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Landing a 'DownPlane' conf.

 


format  (B 15348)

Feb 4, 2013, 11:29 AM
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Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. Can't Post

Can you land a two_out in down_plane configuration safely?

And here's a "lots of dollars" question:
What altitude is "too late to cutaway from a downplane"?


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Feb 4, 2013, 11:40 AM
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What altitude is "too late to cutaway from a downplane"?

Oh goody... wait until a few old CReW dawgs reply to this! I suspect that we will see some pretty harrowing stories which will close with: "Just because we got away with it doesn't mean that it is a good idea....Don't try this at home"!"

Regarding landing a downplane.... I suggest that you convince an old CReW dawg to take you on a downplane. I think the answer to your question will become VERY obvious. Of course, then you will owe Beer!Beer!Beer!


(This post was edited by GLIDEANGLE on Feb 4, 2013, 11:49 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

Feb 4, 2013, 11:49 AM
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you land a two_out in down_plane configuration safely?

And here's a "lots of dollars" question:
What altitude is "too late to cutaway from a downplane"?

First one is easy. Probably not unless you are extremely well-versed in CRW, or extremely lucky. A true downplane is travelling at 80 mph straight into the ground.

The second one is a bit trickier, because I believe getting rid of a true downplane would be a huge priority since you are flying straight into the ground. Any glancing blow will diminish the forces brought to your body, so my answer would be, "Until I hit dirt."

I (and many others) have successfully broken off from planned downplanes at under two hundred feet and I would venture to guess some were closer to a hundred feet. So I would look to fight a two-out downplane into a side-by-side or chop it until something stopped me.

top


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 4, 2013, 12:42 PM
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Re: [topdocker] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with Top on this one. Landing a Down Plane is a life altering incident. I'm of the belief that chopping a downplane leaves little chance for any kind of canopy entanglements. If you ever see CRW Dawgs releasing from them, the canopies can't fly apart fast enough.

There are several threads already on this, including one currently in the incidents forums.

As for how low? The higher the better, why wait?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Feb 4, 2013, 4:52 PM
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi format,

Quote:
Can you land a two_out in down_plane configuration safely?

One always need to define 'safe.'

I have heard ( many years ago that one was landed without too much damage ).

And a tandem downplane was landed a number of years ago here in Oregon. The smallish female student took the brunt of the damage & ended up in the hospital. The TI landed on top of her. Pirate

Be sure to report back after you do one. Tongue

JerryBaumchen


format  (B 15348)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:01 PM
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have heard ( many years ago that one was landed without too much damage ).

There's thread in 'Incidents' with this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

For me, a 3 ft high chop is better than "downplaned"


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:20 PM
Post #7 of 37 (4107 views)
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can you land a two_out in down_plane configuration safely?

And here's a "lots of dollars" question:
What altitude is "too late to cutaway from a downplane"?

I have seen exactly ONE instance where a jumper lived through a one-man downplane. It was a military HALO jump on St. Mere Eglise dropzone on Fort Bragg. The jumper was doing a combat equipment jump out of a UH-60, never got stable, and pulled just as his FF2 military AAD fired. The guy never even noticed his reserve trailing behind him until like 800 feet when it came out of the freebag, inflated, and turned down. The guy didn't know what was up and pulled full brakes on his MC4 main which put him into a sort of 45 degree "drag-plane" configuration with his rucksack dangling below him 200 of us watched the whole thing and we were stunned when he stood up after the crash. The only thing that saved the guy was the fact that he was in superb shape, had TWO 370 square foot canopies over his head (sort of) and the fact that he had his main toggles burried.

No, it's never too late to chop a downplane, period, assuming the canopies are NOT entangled BUT, there's a better what to deal with it. CRW demo guys have known forever that it's very easy to transition from a stack to a side-by-side, to a downplane and then back to a siide-by-side. There is no reason an individual jumper cannot do the same in a two-out situation when his/her life depends on it. In that case, (assuming entangled canopies that one cannot cutaway) the jumper has the rest of his life to keep BOTH canopies over his head until landing/impact in order to survive. It's not that big a deal, really. To do so, just pull on the inside-rear riser of one of the canopies in order to get it back overhead.

I've been jumping 31 years, have been an instructor for 29 of those, and do this full-time. I've read every book, every report, and have seen both the good and the bad ways to address this. Take that advice anyway you like.

Chuck


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Feb 4, 2013, 5:49 PM
Post #8 of 37 (4086 views)
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would never advise trying to land a downplane. Ouch! That being said about ten years ago I did a solo downplane on a tertiary-cutaway rig. I downplaned a triathlon 99 and a lightning 113. I can say that the camera guy ( loaded at 1.3?) didnt have the slightest problem staying with me when both sets of brakes were stowed. The descent rate wasn't too crazy. Once brakes were unstowed however, I left him in the dust and sped up incredibly....


ksaylor1  (D 23902)

Feb 7, 2013, 12:10 PM
Post #9 of 37 (3798 views)
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

The FF2 is a main-mounted AAD. Barring a broken closing loop, the only way his reserve came out is if he pulled the reserve handle himself. If the reserve was trailing and didn't come out of its freebag until 800 feet, that tells me that the main canopy was the primary canopy for the majority of his flight. For your story to make sense, he must have fallen through FF2 firing altitude, the main became "mostly" inflated, and then he manually fired his reserve without pulling the cutaway pillow. As the reserve was launching, the main finished doing its thing, so there was no longer sufficient speed for the reserve to finish its deployment (until 800 feet). Sounds like the guy did pretty much nothing right (except walk away). Don't get me wrong - I can absolutely see it going down like this - I see jumpers do the wrong thing every day.

Given a little bit of altitude, I fully support a recommendation to steer an individual downplane into a side-by-side. Bound to be a more survivable landing than a downplane.

I've been jumping freefall for (only) 17 years, have been an instructor for (only) 13 of those, and am a parachute rigger (military - 21 years and counting, FAA - 15 years and counting).

Ken


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 3:15 AM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

The French Federation has a theory about that. Take the 4 toggles and pull them. it would make the trailing edges go together, and have your canopies act as a big "round".
I call BS on that one. But I might be wrong.

Oh we had a guy crash/landing a downplane a couple of years ago. The whambulance guys were very surprised to have to pick someone up FROM the cemetary Laugh


HighJB  (C License)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:24 AM
Post #11 of 37 (3570 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The French Federation has a theory about that. Take the 4 toggles and pull them. it would make the trailing edges go together, and have your canopies act as a big "round".
I call BS on that one. But I might be wrong.
I never heard that. Do you have a link or something ?
The "official" advice that I have is to keep the dominated canopy with brakes stowed in case of a "2 out" configuration.


(This post was edited by HighJB on Feb 8, 2013, 5:25 AM)


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 5:58 AM
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Re: [HighJB] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

you are talking "2out", we are talking downplane (miroir). Take a look in your FFP manualsWink


pchapman  (D 1014)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:59 AM
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Re: [HighJB] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the 4 toggles thing sounds more like a thought experiment, as a last ditch thing before hitting the ground. It still seems better to try to turn one canopy sharply to break the downplane towards a side by side.


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 6:18 AM
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Re: [pchapman] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.ffp.asso.fr/...Technique_14_bis.pdfpage 4

actually it doesn't say "take the 4 toggles" it says "brake(or slow down) both canopies"


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Feb 8, 2013, 6:28 AM
Post #15 of 37 (3521 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that if I ended up in a downplane so stupid low I couldn't cutaway, I would try to do a deep flare on one of the canopies to drag plane the other. I suspect that that descent rate would be slower than a drag plane.

Obviously prevention, and cutting away are better solutions...


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 6:45 AM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

just trying to think...
Provided you have access to risers, what about a rear riser stall on one of the canopies ?


DiverMike  (C 40024)

Feb 8, 2013, 7:00 AM
Post #17 of 37 (3500 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would defer to people with more knowledge than I, but why would you add a chaotic event ( canopy stall) to an unstable environment? Wouldn't the stalled canopy run the risk of entanglement with the flying canopy?


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 7:02 AM
Post #18 of 37 (3495 views)
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Re: [DiverMike] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

a proper downplane is the most stable configuration


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Feb 8, 2013, 7:04 AM
Post #19 of 37 (3490 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't do a full-blown stall but max flare couldn't make it worse..


HighJB  (C License)

Feb 8, 2013, 7:47 AM
Post #20 of 37 (3466 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you are talking "2out", we are talking downplane (miroir). Take a look in your FFP manualsWink
I was talking downplane as well. As it is a specific 2 out situation, the advices for the 2 out are still valid Wink

And no thank you the FFP manuals on that subject are too far from being clear.


(This post was edited by HighJB on Feb 8, 2013, 7:50 AM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 8, 2013, 8:46 AM
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Re: [ksaylor1] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

@ Ken Saylor: I misspoke: it was an AR2 mounted on the reserve of an MC4 system. I worked at USAJFKSWC though every mode that that POS was configured for. This incident was a combination of a low pull and a high AR2 fire (which were VERY common early on). Does that clear it up for you? The point of the story was that we were fascinated to see this guy get up and walk away from it.

Chuck


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 8, 2013, 9:55 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

As stated up thread, get some CRW experience!!! You'll learn/experience how to move canopies around from bi-plane to side-by-side, side-by-side to down plane, and you can even work from down plane to side-by side.

There is no replacement for experience. If I ever find myself in a two out down plane, I'll be better equipped to deal with it because I've been there, done that. Smile


dragon2  (D 101989)

Feb 8, 2013, 11:59 AM
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

Safely, meh, alive, yes.
I have video somewhere of one of my former SL students (a fitness instructor so quite healthy and limber) inducing and then landing a downplane. She ended up with a busted hip.

This was during the World POPS Meet 2012 @ Teuge NL, a good number of people saw her landing. I was on the landing field, filming accuracy, but they were dropping regular loads in between.

As I heard from the JM, she exited very stable on her back for her first freefall. She opened her main after the briefed 10 second delay, while still stable on her back.


By the time I saw her, she had a stable-looking side by side. She flew that for a while, then she started kicking. A LOT. Then the side by side turned into a downplane because she was steering with one toggle fully down. The canopies started turning slowly while downplaning.
She landed like that.

Afterwards, she refused to go to the hospital right away, said her hip was just sore. She was in full-on defensive mode at that time, saing she should never have been allowed to freefall, she also said she was never taught how to exit properly or get stable (I gave her the FJC, she did well enough for at least 5 jumps to be allowed to freefall, and her first freefall briefing was done by the chief instructor). She also said she was never taught how to deal with a 2out.

She later said, Hey Saskia you told me to leave a side-by-side pretty much alone or else it might downplane, turns out you were right!

Crazy


From looking at the video, we concluded the main opened with one riser around her arm. the main was flying stable enough surprisingly, I would have left well enough alone myself.
She maintained she was unable to cuyaway because her right arm was stuck, so she just pulled silver.
reserve opened in a side-by-side witha couple linetwists, which is why she was kicking so much under canopy.
When she couldn't undo the twists, she grabbed a toggle with her free hand and just PULLED, thereby inducing the downplane (this is all on video).
She landed like that, one toggle fully down for a 'flare'.

She landed sideways, presumably mostly on her hip.

Now I didn't do the debrief, and somewhat glad of it because I'm not sure where would have gone with this student. She DID pull her canopy on time.

I left this one to the chief instructor.


I think the video is on my computer at the DZ. might be there next weekend but not this weekend.


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 3:43 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As stated up thread, get some CRW experience!!!
it's funny you reply that to Topdocker Laugh


tdog  (D 28800)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:02 PM
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

I still remember them pulling the white sheet over my fellow jumper after I laid on his canopy so they could land the helicopter. I wondered, "did they do everything they could?" Days later the autopsy report showed the jumper died 5 different ways - meaning 5 independent injuries, each causing his death. The impact injuries were said to be hitting a brick wall between 60 - 80 or so MPH based on the injuries.

All I can say is - if you have a true downplane - cut away... Even if it is 30 feet above the ground, you are at least giving yourself a chance.

In 1 year in my home state three people died of downplanes (2004-2005) - two crew dogs, and one very experienced instructor.

And - remember this - your Cypres fires below 1000 feet (the primary cause of two outs) - you have very little time to handle the situation of the stress of a cypres fire and/or very low pull, and suddenly finding yourself in a spinning two out situation. Scary stuff. Stuff FJC instructors need to not skip over...


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 9, 2013, 5:04 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...A true downplane is travelling at 80 mph straight into the ground.

Really?


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 9, 2013, 3:23 PM
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Re: [piisfish] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
As stated up thread, get some CRW experience!!!
it's funny you reply that to Topdocker Laugh

No shit! Wink Obviously not directed at him. Just good advice to anyone looking to become a well rounded skydiver. Cool


CReW  (D License)

Feb 9, 2013, 10:12 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

Topdock can always use a little CRW experience!


topdocker  (D 12018)

Feb 11, 2013, 8:34 AM
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Re: [CReW] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Topdock can always use a little CRW experience!

Geez! Ya take a couple days off to go to a volleyball tourney, and you get called out for not having enough experience!Crazy

It has been a couple of months, maybe I'm a little rusty. Anybody out there wanna try some CRW?

top


f2t323

Feb 12, 2013, 8:15 AM
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Re: [format] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is not a two out situation ,but when you think of the wing loading ....anyway food for tought .
heres the video of the skyhawks taking it very low and even turning before seperation .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlqRf_56Y0


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Feb 13, 2013, 9:29 AM
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Re: [f2t323] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This is not a two out situation ,but when you think of the wing loading ....anyway food for tought .
heres the video of the skyhawks taking it very low and even turning before seperation .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlqRf_56Y0

CRW chutes have SIGNIFICANTLY different recovery arc characteristics than sport mains and reserves.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 13, 2013, 1:13 PM
Post #32 of 37 (560 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
This is not a two out situation ,but when you think of the wing loading ....anyway food for tought .
heres the video of the skyhawks taking it very low and even turning before seperation .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlqRf_56Y0

CRW chutes have SIGNIFICANTLY different recovery arc characteristics than sport mains and reserves.

...And, my guess would be, they'd be flying at the ground much faster in a downplane config. Even more reason to chop the main.

Think of it this way, if you don't chop the main in a downplane, there will be NO recovery arc??? Ouch!Smile


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Feb 13, 2013, 2:13 PM
Post #33 of 37 (542 views)
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
This is not a two out situation ,but when you think of the wing loading ....anyway food for tought .
heres the video of the skyhawks taking it very low and even turning before seperation .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlqRf_56Y0

CRW chutes have SIGNIFICANTLY different recovery arc characteristics than sport mains and reserves.

...And, my guess would be, they'd be flying at the ground much faster in a downplane config. Even more reason to chop the main.

Think of it this way, if you don't chop the main in a downplane, there will be NO recovery arc??? Ouch!Smile

Well, probably. Less drag theoretically.

Oh for sure. I just didn't want someone to look at that video and think that a sport canopy would recover like that.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 13, 2013, 5:03 PM
Post #34 of 37 (508 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Oh for sure. I just didn't want someone to look at that video and think that a sport canopy would recover like that.
If you chop the main in a two out (which is the only one you CAN chop on most rigs), you'll be under the reserve (obviously). Most reserves fly very much like CRW canopies and should have short recovery arcs.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Feb 13, 2013, 5:23 PM
Post #35 of 37 (503 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Oh for sure. I just didn't want someone to look at that video and think that a sport canopy would recover like that.
If you chop the main in a two out (which is the only one you CAN chop on most rigs), you'll be under the reserve (obviously). Most reserves fly very much like CRW canopies and should have short recovery arcs.

I doubt short enough to chop that low and not hit damn close to belly to earth. Which was really all I was getting at.

Yes, reserves aren't trimmed as steep as a main. No, they aren't trimmed as flat as a CRW canopy. Happy?


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Feb 13, 2013, 7:39 PM
Post #36 of 37 (471 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Yes, reserves aren't trimmed as steep as a main. No, they aren't trimmed as flat as a CRW canopy. Happy?
Sure. I really don't know, except that rectangular 7cell reserve should have a much shorter recovery arc than a 9 cell ZP elliptical. I've done a fair amount of crw but just with typical 7 cell mains, not specialty canopies. They seemed to recover very quickly from intentional down planes. That's just my own experience, though. YMMV,


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Feb 13, 2013, 8:10 PM
Post #37 of 37 (462 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] Landing a 'DownPlane' conf. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes, reserves aren't trimmed as steep as a main.
Isn't it normally the other way around?



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