Forums: Skydiving: Incidents:
Injuries - Florida - February 2013

 


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Feb 3, 2013, 6:21 PM
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Injuries - Florida - February 2013 Can't Post

I have been asked about a few injuries that have occurred in the last few days in FL. It sounds like there were injuries in separate incidents at the FCPA swoop meet at Zhiils this weekend and in training for it. I was told that one jumper has broken ribs during landing and another jumper might have spinal damage after A lines broke during their swoop turn.

I have very little details on these incidents but it sounds like both of the jumpers were current and experienced.


swoopgirl  (D License)

Feb 3, 2013, 7:25 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Well which swooper was Jeannie Anderson and wtf happend??


tkhayes  (D 18764)

Feb 4, 2013, 4:36 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Jeannie is fine - she hit the water hard - we thought she broke herself, but apparently not and she may be out of the hospital today. bruised I am sure, but OK.

Kelsey Mizeur blew an A/B line on Saturday in the middle of the swoop and hit hard. He broke L2 and is expected to be in surgery soon, today or tomorrow.


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:03 AM
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Re: [tkhayes] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Jeannie is fine - she hit the water hard - we thought she broke herself, but apparently not and she may be out of the hospital today. bruised I am sure, but OK.

Kelsey Mizeur blew an A/B line on Saturday in the middle of the swoop and hit hard. He broke L2 and is expected to be in surgery soon, today or tomorrow.

Jeannie is back home and in good spirits. She hit really hard and just sank, no skipping. She is one tough girl.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
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Feb 4, 2013, 7:02 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Albert Berchtold gave a nice reminder speech to the competitors about maintaining their gear. As he pointed out, a new line set is a lot cheaper than a ride to the hospital and surgery. Sounds like this injury (the line break incident) could have been prevented with proper gear maintenance. Unsure


(This post was edited by skymama on Feb 4, 2013, 7:03 AM)


AdD  (D License)

Feb 4, 2013, 8:31 AM
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Re: [skymama] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be very interested to know the type and number of jumps on these lines.


Rookie120  (D 22748)

Feb 4, 2013, 9:10 AM
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Re: [AdD] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure of the exact name of the lines. So many different ones. But from looking they were the real thin ones but as to which exactly I dont know. There was signs on wear at the point the slinks loop. As for any other details like number of jumps on the set I just do not know. All I know is the line snapped at the worst possible time while trying to swoop the pond. Kelsey is beat up right now but I must say he was working his ass off trying to land it and avoid obstacles for the 10 seconds after the line broke.

I think the thing that we can by this is to check your gear often and when you see some wear and tear to go so your local friendly rigger and have him fix it. That $200 line set is a lot cheaper than the stay at your hospital.


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 4, 2013, 9:19 AM
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Re: [Rookie120] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Also keep in mind the load on the line during hard swooping is significantly greater than opening shock.
More so on a gentle hop n pop.


Southern_Man  (C License)

Feb 4, 2013, 9:29 AM
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Re: [normiss] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Anybody know specifically which line he blew and where it was blown (e.g. attachment pt at the canopy or towards the slinks)?


Rookie120  (D 22748)

Feb 4, 2013, 9:33 AM
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Re: [Southern_Man] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

It was A line right at the loop the slink goes in.


lowhook  (D 18667)

Feb 4, 2013, 12:48 PM
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Re: [skymama] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Knowing Kelsey and the care he took with his canopy and lines my first impression is more focused on how fragile competition line sets have become. Nothing less than 500 HMA for me thanks.


champu  (D 28302)

Feb 4, 2013, 1:02 PM
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Re: [Rookie120] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Assuming this is a lineset with a fair amount of use on it (and this wasn't a construction issue on a fairly new lineset) I think it would be instructive to find out how many jumps were on the lineset, photograph both the the broken and remaining lines, and then destructively pull test the rest of the lineset.

I would be interested to see a map of the remaining ultimate strength of the lineset... e.g.:

A/B-lines (left to right): x lbs, y lbs, ... , z lbs, ? (broken)

C/D-lines (left to right) etc...

It might change people's minds about how many jumps they want to do on competition linesets.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Feb 4, 2013, 3:25 PM
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Re: [Rookie120] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

This can happen due to pulling the slider down. The lines at the attachment point should be looked at every time the canopy is packed (only takes a few seconds)


Rookie120  (D 22748)

Feb 4, 2013, 3:39 PM
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Re: [Bertt] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

This can happen due to pulling the slider down.
Quote:


This is true. But when looking at the broken line and the others most of the wear was on the inside of the loop where it rides on the slink.


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:56 PM
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Re: [normiss] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
....the load on the line during hard swooping is significantly greater than opening shock.

That doesn't sound right.




TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Feb 4, 2013, 11:04 PM
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Re: [skymama] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Albert Berchtold gave a nice reminder speech to the competitors about maintaining their gear. As he pointed out, a new line set is a lot cheaper than a ride to the hospital and surgery. Sounds like this injury (the line break incident) could have been prevented with proper gear maintenance. Unsure
Wear on lines, especially so-called waxed lines, is not always obvious. I know a guy whose Vectran steering line failed in the bottom of a swoop. Previous 4 jumps on the canopy were by another experienced instructor/swooper and it was packed by a highly experienced packer, so 3 guys missed it. A little less than 300 jumps on the canopy and line set. That guy has titanium in his legs as a result.


jjudd  (D 31065)

Feb 5, 2013, 1:07 AM
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's the facts:

Like stated above Jeanie hit the water hard and is home now and Kelsey had a ab line break and is awaiting surgery for his L2.


The below is in no relation to either of the jumpers or their gear as I didn't personally get to inspect their gear and i dont know how it was maintained or jumped:


high performance wings with small lines(300 lb typically even cascading to 200 lb on the bs and ds using vectran, technora, hma, all types) need to be replaced sooner than later. Your looking realistically at 75 to 150 jumps, some guys are getting more but when do you really cross the threshold? That remains to be at a set number, yes you can get more but is it worth it? The fact is we're inducing more stress on our lines on turns now then the openings. Additionally these lines are not meant to be taken to terminal which I've seen plet ly of people do regularly.


The cost of maintaining a competition wing is much more costly and it doesn't fit the needs of the modern day videographer and fun jumper yet we still continue to use these wings to terminal just because.

Its Never a bad idea to have another main with a stronger lb lineset for your regular jumps and keeping track of jumps on your lineset is crucial. It's never easy spending 300 bucks on lines every month or two but it needs to be done on these wings. This is where we must ask ourselves are we jumping whats proper for our main need in the sport. This is also part of the reason these lines aren't available for regular purchase from pd for your regular velo. They are meant for subterminal openings and taking the limit that much higher which sometimes do lead us to a more dangerous place.

We all accept these risks jumping and competitive canopy piloting only pushes us that much farther forward into the risk zone when we don't have proper maintenance of our gear and we are all guilty of putting things off for "one more day".


What matters is how you take the info from this and how you continue to maintain your gear

We wish a speedy recover to both jumpers from the meet and hope for a full recovery


Additionally if your using a rds you need to regularly inspect you rings for nicks wear and burs that increase line wear. The days of jumping a lineset until it breaks on opening are no longer realistic with the modern designs and decreased stress on openings associated the modern canopy


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Feb 5, 2013, 5:00 AM
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Re: [jjudd] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Here's the facts: ....

high performance wings with small lines(300 lb typically even cascading to 200 lb on the bs and ds using vectran, technora, hma, all types) need to be replaced sooner than later. Your looking realistically at 75 to 150 jumps, some guys are getting more but when do you really cross the threshold?

This is how bad information gets started around here.

There several different types of line out there. Some may only go about 150 jumps and others will go much longer. It just depends.

This is where education is needed, not someone simply throwing out some best self guess jump numbers and calling it factual.
Also there is a difference between OD line wear and ID loop wear.

If you will notice the next time you are using front risers, watch the movement of the lines at the slink.
Then remember that one of the first rules of engineering is "if it moves. it will wear out"

Now add in the fact that the slink has a zigzag (bartack) on it which can be really abrasive to the loaded line, and then you have the real answer.

Maybe line inspection probably should become mandatory at all of the meets in the future?

Cheers,
MEL


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 5, 2013, 9:36 AM
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Re: [chuckakers] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
....the load on the line during hard swooping is significantly greater than opening shock.

That doesn't sound right.

Remember we are talking about sub-terminal openings and 630*+ turns on canopies loaded up to 3.2 or more.

Your skepticism may be right for "normal" jumping - but this situation is so far removed from the norm. And clearly Kelsey had already had a normal opening on this jump before the line broke.

It all happened so fast and so low, he did a great job of trying to control a highly loaded and misbehaving canopy. Just to miss the trailer park was quite a feat.


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
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Feb 5, 2013, 3:25 PM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Now add in the fact that the slink has a zigzag (bartack) on it which can be really abrasive to the loaded line, and then you have the real answer
Cheers,
MEL

Would perhaps using metal links be better on these really tiny line sets? It seems like the smooth metal would cause less wear and tear...

And I didn't see it posted earlier - was this canopy just used for swooping/sub-terminal openings, or was it used as an everyday working canopy?


jjudd  (D 31065)

Feb 5, 2013, 5:22 PM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Mel I'm referring to small 300 lb line obviously stronger lines and different line types will get different life and that is stated If you read my whole post. And I have a unbiased opinion about it because I don't manufacture lines and linesets. There's no magical number of jumps simple as that but in this cases it sound like a replacement was needed a while ago by inspection after the fact and that's second hand.

In no way did I say change your lines by 150 jumps its your interpretation and its something that all jumpers not just the high performance guys need to continue to look at all the time. Simple as that.


When guys on the PDFT are breaking over several lines on a opening it shows its something we all need to be aware of because if it can happen to someone with a lot of cost covered gear its more likely to happen to the everyday jumper pinching pennies


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 5, 2013, 5:45 PM
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Re: [jjudd] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Split to a discussion about lines?

BIG difference between competition swoopers and fun jumper IMO.




masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Feb 6, 2013, 4:04 AM
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Re: [faulknerwn] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would perhaps using metal links be better on these really tiny line sets? It seems like the smooth metal would cause less wear and tear...

I would say no to the metal links.
It would be metal to metal with the line in between.
This would produce more of a hazard IMHO.

Yesterday I was playing with a nylon sleeve or sock that will encase the slink. It should protect the loop from most of the wear from the bartack.

This is more than likely the route to go here.


Cheers,
MEL


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Feb 6, 2013, 4:43 AM
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Re: [jjudd] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Mel I'm referring to small 300 lb line obviously stronger lines and different line types will get different life and that is stated If you read my whole post.

I did read your whole post. That was actually my reason for posting.

Quote:
.... Your looking realistically at 75 to 150 jumps, some guys are getting more but when do you really cross the threshold?
Quote:

When you start your post off with "here's the facts:" and this information follows, someone is going to take it for written value

Also, just for reference, there is a difference in line type and line tensile strength.

Type is how and what material the line is made of. Natural fiber, coated fiber, finished coating, etc... are just some examples

Tensile strength is usually listed as 80% of it's actual breaking strength in most manufacturer's worlds.

Just a note here.
In PD's world it is whatever they name it to be so it could be the industry standard or not....
And I have a unbiased opinion about it because I don't manufacture lines and linesets.
Quote:

By your previous statements, I believe you do have a biased opinion......

Quote:
When guys on the PDFT are breaking over several lines on a opening it shows its something we all need to be aware of because if it can happen to someone with a lot of cost covered gear its more likely to happen to the everyday jumper pinching pennies


The PD boys are probably breaking the 200 Vectran on a regular basis.

Different story BTW...


As to the last part about the everyday jumper.
This was my exact intent on my first reply to you.
You were throwing jump numbers out for line set replacement.

My stance is more education and inspection of the lines in lieu of simply just replacing them at a certain number.

If you care to do the searches, you will find a lot of material on this site that I have put out over the years.

Cheers,
MEL


FB1609  (C 1409)

Feb 6, 2013, 5:30 PM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
a nylon sleeve or sock that will encase the slink. It should protect the loop from most of the wear from the bartack.

MEL

Sounds like a great idea to me


baronn  (D 22387)

Feb 6, 2013, 8:23 PM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

1 of the 1st things you learn in tree work is "When do you replace a rope? Before it breaks!" The consequences are unforgiving.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 7, 2013, 4:09 AM
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Re: [baronn] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
1 of the 1st things you learn in tree work is "When do you replace a rope? Before it breaks!"

We all know that skydivers are known for not listening to manufacturers. Don't take this canopy to terminal, don't take an RDS to terminal, an RDS is not made for everyday jumping, etc. There's always going to be someone who has to have the biggest swinging dick on the DZ who will break those rules and use whatever it is as an everyday canopy.

The difference with the competition linesets is that they can make problems down low, as we see here. If you have a problem deploying a canopy or with an RDS at terminal, the assumption is that you're also up above 2k (for most swoopers more like 3 or 4k), and you have time and a reserve to fall back on. Now that we have swooping that can introduce loads sufficient to snap lines that are past their prime, the old idea that 'if you can get it to open you're in the clear' goes right out the window.

When I was a poor young skydiver, I used to jump a line set until something broke. It was always on deployment, and then I would land it with a busted line and figure it out from there. Since those days, I stepped up to a Velo that I have no interest in landing with a broken line. So the new plan is that I get it relined every other winter, replacing the 'rope before it breaks'. Due to this, I've had no maintenance issues with the canopy in 1200+ jumps, and none of the cutaways or downtime that come with those issues. At the same time, I replace the risers on alternating winters, so everything is reasonably 'fresh' from the 3-rings up, and all for less than $1/jump.

I do it that way just to avoid downtime mid-season when I'm trying to spend my time jumping, not overnighting my canopy to PD and begging them to 'hurry up'. If you're jumping a competition line set, you need to have the same attitude to keep yourself out of the hospital. Come up with a plan the day you install the lines, and stick to it.


danornan  (D 11308)

Feb 7, 2013, 5:11 AM
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Re: [baronn] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1 of the 1st things you learn in tree work is "When do you replace a rope? Before it breaks!" The consequences are unforgiving.

I like to go with, "If you are not sure, the answer is no."


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Feb 8, 2013, 6:21 AM
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Re: [masterrigger1] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would say no to the metal links.
It would be metal to metal with the line in between.

Not seeing how the line would get between metal using rapide links. Can you explain?


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 8, 2013, 6:55 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I would say no to the metal links.
It would be metal to metal with the line in between.

Not seeing how the line would get between metal using rapide links. Can you explain?

I think he meant the line would get between the rapide links and the rapidly descending RDS rings.


TitaniumLegs  (D 19246)

Feb 8, 2013, 1:44 PM
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Re: [davelepka] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So the new plan is that I get it relined every other winter, replacing the 'rope before it breaks'. Due to this, I've had no maintenance issues with the canopy in 1200+ jumps, and none of the cutaways or downtime that come with those issues. At the same time, I replace the risers on alternating winters, so everything is reasonably 'fresh' from the 3-rings up, and all for less than $1/jump.
I was curious as to the #jumps you typically put on a line set, and the line type (material and weight). Can't quite figure it out from your post.

Thanks


morris

Feb 9, 2013, 4:22 AM
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Re: [TitaniumLegs] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

So am I, linetype, number of jumps, wingload, exitweight and so on would be nice to know...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Feb 9, 2013, 3:35 PM
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Re: [morris] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Are we maybe going to see manufactures putting "lifespans" on linesets?




Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Feb 9, 2013, 8:13 PM
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Re: [morris] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So am I, linetype, number of jumps, wingload, exitweight and so on would be nice to know...

I got to see the jumper today, he's doing better. I asked him specifically about the line set and his response was "400HMA (the stuff that comes with a JVX) and maybe 300 jumps on the lineset."

I'd speculate his loading to be around 2.5, maybe 2.7


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Feb 9, 2013, 8:14 PM)


marks2065  (D 18925)

Feb 11, 2013, 9:37 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

 My HMA lines get replace at about 300 jumps, I have seen them break on the Katana's at that time


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Feb 11, 2013, 9:44 AM
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Re: [marks2065] Injuries - Florida - February 2013 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I'm not sure what Daedalus/Icarus recommend for the 400 hma.



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