Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Logbook: Digital vs Paper

 

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #51 of 69 (819 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

I spend all day programming, trust me I am no Luddite.

It is simple: electronic logbooks can't be verified.

Until the USPA supports a standard for verifying electronic logs, drop zones will require paper.

If you don't log on paper you will have trouble at some point at some dropzone that you would not have with paper.

It's not a technology question it's a business process that has not changed. Until that process is revised, paper is obviously the only "sure thing"

So a piece of paper has more value because the USPA says it does.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #52 of 69 (815 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you can read a piece of paper you can read a screen. The owner of the electronic device can open the page you need to see for you.

So give me your neptune 3 and I'll jump it all weekend and then you go to another drop zone and tell them that you did those jumps because your neptune has logged them.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:36 AM
Post #53 of 69 (812 views)
Shortcut
Re: [thedude911] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I see happening eventually is a centralized system in which logged jumps are kept by the USPA.

What I mean is, all USPA certified dropzones (or any DZ for that matter) have to keep electronic records of manifested jumps for everyone which is sent and stored in a centralized database. From there, say a simple website, you as a jumper could sign into the site using your USPA member # and view your jump log, adding comments and such as to what exactly you did, freefall times, speeds, etc etc...and have someone on the load sign off for you with a digital signature. Kind of like if you fill out financial forms or something online you can digitally sign...same concept.

Would you be willing to pay a lot more in membership dues to pay for that centralized system to be designed, implemented, maintained, and secured?

Maybe allow people and drop zones to opt in.

If you want to use the electronic log book, you pay an additional 50 cents for your jump ticket.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #54 of 69 (806 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
It is simple: electronic logbooks can't be verified. (...)
So a piece of paper has more value because the USPA says it does.

What is it that can be verified on paper that can't on an electronic logbook? If it is the signature, we already said some e-logbooks allow that. Where does the USPA say it has to be on paper? They only say it has to be recorded as far as I know.

Quote:
So give me your neptune 3 and I'll jump it all weekend and then you go to another drop zone and tell them that you did those jumps because your neptune has logged them.

Give me your logbook and I'll fill and sign 20 jumps for you. Hey I can even sign with Spot's signature if you prefer! At least for the electronic one someone has to actually jump, which makes it more complicated to fake.


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jan 30, 2013, 11:45 AM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:50 AM
Post #55 of 69 (794 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Give me your logbook and I'll fill and sign 20 jumps for you.

That is true, you can't prevent forgery in either case.

But the issue isn't "how do we solve it" it is "what will the dropzone accept"

If the USPA says that electronic log books are kosher if they follow the same requirement, then member drop zones won't have a reason to not accept them.

But it is ambiguous at best as far as how a dropzone would interpret the current language.

So until such a point that the USPA makes a definitive statement, paper is obviously better because there is no ambiguity around that.

Don't get me wrong. I'd be happy to write an app that logs and verifies jumps. But I'm not going to write that app if I don't believe dropzones will accept it, and I wouldn't think a jumper would PAY ME for that app if they didn't think a dropzone would accept it.


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jan 30, 2013, 11:50 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #56 of 69 (789 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vidiot] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For the record: The loop was not cut!

Lesson learned: Two-Handed Cutaway = Bad

Wink

200 meters? Not too shabby!

Although I am curious about the two-handed comment.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 30, 2013, 11:55 AM)


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:09 PM
Post #57 of 69 (779 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the USPA says that electronic log books are kosher if they follow the same requirement, then member drop zones won't have a reason to not accept them.

But it is ambiguous at best as far as how a dropzone would interpret the current language.

So until such a point that the USPA makes a definitive statement, paper is obviously better because there is no ambiguity around that.

I agree. I just sent an e-mail to the USPA, I'm curious to see what they are going to say. Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:10 PM
Post #58 of 69 (777 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't say you can't chip it marble, paint it on billboard or tattoo it on your forehead either.

I give up. You can be a hard-headed as you want. You keep repeating the same complaint that we've been hearing since e-logs came into being. This is nothing new.

-We've already agreed that the e-log shows the same, and more, info.
-We've already acknowledged both methods can be forged.
-We said repeatedly that most DZs want paper.
-It's obvious that things started out with paper because e-logs were not available back then. THAT"S why DZs want paper...30,000+ of us currently use, and still use, paper.

You can go with the flow or rebel and deal with the consequences until until the DZ of choice chooses to accept e-logs. Have at it.

I could not care less which is acceptable...up until the point where they say paper NOT acceptable.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:16 PM
Post #59 of 69 (766 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the USPA says that electronic log books are kosher if they follow the same requirement, then member drop zones won't have a reason to not accept them.

But it is ambiguous at best as far as how a dropzone would interpret the current language.

Well yes and no. DZs can accept anything they care to...even the chipped-in-marble ones. I'm sure USPA will not waste their time and effort to specify either one nor will they direct DZs to accept either or both.

D There's no ambiguity for the vast, vast majority of DZ...it's paper. Simple as that.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:28 PM
Post #60 of 69 (758 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper, I am sorry if I irritated you.

I'm just thinking now that IF the USPA says it is ok, what would it matter to the dropzones which type of logs we use?

After that, what anyone use would be up to them. Like you say, why would you care what is accepted if your way is?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 30, 2013, 12:41 PM
Post #61 of 69 (749 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm just thinking now that IF the USPA says it is ok, what would it matter to the dropzones which type of logs we use?

After that, what anyone use would be up to them. Like you say, why would you care what is accepted if your way is?

It really doesn't matter one way or another what the USPA says. What matters is what a DZO wants. USPA doesn't own the dropzone, therefore anything they say is merely an endorsement.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:57 PM
Post #62 of 69 (746 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What matters is what a DZO wants.

I know that. That's why I asked "what would it matter to the DZ?"

If the USPA say it is ok for them, Is there a reason why a DZ would still not want to accept them? I know they totally can, but what would be the reasoning, except being against change.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 1:16 PM
Post #63 of 69 (735 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What matters is what a DZO wants.

I know that. That's why I asked "what would it matter to the DZ?"

If the USPA say it is ok for them, Is there a reason why a DZ would still not want to accept them? I know they totally can, but what would be the reasoning, except being against change.

Look, you just don't get it. You say, "I know that" and then you ask again. WTF?

Currently, and forever in the future I would expect, USPA has no say-so.

A DZ CAN accept e-logs if they choose. Is there a reason why not, you ask? Yes, there is but you are asking the wrong people. Call a DZO and ask him/her. I'm sure you will find many reasons....even "I simply don't want to." And guess, what, you have to live with that.

It appears that you are looking for reasons so that you can can argue about them. How do you argue against someone that simply has a preference?

I'm done...cooked...burned out.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 30, 2013, 1:18 PM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 1:26 PM
Post #64 of 69 (728 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well yes and no. DZs can accept anything they care to...even the chipped-in-marble ones. I'm sure USPA will not waste their time and effort to specify either one nor will they direct DZs to accept either or both.

that's true I suppose I was basing my statement off of the assumption that a DZ would be hesitant to accept e-logs out of a concern that they would run afowl of USPA policy and thus open themselves up to some kind of risk in that regard.

But on the underlying point we are in agreement, in that it is what is commonly accepted that gives the medium value. No DZ would say "we don't accept paper log books here" and until that same statement can be true for e-logs, the whole rationale for e-logs is moot.

in either case there isn't much more to be said so I'm bailing out on this one! peace Wink


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jan 30, 2013, 1:28 PM)


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 2:05 PM
Post #65 of 69 (716 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper, I am sorry if my posts burned you out. Please feel free to ignore me if you think answering would cause you to feel anything less than good. It's just a forum on the internet, no need to have bad feelings. In the worst case, if nobody awnsers, the thread will die on it's own. And I can live with that.

You are right I don't get it, maybe because english is not my native tongue. I do make an effort to write and understand as good as I can.

I do know DZ can do whatever they want, and that I can choose to comply or go elsewhere. And that's what I did. I did buy the logbook. And will bring it with me when I go back there, in case I meet the same instructor (the DZ itself accepts e-logs).

I do prefer not having a paper logbook. So yes, I am wondering what would be the reasons to argue against them.

For example, if a DZ tells me they don't accept them because the USPA doesn't accept them, I could argue that the USPA does accept them (I'm just assuming for a second here). Maybe they would learn something and then change their mind, maybe not.

If they tell me they don't accept e-logs for a legitimate reason I don't know, I would have learned something.

If they tell me they don't accept e-logs just because they can, well I will have to decide if I comply or go elsewhere, but at least I'll know, and I will have an opinion.


Edited to add:

I've only jumped at 8 different DZ (3 in Canada, 5 in the US), but so far 4 of the DZO themselves have accepted my e-log. The rest of the times I only saw employees, but they also accepted without question. The only exception so far has been one instructor, in a DZ that normally accepts e-logs.


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jan 30, 2013, 2:16 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 30, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #66 of 69 (692 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I spend all day programming, trust me I am no Luddite.

It is simple: electronic logbooks can't be verified.

So a piece of paper has more value because the USPA says it does.

That's simply NOT true, the E log I use is JUST as verifiable and a paper log. The information contained with in it is EXACTLY the same as a paper log .
ALL THE INFO.



and the USPA does NOT say the log needs to be paper. The USPA puts NO value on the paper at all.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 30, 2013, 3:18 PM)


LeslieRP  (C License)

Jan 31, 2013, 7:05 PM
Post #67 of 69 (623 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not just use both?

I personally would prefer my paper log book over an altimeter that you could potentially lose mid-airTongue


aussiechick  (D License)

Feb 26, 2013, 10:52 PM
Post #68 of 69 (517 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't used a paper logbook for the last 300 jumps, but instead use the IPhone skydive log.
It's one less thing to drag around the world with me!
So far it hasn't been a problem, most DZ's are fine with it it, 2 weeks ago at Perris,they simply asked me to copy out the last few jumps onto a ready made log sheet which covers their requirement.


Fearjoburg  (A 7079)

Feb 26, 2013, 11:54 PM
Post #69 of 69 (506 views)
Shortcut
Re: [aussiechick] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

On a different note - I also use the skydive logbook from Itunes.
I did something wrong when I upgraded my iphone and lost all my data - is there a way to restore it?


First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : General Skydiving Discussions

 


Search for (options)