Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight

 


airdvr  (D 10977)

Feb 11, 2013, 5:27 AM
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Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight Can't Post

I've seen some lousy reporting in my day...this one wins. What else would you expect from the Bay area.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...er-accident/#respond


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 11, 2013, 5:59 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

You may not like the reporting style but the fact of the matter is they told the cold hard truth about our industry and it's lack of oversight.

USPA is a joke on publishing safety! USPA taking action to "clean up" the industry is a joke! Every little write up in parashitty about safety and "doing the right thing" is all a line of BULLSHIT! USPA is full of hypocrites and has a long history of turning a blind eye and sweeping shit under the rug to cover up for the good old boy network. FACT!

USPA is fucking joke on upholding the GM pledge! And the only real good coming out of HQ is the office of Randy Ottinger and his work on airport access the rest of it is all window dressing and total bullshit being conducted by a handful of hypocrites.

If you don't like the facts being pointed out in the media then maybe you should work harder to change that.... USPA seems to think their marketing dollars are well spent with all the fluffy stories.... but don't want own up to or print the information they get about rogue operators that is proven by the FAA and the NTSB to be true and factual!

Nope USPA leadership from the top down would choose to lie and misinform the membership while protecting those rouge operators by not publishing the facts, but rather USPA would choose to spend membership dues to try to claim FAA inspectors are in cahoots with disgruntled skydivers to frame operators in the industry, despite a a huge mountain of proven facts. And USPA would make a formulated plan to attempt to throw an FAA inspector, who was a USPA member of 35 yrs and additional USPA members under the bus in a lame attempt to sweep shit under the rug.

This is not the first time USPA has taken such actions towards USPA members and it will not be the last time.

All it will take is one major skydiving disaster with a bunch of violations as the cause and with all the FOIA documents out there floating around proving how USPA has been doing this shit for years, can and will prove everything that was said in this story as to lack of oversight and those are in fact foxes guarding the hen house.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 11, 2013, 7:45 AM)


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 11, 2013, 6:06 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

But they printed the DZ's response in toto -- that was a good thing. It might have been too technical for the audience (one would hope not), but at least they didn't edit or excerpt it.

Wendy P.


DougH  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 6:55 AM
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Re: [stratostar] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You may not like the reporting style but the fact of the matter is they told the cold hard truth about our industry and it's lack of oversight.

Maybe so, but a lack of oversight doesn't appear to have caused this accident.

It appears to have been caused by a DGIT who snuck a go pro onto the load, when he was still trying to figure out what the hell he was doing.

Premature deployments happen. Sometimes you end up with a good canopy, other times it evolves into a ball of shit!

That is why we teach gear checks and emergency procedures.


(This post was edited by DougH on Feb 11, 2013, 6:56 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 6:55 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've seen some lousy reporting in my day...this one wins.

I don't like poor reporting of skydiving incidents, either.

In reply to:
What else would you expect from the Bay area.

You know this isn't Speaker's Corner, right?


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 11, 2013, 7:52 AM
Post #6 of 114 (10299 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

This might belong in Safety and Training, for no other reason than the fact that it took this D.B. Cooper wanabee "two years" to pull this scam.

We all know how the media is going to exploit and create issues where there are none, what is particular disturbing is the relish and improvisation they undertook to create this work of fiction. The problem is that so much of our gullible public accepts our media services as fact and then the consequences to the rest of us follow...

The individual who has perpetrated this particular pile of horse plucky; Gerardo Flores who has obviously created this "Go Pro" moment for his own particular agenda, should be strung up and shot. How many of you out there will support your local DZ now when the local DZ starts to flex their disciplinary muscle? Personally this individual should have been blacklisted before he exited the aircraft. The fact that he went to great lengths to deceive everyone around him speaks volumes about his motives and his intention in the first place. Watch and listen to the video carefully and you will see the tell tale signs of a scam artist at work. He basically lays out this carefully crafted deception and narrates it as well. The learning is the road map and behavior he undertakes as the events actually unfold.

Some of you may point out that I might be engaging in a blame the victim type of thinking here which is an issue that might be worthy of discussion if not for the blatant disregard and contempt that this individual has shown to the skydiving community at large. Unfortunately this type of behavior by opportunistic individuals is on the rise and the only constructive conduct at this point is to actually write the local news station and lobby the facts as well as point out the intentional deception and self promotion at the expense of the skydiving community that Mr. Flores is engaged in.

Just my two cents and thirty years of experience working with real accident victims and real scam artists,… It’s fairly easy to spot the difference, and yes it’s very difficult to prove either.
C


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Feb 11, 2013, 9:18 AM
Post #7 of 114 (10203 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Would the USA ever allow the USPA to actually govern the sport, by making rules instead of guidelines?


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Feb 11, 2013, 9:24 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott Lutz anyone? Crazy


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Feb 11, 2013, 9:47 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

what lax oversight exactly? wannabee inexperienced jumper brings a small camera on board.

Perhaps people would prefer that each DZ and DZO personally interviews each and every skydiver before they board the plane to make sure of their intentions, gear, experience, abilities, and a thorough review of all decision making processes to be involved in the jump prior to allowing anyone to make a skydive.

yep, that will save a lot of time and lives.....

Sounds like the DZ did all that and that he failed to tell anyone he was planning to take a camera onboard or on the skydive. Also no explanation about why he passed out when there was really no reason for him to have that problem due to an early activation.

I expect more to come on this, rather than try and speculate who is at fault here.


airdvr  (D 10977)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:36 AM
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Agreed. Seems this guy was looking for a reason to not jump.


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 11, 2013, 11:58 AM
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Re: [crotalus01] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Scott Lutz anyone? Crazy

This is no Scott Lutz, Lutz pulled his cutaway, then the AFFI dumped the boc to complete the sequence. Lot's of first jumps go south at pull time, nothing new there, it's Lutz's bull shit attitude and comments pandering to anyone that would listen that made Lutz the star he is today. The only semblance to Lutz the clutz was the post narration blaming everyone and anything else for perhaps, albit, an understandable situation...

If your trying to make a comparison; re the total lack of any personal responsibility and blame everyone else then that's a great observation.

You will notice this same behavior in Monteray as it is actually happining'. And this is precisly what seperates this scam artist from Lutz the clutz!

The pre-planing and intent will be obvious to any half witted insurance / Lawyer / any FAA / NTSB/ anyone who has been through this type of crap in their past. The unfortunate thing is how much damage both cash wize and reputation wize is this low life going to cause?? And I stongly suspect the gag orders have already gone out which makes getting any real info almost impossible at this point.!!

"I thought I saw him just lay down after landing..."

He obviously needed to get comfortable before he started his act!

The Go-Pro is also highly edited and you don't hear him respond to questions posed by the first people on the scene!!!

Unconscious individuals as a rule don't moan like they have a pole up their ass...

See this posting as well:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4442054#4442054


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Feb 11, 2013, 12:38 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 12:36 PM
Post #12 of 114 (9967 views)
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Re: [tkhayes] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Also no explanation about why he passed out when there was really no reason for him to have that problem due to an early activation.

In reply to:

That one has me scratching my head...could it be something ELSE is going on here?

Seemed fairly lucid after opening...what caused him to vapor lock afterwards??

Hope both an EKG & a piss test were performed during the recovery.


crotalus01  (B 28932)

Feb 11, 2013, 1:01 PM
Post #13 of 114 (9934 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

By the Lutz comparisom I was pointing out the lack of personal responsibilty, including his failure to initiate EPs, and the interview where he blames everyone and everything for his own stupidity...


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 11, 2013, 1:17 PM
Post #14 of 114 (9910 views)
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Re: [crotalus01] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Agreeed!

I was agreeing with you Dan? A good observation, I'm going a step further and pointing out that there is a lack of continuity and the information we have has been carefully edited to show only one side of a story!!

Did this happen in Aug of 2012?

Why hasen't the WHOLE tape been shown?
Why has this idiot carefully posted pictures everywhere on the web and only half of them out of an unknown total number been shown?
Why does the audio cut out on the ground?
There are a number, a really large number of things that stink here, in addition to the helmet he uses, this thing stinks like an ad for Go-Pro...
Two weeks in the hospital??? Prove it!
Some crappy pictures that show a hung slider??? I can't tell if they are actual pictures in sequence or not because of the shitty and misleading editing!

Your spot on here, see what else you can find??? Cause obviously he's prepping for a law suit...

This link, but I suspect this link isn't going to be around long cause when the FAA see's it they will be going after the news station...

http://cbssanfran.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/faa-report.pdf

I suspect he will be going after the school? Someone there might want to chime in on this??

Additionally he post's jump number 29, he says it's jump number 29 in the vid and then he posts jump number 30 all on utube in September of 2012???
So what waas jump number 30? Suppoosed crash on 9 Aug 2012 BUT well enough to post shit videos in the following week on utube, give me a fucking break!

And why can't he grab his left toggle? Because he is too busy filming himself v clearing his slider?

Please also note that this suppoosed report states that they "SAW" two broken lines!!!
BUT upon examination of the rig...WHOA the two lines are no longer broken??? Chain of custody???

This is the problem with this joke of a report! Hey if Nixion can get away with erasing tapes, why cant't flores get away with suspension lines that are not broken???

"No wind," it clearly states in the report, O'H more bull shit where is the section on current conditions. How about posting the fucking USPA report the S&TA is supposed to fill out??? BACK to the wind...did anyone notice the canopy draging his sorry ass right after the landing??? or did you notice it flying in the breeze, how many knots exactly to fly a canopy on the ground??? and than gently quaff to the ground behind him??

Take that report and put it where it will do the most good, in a landfill because it is useless.


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Feb 11, 2013, 4:16 PM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 11, 2013, 2:09 PM
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In reply to:
SmileYour spot on here, see what else you can find??? Cause obviously he's prepping for a law suit...

he's looking for attention, who is going to sue? Himself for being a dumb ass?


loch1957

Feb 11, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #16 of 114 (9804 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

OK maybe I'm missing something. Why would being under canopy at 13k be dangerous?


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Feb 11, 2013, 3:13 PM
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Re: [loch1957] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

FAA report attached.
Attachments: faa-report.pdf (530 KB)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 11, 2013, 3:17 PM
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After reading that report it is quite possible that he will try to sue and claim that the worn out gear was the cause. Although anyone with his "training" and "years" in the sport should have known how to inspect the gear Unsure

Unfortuntely this is a very sue happy country and people get away with ridiculous lawsuits all the time.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Feb 11, 2013, 3:32 PM
Post #19 of 114 (9719 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After reading that report it is quite possible that he will try to sue and claim that the worn out gear was the cause. Although anyone with his "training" and "years" in the sport should have known how to inspect the gear Unsure

Unfortuntely this is a very sue happy country and people get away with ridiculous lawsuits all the time.

The report still doesnt make much sense wrt the "knots".


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 11, 2013, 3:40 PM
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Re: [Remster] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably happened after he hit the dirt. Sometime between cutting the rig off of him and inspection.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Feb 11, 2013, 3:46 PM
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

It was unclear about the knots but I took it to mean the suspension lines had previously broken and were tied back together.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:00 PM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

That is how I understood it as well. Good thing that seal was missing on the rig or some rigger in CA would be in deep shit right now, based on that report.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:24 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Clearly the jumper caused a lot of the problem himself. Less discussed so far is the role of the gear.

The FAA report shows the gear was inspected by Allen Silver, a very well known rigger in the emergency parachute market for pilots. I'm not sure if he's at all involved in skydiving now, but apparently he has 3200+ jumps.

[Edit: removed question about source of FAA report. There's a link in the news article I now see.]

I guess Allen has very high standards. One wonders what he'd think of a lot of older student & rental gear out there! On the video it appears the gear is an Eclipse, so it will be an older set of gear.

(In his published documents, he believes all reserve parachutes should not be packed beyond 20 years of age ... at least when talking about rounds for pilots.)

The report says the container was worn "beyond serviceable limits". Same for the harness. Those are fairly major accusations. Maybe the DZ could have maintained the gear better, but the accusation is absolute. The report is so short and without graphics that we unfortunately don't have any evidence to help us understand Allen's criticism.

The description of the worn velcro on the main flap is a little vague. The Eclipse uses tuck tabs on the main pin cover flap, but there is velcro on the bottom flap apparently tucked under the right flap, to help secure the bridle on its way to the BOC. Maybe it was this velcro that was worn out.

But then no mention is made of the BOC condition, although it acknowledges that there was inconclusive evidence about the packing and placement of the PC in its pouch.

The report also notes that lines were "tied (knotted) in place on cells 4 and 5". Interesting indeed, although not further explained?!

The jumper was faced with a premature opening after only brief non-belly exposure, something that shouldn't happen even if it was inadvertent loss of stability. (Even non freefly friendly gear for novices isn't supposed to do that.) Unfortunately we don't know to what degree it really was gear condition vs. pilot chute packing related etc. The jumper may well have been faced with an emergency that was not his fault, even if he made poor decisions before, during and after the flight.

As for going unconscious:
I think new jumpers don't always get taught about how to make leg straps comfortable, as it is second nature to experienced jumpers. For students the emphasis tends to be on not having straps too loose, even if we might say to have them "tight but not so tight that they are cutting off circulation". That being said one doesn't know exactly why he lost consciousness.

Maybe I missed seeing an edit, but he opened at about 38s on the video, and his hand with the gopro dropped down at around 1:24 (very roughly). This might just be a convenient, unexplained edit point by the news station, but if it does represent him losing consciousness, that's only 45 or so seconds after opening. Then he'd be screwed even if he pulled at a normal altitude.


(This post was edited by pchapman on Feb 11, 2013, 5:07 PM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 11, 2013, 4:24 PM
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Re: [stratostar] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Well if that's the case that is pretty shitty. Another reason to own and maintain your own gear.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 11, 2013, 5:09 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Incidents thread started today on the same incident:
http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=4442054


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Feb 11, 2013, 5:10 PM
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The original story has/had? a link to the FAA report.


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Feb 11, 2013, 6:44 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Cross post from the incident thread quoting myself here.

Just to add some light on the incident. I was their the next day and heard from the first person on the scene and the manager, as well as everybody else that was working that day.

The velcro that is being listed is what is leftover from the rig previously being a leg throw-out.

Every person that rents gear is expressly told (I have briefed people this as well), that they are NOT to freefly in the rental gear.

Homeboy had been flying in the tunnel recently and wanted to show off his back flying madskillz.

SMB prohibits camera use by anybody with less that 200 jumps.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 11, 2013, 7:39 PM
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I can remember ever hearing of an FAA report of a NON-fatal skydiving incident which didn't involve an aircraft (collision, etc).

Anybody know WHY there is an FAA report?


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Feb 12, 2013, 1:48 AM
Post #29 of 114 (2456 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think I can remember ever hearing of an FAA report of a NON-fatal skydiving incident which didn't involve an aircraft (collision, etc).

How soon we forget.

Remember when Grandma " almost " fell from her tandem harness?


vikki_shadow  (C 106651)

Feb 12, 2013, 2:23 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a link to the raw video

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...g-of-skydive-mishap/

*edit to make link clicky


(This post was edited by vikki_shadow on Feb 12, 2013, 2:24 AM)


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 12, 2013, 5:05 AM
Post #31 of 114 (2372 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't think I can remember ever hearing of an FAA report of a NON-fatal skydiving incident which didn't involve an aircraft (collision, etc).

How soon we forget.

Remember when Grandma " almost " fell from her tandem harness?

Fair enough. However, that doesn't answer my question.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Feb 12, 2013, 8:02 AM
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Cutting the rig offMad

That should never happen.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 12, 2013, 9:01 AM
Post #33 of 114 (2275 views)
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In reply to:
Cutting the rig offMad

That should never happen.

Usually doesn't with B12's...Wink


ShcShc11  (A 15638)

Feb 12, 2013, 9:11 AM
Post #34 of 114 (2269 views)
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Re: [vikki_shadow] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Here's a link to the raw video

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...g-of-skydive-mishap/

*edit to make link clicky

Was it the leg-straps that made him unconscious?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 12, 2013, 10:16 AM
Post #35 of 114 (2211 views)
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Re: [ShcShc11] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

my vote on a more likely cause of unconsciousness goes to thick hoodie coupled with chest strap up around his neck.


TsunamiGilligan  (C 41364)

Feb 12, 2013, 10:42 AM
Post #36 of 114 (2198 views)
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Re: [loch1957] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
OK maybe I'm missing something. Why would being under canopy at 13k be dangerous?
There's nothing dangerous about a planned high opening, so long as you are the last group out and have stated your intentions to the pilot and fellow jumpers. CRW jumpers open high all the time.

The danger is in unexpectedly opening high and having someone freefall in to your open canopy. Or if you don't have the right spot, the winds aloft might make it hard to get back. This guy was probably instructed not to open above 6K to avoid those things.


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Feb 12, 2013, 11:10 AM
Post #37 of 114 (2157 views)
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anybody know WHY there is an FAA report?

Good question.

Someone contacted the FSDO office to prompt an FAA investigation.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 12, 2013, 11:24 AM
Post #38 of 114 (2143 views)
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Re: [sky4meplease] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you know the FAA was contacted? How do you know or not know if an FAA inspector was not standing on the airfield at the time this happened? Did you know that if an inspector is on a airport they are free to ramp check or inspect anything they want to on the airfield.... even a crash landing of a jumper.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 12, 2013, 11:38 AM
Post #39 of 114 (2126 views)
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Re: [vikki_shadow] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

After watching the raw footage, I have concluded that "dude" made multiple mistakes:
1. He snuck a Go-Pro onboard
2. He did not pre-plan exit order
3. His left strap was loose, because it was not riding high in his crotch (pre-exit)
4. He back-flew
5. He only released his right steering toggle.


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 12, 2013, 12:18 PM
Post #40 of 114 (2092 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

I knew I had seen/ read all about this guy somewhere else:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3894693#3894693

Now another for DSEs' List!!!
C


sky4meplease  (D 30360)

Feb 12, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #41 of 114 (2046 views)
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In reply to:
How do you know the FAA was contacted? How do you know or not know if an FAA inspector was not standing on the airfield at the time this happened? Did you know that if an inspector is on a airport they are free to ramp check or inspect anything they want to on the airfield.... even a crash landing of a jumper.

I suppose there is a chance an FAA inspector just happened to be standing on the airfield watching this guy make one poor decision after another.

Now lets pretend he wasn't there ( however unlikely ). Then someone would have had to contact the FSDO to prompt an investigation into an aviation related accident.

Hell maybe the jump pilot radioing ATC or other traffic in the area that there was a canopy descending from 10,000 feet prompted a call.

That call could have come from a number of different sources.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 12, 2013, 2:09 PM
Post #42 of 114 (2029 views)
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In reply to:
How do you know the FAA was contacted? How do you know or not know if an FAA inspector was not standing on the airfield at the time this happened? Did you know that if an inspector is on a airport they are free to ramp check or inspect anything they want to on the airfield.... even a crash landing of a jumper.

I suppose there is a chance an FAA inspector just happened to be standing on the airfield watching this guy make one poor decision after another.

Now lets pretend he wasn't there ( however unlikely ). Then someone would have had to contact the FSDO to prompt an investigation into an aviation related accident.

Hell maybe the jump pilot radioing ATC or other traffic in the area that there was a canopy descending from 10,000 feet prompted a call.

That call could have come from a number of different sources.

EMT's maybe?


grimmie  (D 18890)

Feb 12, 2013, 2:25 PM
Post #43 of 114 (2011 views)
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Not the EMT's, but more probable the PD.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 12, 2013, 2:38 PM
Post #44 of 114 (1994 views)
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In reply to:
Not the EMT's, but more probable the PD.


...might be SOP for them.


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 12, 2013, 4:19 PM
Post #45 of 114 (1946 views)
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Maybe the pilot filed an ANSR report to cover his ass for dropping that unsealed rig? There are many questions left unanswered as too how all of this went down.

Did the family of dumbass call the FSDO? If they did the FAA is required to respond.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Feb 12, 2013, 6:17 PM
Post #46 of 114 (1885 views)
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Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, passes out shortly after opening and lands on the grass, on the airport, near the runway? And he videos the whole thing?
Doesn't pass the smell test...


stratostar  (Student)

Feb 12, 2013, 8:20 PM
Post #47 of 114 (1824 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you mean? I'm surprised to see so many jumpers not believing a uncontrolled canopy can or would hit the dz LZ.

Sorry it can happen I've seen it a number of times, the last one I was on radio and the dude died in FF check in and then he really checked out the way down... canopy opened @ 5K and drifted in circles and landed pretty much on the dz, only dead as dead can be, not one control input and the toggles still stowed. So nothing all that surprising about it.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Feb 12, 2013, 9:33 PM)


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Feb 12, 2013, 8:52 PM
Post #48 of 114 (1808 views)
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What do you mean? I'm surprised to see so many jumpers not believing a uncontrolled canopy can or would hit the dz LZ.

he didn't hit the lz, he did hit near the main hanger. The lz and the hangar are at opposite ends of the runway from each other. just to clarify.

edit: wording


(This post was edited by jtiflyer on Feb 12, 2013, 8:55 PM)


Divalent  (C 40494)

Feb 12, 2013, 8:54 PM
Post #49 of 114 (1805 views)
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In reply to:
Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, passes out shortly after opening and lands on the grass, on the airport, near the runway? And he videos the whole thing?
Doesn't pass the smell test...

Watch the video (from 3 minute mark until he lands at about the 16 minute mark). It does sound unbelievable, but the video will convince you it actually happened. He is one lucky sob.


piisfish

Feb 13, 2013, 1:15 AM
Post #50 of 114 (1731 views)
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In reply to:
Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, ...
IIRC he has around 10 seconds of freefall before the premature opening. What is the normal jumping altitude over there ? Smile


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 13, 2013, 3:12 AM
Post #51 of 114 (2655 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, ...
IIRC he has around 10 seconds of freefall before the premature opening. What is the normal jumping altitude over there ? Smile

14k which is fairly normal would give you about 10 seconds of freefall to 13k...


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Feb 13, 2013, 7:44 PM
Post #52 of 114 (2394 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, ...
IIRC he has around 10 seconds of freefall before the premature opening. What is the normal jumping altitude over there ? Smile

14k which is fairly normal would give you about 10 seconds of freefall to 13k...

normal altis are 15 and 18 at SMB


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 13, 2013, 8:25 PM
Post #53 of 114 (2371 views)
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Re: [jtiflyer] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, ...
IIRC he has around 10 seconds of freefall before the premature opening. What is the normal jumping altitude over there ? Smile

14k which is fairly normal would give you about 10 seconds of freefall to 13k...

normal altis are 15 and 18 at SMB

Sorry I realised my post was misleading. What I mean't is that the 'industry norm' of 14k gives about 10 seconds to 13k.

If they do 15-18k, I wonder if hypoxia could be part of the reason he initially blacked out?


jtiflyer  (D 27430)

Feb 13, 2013, 10:02 PM
Post #54 of 114 (2322 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Let me see if I have a proper understanding of this event. This guy jumps out, has a premature opening at 13000, ...
IIRC he has around 10 seconds of freefall before the premature opening. What is the normal jumping altitude over there ? Smile

14k which is fairly normal would give you about 10 seconds of freefall to 13k...

normal altis are 15 and 18 at SMB

Sorry I realised my post was misleading. What I mean't is that the 'industry norm' of 14k gives about 10 seconds to 13k.

If they do 15-18k, I wonder if hypoxia could be part of the reason he initially blacked out?

not likely. its only 6 minutes to 15 and around 9 to 18


parachutist  (D 25468)

Feb 13, 2013, 10:11 PM
Post #55 of 114 (2320 views)
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In reply to:
If they do 15-18k, I wonder if hypoxia could be part of the reason he initially blacked out?

not likely. its only 6 minutes to 15 and around 9 to 18

It makes a bit of sense. He's chatting and "woop"ing from the time he turns the camera on, til about 1:00... where he's apparently hyperventilating (not good in thin air). Then he's yelling loud enough to hear it in freefall, then talking loud after the canopy opens. Basically he's putting a lot of thin air into his system. Since he has only 30 jumps in 2 years, he's not very acclimated to altitudes (unless he's been travelling and mountain hiking). I'm sure his heart is pumping fast because he's excited/scared. Doesn't look like he's been doing much aerobic exercise. I think Nigel hit it on the head.

Chris


jf951  (D License)

Feb 14, 2013, 2:10 AM
Post #56 of 114 (2262 views)
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perfect opportunity to use the new inline photo attachments



WTF this idiots talking into the camera like hes on Lettermen while he thinks hes having a malfunction!
i'd put money that the thread after this one is going to be a 36 jump wonder telling us a camera isnt a distraction at all.
Attachments: WTF-Picard-meme.jpg (41.5 KB)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Feb 14, 2013, 3:00 AM
Post #57 of 114 (2247 views)
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Re: [stratostar] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What do you mean? I'm surprised to see so many jumpers not believing a uncontrolled canopy can or would hit the dz LZ.

Sorry it can happen I've seen it a number of times, the last one I was on radio and the dude died in FF check in and then he really checked out the way down... canopy opened @ 5K and drifted in circles and landed pretty much on the dz, only dead as dead can be, not one control input and the toggles still stowed. So nothing all that surprising about it.

Now THAT is spotting!


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 14, 2013, 6:10 AM
Post #58 of 114 (2202 views)
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Would the USA ever allow the USPA to actually govern the sport, by making rules instead of guidelines?

USPA does have "rules", called Basic Safety REQUIREMENTS". However USPA is not a government agency and can't make rules enforceable by any entity other than itself. In other words, skydiving in the US is mainly self-regulated and that system has worked very well.

The last thing we need is government regulations created by people who don't understand the first thing about parachutes or staying alive while using them.


wayneflorida  (D 30566)

Feb 14, 2013, 8:29 AM
Post #59 of 114 (2136 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
What do you mean? I'm surprised to see so many jumpers not believing a uncontrolled canopy can or would hit the dz LZ.

Sorry it can happen I've seen it a number of times, the last one I was on radio and the dude died in FF check in and then he really checked out the way down... canopy opened @ 5K and drifted in circles and landed pretty much on the dz, only dead as dead can be, not one control input and the toggles still stowed. So nothing all that surprising about it.

Now THAT is spotting!

Nah, just a rare canopy called The Homing Canopy.


bp-dtmr

Feb 14, 2013, 9:51 AM
Post #60 of 114 (2079 views)
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30 jumps in two years is not a lot of currency.
Frankly, he should have cut away from a clear malfunction.
The full raw video can be found at:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...g-of-skydive-mishap/

Epic fail of an amateur skydiver more concerned with his video than dealing with the real situation.


(This post was edited by bp-dtmr on Feb 14, 2013, 10:02 AM)


bp-dtmr

Feb 14, 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #61 of 114 (2062 views)
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If you observe the mal at 2:53 with the slider locked up on the left side and it's further observed that he's pulling down hard on the right toggle to stop the spin to the left to no avail and passes out.
Attachments: images.jpg (7.57 KB)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 14, 2013, 10:48 AM
Post #62 of 114 (2041 views)
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Quote:
In other words, skydiving in the US is mainly self-regulated and that system has worked very well.

Really? Yes it's been self regulated but it doesn't really work all that well at a lot of dz's.


(This post was edited by Mr_Polite on Feb 14, 2013, 10:49 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 14, 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #63 of 114 (2019 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
In other words, skydiving in the US is mainly self-regulated and that system has worked very well.

Really? Yes it's been self regulated but it doesn't really work all that well at a lot of dz's.

You may make think not...but it's actually pretty good now - ya should have been here 25 years ago! CrazyWink


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 14, 2013, 2:32 PM
Post #64 of 114 (1955 views)
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You may make think not...but it's actually pretty good now - ya should have been here 25 years ago! CrazyWink
Twenty-five years ago? That's when some DZ's student gear was only 5 years old. There's some real garage sale gutter gear floating around as rentals at some DZ's. My son described some rental gear at an unnamed DZ to me and I told him not to jump there anymore. Unimpressed


(This post was edited by JohnMitchell on Feb 14, 2013, 2:32 PM)


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 14, 2013, 6:09 PM
Post #65 of 114 (1894 views)
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In reply to:

You may make think not...but it's actually pretty good now - ya should have been here 25 years ago! CrazyWink

35 years ago, we were jumpen shit the military didn't want anymore. Duh! Wink
Rental gear (or any gear for that matter) doesn't have to be new. It'd be nice if it was airworthy though?


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 14, 2013, 6:47 PM
Post #66 of 114 (1870 views)
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 ...doesn't have to be new. It'd be nice if it was airworthy though?

Picky Picky Picky! CrazyTongue


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 15, 2013, 7:20 AM
Post #67 of 114 (1724 views)
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Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a645Wx_ymsA

Flores, according to the utube vids' that he has now removed started in 2010.

The DZ is at this point not answereing their phone, or perhaps better said not answereing any questions about this liar and deceptive individual!

I want to remind everyone that he intentionally lied and decived everyone there in CA. I find it hard to understand the many comments regarding the DZ has responsibility for this lier's decitful actions!


Krip  (Student)

Feb 15, 2013, 9:07 AM
Post #68 of 114 (1676 views)
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Reminds me of the slip and fall people in the grocery store.

Then they roll the video and the scam artist is using a squirt bottle to lube the tile. To slip on. "Clean up on aisle 6"Sly

I almost felt sorry for the dude when he was being interviewed for the news clip in a outdoor cafe. The look on the dudes face was priceless as he retold his story.

Do they have a lot of wanna be actors in the bay area?


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 15, 2013, 9:34 AM
Post #69 of 114 (1652 views)
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In reply to:
I want to remind everyone that he intentionally lied and decived everyone there in CA. I find it hard to understand the many comments regarding the DZ has responsibility for this lier's decitful actions!

Chris, I do not know the whole story! But, what you, me, DZO's, and every skydiver boarding an aircraft need to realize is this...
This shit is ending up on video! If there is anything that would appear to have the ability to draw negative attention to you, it will!


This is the lesson to be learned here. As I said up thread, dot your I's and cross your T's.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 15, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #70 of 114 (1576 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I want to remind everyone that he intentionally lied and decived everyone there in CA. I find it hard to understand the many comments regarding the DZ has responsibility for this lier's decitful actions!

Chris, I do not know the whole story! But, what you, me, DZO's, and every skydiver boarding an aircraft need to realize is this...
This shit is ending up on video! If there is anything that would appear to have the ability to draw negative attention to you, it will!


This is the lesson to be learned here. As I said up thread, dot your I's and cross your T's.

...........................................................................

You are pointing towards a scary, slippery slope ... no more jokes onboard the airplane ... manifest ... no wait a minute: the DZ's senior-most rigger rigidly inspecting every visiting rig and grounding many long before the FAA (or manufacturers) ... etc.
No linked exits ...
Ending in "fun-jumping" being banished from tandem-factories ... errrr ... DZs.
Scary!


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Feb 15, 2013, 1:13 PM
Post #71 of 114 (1565 views)
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i think the experienced jumpers should have made sure that the video never got recorded Wink in actuality though, there are some horrifying videos that make it onto the internet that should have just been deleted upon landing.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 15, 2013, 1:20 PM
Post #72 of 114 (1558 views)
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True; but a video that highlights the douchebagness of the taker is kind of just payment. It should not highlight other problems, which can then detract from the douchebag statement.

And gear that a novice (or anyone else, really) rents should be more like a test designed to pass, rather than a test designed to fail. Just like aircraft should be well enough maintained that, while jumpers can question the DZO, they don't have to.

When you say "this rig is not intended for any specific use" you shouldn't really mean it Unimpressed

Wendy P.


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Feb 15, 2013, 1:33 PM
Post #73 of 114 (1546 views)
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i agree its awesome for us to see him being a dbag blow up in his face, but for the image of the sport in the FAA/publics eyes its not in our best interests.

i also agree that any gear that is for use by others should be maintained, but in this type of sport i feel the ultimate responsibility for personal safety lies with the end user (douchebag in this case). its similiar to if you only use packers and then complain about a malfunction you had.


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Feb 15, 2013, 1:53 PM
Post #74 of 114 (1527 views)
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The ultimate responsibility is the jumper's, and yes, a novice is still a licensed jumper. When you were 16, how much did you know about your car, or did your parents maintain it for you?

I'd prefer to see more encouraging of jumpers, particularly younger ones, to question things. But right now it slows things down, and lots of operations (including the other jumpers on the load who want the aircraft to take off) don't encourage it for real stuff. As a learning thing, absolutely, but not when you've picked up the rental rig and are heading to the airplane.

Wendy P.


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 15, 2013, 8:20 PM
Post #75 of 114 (1455 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I want to remind everyone that he intentionally lied and decived everyone there in CA. I find it hard to understand the many comments regarding the DZ has responsibility for this lier's decitful actions!

Chris, I do not know the whole story! But, what you, me, DZO's, and every skydiver boarding an aircraft need to realize is this...
This shit is ending up on video! If there is anything that would appear to have the ability to draw negative attention to you, it will!


This is the lesson to be learned here. As I said up thread, dot your I's and cross your T's.

We figured that one out 25+ years ago as far as performing demonstration jumps...don't do anything you wouldn't want shown on the 6 o'clock news.

Almost 'EVERYTHING' is on a video somewhere when doing demos, and ya REALLY gotta watch those long lens guys - I got asked about a pic of me, head out the door of a '3 just after rotation...yes there was a seat-belt on the floor, it WAS through my keg-strap.

Be aware - you ARE on candid camera! Sly


kuai43  (C License)

Feb 16, 2013, 2:22 AM
Post #76 of 114 (2765 views)
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In reply to:
Almost 'EVERYTHING' is on a video somewhere when doing demos, and ya REALLY gotta watch those long lens guys - I got asked about a pic of me, head out the door of a '3 just after rotation...yes there was a seat-belt on the floor, it WAS through my keg-strap.

Be aware - you ARE on candid camera! Sly

As long as you didn't lose the keg, there should be no questioning your judgment. Cool


kuai43  (C License)

Feb 16, 2013, 2:24 AM
Post #77 of 114 (2761 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Almost 'EVERYTHING' is on a video somewhere when doing demos, and ya REALLY gotta watch those long lens guys - I got asked about a pic of me, head out the door of a '3 just after rotation...yes there was a seat-belt on the floor, it WAS through my keg-strap.

Be aware - you ARE on candid camera! Sly

As long as you didn't lose the keg, there should be no questioning your judgment. Cool

Just make sure you have B-12s for quick deployment.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 16, 2013, 8:55 AM
Post #78 of 114 (2718 views)
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In reply to:


You are pointing towards a scary, slippery slope ... no more jokes onboard the airplane ... manifest ... no wait a minute: the DZ's senior-most rigger rigidly inspecting every visiting rig and grounding many long before the FAA (or manufacturers) ... etc.
No linked exits ...
Ending in "fun-jumping" being banished from tandem-factories ... errrr ... DZs.
Scary!

I think most (myself included) will agree with you. But, the fact remains, if you do something stupid, it will end up on U-tube. Unsure


RyanFYF  (C 41792)

Feb 16, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #79 of 114 (2705 views)
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Attachments: aintnobody.jpg (29.7 KB)


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 18, 2013, 2:55 AM
Post #80 of 114 (2530 views)
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It is funny people get all upset when the sport is portayed as 'almost unregulated' and pretty much every attempt to introduce regulation meets a large amount of resistnace.

I hadn't looked at the BSR's for a while, but this incident made me revisit them. Sorry but when the sporting body (USPA) regulations are so lax that a student off AFF level 7 no longer needs supervison by an instructor the system is broken. Once a student has proven their ability to regain stability within 5 seconds the USPA cuts them loose.

Sorry the guy may be an arsehole, but he did nothing outside the rules. In fact from a USPA point of view he could take 20 of his buddies with shitty gear, go pros and 10 jumps each and attempt a head down bigway, and the jump wouldn't breach a single BSR.

If you want to have "the wild west" with no rules, fine, but then be grown up enough to tell the media to fuck off because you are big boys who don't need them. Don't go bitching that the media got it wrong...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 18, 2013, 6:40 AM
Post #81 of 114 (2476 views)
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In reply to:
If you want to have "the wild west" with no rules, fine, but then be grown up enough to tell the media to fuck off because you are big boys who don't need them. Don't go bitching that the media got it wrong...

OK, how about this... The media over sensationalized one side of a multi-faceted story. They completely ignored what I believe to be their journalistic responsibility to investigate and print the WHOLE truth to the best of their ability. I’m so fricking naive, right? No-body is responsible for anything anymore. Unsure


waveoff5500  (D 32087)

Feb 18, 2013, 8:59 AM
Post #82 of 114 (2408 views)
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being in mechanical engineering i feel i had a bit more interest in my car when i was 16 than some might have Wink i understand what youre saying partially. but if someone doesnt have the ability to step up and ask something about a device that is saving their lives then i dont have much to say. does it slow things down sometimes? yes. would it help eliminate the general public from seeing stories like this one and putting the sport in a better light? absolutely. fact is stuff will continue to happen but we arent aiding ourselves or anyone else by accepting that as a constant and laying back without doing anything.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Feb 18, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #83 of 114 (2301 views)
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In reply to:
You may not like the reporting style but the fact of the matter is they told the cold hard truth about our industry and it's lack of oversight.

USPA is a joke on publishing safety! USPA taking action to "clean up" the industry is a joke! Every little write up in parashitty about safety and "doing the right thing" is all a line of BULLSHIT! USPA is full of hypocrites and has a long history of turning a blind eye and sweeping shit under the rug to cover up for the good old boy network. FACT!

USPA is fucking joke on upholding the GM pledge! And the only real good coming out of HQ is the office of Randy Ottinger and his work on airport access the rest of it is all window dressing and total bullshit being conducted by a handful of hypocrites.

If you don't like the facts being pointed out in the media then maybe you should work harder to change that.... USPA seems to think their marketing dollars are well spent with all the fluffy stories.... but don't want own up to or print the information they get about rogue operators that is proven by the FAA and the NTSB to be true and factual!

Nope USPA leadership from the top down would choose to lie and misinform the membership while protecting those rouge operators by not publishing the facts, but rather USPA would choose to spend membership dues to try to claim FAA inspectors are in cahoots with disgruntled skydivers to frame operators in the industry, despite a a huge mountain of proven facts. And USPA would make a formulated plan to attempt to throw an FAA inspector, who was a USPA member of 35 yrs and additional USPA members under the bus in a lame attempt to sweep shit under the rug.

This is not the first time USPA has taken such actions towards USPA members and it will not be the last time.

All it will take is one major skydiving disaster with a bunch of violations as the cause and with all the FOIA documents out there floating around proving how USPA has been doing this shit for years, can and will prove everything that was said in this story as to lack of oversight and those are in fact foxes guarding the hen house.


Dang I muts have missed your name on the ballot...Next time I will be sure and vote for you, you are running again right? TongueCool




nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 18, 2013, 11:37 PM
Post #85 of 114 (2165 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
I hadn't looked at the BSR's for a while, but this incident made me revisit them. Sorry but when the sporting body (USPA) regulations are so lax that a student off AFF level 7 no longer needs supervison by an instructor the system is broken. Once a student has proven their ability to regain stability within 5 seconds the USPA cuts them loose.

Truck on back to your nanny state with that nonsense.

That has been working just fine for 40 years, and it's the same process that created the instructors that taught you.

Considering that at least one of the instructors that originally taught me, would smoke dope prior to the load with students on that probably isn't the best example to setLaugh

As to the person who taught me recurrency under the USPA system (popsjumper), well you know what he's likeAngelicTongue


Bertt  (D 99999)

Feb 19, 2013, 3:19 PM
Post #86 of 114 (1977 views)
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not replying to anybody in particular, just to the issue of a self-regulated industry -
The BP Macondo well blew out and killed 11 people in a highly regulated industry. Skydiving's not doing all that bad.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 19, 2013, 8:12 PM
Post #87 of 114 (1853 views)
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What does that have to do with anything?


obelixtim  (D 84)

Feb 20, 2013, 1:25 AM
Post #88 of 114 (1809 views)
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In reply to:
What does that have to do with anything?

Regulation doesn't beat stupidity.....


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 20, 2013, 5:45 AM
Post #89 of 114 (1744 views)
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No probably not but that still doesn't change the fact that he is allowed to jump a camera at 30 jumps. There is no "regulation" in place, just a recommendation. And really the camera had nothing to do with this incident, it just let us see what actually happened. If he wasn't wearing it all we would be doing is speculating, atleast we get to see what happened.


jclalor  (B 33202)

Feb 20, 2013, 7:23 AM
Post #90 of 114 (1694 views)
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Re: [kuai43] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I don't know if this had been posted yet... Pretty funny shit.



http://youtu.be/a645Wx_ymsA


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 20, 2013, 7:53 AM
Post #91 of 114 (1684 views)
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In reply to:
No probably not but that still doesn't change the fact that he is allowed to jump a camera at 30 jumps. There is no "regulation" in place, just a recommendation. And really the camera had nothing to do with this incident, it just let us see what actually happened. If he wasn't wearing it all we would be doing is speculating, at least we get to see what happened.

"ALLOWED," dude, Smile

What part of he wasn't allowed, he actually went to great lengths to hide this little tidbit of knowledge from everyone there. This of course for you dullards out there indicates he knew what he was doing was against the rules, he resorted to a deception (he lied.) in order to do this!

Are you also aware that he supported a used gear franchise? He and his close associates are more than familiar with gear and equipment! WAKE THE FUCK UP !! You all are being taken for the ride of the century here!

DSE,...as you point out your ”eventual outcome” is just one possible scenario,...the problem is as you point out, and the only thing you have correct,...is the fact that this issue will someday "go away."

The problem is regarding your wishful thinking answer is that how is this going to go away??? Thinking that a waiver is a magic shield that is going to protect skydiving from an opportunist such as
Flores and his legal team, and all we have to do to protect ourselves is just wave it around like some kind of flag …I’m sorry it’s naive and just plain old wishful thinking. It is not what is going to happen…

UNFORTUNATLY THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN:

Most of these types of issues are resolved by the skydiving entity filing bankruptcy, or in the event they reach an out of court settlement they as a condition of the settlement agree to a non-disclosure agreement as part of that settlement! This is why the widely held stereotype is that issues just go away; they don’t go away they get hidden! The public then understandably just thinks things go away! You said it not me, I just think you ought to understand the psychology and why so many people hold this view.

Most of the time the small business DZ is pressured by the extortion placed upon them by the Plaintiffs lawyer (That’s Mr. Flores, which was his intention all along.) indicating that as part of their legal strategy they are going to run their legal defense bills into the tens of thousands of dollars! (Ever been involved in a lawsuit? Perhaps your response, or better said only those who have actually been thru this nightmare should respond? Because tens of thousands is just a drop in the bucket.) The big ticket is the land or any assets the DZ may now currently hold. Because at this point any changing of hands of cash or land or assets is viewed as a civil infraction; an intentional attempt to hide assets…are you guys out there now getting the picture??? The law, in the name of: everyone is entitled to their rights, their day in court, works by public perception and extortion. Which is fine if both parties have “deep pockets,” who has deep pockets in this industry???

In other words this is a serious issue with large amounts of cash and assets involved. People have worked hard at establishing their business’s and engaging in activities they love. Mr. Flores has engaged in a plan and a course of action, well before the news was duped into participating in this little drama. He will get rich, another skydiving business will shut down,…and ya your right, this whole thing will go away….
Pirate


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 20, 2013, 10:22 AM
Post #92 of 114 (1619 views)
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In reply to:
..... And really the camera had nothing to do with this incident, it just let us see what actually happened. If he wasn't wearing it all we would be doing is speculating, atleast we get to see what happened.

So, the fact that he was so busy filming his little skydive that he forgot (or was too occupied) to deal with a serious malfunction/problem had nothing to do with his HIDDEN small format camera? Seriously?

I don't mean to sound rude, but, get your fricken head out of the sand! Yes, there are lots of issues here to be dealt with. But Flores is responsible for the large majority of these issues. It was in his power to eleminate every one of these problems. But, he was too busy hidding his little camera under his glove. Unsure

Now he's facing flack for his part in this incident? That works for me!!!!


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Feb 20, 2013, 11:05 AM)


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Feb 20, 2013, 11:20 AM
Post #93 of 114 (1586 views)
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Yes he responsible 100% for himself. Whether he had the camera or not this would have been the same incident. He may have had the camera "hidden" in his glove but I do not believe that nobody at the dz saw this. He was clearly showing it to an instructor or coach on some of his other jumps on Youtube.

Honestly though we are all adults and because jumping a camera isn't an actual rule there is nothing anyone can really say. Sure if you're the DZO or S&TA you can ban it from YOUR dz but if another doesn't care then that's their business.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 20, 2013, 4:34 PM
Post #94 of 114 (1508 views)
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In reply to:
UNFORTUNATLY THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN:

Most of these types of issues are resolved by the skydiving entity filing bankruptcy, or in the event they reach an out of court settlement they as a condition of the settlement agree to a non-disclosure agreement as part of that settlement! This is why the widely held stereotype is that issues just go away; they don’t go away they get hidden! The public then understandably just thinks things go away! You said it not me, I just think you ought to understand the psychology and why so many people hold this view.

Most of the time the small business DZ is pressured by the extortion placed upon them by the Plaintiffs lawyer (That’s Mr. Flores, which was his intention all along.) indicating that as part of their legal strategy they are going to run their legal defense bills into the tens of thousands of dollars! (Ever been involved in a lawsuit? Perhaps your response, or better said only those who have actually been thru this nightmare should respond? Because tens of thousands is just a drop in the bucket.) The big ticket is the land or any assets the DZ may now currently hold. Because at this point any changing of hands of cash or land or assets is viewed as a civil infraction; an intentional attempt to hide assets…are you guys out there now getting the picture??? The law, in the name of: everyone is entitled to their rights, their day in court, works by public perception and extortion. Which is fine if both parties have “deep pockets,” who has deep pockets in this industry???

In other words this is a serious issue with large amounts of cash and assets involved. People have worked hard at establishing their business’s and engaging in activities they love. Mr. Flores has engaged in a plan and a course of action, well before the news was duped into participating in this little drama. He will get rich, another skydiving business will shut down,…and ya your right, this whole thing will go away….
Pirate

I wanted to quote all this so that when it doesn't happen, you'll owe me a Dr. Pepper.Wink

Ummm....google my name and copyright. You'll see where me n' Disney/Buena Vista got into it (I won) and where me and Virgin got into it (I also won)Tongue Yep...been there, done that. And even got hysterical about it when I was younger.
I don't know what Flores motivations were, and neither does anyone else except perhaps him and his mistress. What we do know is that he didn't act within the boundaries of what we believe his training to have taught him, and we only know that because he concealed a camera.
The concealment of the camera itself is very suspicious, that's for certain. The other thing that's certain is that this legal issue won't be won nor lost on DZ.com, but the hysteria is likely helping Flores' legal cause.


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 20, 2013, 7:11 PM
Post #95 of 114 (1453 views)
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Smile

I'll send ya a case, either way.

Jerry B., in another forum, I think he hangs out in the "Gear" section Cool brings up just one of the issues that everyone has also "forgotten" about and that being the alleged "stolen" FAA memo dosen't mention the reserve data card / sheet or whatever we call that thingy..

This memo is going to go down in history for what it dosen't mention...

The card is just one example of just how biased stuff has become. The wording and phraseology could have indicated that in fact it was in compliance and they (FAA) did check the reserve repack cycle on paper. But I guess we will never know???

Should we have to have red thread on our sport rigs? (Excluding all of us who have ex-wives, I know the answere to that one.)


What's more important: the card, the seal ?

Anyways thanks for the reminder to be civil, I guess that's why your the moderator...Unsure
C

Perhaps someone could ask the FAA? They really do listen when large amounts of mail find there way to their doorstep...


Krip  (Student)

Feb 20, 2013, 8:37 PM
Post #96 of 114 (1419 views)
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 The other thing that's certain is that this legal issue won't be won nor lost on DZ.com, but the hysteria is likely helping Flores' legal cause.
+1.

IOW STFU.

Pass the cheese.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 20, 2013, 9:18 PM
Post #97 of 114 (1378 views)
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Quote:
Perhaps someone could ask the FAA?

Instead of just yakking away here, I also went up a level and did send a couple brief & respectful notes on the web to Allen Silver a week back, and just now sent a longer letter on the web to the San Jose FSDO who issued the report.

I haven't heard back from Mr. Silver, but I suggested I understood it if he wanted to lay low and not get further dragged into this whole argument online. Nevertheless, I did want to make it clear to him that his name is associated with a shoddy report, which perhaps he had only limited control over -- a sort of situation that could be troubling to any rigger.

I thought it was worth telling the FSDO what kind of effect the report was having. Perhaps it was meant for internal purposes only, and became public through a FOIA request ... I don't know. But when the media and lawyers start quoting it as a seemingly authoritative report, one could easily see the FSDO as having some responsibility to try to set matters a little more straight. Serious accusations could use some serious evidence.


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Feb 21, 2013, 5:54 AM
Post #98 of 114 (1258 views)
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In reply to:
What's more important: the card, the seal ?

They are both important. The person who has the most to lose if you are not in compliance with F.A.R. 105.43a (reserve repack in 180 days) is the pilot of the aircraft. You can jump without the card and seal, but the pilot probably won't allow it as his ass is on the line. The FAA probably wont go after you, but they will ground the pilot if they feel he didn't take the proper steps to insure the regulations were being followed.


377  (F 666)

Feb 21, 2013, 7:28 AM
Post #99 of 114 (1221 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Am I the only one who thinks it's wrong for the FAA regs to make the pilot responsible for every jumper having legal gear (TSOd gear and current reserve) and making a legal jump (eg no cloud punching)?

PI plaintiffs lawyers love it. The jumpships are usually insured even if the DZ is not. That makes every pilot a deep pocket defendant. You'd be amazed to see what happens as a result. I know of a case from the 1970s where the jumpship pilot was sued for a student riding a malfunctions in all the way and ending up paralysed. The aircraft insuror paid big bucks. The student rig was packed by someone who wasn't a licensed rigger. How the hell would the pilot be able to tell who packed the main???

Should airline pilots be liable for hijackings? It's illegal to board with a concealed weapon. It's an exaggerated analogy but it illustrates my point.

I don't want to see FAA licensing of jumpers, but it's unfair to make the pilot potentially liable for anyone who boards with an outdated reserve or leaves over clouds.

377


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 21, 2013, 8:47 AM
Post #100 of 114 (1188 views)
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Smile

377 makes some good points. Many FAA regs are in response to a public outcry and date from the 30s', they were not written in the context of skydiving today!

You also raise the issue of who is responsible, ultimatly for the "red thread" issue in this case.

Or perhaps we should rephrase this a little?

Who was the last person who had physical custody of this rig? Of course you can speculate that the police or whoever undid the seal? Which is very unlikely or you can do what Flores is going to do , well he has already done it hasen't he, AND say that "that was the condition that it was given to me,..."

Just like the pilot, the FAA seems to be implying that someone else is responsible,...for a rig that others had no control over! Funny how this works????

I belive that the news agency quote that I personnaly find most disturbing was when the announcer stated, and this is a direct quote:

"Skydivers,...appear to be attempting to deflect responsibility away from the school..."

He was cleared for self supervision,...the whole airline industry currently runs on the FAA doctrine of self supervision as far as the vast majority of regulations are concerned, aircraft systems are very complex, maintinance "pulsing," scheduling, etc...but apperently the media has chosen to take sides rather than report or verify who is ultimatly responsible for one's own safety.

Student / rental gear gets checked, literally hundreds of times, student gear gets checked so frequently that the gear itself shows these same wear signs and scuff marks. Your asking the skydiving public to accept the fact that this DZ and literally 20 to 30 individuals, instructors, coaches, and the packers missed the missing seal? AND other skydivers who willingly give a multitude of pin checks and all of a sudden the seal is missing? Either your speaking about a massive conspiracy of epic proportions with a multitude of individuals risking their rateings and licenses or ...

Well what is the most likely explanation???

Let me give you a little hint; It sure the heck isn't "LAX Industry oversight,"!!!!

Apparently they don't like it, I mean, that, the individual skydiver has no responsibility to check his/her own gear?

It's also funny that Flores is very carefull to never mention that he performed any gear check whatsoever, but yet we have people who want to place responsibility regarding missing seals on others who have no physical control oveer this same equipment?


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Feb 21, 2013, 8:49 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Feb 21, 2013, 5:37 PM
Post #101 of 114 (1928 views)
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In reply to:
Am I the only one who thinks it's wrong for the FAA regs to make the pilot responsible for every jumper having legal gear...

.....................................................................

Yes!
The legal precedent goes back many centuries to the days when sailing ship captains were held responsible for everything that happened on board ship. Consider that some sailing ships were away from their home lands for three or four years. There were to radios, no telegrams, no teletype, no telephones, mail was slower than ships, etc.
Some one had to be held responsible for everything that occurred on board a sailing ship, so they held ship's captains responsible.
Airplane pilots are held to the same legal standard as ship's captains.


OneJumpWally  (A License)

Feb 22, 2013, 9:30 PM
Post #102 of 114 (1716 views)
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Re: [jacketsdb23] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

This will be a glorious day. nothing will stop us from glorification. AND IF death shall greet us.... let him be large.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Feb 23, 2013, 1:28 AM
Post #103 of 114 (1682 views)
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In reply to:
This will be a glorious day. nothing will stop us from glorification. AND IF death shall greet us.... let him be large.

There is nothing romantic about death. On a DZ Someone has to deal with theimmediate effects. I can assure you it is NOT nice.


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 24, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #104 of 114 (1540 views)
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Wink

I was at a function with some senior FAA (people) who knew nothing of the past events in CA last year, these are a few of their comments:


"Let me get this straight,...guy jumps out of aircraft,...dosn't follow proper procedures,...goes unconscious,...AND STILL LANDS ON THE AIRPORT, and you people tell me skydiving isn't safe?" "AND now your telling me this individual is seeking more media attention claiming he was wronged,..somehow?" "Did any one mention how lucky / safe skydiving is/ under these circumstances?"

"Don't you guy's (meaning the USPA) ,...have more stringent regulations/ requirments than we? (meaning the FAA)"

When the subject of self inspection / self regulation came up:

"It would take one investigator the rest of there life to fully inspect just one typicall airline type aircraft,...we absolutly depend upon the industry to self-regulate,...there is no way this agency can possibly ensure the safety of the flying public without industry co-operation and support."

On the subject re "dragging" "local" (meaning GATO / FSDO/ etc., personnell out of the local office,) "most of our general aviation offices require an A&P certificate, as a base requirment,... that dosen't mean they are familiar with every thing out there." "You may have gotten someone who is just not that familiar with parachute equipment,...and if they knew the media or a lawyer was involved,...well no one likes those kind of calls..."

Overall the general mood was one of disbelife and incrudulity that somehow The FAA would be required to take a more hands on role, generally the people I spoke with indicated "Your association," knows more about skydiving than we do (FAA.) The mere suggestion that they underetake a stronger role and the media comments about "Lax Industry Oversight" WELL..."their just wrong and indicate how out of touch they are with this industry."

This was coming from people who started their aviation careers in Korea, served in Vietnam, desert storm, flight instructors, military, with an average of 15,000 hours in various type aircraft!


The one point many wanted to stress was the fact regarding letters to the FAA, they indicated that any letter they recived would be taken seriously, and they pointed out that writing and vocalizing directly to them would mean a lot, BECAUSE "We just don't get a lot of letters anymore."

They suggested, as do I, to point out that the USPA and this industry is currently doing a good job and we don't need ill-conceived requlations originating from a media hyped with an agenda and a basic mis-understanding of an "already well regulated industry."

I was totally floored when a 60 plus retired administrator told me that in their opinion "[WE] know more about what we are doing than ,...they."

Just wanted to share this as I haden't seen this mentioned in any of these post's...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Feb 24, 2013, 10:44 AM
Post #105 of 114 (1536 views)
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In reply to:

I was totally floored when a 60 plus retired administrator told me that in their opinion "[WE] know more about what we are doing than ,...they."

Just wanted to share this as I haden't seen this mentioned in any of these post's...


For the most part, virtually every experienced skydiver (and anyone who's been through a proper coach course) knows that involving the FAA in anything we do is a potentially grave mistake. The last thing anyone wants is an FAA ruling or opinion on any aspect of our sport.
In other words, this is painfully obvious to most.
If indeed Mr. Florez contacted the FAA to be any part of his mistake, it simply is another indicator of his lack of knowledge about the sport.


ChrisD  (No License)

Apr 4, 2013, 7:41 AM
Post #106 of 114 (1232 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

Frown

This has not gone away,...

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/gerardo-flores-parachute-opens-early-durying-skydive-scary-video

These people are well funded and this lawsuit is going to go on for years!

The FAA has repeatedly demonstrated that they will respond after the fact based upon puplic pressure.

The FAA has done this on numerous occasions in the past.

If the skydiving community lays silently and does nothing, then we all deserve what is in the pipeline!

The FAA responds to public pressure, our lobby the USPA and the PIA, are basically silent on this particular issue, you need to write to the FAA in support of skydiving and in particular about the egregious treatment this lobby in Monteray, particurly about the ficticious media reporting coming out of SAn Francisco area. Gerado is a scam artist and he is going to win at a steep cost to everyone else!

Just because of your silence!
C

Unsure


stratostar  (Student)

Apr 4, 2013, 9:39 AM
Post #107 of 114 (1176 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

What makes you think so? That is an old write up.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 4, 2013, 10:16 AM
Post #108 of 114 (1155 views)
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As Stratostar mentioned, that web link was pretty old, back from early February.

But as for the role of the FAA, I never did get a reply to my emails either from the San Jose FSDO or Allen Silver, who were involved in the damning but poorly written FAA report...


topdocker  (D 12018)

Apr 4, 2013, 10:45 AM
Post #109 of 114 (1140 views)
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In reply to:
As Stratostar mentioned, that web link was pretty old, back from early February.

But as for the role of the FAA, I never did get a reply to my emails either from the San Jose FSDO or Allen Silver, who were involved in the damning but poorly written FAA report...


Al Silver reported the gear in the condition it was brought to him, not the condition it was jumped by GF. From my personal experience, I can tell you that law enforcement has no clue how to handle and store parachute equipment as evidence. And that's after the EMT's have had their fun with it (not their fault, that is their job). So, the gear may have had issues, but that may or may not be the condition of the gear when it was jumped.

Besides, he landed a fully inflated main in an open field, we should all be so lucky!

top


david3  (D 21297)

Apr 4, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #110 of 114 (1037 views)
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In reply to:


Just because of your silence!
C

Crazy
If you get some time buy a mirror.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Apr 4, 2013, 7:32 PM
Post #111 of 114 (1002 views)
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In reply to:


Besides, he landed a fully inflated main in an open field, we should all be so lucky!

top

OK... now you're just milking it! CrazyWink


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 4, 2013, 8:00 PM
Post #112 of 114 (992 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:


Besides, he landed a fully inflated main in an open field, we should all be so lucky!

top

OK... now you're just milking it! CrazyWink


It ain't braggin' if ya really done it! WinkCool


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Apr 5, 2013, 12:25 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

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Besides, he landed a fully inflated main in an open field, we should all be so lucky!

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OK... now you're just milking it! CrazyWink


It ain't braggin' if ya really done it! WinkCool

If ya' got it, flaunt it!
Wink


HomeyTheClown  (C License)

Apr 5, 2013, 3:56 PM
Post #114 of 114 (839 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Skydiver’s Near-Death Experience Points To Lax Industry Oversight [In reply to] Can't Post

What a joke this guy is LOL. It's too bad the nylon magnets in the freeway did'nt pull him in. Wink



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