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Logbook: Digital vs Paper

 

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Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 28, 2013, 11:01 PM
Post #26 of 69 (1194 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.


I'll bet with you (you're right). But for now, it is what it is. Signatures are required, and without them, a 'newbie's' logbook doesn't mean much. Not everyone has a smartphone or tablet, either.
We're already seeing systems like Paralog that allow online logbooks to be kept with signatures, and when signatures become part of those online logs from all the different systems, I'll be accepting them at our school. The school already accepts signed e-logs on phones/tablets, or webpages that show a sig.
See attached.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 28, 2013, 11:55 PM)
Attachments: paralog signature.GIF (132 KB)


StephanBeutel

Jan 28, 2013, 11:40 PM
Post #27 of 69 (1184 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Development of Paralog Mobile goes on:
Signing feature will be released in februrary together with improved jump profiles and some bugfixes.
Wink


(This post was edited by StephanBeutel on Jan 28, 2013, 11:57 PM)


tjm  (D 29733)

Jan 28, 2013, 11:45 PM
Post #28 of 69 (1181 views)
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Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Log your first 500 for sure. I wish I would have logged more, but after my D and Pro rating I stopped logging. For rating after that you just need currency and show you meet certain requirements, so theoretically you just need to log the jumps needed for a rating after that. You may have 5000 jumps, but your log book may show 550 to get a coach or tandem rating.

Like I said before I wish I had logged more, but every jump is not necessarly necessary after a certain point. Have a signing party if you have something coming up.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:10 AM
Post #29 of 69 (1170 views)
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Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


That's just BULLSHIT, I will defy ANYONE to show me where my "E" log does not cover the requirements of the USPA, BPA or APF. (dont know if any retarded organisation actually states PAPER is required)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 29, 2013, 12:13 AM
Post #30 of 69 (1165 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


That's just BULLSHIT, I will defy ANYONE to show me where my "E" log does not cover the requirements of the USPA, BPA or APF. (dont know if any retarded organisation actually states PAPER is required)


Squeak, find FAR or organizational rule that says you can't jump a rig with a tunnel cover over it when you exit the plane.Tongue But I'll bet no DZO would allow it.

Many DZ's require paper. Some even have a photocopy of a logbook page under their counter that they'll hand you to fill out in front of them.Crazy


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:21 AM
Post #31 of 69 (1164 views)
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Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But for now, it is what it is. Signatures are required, and without them, a 'newbie's' logbook doesn't mean much.


Well, it is what it is because some people want it that way, and not because it is the best way.

There's something else that bothers me: when someone at a Dropzone checks your logbook, they never ask for I.D., so the logbook and licence could be someone's else. Also, anyone can fake a signature on one jump to be "current". Much easier than to steal someone's else electronic altimeter! (and I can now copy your signature Laugh).

It's all a trust system. If you don't trust the person with the electronic logbook, you call it's home dropzone. Same as you would do if you don't trust someone with a logbook you think has fake entries.

I' m pretty sure if I go to your wingsuit school with my log book, with 250 jumps and signatures, and you've never seen me before, you'll call my home DZ anyways to confirm I really have over 200 jumps.

Sorry If I'm so argumentative, it's a subject that has bogged me for a while!! SmileSmile


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:21 AM
Post #32 of 69 (1161 views)
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Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


That's just BULLSHIT, I will defy ANYONE to show me where my "E" log does not cover the requirements of the USPA, BPA or APF. (dont know if any retarded organisation actually states PAPER is required)


Squeak, find FAR or organizational rule that says you can't jump a rig with a tunnel cover over it when you exit the plane.Tongue But I'll bet no DZO would allow it.

Many DZ's require paper. Some even have a photocopy of a logbook page under their counter that they'll hand you to fill out in front of them.Crazy
Never happened to me at any of the DZs I have been around the world.
In fact the vast majority of them have not even asked to see my Logbook. Just my Rig and Reserve card.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #33 of 69 (1154 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know many won't agree with me, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinion is that a paper logbook is not necessary, and that forcing everyone to have one is retarded.

I can understand some people like to have hem to relive the memories, write details of the jumps they make, or to collect "cool" signatures. To each their own, and I respect that, but personally I have no need for that.

I don't have any USPA ratings, so I'm not sure how that works, but I guess if you need for example 500 jumps to get a rating, after you got that number of jumps a personal logbook is not necessary. And even for a rating I see no reason why a good electronic logbook containing all the pertaining information and signatures could not be acceptable.

Now, in my case, I see no need for a logbook. I jump only for fun, and have no desire whatsoever to ever get any instructional or Pro rating. I have an alti-track that records all my jumps, and all the relevant information for verifying currency if someone wishes to do so.

What really annoys me, is that some people don't want to accept the idea of someone not having a paper logbook. Here's what happened to me recently: I decide to go on a trip to my favorite DZ in the US. I check their website and it is written there that you need a logbook to prove currency, and that an electronic logbook is acceptable, so I only bring my alti-track with me.

Because of work and the end of the summer here, I wasn't current anymore (a bit over 3 months since last jump). So I expected a coach jump. Well, on top of that they asked for a 50$ ground training. Ok, whatever, it's their dropzone, if that's what they require and I'm not happy I can always jump somewhere else. So I decide to take the course without complaining (and the expected coach jump).

After the course the instructor asks for my logbook. I give him my alti-track. To make a long story short, I was forced to buy a paper logbook to enter my recurrency jump if I wanted to jump, and that was not negotiable.

I find that completely stupid, as I was doing a recurrency jump anyways, I had jumped there the year before and had my uspa licence with me. His point is that anyone can steal or take someone else electronic logbook -as if nobody can fake a paper logbook!

Anyways, all that to say that IMO, for licence or ratings requirements a paper logbook is not better that a good electronic logbook (like the skydive log app), and for currency purposes an electronic altimeter with memory is good enough. People that refuse to see that, IMO are closed minded and I refuse to encourage that by using a logbook to make them happy.

A logging altimeter is NOT an electronic logbook. I can buy a used neptune from classifieds- IF it has 1000 jumps on it does that get me a ratingTongue


manseman  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 1:58 AM
Post #34 of 69 (1143 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A logging altimeter is NOT an electronic logbook. I can buy a used neptune from classifieds- IF it has 1000 jumps on it does that get me a ratingTongue
Well, you could also buy a logbook and simply forge the signatures. The chances of getting caught are likely minuscule. I suppose the main reason for a dz demanding to see written signatures (except for students) would be legal.

I guess a proper looking book with signatures and stamps and whatnot is a good thing to bring if you show up all alone and unannounced at a dz where you don't know a soul, expecting to get to jump immediately. I don't know how often people do that, but I think I could make a reasonable guess.


(This post was edited by manseman on Jan 29, 2013, 2:00 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 29, 2013, 2:15 AM
Post #35 of 69 (1135 views)
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Re: [manseman] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

i think it is easier as you get time and jumps in the sport. I am constantly amazed how "small" the world is. I quite frequently cross paths with people who know a common person. I think that makes it more likely that someone whos been around a while will have less logbook scrutiny, than a newbie.

I think that is where squeak is slightly wrong about what is accepted. If youve got less than a year in the sport or less than a couple of hundred jumps, a paper logbook is probably going to be better received.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:42 AM
Post #36 of 69 (1105 views)
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Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink

But if you leave it laying around unguarded, they'll certainly put a picture of their dick on your phone.

Haha, good point!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:45 AM
Post #37 of 69 (1089 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know many won't agree with me, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinion is that a paper logbook is not necessary, and that forcing everyone to have one is retarded.
Maybe Canada is different?

In reply to:
...personally I have no need for that. Now, in my case, I see no need for a logbook. I jump only for fun, and have no desire whatsoever to ever get any instructional or Pro rating.
Cool! Don't keep one. Simple.

In reply to:
What really annoys me, is that some people don't want to accept the idea of someone not having a paper logbook.
And by the same token, some people don't want to accept the current standards.

In reply to:
...Well, on top of that they asked for a 50$ ground training.
I'm sorry, guy. Not every DZ is like that. I hate that.

In reply to:
To make a long story short, I was forced to buy a paper logbook to enter my recurrency jump if I wanted to jump, and that was not negotiable. I find that completely stupid...
Stupidity, I agree.

In reply to:
His point is that anyone can steal or take someone else electronic logbook -as if nobody can fake a paper logbook!
Exactly. More stupidity. Hell the paper is easier to fake than the digital.

In reply to:
Anyways, all that to say that IMO, for licence or ratings requirements a paper logbook is not better that a good electronic logbook
Maybe, maybe not. That's not the point. Current standards is the point. Rebelling against this minor thing is, well, not worth the consequences. Work towards getting the standards changed, instead.

In reply to:
People that refuse to see that, IMO are closed minded
Seeing it, agreeing to it and using it are all different things.
Rhetorical questions: Why can you not accept that not everyone thinks as you do? You do realize that some out here think that YOU are being very close-minded, right?

In reply to:
I refuse to encourage that by using a logbook to make them happy.
...and you are going to continue to have problems of this sort. Expect it.

Geez...all this for a measly $8-$10.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 29, 2013, 5:48 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:53 AM
Post #38 of 69 (1086 views)
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Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

You signed your own logbook?
Oh HORRORS!

Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

Tongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 29, 2013, 5:55 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:59 AM
Post #39 of 69 (1082 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.
I agree. Why the rant now? Nothing ever changes overnight. Let it ride...I'm sure we'll get there sooner or later.


JohnRitch

Jan 29, 2013, 7:16 AM
Post #40 of 69 (1063 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All requirements can be complied with by an electronic logbook. The only problem is people who don't want to change their habits.

It was the same in aviation, where it is A LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have a logbook, and now the vast majority of commercial pilots use electronic logbooks.

Why would a piece of paper have more value than a virtual logbook? We now live in an electronic world, even the money is virtual now, don't tell me a skydiving logbook -that has no legal value- is something so special that can only be done by paper!

I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.

The diference is that not everybody knows how to deal with the wide variety of electronic gizmos out there. But everyone DOES know how to look at a paper logbook - it's a common denominator that works no matter where you go.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:22 AM
Post #41 of 69 (1061 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seeing it, agreeing to it and using it are all different things.
Rhetorical questions: Why can you not accept that not everyone thinks as you do? You do realize that some out here think that YOU are being very close-minded, right?

Well, maybe it is just a question of values. I try to do things because they make sense, not just because it is the way people do things. And if you see something, agree to it and then do something else, well, let's just say it is not the way I do things.

Maybe I am being close minded, but I also know people are always reticent to change, even if it is a change for the best.

In reply to:
Maybe, maybe not. That's not the point. Current standards is the point. Rebelling against this minor thing is, well, not worth the consequences. Work towards getting the standards changed, instead.

It's pretty much what I am trying to do with this thread. Talking about it is a good beginning I believe. Like you do when you talk about spotting techniques or the proper way to determine separation between jumps. After you and others talked about it here I heard a few people start to question the 45 degrees rule for separation at the DZ.

I'm not saying it is a change that can save lives, but I believe if you can improve something why not.


In reply to:
Geez...all this for a measly $8-$10.

It was 12$, so half a jump ticket. And it is pretty big, wich is a big waste of paper and some plastic. Reduce, reuse and recycle Wink


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:38 AM
Post #42 of 69 (1051 views)
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Re: [JohnRitch] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The diference is that not everybody knows how to deal with the wide variety of electronic gizmos out there. But everyone DOES know how to look at a paper logbook - it's a common denominator that works no matter where you go.

If you can read a piece of paper you can read a screen. The owner of the electronic device can open the page you need to see for you. And if you're really old school, they can print the last page of their electronic logbook for you. Smile

Anyways, it's going to change no matter what, I just don't understand why it bothers some people so much -not talking about you.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 29, 2013, 8:33 AM
Post #43 of 69 (1037 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You signed your own logbook?
Oh HORRORS!

Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

Tongue


...Laugh It's someone else' logbook I electronically signed for _them_.

Here is the actual logbook.
Cool


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 29, 2013, 8:37 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 1:33 PM
Post #44 of 69 (995 views)
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Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, maybe it is just a question of values. I try to do things because they make sense, not just because it is the way people do things. And if you see something, agree to it and then do something else, well, let's just say it is not the way I do things.
I understand your feelings. Believe me, I do. The problem is that we have to deal with regulations and laws. Yep, I see something, I agree that it's a good idea, and I'll do something different...because it's a regulation or law, or both. That's not uncommon.

Just as long as you realize that going off on your own like that is not going to produce the results you expect.

In reply to:
It's pretty much what I am trying to do with this thread. Talking about it is a good beginning I believe.
Absolutely! Nobody can fault that! That's the beginning of progress. Anarchy isn't.

In reply to:
I'm not saying it is a change that can save lives, but I believe if you can improve something why not.
Yep. I'm on-board with that.


$12? You was robbed.
Tongue j/k


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:08 PM
Post #45 of 69 (978 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem is that we have to deal with regulations and laws. Yep, I see something, I agree that it's a good idea, and I'll do something different...because it's a regulation or law, or both.

The way I read the SIM, there's no explicit requirement to have the information on paper. Only to have it recorded. Same as other aviation logbooks. So I believe it is just a matter of people learning it is acceptable. Me not logging my jumps on paper is not an infraction. People demanding paper logbooks is them trying to follow a rule that doesn't exist.

In reply to:
Just as long as you realize that going off on your own like that is not going to produce the results you expect.


Viva la revolution!! Pirate

In reply to:
$12? You was robbed.
Tongue j/k

LaughLaughLaugh


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:54 PM
Post #46 of 69 (943 views)
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Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

this looks like an interesting jump AngelicAngelic


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Jan 29, 2013, 6:20 PM
Post #47 of 69 (936 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Click on the chart. You can see his linetwists.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 9:38 PM
Post #48 of 69 (921 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey...open @ 110m ? Ballsy!
LaughLaugh


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 29, 2013, 9:39 PM)


thedude911

Jan 29, 2013, 11:28 PM
Post #49 of 69 (910 views)
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Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

What I see happening eventually is a centralized system in which logged jumps are kept by the USPA.

What I mean is, all USPA certified dropzones (or any DZ for that matter) have to keep electronic records of manifested jumps for everyone which is sent and stored in a centralized database. From there, say a simple website, you as a jumper could sign into the site using your USPA member # and view your jump log, adding comments and such as to what exactly you did, freefall times, speeds, etc etc...and have someone on the load sign off for you with a digital signature. Kind of like if you fill out financial forms or something online you can digitally sign...same concept.


vidiot  (D 2431)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:25 AM
Post #50 of 69 (901 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

For the record: The loop was not cut!

Lesson learned: Two-Handed Cutaway = Bad

Wink


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