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Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight

 

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kuai43  (C License)

Feb 16, 2013, 2:22 AM
Post #76 of 114 (2622 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

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Almost 'EVERYTHING' is on a video somewhere when doing demos, and ya REALLY gotta watch those long lens guys - I got asked about a pic of me, head out the door of a '3 just after rotation...yes there was a seat-belt on the floor, it WAS through my keg-strap.

Be aware - you ARE on candid camera! Sly

As long as you didn't lose the keg, there should be no questioning your judgment. Cool


kuai43  (C License)

Feb 16, 2013, 2:24 AM
Post #77 of 114 (2618 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Almost 'EVERYTHING' is on a video somewhere when doing demos, and ya REALLY gotta watch those long lens guys - I got asked about a pic of me, head out the door of a '3 just after rotation...yes there was a seat-belt on the floor, it WAS through my keg-strap.

Be aware - you ARE on candid camera! Sly

As long as you didn't lose the keg, there should be no questioning your judgment. Cool

Just make sure you have B-12s for quick deployment.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 16, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #78 of 114 (2575 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

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You are pointing towards a scary, slippery slope ... no more jokes onboard the airplane ... manifest ... no wait a minute: the DZ's senior-most rigger rigidly inspecting every visiting rig and grounding many long before the FAA (or manufacturers) ... etc.
No linked exits ...
Ending in "fun-jumping" being banished from tandem-factories ... errrr ... DZs.
Scary!

I think most (myself included) will agree with you. But, the fact remains, if you do something stupid, it will end up on U-tube. Unsure


RyanFYF  (C License)

Feb 16, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #79 of 114 (2562 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post


Attachments: aintnobody.jpg (29.7 KB)


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 18, 2013, 2:55 AM
Post #80 of 114 (2387 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

It is funny people get all upset when the sport is portayed as 'almost unregulated' and pretty much every attempt to introduce regulation meets a large amount of resistnace.

I hadn't looked at the BSR's for a while, but this incident made me revisit them. Sorry but when the sporting body (USPA) regulations are so lax that a student off AFF level 7 no longer needs supervison by an instructor the system is broken. Once a student has proven their ability to regain stability within 5 seconds the USPA cuts them loose.

Sorry the guy may be an arsehole, but he did nothing outside the rules. In fact from a USPA point of view he could take 20 of his buddies with shitty gear, go pros and 10 jumps each and attempt a head down bigway, and the jump wouldn't breach a single BSR.

If you want to have "the wild west" with no rules, fine, but then be grown up enough to tell the media to fuck off because you are big boys who don't need them. Don't go bitching that the media got it wrong...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 18, 2013, 6:40 AM
Post #81 of 114 (2333 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you want to have "the wild west" with no rules, fine, but then be grown up enough to tell the media to fuck off because you are big boys who don't need them. Don't go bitching that the media got it wrong...

OK, how about this... The media over sensationalized one side of a multi-faceted story. They completely ignored what I believe to be their journalistic responsibility to investigate and print the WHOLE truth to the best of their ability. I’m so fricking naive, right? No-body is responsible for anything anymore. Unsure


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Feb 18, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #82 of 114 (2265 views)
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Re: [wmw999] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

being in mechanical engineering i feel i had a bit more interest in my car when i was 16 than some might have Wink i understand what youre saying partially. but if someone doesnt have the ability to step up and ask something about a device that is saving their lives then i dont have much to say. does it slow things down sometimes? yes. would it help eliminate the general public from seeing stories like this one and putting the sport in a better light? absolutely. fact is stuff will continue to happen but we arent aiding ourselves or anyone else by accepting that as a constant and laying back without doing anything.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Feb 18, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #83 of 114 (2158 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You may not like the reporting style but the fact of the matter is they told the cold hard truth about our industry and it's lack of oversight.

USPA is a joke on publishing safety! USPA taking action to "clean up" the industry is a joke! Every little write up in parashitty about safety and "doing the right thing" is all a line of BULLSHIT! USPA is full of hypocrites and has a long history of turning a blind eye and sweeping shit under the rug to cover up for the good old boy network. FACT!

USPA is fucking joke on upholding the GM pledge! And the only real good coming out of HQ is the office of Randy Ottinger and his work on airport access the rest of it is all window dressing and total bullshit being conducted by a handful of hypocrites.

If you don't like the facts being pointed out in the media then maybe you should work harder to change that.... USPA seems to think their marketing dollars are well spent with all the fluffy stories.... but don't want own up to or print the information they get about rogue operators that is proven by the FAA and the NTSB to be true and factual!

Nope USPA leadership from the top down would choose to lie and misinform the membership while protecting those rouge operators by not publishing the facts, but rather USPA would choose to spend membership dues to try to claim FAA inspectors are in cahoots with disgruntled skydivers to frame operators in the industry, despite a a huge mountain of proven facts. And USPA would make a formulated plan to attempt to throw an FAA inspector, who was a USPA member of 35 yrs and additional USPA members under the bus in a lame attempt to sweep shit under the rug.

This is not the first time USPA has taken such actions towards USPA members and it will not be the last time.

All it will take is one major skydiving disaster with a bunch of violations as the cause and with all the FOIA documents out there floating around proving how USPA has been doing this shit for years, can and will prove everything that was said in this story as to lack of oversight and those are in fact foxes guarding the hen house.


Dang I muts have missed your name on the ballot...Next time I will be sure and vote for you, you are running again right? TongueCool




nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 18, 2013, 11:37 PM
Post #85 of 114 (2022 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

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Quote:
I hadn't looked at the BSR's for a while, but this incident made me revisit them. Sorry but when the sporting body (USPA) regulations are so lax that a student off AFF level 7 no longer needs supervison by an instructor the system is broken. Once a student has proven their ability to regain stability within 5 seconds the USPA cuts them loose.

Truck on back to your nanny state with that nonsense.

That has been working just fine for 40 years, and it's the same process that created the instructors that taught you.

Considering that at least one of the instructors that originally taught me, would smoke dope prior to the load with students on that probably isn't the best example to setLaugh

As to the person who taught me recurrency under the USPA system (popsjumper), well you know what he's likeAngelicTongue


Bertt  (D 99999)

Feb 19, 2013, 3:19 PM
Post #86 of 114 (1834 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

not replying to anybody in particular, just to the issue of a self-regulated industry -
The BP Macondo well blew out and killed 11 people in a highly regulated industry. Skydiving's not doing all that bad.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 19, 2013, 8:12 PM
Post #87 of 114 (1710 views)
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Re: [Bertt] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

What does that have to do with anything?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Feb 20, 2013, 1:25 AM
Post #88 of 114 (1666 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

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What does that have to do with anything?

Regulation doesn't beat stupidity.....


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 20, 2013, 5:45 AM
Post #89 of 114 (1601 views)
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Re: [obelixtim] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

No probably not but that still doesn't change the fact that he is allowed to jump a camera at 30 jumps. There is no "regulation" in place, just a recommendation. And really the camera had nothing to do with this incident, it just let us see what actually happened. If he wasn't wearing it all we would be doing is speculating, atleast we get to see what happened.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Feb 20, 2013, 7:23 AM
Post #90 of 114 (1551 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I don't know if this had been posted yet... Pretty funny shit.



http://youtu.be/a645Wx_ymsA


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 20, 2013, 7:53 AM
Post #91 of 114 (1541 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No probably not but that still doesn't change the fact that he is allowed to jump a camera at 30 jumps. There is no "regulation" in place, just a recommendation. And really the camera had nothing to do with this incident, it just let us see what actually happened. If he wasn't wearing it all we would be doing is speculating, at least we get to see what happened.

"ALLOWED," dude, Smile

What part of he wasn't allowed, he actually went to great lengths to hide this little tidbit of knowledge from everyone there. This of course for you dullards out there indicates he knew what he was doing was against the rules, he resorted to a deception (he lied.) in order to do this!

Are you also aware that he supported a used gear franchise? He and his close associates are more than familiar with gear and equipment! WAKE THE FUCK UP !! You all are being taken for the ride of the century here!

DSE,...as you point out your ”eventual outcome” is just one possible scenario,...the problem is as you point out, and the only thing you have correct,...is the fact that this issue will someday "go away."

The problem is regarding your wishful thinking answer is that how is this going to go away??? Thinking that a waiver is a magic shield that is going to protect skydiving from an opportunist such as
Flores and his legal team, and all we have to do to protect ourselves is just wave it around like some kind of flag …I’m sorry it’s naive and just plain old wishful thinking. It is not what is going to happen…

UNFORTUNATLY THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN:

Most of these types of issues are resolved by the skydiving entity filing bankruptcy, or in the event they reach an out of court settlement they as a condition of the settlement agree to a non-disclosure agreement as part of that settlement! This is why the widely held stereotype is that issues just go away; they don’t go away they get hidden! The public then understandably just thinks things go away! You said it not me, I just think you ought to understand the psychology and why so many people hold this view.

Most of the time the small business DZ is pressured by the extortion placed upon them by the Plaintiffs lawyer (That’s Mr. Flores, which was his intention all along.) indicating that as part of their legal strategy they are going to run their legal defense bills into the tens of thousands of dollars! (Ever been involved in a lawsuit? Perhaps your response, or better said only those who have actually been thru this nightmare should respond? Because tens of thousands is just a drop in the bucket.) The big ticket is the land or any assets the DZ may now currently hold. Because at this point any changing of hands of cash or land or assets is viewed as a civil infraction; an intentional attempt to hide assets…are you guys out there now getting the picture??? The law, in the name of: everyone is entitled to their rights, their day in court, works by public perception and extortion. Which is fine if both parties have “deep pockets,” who has deep pockets in this industry???

In other words this is a serious issue with large amounts of cash and assets involved. People have worked hard at establishing their business’s and engaging in activities they love. Mr. Flores has engaged in a plan and a course of action, well before the news was duped into participating in this little drama. He will get rich, another skydiving business will shut down,…and ya your right, this whole thing will go away….
Pirate


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 20, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #92 of 114 (1476 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
..... And really the camera had nothing to do with this incident, it just let us see what actually happened. If he wasn't wearing it all we would be doing is speculating, atleast we get to see what happened.

So, the fact that he was so busy filming his little skydive that he forgot (or was too occupied) to deal with a serious malfunction/problem had nothing to do with his HIDDEN small format camera? Seriously?

I don't mean to sound rude, but, get your fricken head out of the sand! Yes, there are lots of issues here to be dealt with. But Flores is responsible for the large majority of these issues. It was in his power to eleminate every one of these problems. But, he was too busy hidding his little camera under his glove. Unsure

Now he's facing flack for his part in this incident? That works for me!!!!


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Feb 20, 2013, 11:05 AM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 20, 2013, 11:20 AM
Post #93 of 114 (1443 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes he responsible 100% for himself. Whether he had the camera or not this would have been the same incident. He may have had the camera "hidden" in his glove but I do not believe that nobody at the dz saw this. He was clearly showing it to an instructor or coach on some of his other jumps on Youtube.

Honestly though we are all adults and because jumping a camera isn't an actual rule there is nothing anyone can really say. Sure if you're the DZO or S&TA you can ban it from YOUR dz but if another doesn't care then that's their business.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Feb 20, 2013, 4:34 PM
Post #94 of 114 (1365 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
UNFORTUNATLY THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN:

Most of these types of issues are resolved by the skydiving entity filing bankruptcy, or in the event they reach an out of court settlement they as a condition of the settlement agree to a non-disclosure agreement as part of that settlement! This is why the widely held stereotype is that issues just go away; they don’t go away they get hidden! The public then understandably just thinks things go away! You said it not me, I just think you ought to understand the psychology and why so many people hold this view.

Most of the time the small business DZ is pressured by the extortion placed upon them by the Plaintiffs lawyer (That’s Mr. Flores, which was his intention all along.) indicating that as part of their legal strategy they are going to run their legal defense bills into the tens of thousands of dollars! (Ever been involved in a lawsuit? Perhaps your response, or better said only those who have actually been thru this nightmare should respond? Because tens of thousands is just a drop in the bucket.) The big ticket is the land or any assets the DZ may now currently hold. Because at this point any changing of hands of cash or land or assets is viewed as a civil infraction; an intentional attempt to hide assets…are you guys out there now getting the picture??? The law, in the name of: everyone is entitled to their rights, their day in court, works by public perception and extortion. Which is fine if both parties have “deep pockets,” who has deep pockets in this industry???

In other words this is a serious issue with large amounts of cash and assets involved. People have worked hard at establishing their business’s and engaging in activities they love. Mr. Flores has engaged in a plan and a course of action, well before the news was duped into participating in this little drama. He will get rich, another skydiving business will shut down,…and ya your right, this whole thing will go away….
Pirate

I wanted to quote all this so that when it doesn't happen, you'll owe me a Dr. Pepper.Wink

Ummm....google my name and copyright. You'll see where me n' Disney/Buena Vista got into it (I won) and where me and Virgin got into it (I also won)Tongue Yep...been there, done that. And even got hysterical about it when I was younger.
I don't know what Flores motivations were, and neither does anyone else except perhaps him and his mistress. What we do know is that he didn't act within the boundaries of what we believe his training to have taught him, and we only know that because he concealed a camera.
The concealment of the camera itself is very suspicious, that's for certain. The other thing that's certain is that this legal issue won't be won nor lost on DZ.com, but the hysteria is likely helping Flores' legal cause.


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 20, 2013, 7:11 PM
Post #95 of 114 (1310 views)
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Re: [DSE] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

I'll send ya a case, either way.

Jerry B., in another forum, I think he hangs out in the "Gear" section Cool brings up just one of the issues that everyone has also "forgotten" about and that being the alleged "stolen" FAA memo dosen't mention the reserve data card / sheet or whatever we call that thingy..

This memo is going to go down in history for what it dosen't mention...

The card is just one example of just how biased stuff has become. The wording and phraseology could have indicated that in fact it was in compliance and they (FAA) did check the reserve repack cycle on paper. But I guess we will never know???

Should we have to have red thread on our sport rigs? (Excluding all of us who have ex-wives, I know the answere to that one.)


What's more important: the card, the seal ?

Anyways thanks for the reminder to be civil, I guess that's why your the moderator...Unsure
C

Perhaps someone could ask the FAA? They really do listen when large amounts of mail find there way to their doorstep...


Krip  (Student)

Feb 20, 2013, 8:37 PM
Post #96 of 114 (1276 views)
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Re: [DSE] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

 The other thing that's certain is that this legal issue won't be won nor lost on DZ.com, but the hysteria is likely helping Flores' legal cause.
+1.

IOW STFU.

Pass the cheese.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 20, 2013, 9:18 PM
Post #97 of 114 (1235 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Perhaps someone could ask the FAA?

Instead of just yakking away here, I also went up a level and did send a couple brief & respectful notes on the web to Allen Silver a week back, and just now sent a longer letter on the web to the San Jose FSDO who issued the report.

I haven't heard back from Mr. Silver, but I suggested I understood it if he wanted to lay low and not get further dragged into this whole argument online. Nevertheless, I did want to make it clear to him that his name is associated with a shoddy report, which perhaps he had only limited control over -- a sort of situation that could be troubling to any rigger.

I thought it was worth telling the FSDO what kind of effect the report was having. Perhaps it was meant for internal purposes only, and became public through a FOIA request ... I don't know. But when the media and lawyers start quoting it as a seemingly authoritative report, one could easily see the FSDO as having some responsibility to try to set matters a little more straight. Serious accusations could use some serious evidence.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Feb 21, 2013, 5:54 AM
Post #98 of 114 (1115 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What's more important: the card, the seal ?

They are both important. The person who has the most to lose if you are not in compliance with F.A.R. 105.43a (reserve repack in 180 days) is the pilot of the aircraft. You can jump without the card and seal, but the pilot probably won't allow it as his ass is on the line. The FAA probably wont go after you, but they will ground the pilot if they feel he didn't take the proper steps to insure the regulations were being followed.


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2013, 7:28 AM
Post #99 of 114 (1078 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I the only one who thinks it's wrong for the FAA regs to make the pilot responsible for every jumper having legal gear (TSOd gear and current reserve) and making a legal jump (eg no cloud punching)?

PI plaintiffs lawyers love it. The jumpships are usually insured even if the DZ is not. That makes every pilot a deep pocket defendant. You'd be amazed to see what happens as a result. I know of a case from the 1970s where the jumpship pilot was sued for a student riding a malfunctions in all the way and ending up paralysed. The aircraft insuror paid big bucks. The student rig was packed by someone who wasn't a licensed rigger. How the hell would the pilot be able to tell who packed the main???

Should airline pilots be liable for hijackings? It's illegal to board with a concealed weapon. It's an exaggerated analogy but it illustrates my point.

I don't want to see FAA licensing of jumpers, but it's unfair to make the pilot potentially liable for anyone who boards with an outdated reserve or leaves over clouds.

377


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 21, 2013, 8:47 AM
Post #100 of 114 (1045 views)
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Re: [377] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

377 makes some good points. Many FAA regs are in response to a public outcry and date from the 30s', they were not written in the context of skydiving today!

You also raise the issue of who is responsible, ultimatly for the "red thread" issue in this case.

Or perhaps we should rephrase this a little?

Who was the last person who had physical custody of this rig? Of course you can speculate that the police or whoever undid the seal? Which is very unlikely or you can do what Flores is going to do , well he has already done it hasen't he, AND say that "that was the condition that it was given to me,..."

Just like the pilot, the FAA seems to be implying that someone else is responsible,...for a rig that others had no control over! Funny how this works????

I belive that the news agency quote that I personnaly find most disturbing was when the announcer stated, and this is a direct quote:

"Skydivers,...appear to be attempting to deflect responsibility away from the school..."

He was cleared for self supervision,...the whole airline industry currently runs on the FAA doctrine of self supervision as far as the vast majority of regulations are concerned, aircraft systems are very complex, maintinance "pulsing," scheduling, etc...but apperently the media has chosen to take sides rather than report or verify who is ultimatly responsible for one's own safety.

Student / rental gear gets checked, literally hundreds of times, student gear gets checked so frequently that the gear itself shows these same wear signs and scuff marks. Your asking the skydiving public to accept the fact that this DZ and literally 20 to 30 individuals, instructors, coaches, and the packers missed the missing seal? AND other skydivers who willingly give a multitude of pin checks and all of a sudden the seal is missing? Either your speaking about a massive conspiracy of epic proportions with a multitude of individuals risking their rateings and licenses or ...

Well what is the most likely explanation???

Let me give you a little hint; It sure the heck isn't "LAX Industry oversight,"!!!!

Apparently they don't like it, I mean, that, the individual skydiver has no responsibility to check his/her own gear?

It's also funny that Flores is very carefull to never mention that he performed any gear check whatsoever, but yet we have people who want to place responsibility regarding missing seals on others who have no physical control oveer this same equipment?


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Feb 21, 2013, 8:49 AM)


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