fatality in the first place, that something similar AND common happened here! All you have to do is make the assumption that the reserves had something in common and this tragic outcome makes perfect sense! [sad]


We really don't need to see any vidieo or other "Proof" to accept face validity theory. In other words we don't need to be a mechanic or auto engineer to operate our car? The outcome and results speak for themselves!

I will freely admit that the point made multiple times regarding making WAGS still applies, but considering the prevalance of tight containers, John's points have great face validity and the skydiving public should take notice.


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Apr 23, 2013, 8:58 AM)


crwslut  (D License)

Apr 23, 2013, 10:15 AM
Post #337 of 400 (2230 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was it ever determined whether the two reserves were entangled or had any indications of having been entangled? It seems to me that if a close-proximity dual reserve deployment occurred, such as in a situation where an instructor was attempting to save a student, this might result in an entanglement of the two reserves or reserve/body entanglement that could negate the reserve's effectiveness at a high speed and low altitude.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 23, 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #338 of 400 (2149 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I will freely admit that the point made multiple times regarding making WAGS still applies, but considering the prevalance of tight containers, John's points have great face validity and the skydiving public should take notice.

In this incident one of the containers is a student container, which generally are not very tight. Unfortunately the information on what all of the containers and reserves are that have been involved in these incidents are not commonly available.

I asked a question earlier that either nobody saw or nobody knows the answer to--did all of these incidents involve Cypres or were other AADs involved?


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 23, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #339 of 400 (2114 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I didn't make that assumption .I have clearly said that a whole list of things could in any combination conspire to cause delayed reserve deployment and many more containers are affected than anyone wants to admit. Therefore the fact that there were two different containers should not be argued as a reason to discount delayed reserve deployment.and that it should be seriously considered. As John correctly stated in many previous incidents equipment was visually inspected and discounted without any real consideration

I have results of tests with numbers that predict the systems is unlikely to open in time and I know John does to. Sadly delayed reserve deployment is a real candidate in this incident and must be considered by the investigators.

I fully agree that delayed reserve deployment is still a candidate. I also wish they were doing post accident testing of the rigs.

I remain very frustrated that the details of these incidents are not being freely and widely shared.

Will the results of your testing be shared?
Our testing is designed to improve packing standards which do greatly affect the reserve deployment and allow us to compare container performance. The manufacturers will of course be asked to confirm the serviceability of any systems with high extraction forces and our riggers will be able to advise potential purchasers from a much more knowledgeable position.

So I'm reading that as a no, but information will be provided directly to the manufacturers.
I am always a bit reluctant to post in forums because people read what you say then understand what they want to.

If we find data that indicates a single container or a make of container is unusual then of course the manufacturer must be approached and given the opportunity to tell us if the figures we have are acceptable or not. If they are not then the normal course would be to issue a safety notice or for the manufacturer to issue a recall of some sort. There is definitely nothing secret about this and even when a manufacturer is prepared to say these figure are OK the figures will definitely influence the advice riggers and packers give to owners and prospective purchasers.

But you should also understand that while I and some others completely accept Johns arguments and figures, John is the only manufacturer who has published numbers or given any justification for them. Other manufacturers have simply avoided giving this type of information.

It is possible another manufacturer may have an argument to justify his system performance and in turn we would have to accept the limitation that will impose on the jumper. For example a tight container may be good for freefly but reserve deployment may need to be initiated higher.

What I do know is that there is a discrepancy between our expectations of the reserve deployment performance and the actual reserve deployment performance on many modern containers. I also believe that the TSO testing requirements fail to identify or address that difference and this has led to the assumption that deployment performance has not changed, so therefore all TSO certified systems must be OK. I am trying to keep an open mind as to whether the containers should be changed, the TSO system updated or should we understand the implications and change the way we use modern containers. Possibly a combination of all.

What is crucial is that as many people as possible start to question the performance of their system and understand how that performance affects the way the kit is used.

Don't forget its largely customer demand that has led to the current design. If lots of people start to buy containers that are known to perform well then others will soon change their design.

Just to keep things relevant to this thread if we have to accept the performance limitation imposed by modern design then we may well move decision heights up and possibly the two unfortunate victims in this incident would have had a better chance. At least many people now will, I hope, start to consider their own equipment and think about their own decision heights.


(This post was edited by p.w.stockwell on Apr 23, 2013, 12:00 PM)


ryoder  (D 6663)

Apr 23, 2013, 11:56 AM
Post #340 of 400 (2112 views)
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Re: [Southern_Man] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

In this incident one of the containers is a student container, which generally are not very tight. Unfortunately the information on what all of the containers and reserves are that have been involved in these incidents are not commonly available.

I asked a question earlier that either nobody saw or nobody knows the answer to--did all of these incidents involve Cypres or were other AADs involved?

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660


(This post was edited by ryoder on Apr 23, 2013, 11:57 AM)


Southern_Man  (C License)

Apr 23, 2013, 12:06 PM
Post #341 of 400 (2096 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

In this incident one of the containers is a student container, which generally are not very tight. Unfortunately the information on what all of the containers and reserves are that have been involved in these incidents are not commonly available.

I asked a question earlier that either nobody saw or nobody knows the answer to--did all of these incidents involve Cypres or were other AADs involved?

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660

Yes, I'm glad the information is available on this incident and thankful to TK for making it so.

I am asking more generally about what is claimed to be more than 20 incidents. I was told that all of these +/- 20 incidents involved Cypres AADs, but I have been unable to independently confirm that.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Apr 23, 2013, 12:07 PM
Post #342 of 400 (2094 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

In this incident one of the containers is a student container, which generally are not very tight. Unfortunately the information on what all of the containers and reserves are that have been involved in these incidents are not commonly available.

I asked a question earlier that either nobody saw or nobody knows the answer to--did all of these incidents involve Cypres or were other AADs involved?

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660

Yes, I'm glad the information is available on this incident and thankful to TK for making it so.

I am asking more generally about what is claimed to be more than 20 incidents. I was told that all of these +/- 20 incidents involved Cypres AADs, but I have been unable to independently confirm that.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking.Blush


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 23, 2013, 12:19 PM
Post #343 of 400 (2088 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:

In this incident one of the containers is a student container, which generally are not very tight. Unfortunately the information on what all of the containers and reserves are that have been involved in these incidents are not commonly available.

I asked a question earlier that either nobody saw or nobody knows the answer to--did all of these incidents involve Cypres or were other AADs involved?

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660
I'm not sure where you asked this but there have been fatality's involving no or partially inflated reserves on impact. There is a good list on Dropzone.com if you search and read through the incidents. It is not exclusively Cypress.


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 23, 2013, 2:05 PM
Post #344 of 400 (1991 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Is this a valid test and one that should be done? Am I deceiving myself by the results?

What are the results? If it is over 18 pounds and you jump it you are deceving yourself.

Test procedure attached.

As John points out,...well let me rephase what is going on,...


We can make what we call assumptions based upon "Face Validity," Face Validity would be to assume that: considering the insanely high odds involved in a double fatality in the first place, that something similar AND common happened here! All you have to do is make the assumption that the reserves had something in common and this tragic outcome makes perfect sense! [sad]


We really don't need to see any vidieo or other "Proof" to accept face validity theory. In other words we don't need to be a mechanic or auto engineer to operate our car? The outcome and results speak for themselves!

I will freely admit that the point made multiple times regarding making WAGS still applies, but considering the prevalance of tight containers, John's points have great face validity and the skydiving public should take notice.
Well said sir. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck we should at the very least consider it might be a duck!


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Apr 23, 2013, 8:36 PM
Post #345 of 400 (1804 views)
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In reply to:
There's even video of some of it (a video of a FF pair dual AAD deployment from the late 90s is the first one that comes to mind).

That particular video, I've seen it. The guy with the camera landed in somebody's backyard. He and his jumpmate were not linked together in any fashion at the critical point. They were just doing a freefly jump and lost track of altitude.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Apr 23, 2013, 8:55 PM
Post #346 of 400 (1791 views)
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Re: [p.w.stockwell] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I didn't make that assumption .I have clearly said that a whole list of things could in any combination conspire to cause delayed reserve deployment and many more containers are affected than anyone wants to admit. Therefore the fact that there were two different containers should not be argued as a reason to discount delayed reserve deployment.and that it should be seriously considered. As John correctly stated in many previous incidents equipment was visually inspected and discounted without any real consideration

I have results of tests with numbers that predict the systems is unlikely to open in time and I know John does to. Sadly delayed reserve deployment is a real candidate in this incident and must be considered by the investigators.

I fully agree that delayed reserve deployment is still a candidate. I also wish they were doing post accident testing of the rigs.

I remain very frustrated that the details of these incidents are not being freely and widely shared.

Will the results of your testing be shared?
Our testing is designed to improve packing standards which do greatly affect the reserve deployment and allow us to compare container performance. The manufacturers will of course be asked to confirm the serviceability of any systems with high extraction forces and our riggers will be able to advise potential purchasers from a much more knowledgeable position.

So I'm reading that as a no, but information will be provided directly to the manufacturers.
I am always a bit reluctant to post in forums because people read what you say then understand what they want to.

If we find data that indicates a single container or a make of container is unusual then of course the manufacturer must be approached and given the opportunity to tell us if the figures we have are acceptable or not. If they are not then the normal course would be to issue a safety notice or for the manufacturer to issue a recall of some sort. There is definitely nothing secret about this and even when a manufacturer is prepared to say these figure are OK the figures will definitely influence the advice riggers and packers give to owners and prospective purchasers.

But you should also understand that while I and some others completely accept Johns arguments and figures, John is the only manufacturer who has published numbers or given any justification for them. Other manufacturers have simply avoided giving this type of information.

It is possible another manufacturer may have an argument to justify his system performance and in turn we would have to accept the limitation that will impose on the jumper. For example a tight container may be good for freefly but reserve deployment may need to be initiated higher.

What I do know is that there is a discrepancy between our expectations of the reserve deployment performance and the actual reserve deployment performance on many modern containers. I also believe that the TSO testing requirements fail to identify or address that difference and this has led to the assumption that deployment performance has not changed, so therefore all TSO certified systems must be OK. I am trying to keep an open mind as to whether the containers should be changed, the TSO system updated or should we understand the implications and change the way we use modern containers. Possibly a combination of all.

What is crucial is that as many people as possible start to question the performance of their system and understand how that performance affects the way the kit is used.

Don't forget its largely customer demand that has led to the current design. If lots of people start to buy containers that are known to perform well then others will soon change their design.

Just to keep things relevant to this thread if we have to accept the performance limitation imposed by modern design then we may well move decision heights up and possibly the two unfortunate victims in this incident would have had a better chance. At least many people now will, I hope, start to consider their own equipment and think about their own decision heights.

I don't find myself disagreeing with anything you wrote. FWIW.


BMFin

Apr 23, 2013, 9:19 PM
Post #347 of 400 (1775 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Im beginning to think this is one of those many incidents where a lot of questions will remaing open indefinetly.

May I ask, what action has USPA taken towards investigating this incident? I personally think that a more thorough fact finding and analysis of this incident could perhaps save lives in future and be very beneficial towards the sport in general.

Any USPA representative reading this (which im sure there are many) I would apprechieate your input on this question.


RobertMBlevins

Apr 23, 2013, 10:30 PM
Post #348 of 400 (1745 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Whuffo Robert says:

This video shows the last minute of a fatal plane crash that happened in Colorado in 1984, during a flight that lasted less than ten minutes.
(Full 9 minute version is HERE.) Two men in a Cessna L-19, with a camera mounted on the dashboard. They were supposed to be filming some areas of forest to check for investations of a type of beetle, I believe. Film and crash site were not found until three years after the crash.
(Yes, there's a point here.)

Now the family of these two men restricted the video from public viewing, for obvious reasons. But...they DID allow the film to be shown for pilot training purposes. There was a 20-year moratorium placed on the film for public viewing.

Suggestion: Perhaps the USPA could get a look at the video from the Zhills double fatality, a private look, and settle the questions being raised here. (Most of which, admittedly I don't understand) Just a suggestion. The family might allow that in the interest of future safety for other skydivers.


(This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Apr 24, 2013, 12:58 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 24, 2013, 7:31 AM
Post #349 of 400 (1533 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Perhaps the USPA could get a look at the video from the Zhills double fatality, a private look, and settle the questions being raised here.

The USPA leadership is basically just a collection of mostly experienced skydivers. The various individuals may or may not have expertise at skydiving accident reconstruction. Collectively or individually, they may or may not have agendas, interests or biases that might affect their objectivity. In any event, at best, they might opine, but they will certainly not settle the questions.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 24, 2013, 8:19 AM
Post #350 of 400 (1501 views)
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Re: [RobertMBlevins] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Whuffo Robert says:

This video shows the last minute of a fatal plane crash that happened in Colorado in 1984, during a flight that lasted less than ten minutes.
(Full 9 minute version is HERE.) Two men in a Cessna L-19, with a camera mounted on the dashboard. They were supposed to be filming some areas of forest to check for investations of a type of beetle, I believe. Film and crash site were not found until three years after the crash.
(Yes, there's a point here.)

Now the family of these two men restricted the video from public viewing, for obvious reasons. But...they DID allow the film to be shown for pilot training purposes. There was a 20-year moratorium placed on the film for public viewing.

Suggestion: Perhaps the USPA could get a look at the video from the Zhills double fatality, a private look, and settle the questions being raised here. (Most of which, admittedly I don't understand) Just a suggestion. The family might allow that in the interest of future safety for other skydivers.



I love that vid! Unsure

They the Air Force made us watch it , that must have been 20 years ago!!! I believe at the time a NTSB/FAA investigator was required to make shure only lic pilots were in the room???

The vid shows two dudes speaking and at the final moment, in near white out, high altitude conditions, (they spin in) "oh shit" "I'm sorry"??

But basically due to distraction they died!

Due to a moments distraction,....

C

(This is also the same speeach I give to pilots contimplating using a high wing product loaded at or near gross, but that was another thread! My point being your little plane is a demon at or near gross and no pilots are skilled at this type of operating condition: stall recovery at or near gross.)

So the similarity to skydiving was at the scene, when they finally found it, you could tell it was a stall/spin crash by the scene, no one needed the vid,...


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Apr 24, 2013, 8:26 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Apr 24, 2013, 8:35 AM
Post #351 of 400 (3946 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Perhaps the USPA could get a look at the video from the Zhills double fatality, a private look, and settle the questions being raised here.

The USPA leadership is basically just a collection of mostly experienced skydivers. The various individuals may or may not have expertise at skydiving accident reconstruction. Collectively or individually, they may or may not have agendas, interests or biases that might affect their objectivity. In any event, at best, they might opine, but they will certainly not settle the questions.

USPA does not investigate incidents, it merely reports them. They don't have the powers necessary to subpoena testimony, hold evidence, or do anything with police other than advise.

The FAA has the powers, and for the most part, have no idea how to do any investigation when it comes to skydiving accidents. Most often, the gear is mishandled and evidence destroyed by the local authorities who are charged with maintaining the "crime scene." That means taking a few photos of the gear and tossing it in a trunk. The whole focus of the FAA and police is to ensure that a crime has not been committed and the paperwork was in proper order.

If you want a real investigation of the causes of this, you are probably out of luck.

top


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Apr 24, 2013, 10:29 AM
Post #352 of 400 (3864 views)
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Re: [topdocker] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi top,

Quote:
The FAA . . . have no idea how to do any investigation when it comes to skydiving accidents.

Over the years I have had the local FAA ask me to assist in a skydiving fatality investigation; probably three times comes to mind. Everytime they only wanted me to determine if the reserve was in date or not.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Yeehaw; they corrected some glitches with this new stuff. Good for the powers that be here.


BMFin

Apr 24, 2013, 9:12 PM
Post #353 of 400 (3625 views)
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In reply to:

USPA does not investigate incidents, it merely reports them. They don't have the powers necessary to subpoena testimony, hold evidence, or do anything with police other than advise.

The FAA has the powers, and for the most part, have no idea how to do any investigation when it comes to skydiving accidents. Most often, the gear is mishandled and evidence destroyed by the local authorities who are charged with maintaining the "crime scene." That means taking a few photos of the gear and tossing it in a trunk. The whole focus of the FAA and police is to ensure that a crime has not been committed and the paperwork was in proper order.

If you want a real investigation of the causes of this, you are probably out of luck.

top


Well I agree. The FAA is mostly concerned if the fatality involved any illegalities. This is why I thought it is USPA who should seek answers concerning the causality of the incident. I think USPA should be the one to look for the things that might help the sport in the future. USPA should be the organization with the training aspirations on their agenda arent they ?

And like you said they dont have the powers necessary to subpoena testimony, hold evidence, or do anything with police other than advise, but IMO they are not necessary. Those things are necessary only when holding a trial in court and Im not suggesting that.

What Im thinking is that at least having an experienced skydiver go over the video footage and trying to gather what ever possible, gathering data from the AAD (if no one else is capable, have this done by Airtec even though they are biased on the issue) and perhaps some other things.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Apr 25, 2013, 5:35 AM
Post #354 of 400 (3495 views)
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This is starting to go beyond the scope of the thread, but in the US I think the most the USPA could do is develop a uniform recommended program (keeping it optional) of helping DZOs do what many (most?) of them already try to do: develop a good relationship with local LEO and first-responder agencies, and try to partner with them (the locals) to pre-establish proper, agreed-upon protocols for dealing with both the medical and the physical evidence aspects of an incident.


likearock  (D 24640)

Apr 25, 2013, 8:57 AM
Post #355 of 400 (3385 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is starting to go beyond the scope of the thread, but in the US I think the most the USPA could do is develop a uniform recommended program (keeping it optional) of helping DZOs do what many (most?) of them already try to do: develop a good relationship with local LEO and first-responder agencies, and try to partner with them (the locals) to pre-establish proper, agreed-upon protocols for dealing with both the medical and the physical evidence aspects of an incident.

That is a very good idea and long overdue.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Apr 25, 2013, 9:14 AM
Post #356 of 400 (3366 views)
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Re: [likearock] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This is starting to go beyond the scope of the thread, but in the US I think the most the USPA could do is develop a uniform recommended program (keeping it optional) of helping DZOs do what many (most?) of them already try to do: develop a good relationship with local LEO and first-responder agencies, and try to partner with them (the locals) to pre-establish proper, agreed-upon protocols for dealing with both the medical and the physical evidence aspects of an incident.

That is a very good idea and long overdue.

I actually did try that after my incident. However, the LEO's won't listen to me or USPA, because the FAA has handed them a protocol paper already. Which is why the police now maintain a crime scene and hold evidence for the FAA.

What I am trying to do is to provide the FAA better guidance for accident investigations that they can pass on to the LEO's. Mostly its a quick guide to gear and what is essential in evidence gathering for skydiving, complete with pictures for a "if you see this, get a picture of it," approach.

This is pertinent to this discussion because it is going to demonstrate why we are probably not going to see much of an investigation from the FAA, merely get a report from USPA, and the video will most likely never be seen.

top


likearock  (D 24640)

Apr 25, 2013, 9:51 AM
Post #357 of 400 (3338 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
This is starting to go beyond the scope of the thread, but in the US I think the most the USPA could do is develop a uniform recommended program (keeping it optional) of helping DZOs do what many (most?) of them already try to do: develop a good relationship with local LEO and first-responder agencies, and try to partner with them (the locals) to pre-establish proper, agreed-upon protocols for dealing with both the medical and the physical evidence aspects of an incident.

That is a very good idea and long overdue.

I actually did try that after my incident. However, the LEO's won't listen to me or USPA, because the FAA has handed them a protocol paper already. Which is why the police now maintain a crime scene and hold evidence for the FAA.

What I am trying to do is to provide the FAA better guidance for accident investigations that they can pass on to the LEO's. Mostly its a quick guide to gear and what is essential in evidence gathering for skydiving, complete with pictures for a "if you see this, get a picture of it," approach.

This is pertinent to this discussion because it is going to demonstrate why we are probably not going to see much of an investigation from the FAA, merely get a report from USPA, and the video will most likely never be seen.

top

It sounds like we need better coordination between the USPA and FAA on this issue. Is there a regular dialog or set of meetings between the two groups?


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Apr 25, 2013, 10:38 AM
Post #358 of 400 (3292 views)
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In reply to:
It sounds like we need better coordination between the USPA and FAA on this issue. Is there a regular dialog or set of meetings between the two groups?

USPA Director of Government Relations:
Randy Ottinger
USPA Member #8628, D-6041
Director of Government Relations
Extension: 330
GovRelations@uspa.org
Department: Government Relations

This is a full time paid position.
Randy would listen to any and all offerings.
He works for you so drop him an E-mail. He can explain how it all works.


topdocker  (D 12018)

Apr 25, 2013, 12:12 PM
Post #359 of 400 (3217 views)
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Re: [likearock] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
This is starting to go beyond the scope of the thread, but in the US I think the most the USPA could do is develop a uniform recommended program (keeping it optional) of helping DZOs do what many (most?) of them already try to do: develop a good relationship with local LEO and first-responder agencies, and try to partner with them (the locals) to pre-establish proper, agreed-upon protocols for dealing with both the medical and the physical evidence aspects of an incident.

That is a very good idea and long overdue.

I actually did try that after my incident. However, the LEO's won't listen to me or USPA, because the FAA has handed them a protocol paper already. Which is why the police now maintain a crime scene and hold evidence for the FAA.

What I am trying to do is to provide the FAA better guidance for accident investigations that they can pass on to the LEO's. Mostly its a quick guide to gear and what is essential in evidence gathering for skydiving, complete with pictures for a "if you see this, get a picture of it," approach.

This is pertinent to this discussion because it is going to demonstrate why we are probably not going to see much of an investigation from the FAA, merely get a report from USPA, and the video will most likely never be seen.

top

It sounds like we need better coordination between the USPA and FAA on this issue. Is there a regular dialog or set of meetings between the two groups?

Working with the local FSDO and the GA guy that does the skydiving investigations in Norcal. Seemed easier to get the field guys to just make the change than request a policy change at the top.

top


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 26, 2013, 1:06 AM
Post #360 of 400 (3012 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Which Cypres the student used ?

what was his weight ?

Sad but we need to learn for the future.

2 persons with the same issue with 2 different h/c & reserves - it could be more then h/c issues.

Be Safe !!!


holie  (A License)

Apr 26, 2013, 3:23 AM
Post #361 of 400 (3014 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Shlomo,

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4462660#4462660 there it says:
Quote:
Student jumping a 1996/7 Student Javelin with a 1996/7 PD253R and PD 280 Main, Cypres expert , not sure if it was a I or II. All compatible gear, in good condition with no size of compatibility issues.

regards


jbhl4  (D 23973)

Apr 26, 2013, 4:01 AM
Post #362 of 400 (2998 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Missing jumpers. Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

This went off topic long ago.


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 26, 2013, 6:20 AM
Post #363 of 400 (2924 views)
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Re: [holie] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

Thanks.

I read that but I want to be sure.

Why a STUDENT system has a CYPRES EXP. inside & not a CYPRES STUDENT ?

Does there is any info. on his weight ?

Thanks


ryoder  (D 6663)

Apr 26, 2013, 7:06 AM
Post #364 of 400 (2899 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why a STUDENT system has a CYPRES EXP. inside & not a CYPRES STUDENT ?

That would make no difference at terminal velocity.

Ref: http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4461759#4461759


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 26, 2013, 10:25 AM
Post #365 of 400 (2781 views)
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Re: [ryoder] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

I see no reason to put a Cypres EXP. into a Student system !!!

I agree that at free fall speed they both will fire at 750' BUT if the speed is less then free fall speed but still above 29 mph the CYPRES STUDENT will fire at 1000' this is a big difference !!!

In this case looks that the speed was free fall + and the AAD activation altitude was 750' with both modes.

Students pulls higher during the AFF course till the A lic. there is no reason they will have a split activation system in the same AAD = 750' in one case & 1000' in a different case - it should be at least 1000' in any case IMO.

We can't change the past but we might save others in the future.

Does the student weight was not released ????

Be Safe !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Apr 26, 2013, 10:30 AM)


airdvr  (D 10977)

Apr 26, 2013, 10:33 AM
Post #366 of 400 (2770 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi

I see no reason to put a Cypres EXP. into a Student system !!!

I agree that at free fall speed they both will fire at 750' BUT if the speed is less then free fall speed but still above 29 mph the CYPRES STUDENT will fire at 1000' this is a big difference !!!

In this case looks that the speed was free fall + and the AAD activation altitude was 750' with both modes.

Students pulls higher during the AFF course till the A lic. there is no reason they will have a split activation system in the same AAD = 750' in one case & 1000' in a different case - it should be at least 1000' in any case IMO.

We can't change the past but we might save others in the future.

Does the student weight was not released ????

Be Safe !!!

Since we don't know any better there is the possibility of the reserve pc getting trapped. In that case you can raise the altitude to 5 grand and it won't matter,


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Apr 26, 2013, 10:19 PM
Post #367 of 400 (2534 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

We do not know for sure what were the reasons.

Cheers


MrHixxx  (D 24144)

Apr 28, 2013, 11:22 AM
Post #368 of 400 (2212 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

Just curious. Has anyone considered the possibility of E thread being used on the hardware instead of rigger's seal thread? If they were packed by the same rigger... This would probably cause enough of a delay on a straight reserve deployment to be in the ground...

-Hixxx


p.w.stockwell  (D 8496)

Apr 28, 2013, 1:19 PM
Post #369 of 400 (2154 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Double Fatality - Zhills 3-23-13 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hi

I see no reason to put a Cypres EXP. into a Student system !!!

I agree that at free fall speed they both will fire at 750' BUT if the speed is less then free fall speed but still above 29 mph the CYPRES STUDENT will fire at 1000' this is a big difference !!!

In this case looks that the speed was free fall + and the AAD activation altitude was 750' with both modes.

Students pulls higher during the AFF course till the A lic. there is no reason they will have a split activation system in the same AAD = 750' in one case & 1000' in a different case - it should be at least 1000' in any case IMO.

We can't change the past but we might save others in the future.

Does the student weight was not released ????

Be Safe !!!

Since we don't know any better there is the possibility of the reserve pc getting trapped. In that case you can raise the altitude to 5 grand and it won't matter,
Information given earlier was that the pilot chutes and free bags were in the trees above the victims. That would indicate deployment had occurred and as the AAD's had fired deployment was initiated at 750ft. It would be appropriate to investigate why the deployment took to long?


evan85  (C 41367)

Apr 28, 2013, 3:12 PM
Post #370 of 400 (2091 views)