Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
Logbook: Digital vs Paper

 


edisoncruz  (B License)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:00 PM
Post #1 of 69 (4671 views)
Shortcut
Logbook: Digital vs Paper Can't Post

Hey Everybody,

So recently I got a Neptune N3 and as a result ended up buying Paralog to keep digital records. For the first 20 or 30 jumps after that I kept up with continuing to write notes in my paper logbook on top of typing notes into Paralog. It's now been a while since I've written anything in my paper logbook but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about some questions that have come to mind:

Would this be a problem when going to a new DZ if my most reliable records are just on my iPhone (via Paralog iOS app)? Does your DZ care? I recently went to Skydive Deland and Skydive Sebastian while home for the holidays and they were totally cool with just looking on my phone but they're also huge and as a result have seen just about everything in the sport.
Would this be an issue for licenses/ratings/etc where I would theoretically need to collect signatures for different qualifications? If you're an instructor, is this something you care about?

Thanks in advance for the help! Please share any thoughts or helpful experience with this sort of thing. Thanks for reading my 1st post on dropzone.com!


Tuna-Salad  (C 38765)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:08 PM
Post #2 of 69 (4627 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

If I've said anything ever intelligent here it will be this. Do not stop writing in the log book. It will reach up and bite you one day at some DZ's if you don't.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:50 AM
Post #3 of 69 (4549 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey Everybody,

So recently I got a Neptune N3 and as a result ended up buying Paralog to keep digital records. For the first 20 or 30 jumps after that I kept up with continuing to write notes in my paper logbook on top of typing notes into Paralog. It's now been a while since I've written anything in my paper logbook but I'm starting to get a bit nervous about some questions that have come to mind:

Would this be a problem when going to a new DZ if my most reliable records are just on my iPhone (via Paralog iOS app)? Does your DZ care? I recently went to Skydive Deland and Skydive Sebastian while home for the holidays and they were totally cool with just looking on my phone but they're also huge and as a result have seen just about everything in the sport.
Would this be an issue for licenses/ratings/etc where I would theoretically need to collect signatures for different qualifications? If you're an instructor, is this something you care about?

Thanks in advance for the help! Please share any thoughts or helpful experience with this sort of thing. Thanks for reading my 1st post on dropzone.com!

SIM Section 3-1

Quote:
C. Logging jumps for licenses and ratings

1. Skydives offered as evidence of qualification must have been:

a. made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump

b. legibly recorded in chronological order in an appropriate log that contains the following information:

(1) jump number

(2) date

(3) location

(4) exit altitude

(5) freefall length (time)

(6) type of jump (formation skydiving, freeflying, canopy formation, style, etc.)

(7) landing distance from the target

(8) equipment used

(9) verifying signature

2. Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

3. Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

If you can show me how you're able to record the signature for each jump on your phone, maybe... but don't count on everyone accepting it.

For my instructor courses, I had to show them my logbook showing freefall time/total jumps.


theplummeter  (C License)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:14 AM
Post #4 of 69 (4525 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Eloy wouldn't take the jumps from my Viso to verify currency, they needed to see my logbook last time I was there.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:54 AM
Post #5 of 69 (4501 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

nothing wrong with BOTH.....
digital...if you have one... BUT hard copy as well.. for Back-Up ANd for sign-offs....

i've always been a log book sort of person and sometimes enjoy going back and re-experiencing skydives... EVEn if they are from years ago....

Not enough time???? to fill out a logbook???

nonsense.... it doesn't have to be immediately AFTER each jump....and can be done Instead of spending time ON a computer..WinkCool
jmy A 3914 D12122


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 6:21 AM
Post #6 of 69 (4488 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

What happens to your digital log book when your digital device gets stolen, or when it's dropped in the toilet destroying the memory card?


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:37 AM
Post #7 of 69 (4477 views)
Shortcut
Re: [theonlyski] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(9) verifying signature

2. Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

3. Jumps to meet skill requirements must be signed by a USPA Instructor, Instructor Examiner, Safety & Training Advisor, or a member of the USPA Board of Directors.

If you can show me how you're able to record the signature for each jump on your phone, maybe... but don't count on everyone accepting it.

For my instructor courses, I had to show them my logbook showing freefall time/total jumps.My iPhone "Skydive Log" will take a signature very easily, its one of the functions of the log and phone.

"Skydive Log, accommodates EVERY requirement from the USPA and from the APF


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:39 AM
Post #8 of 69 (4472 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What happens to your digital log book when your digital device gets stolen, or when it's dropped in the toilet destroying the memory card?

like EVERY other electronic tool. BACK YOUR WORK UP

paper log books can be lost or destroyed too.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:41 AM
Post #9 of 69 (4466 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Digital records require reliable backup. Your computer is not reliable. Synching them out to Google might seem reasonable reliable, but I've heard horror stories about people having their accounts canceled by the company.

Paper records also require reliable backup. It's all fun and games until your logbook gets lost, stolen or destroyed. This is a more insidious problem because you don't often think about backup for your paper records.

Sadly I don't have a good solution for either problem.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:42 AM
Post #10 of 69 (4466 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

What happens when you lose your log book? Same thing!

I have always been terrible about logging. After 1000 jumps I just stopped all together. It's more important when you're first starting out but after a while it really doesn't mean much, to me anyway. When you only have a few hundred jumps a new DZ is probably going to check out your log book more carfeully, so a physical one might be best.


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #11 of 69 (4346 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mr_Polite] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What happens when you lose your log book? Same thing!

The odds of someone wanting to steal your paper log book is MUCH smaller than that of someone wanting to steal your digital phone.

A paper log book that gets wet can be dried out, but a short-circuited memory card is usualliy unrecoverable.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 28, 2013, 3:57 PM
Post #12 of 69 (4285 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a file, you can have it saved in more than one place. You can't easily do that with your log book. One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:28 PM
Post #13 of 69 (4273 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep the log book going regardless of the electronic one.

- Some DZs require you to show one

- If you want ratings of any sort, the Course Director will ask you to prove your jump numbers and freefall time with a logbook with the signatures.

- When you're old and decrepit sitting on your porch in a rocking chair you can pull out the old logbook and relive the memories.

- Get the autographs of both the famous and the infamous...I have some really off-the-wall autographs both related and not related to skydiving


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 28, 2013, 4:59 PM
Post #14 of 69 (4255 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Paper logbooks can be your friend.


darkwing  (D 4164)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:04 PM
Post #15 of 69 (4253 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In 50 years your grandchildren can read your logbooks. That won't happen if you go 100% digital. Believe me, from an old skydiver perspective, you will wish you had written more.


edisoncruz  (B License)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:11 PM
Post #16 of 69 (4248 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay, so it sounds like the consensus is that there will be times where a digital logbook won't be a replacement for a paper/physical logbook. I'll be going home tonight and spending some time updating it then making sure I get signatures going forward.

Re: Losing the digital logbook - That's not a concern. Essentially unless I delete the files then I can't lose it since I keep everything synced between Paralog, my iPhone, Dropbox, and Jumplog.net so I've covered that.

The important aspect seems to be that currently I don't *think* Paralog for iOS/Android supports getting signatures and I'll definitely need that for ratings, according to the USPA rules. The other part is that if I go to a new DZ I'm taking a chance as to whether or not they'll be okay with a digital logbook.

Re: Looking back at old jumps and reliving the memories - I take all my notes in Paralog (check out the screenshots below for an example of all the data from my synced Neptune N3 plus example notes at the bottom). Clearly I'm a big fan of introducing more technology into some parts of the sport :)
Attachments: 2013-01-26 - Paralog iOS Example Jump 117.png (157 KB)
  2013-01-26 - Paralog iOS Example Jump 117 - Data Profile.png (91.5 KB)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 5:49 PM
Post #17 of 69 (4225 views)
Shortcut
Re: [darkwing] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In 50 years your grandchildren can read your logbooks. That won't happen if you go 100% digital. Believe me, from an old skydiver perspective, you will wish you had written more.
in 50 years, the kids wont know what a "book" isSlySlySly


edisoncruz  (B License)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:21 PM
Post #18 of 69 (4206 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post


That's a great article. Thanks, DSE - and everyone for the advice/experience sharing.

Hopefully my screenshots also show that when I'm talking about a digital logbook I don't just mean the data dump from the Neptune (or any other ditter for that matter). Paralog actually allows you to write in notes and record the details of the experience in the same way (it's just typed instead of being in my own writing - which I work in tech so I can go weeks without even touching a pen and paper).

Really the important parts of all this seem to be:
1. That you can record all the details about the jump and experience because those memories and details are important on a number of different levels.
2. That you can get signatures from fellow jumpers and instructors/coaches (particularly if you're going to be working on getting advanced ratings and licenses).


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:32 PM
Post #19 of 69 (4200 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Really the important parts of all this seem to be:
1. That you can record all the details about the jump and experience because those memories and details are important on a number of different levels.
2. That you can get signatures from fellow jumpers and instructors/coaches (particularly if you're going to be working on getting advanced ratings and licenses).
and you can do all of that with the "Skydive Log" app.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 28, 2013, 6:32 PM)


tunde

Jan 28, 2013, 7:28 PM
Post #20 of 69 (4171 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mr_Polite] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink

But if you leave it laying around unguarded, they'll certainly put a picture of their dick on your phone.


(This post was edited by tunde on Jan 28, 2013, 7:31 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 28, 2013, 7:58 PM
Post #21 of 69 (4161 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink

But if you leave it laying around unguarded, they'll certainly put a picture of their dick on your phone.
LOL not on my phone, the camera dont workSlySlySlySly


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 28, 2013, 7:59 PM)


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 28, 2013, 8:19 PM
Post #22 of 69 (4142 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

I know many won't agree with me, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinion is that a paper logbook is not necessary, and that forcing everyone to have one is retarded.

I can understand some people like to have hem to relive the memories, write details of the jumps they make, or to collect "cool" signatures. To each their own, and I respect that, but personally I have no need for that.

I don't have any USPA ratings, so I'm not sure how that works, but I guess if you need for example 500 jumps to get a rating, after you got that number of jumps a personal logbook is not necessary. And even for a rating I see no reason why a good electronic logbook containing all the pertaining information and signatures could not be acceptable.

Now, in my case, I see no need for a logbook. I jump only for fun, and have no desire whatsoever to ever get any instructional or Pro rating. I have an alti-track that records all my jumps, and all the relevant information for verifying currency if someone wishes to do so.

What really annoys me, is that some people don't want to accept the idea of someone not having a paper logbook. Here's what happened to me recently: I decide to go on a trip to my favorite DZ in the US. I check their website and it is written there that you need a logbook to prove currency, and that an electronic logbook is acceptable, so I only bring my alti-track with me.

Because of work and the end of the summer here, I wasn't current anymore (a bit over 3 months since last jump). So I expected a coach jump. Well, on top of that they asked for a 50$ ground training. Ok, whatever, it's their dropzone, if that's what they require and I'm not happy I can always jump somewhere else. So I decide to take the course without complaining (and the expected coach jump).

After the course the instructor asks for my logbook. I give him my alti-track. To make a long story short, I was forced to buy a paper logbook to enter my recurrency jump if I wanted to jump, and that was not negotiable.

I find that completely stupid, as I was doing a recurrency jump anyways, I had jumped there the year before and had my uspa licence with me. His point is that anyone can steal or take someone else electronic logbook -as if nobody can fake a paper logbook!

Anyways, all that to say that IMO, for licence or ratings requirements a paper logbook is not better that a good electronic logbook (like the skydive log app), and for currency purposes an electronic altimeter with memory is good enough. People that refuse to see that, IMO are closed minded and I refuse to encourage that by using a logbook to make them happy.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 9:39 PM
Post #23 of 69 (4122 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi

Different strokes for different folks. You want to go digital no problemo just got to find a dz that will work with you.Wink Your the customer you can go to any DZ that you want to.

But I would find a differnt dz to go to that was more customer friendly and wasn't treating you like a cash cow.Mad

The DZ you went to doesn't have a monoply on jumping they can ask for whatever they want you just have to be be prepared to say no thank you 3,2,1, cya


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 28, 2013, 10:14 PM
Post #24 of 69 (4114 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 28, 2013, 10:29 PM
Post #25 of 69 (4100 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread.

what reasons? All requirements can be complied with by an electronic logbook. The only problem is people who don't want to change their habits.

It was the same in aviation, where it is A LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have a logbook, and now the vast majority of commercial pilots use electronic logbooks.

Why would a piece of paper have more value than a virtual logbook? We now live in an electronic world, even the money is virtual now, don't tell me a skydiving logbook -that has no legal value- is something so special that can only be done by paper!

I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 28, 2013, 11:01 PM
Post #26 of 69 (1611 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.


I'll bet with you (you're right). But for now, it is what it is. Signatures are required, and without them, a 'newbie's' logbook doesn't mean much. Not everyone has a smartphone or tablet, either.
We're already seeing systems like Paralog that allow online logbooks to be kept with signatures, and when signatures become part of those online logs from all the different systems, I'll be accepting them at our school. The school already accepts signed e-logs on phones/tablets, or webpages that show a sig.
See attached.


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 28, 2013, 11:55 PM)
Attachments: paralog signature.GIF (132 KB)


StephanBeutel

Jan 28, 2013, 11:40 PM
Post #27 of 69 (1601 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Development of Paralog Mobile goes on:
Signing feature will be released in februrary together with improved jump profiles and some bugfixes.
Wink


(This post was edited by StephanBeutel on Jan 28, 2013, 11:57 PM)


tjm  (D 29733)

Jan 28, 2013, 11:45 PM
Post #28 of 69 (1598 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Log your first 500 for sure. I wish I would have logged more, but after my D and Pro rating I stopped logging. For rating after that you just need currency and show you meet certain requirements, so theoretically you just need to log the jumps needed for a rating after that. You may have 5000 jumps, but your log book may show 550 to get a coach or tandem rating.

Like I said before I wish I had logged more, but every jump is not necessarly necessary after a certain point. Have a signing party if you have something coming up.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:10 AM
Post #29 of 69 (1587 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


That's just BULLSHIT, I will defy ANYONE to show me where my "E" log does not cover the requirements of the USPA, BPA or APF. (dont know if any retarded organisation actually states PAPER is required)


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:13 AM
Post #30 of 69 (1582 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


That's just BULLSHIT, I will defy ANYONE to show me where my "E" log does not cover the requirements of the USPA, BPA or APF. (dont know if any retarded organisation actually states PAPER is required)


Squeak, find FAR or organizational rule that says you can't jump a rig with a tunnel cover over it when you exit the plane.Tongue But I'll bet no DZO would allow it.

Many DZ's require paper. Some even have a photocopy of a logbook page under their counter that they'll hand you to fill out in front of them.Crazy


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:21 AM
Post #31 of 69 (1581 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But for now, it is what it is. Signatures are required, and without them, a 'newbie's' logbook doesn't mean much.


Well, it is what it is because some people want it that way, and not because it is the best way.

There's something else that bothers me: when someone at a Dropzone checks your logbook, they never ask for I.D., so the logbook and licence could be someone's else. Also, anyone can fake a signature on one jump to be "current". Much easier than to steal someone's else electronic altimeter! (and I can now copy your signature Laugh).

It's all a trust system. If you don't trust the person with the electronic logbook, you call it's home dropzone. Same as you would do if you don't trust someone with a logbook you think has fake entries.

I' m pretty sure if I go to your wingsuit school with my log book, with 250 jumps and signatures, and you've never seen me before, you'll call my home DZ anyways to confirm I really have over 200 jumps.

Sorry If I'm so argumentative, it's a subject that has bogged me for a while!! SmileSmile


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:21 AM
Post #32 of 69 (1578 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Naturally a written log book is the only valid option for verification for many of the reasons in this thread. But paper isn't immune to thieves or toilets last I checked.


That's just BULLSHIT, I will defy ANYONE to show me where my "E" log does not cover the requirements of the USPA, BPA or APF. (dont know if any retarded organisation actually states PAPER is required)


Squeak, find FAR or organizational rule that says you can't jump a rig with a tunnel cover over it when you exit the plane.Tongue But I'll bet no DZO would allow it.

Many DZ's require paper. Some even have a photocopy of a logbook page under their counter that they'll hand you to fill out in front of them.Crazy
Never happened to me at any of the DZs I have been around the world.
In fact the vast majority of them have not even asked to see my Logbook. Just my Rig and Reserve card.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 29, 2013, 12:41 AM
Post #33 of 69 (1571 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know many won't agree with me, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinion is that a paper logbook is not necessary, and that forcing everyone to have one is retarded.

I can understand some people like to have hem to relive the memories, write details of the jumps they make, or to collect "cool" signatures. To each their own, and I respect that, but personally I have no need for that.

I don't have any USPA ratings, so I'm not sure how that works, but I guess if you need for example 500 jumps to get a rating, after you got that number of jumps a personal logbook is not necessary. And even for a rating I see no reason why a good electronic logbook containing all the pertaining information and signatures could not be acceptable.

Now, in my case, I see no need for a logbook. I jump only for fun, and have no desire whatsoever to ever get any instructional or Pro rating. I have an alti-track that records all my jumps, and all the relevant information for verifying currency if someone wishes to do so.

What really annoys me, is that some people don't want to accept the idea of someone not having a paper logbook. Here's what happened to me recently: I decide to go on a trip to my favorite DZ in the US. I check their website and it is written there that you need a logbook to prove currency, and that an electronic logbook is acceptable, so I only bring my alti-track with me.

Because of work and the end of the summer here, I wasn't current anymore (a bit over 3 months since last jump). So I expected a coach jump. Well, on top of that they asked for a 50$ ground training. Ok, whatever, it's their dropzone, if that's what they require and I'm not happy I can always jump somewhere else. So I decide to take the course without complaining (and the expected coach jump).

After the course the instructor asks for my logbook. I give him my alti-track. To make a long story short, I was forced to buy a paper logbook to enter my recurrency jump if I wanted to jump, and that was not negotiable.

I find that completely stupid, as I was doing a recurrency jump anyways, I had jumped there the year before and had my uspa licence with me. His point is that anyone can steal or take someone else electronic logbook -as if nobody can fake a paper logbook!

Anyways, all that to say that IMO, for licence or ratings requirements a paper logbook is not better that a good electronic logbook (like the skydive log app), and for currency purposes an electronic altimeter with memory is good enough. People that refuse to see that, IMO are closed minded and I refuse to encourage that by using a logbook to make them happy.

A logging altimeter is NOT an electronic logbook. I can buy a used neptune from classifieds- IF it has 1000 jumps on it does that get me a ratingTongue


manseman  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 1:58 AM
Post #34 of 69 (1560 views)
Shortcut
Re: [nigel99] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A logging altimeter is NOT an electronic logbook. I can buy a used neptune from classifieds- IF it has 1000 jumps on it does that get me a ratingTongue
Well, you could also buy a logbook and simply forge the signatures. The chances of getting caught are likely minuscule. I suppose the main reason for a dz demanding to see written signatures (except for students) would be legal.

I guess a proper looking book with signatures and stamps and whatnot is a good thing to bring if you show up all alone and unannounced at a dz where you don't know a soul, expecting to get to jump immediately. I don't know how often people do that, but I think I could make a reasonable guess.


(This post was edited by manseman on Jan 29, 2013, 2:00 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 29, 2013, 2:15 AM
Post #35 of 69 (1552 views)
Shortcut
Re: [manseman] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

i think it is easier as you get time and jumps in the sport. I am constantly amazed how "small" the world is. I quite frequently cross paths with people who know a common person. I think that makes it more likely that someone whos been around a while will have less logbook scrutiny, than a newbie.

I think that is where squeak is slightly wrong about what is accepted. If youve got less than a year in the sport or less than a couple of hundred jumps, a paper logbook is probably going to be better received.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:42 AM
Post #36 of 69 (1522 views)
Shortcut
Re: [tunde] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
One other advantage is nobody can stamp your log book with their dick and an ink pad if you have it on your computer Wink

But if you leave it laying around unguarded, they'll certainly put a picture of their dick on your phone.

Haha, good point!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:45 AM
Post #37 of 69 (1506 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know many won't agree with me, and I don't want to upset anyone, but my opinion is that a paper logbook is not necessary, and that forcing everyone to have one is retarded.
Maybe Canada is different?

In reply to:
...personally I have no need for that. Now, in my case, I see no need for a logbook. I jump only for fun, and have no desire whatsoever to ever get any instructional or Pro rating.
Cool! Don't keep one. Simple.

In reply to:
What really annoys me, is that some people don't want to accept the idea of someone not having a paper logbook.
And by the same token, some people don't want to accept the current standards.

In reply to:
...Well, on top of that they asked for a 50$ ground training.
I'm sorry, guy. Not every DZ is like that. I hate that.

In reply to:
To make a long story short, I was forced to buy a paper logbook to enter my recurrency jump if I wanted to jump, and that was not negotiable. I find that completely stupid...
Stupidity, I agree.

In reply to:
His point is that anyone can steal or take someone else electronic logbook -as if nobody can fake a paper logbook!
Exactly. More stupidity. Hell the paper is easier to fake than the digital.

In reply to:
Anyways, all that to say that IMO, for licence or ratings requirements a paper logbook is not better that a good electronic logbook
Maybe, maybe not. That's not the point. Current standards is the point. Rebelling against this minor thing is, well, not worth the consequences. Work towards getting the standards changed, instead.

In reply to:
People that refuse to see that, IMO are closed minded
Seeing it, agreeing to it and using it are all different things.
Rhetorical questions: Why can you not accept that not everyone thinks as you do? You do realize that some out here think that YOU are being very close-minded, right?

In reply to:
I refuse to encourage that by using a logbook to make them happy.
...and you are going to continue to have problems of this sort. Expect it.

Geez...all this for a measly $8-$10.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 29, 2013, 5:48 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:53 AM
Post #38 of 69 (1503 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

You signed your own logbook?
Oh HORRORS!

Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

Tongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 29, 2013, 5:55 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:59 AM
Post #39 of 69 (1499 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.
I agree. Why the rant now? Nothing ever changes overnight. Let it ride...I'm sure we'll get there sooner or later.


JohnRitch

Jan 29, 2013, 7:16 AM
Post #40 of 69 (1480 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All requirements can be complied with by an electronic logbook. The only problem is people who don't want to change their habits.

It was the same in aviation, where it is A LEGAL REQUIREMENT to have a logbook, and now the vast majority of commercial pilots use electronic logbooks.

Why would a piece of paper have more value than a virtual logbook? We now live in an electronic world, even the money is virtual now, don't tell me a skydiving logbook -that has no legal value- is something so special that can only be done by paper!

I bet in a few years nobody will care if you have a paper logbook or not.

The diference is that not everybody knows how to deal with the wide variety of electronic gizmos out there. But everyone DOES know how to look at a paper logbook - it's a common denominator that works no matter where you go.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:22 AM
Post #41 of 69 (1478 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Seeing it, agreeing to it and using it are all different things.
Rhetorical questions: Why can you not accept that not everyone thinks as you do? You do realize that some out here think that YOU are being very close-minded, right?

Well, maybe it is just a question of values. I try to do things because they make sense, not just because it is the way people do things. And if you see something, agree to it and then do something else, well, let's just say it is not the way I do things.

Maybe I am being close minded, but I also know people are always reticent to change, even if it is a change for the best.

In reply to:
Maybe, maybe not. That's not the point. Current standards is the point. Rebelling against this minor thing is, well, not worth the consequences. Work towards getting the standards changed, instead.

It's pretty much what I am trying to do with this thread. Talking about it is a good beginning I believe. Like you do when you talk about spotting techniques or the proper way to determine separation between jumps. After you and others talked about it here I heard a few people start to question the 45 degrees rule for separation at the DZ.

I'm not saying it is a change that can save lives, but I believe if you can improve something why not.


In reply to:
Geez...all this for a measly $8-$10.

It was 12$, so half a jump ticket. And it is pretty big, wich is a big waste of paper and some plastic. Reduce, reuse and recycle Wink


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:38 AM
Post #42 of 69 (1468 views)
Shortcut
Re: [JohnRitch] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The diference is that not everybody knows how to deal with the wide variety of electronic gizmos out there. But everyone DOES know how to look at a paper logbook - it's a common denominator that works no matter where you go.

If you can read a piece of paper you can read a screen. The owner of the electronic device can open the page you need to see for you. And if you're really old school, they can print the last page of their electronic logbook for you. Smile

Anyways, it's going to change no matter what, I just don't understand why it bothers some people so much -not talking about you.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 29, 2013, 8:33 AM
Post #43 of 69 (1454 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You signed your own logbook?
Oh HORRORS!

Jumps for license and rating qualifications must be signed by another licensed skydiver, a pilot, or a USPA National or FAI Judge who witnessed the jump.

Tongue


...Laugh It's someone else' logbook I electronically signed for _them_.

Here is the actual logbook.
Cool


(This post was edited by DSE on Jan 29, 2013, 8:37 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 1:33 PM
Post #44 of 69 (1412 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well, maybe it is just a question of values. I try to do things because they make sense, not just because it is the way people do things. And if you see something, agree to it and then do something else, well, let's just say it is not the way I do things.
I understand your feelings. Believe me, I do. The problem is that we have to deal with regulations and laws. Yep, I see something, I agree that it's a good idea, and I'll do something different...because it's a regulation or law, or both. That's not uncommon.

Just as long as you realize that going off on your own like that is not going to produce the results you expect.

In reply to:
It's pretty much what I am trying to do with this thread. Talking about it is a good beginning I believe.
Absolutely! Nobody can fault that! That's the beginning of progress. Anarchy isn't.

In reply to:
I'm not saying it is a change that can save lives, but I believe if you can improve something why not.
Yep. I'm on-board with that.


$12? You was robbed.
Tongue j/k


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:08 PM
Post #45 of 69 (1395 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem is that we have to deal with regulations and laws. Yep, I see something, I agree that it's a good idea, and I'll do something different...because it's a regulation or law, or both.

The way I read the SIM, there's no explicit requirement to have the information on paper. Only to have it recorded. Same as other aviation logbooks. So I believe it is just a matter of people learning it is acceptable. Me not logging my jumps on paper is not an infraction. People demanding paper logbooks is them trying to follow a rule that doesn't exist.

In reply to:
Just as long as you realize that going off on your own like that is not going to produce the results you expect.


Viva la revolution!! Pirate

In reply to:
$12? You was robbed.
Tongue j/k

LaughLaughLaugh


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:54 PM
Post #46 of 69 (1360 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

this looks like an interesting jump AngelicAngelic


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 29, 2013, 6:20 PM
Post #47 of 69 (1353 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Click on the chart. You can see his linetwists.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 29, 2013, 9:38 PM
Post #48 of 69 (1338 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey...open @ 110m ? Ballsy!
LaughLaugh


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 29, 2013, 9:39 PM)


thedude911

Jan 29, 2013, 11:28 PM
Post #49 of 69 (1327 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

What I see happening eventually is a centralized system in which logged jumps are kept by the USPA.

What I mean is, all USPA certified dropzones (or any DZ for that matter) have to keep electronic records of manifested jumps for everyone which is sent and stored in a centralized database. From there, say a simple website, you as a jumper could sign into the site using your USPA member # and view your jump log, adding comments and such as to what exactly you did, freefall times, speeds, etc etc...and have someone on the load sign off for you with a digital signature. Kind of like if you fill out financial forms or something online you can digitally sign...same concept.


vidiot  (D 2431)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:25 AM
Post #50 of 69 (1318 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

For the record: The loop was not cut!

Lesson learned: Two-Handed Cutaway = Bad

Wink


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #51 of 69 (1166 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

I spend all day programming, trust me I am no Luddite.

It is simple: electronic logbooks can't be verified.

Until the USPA supports a standard for verifying electronic logs, drop zones will require paper.

If you don't log on paper you will have trouble at some point at some dropzone that you would not have with paper.

It's not a technology question it's a business process that has not changed. Until that process is revised, paper is obviously the only "sure thing"

So a piece of paper has more value because the USPA says it does.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #52 of 69 (1162 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you can read a piece of paper you can read a screen. The owner of the electronic device can open the page you need to see for you.

So give me your neptune 3 and I'll jump it all weekend and then you go to another drop zone and tell them that you did those jumps because your neptune has logged them.


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:36 AM
Post #53 of 69 (1159 views)
Shortcut
Re: [thedude911] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What I see happening eventually is a centralized system in which logged jumps are kept by the USPA.

What I mean is, all USPA certified dropzones (or any DZ for that matter) have to keep electronic records of manifested jumps for everyone which is sent and stored in a centralized database. From there, say a simple website, you as a jumper could sign into the site using your USPA member # and view your jump log, adding comments and such as to what exactly you did, freefall times, speeds, etc etc...and have someone on the load sign off for you with a digital signature. Kind of like if you fill out financial forms or something online you can digitally sign...same concept.

Would you be willing to pay a lot more in membership dues to pay for that centralized system to be designed, implemented, maintained, and secured?

Maybe allow people and drop zones to opt in.

If you want to use the electronic log book, you pay an additional 50 cents for your jump ticket.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #54 of 69 (1153 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
It is simple: electronic logbooks can't be verified. (...)
So a piece of paper has more value because the USPA says it does.

What is it that can be verified on paper that can't on an electronic logbook? If it is the signature, we already said some e-logbooks allow that. Where does the USPA say it has to be on paper? They only say it has to be recorded as far as I know.

Quote:
So give me your neptune 3 and I'll jump it all weekend and then you go to another drop zone and tell them that you did those jumps because your neptune has logged them.

Give me your logbook and I'll fill and sign 20 jumps for you. Hey I can even sign with Spot's signature if you prefer! At least for the electronic one someone has to actually jump, which makes it more complicated to fake.


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jan 30, 2013, 11:45 AM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:50 AM
Post #55 of 69 (1141 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Give me your logbook and I'll fill and sign 20 jumps for you.

That is true, you can't prevent forgery in either case.

But the issue isn't "how do we solve it" it is "what will the dropzone accept"

If the USPA says that electronic log books are kosher if they follow the same requirement, then member drop zones won't have a reason to not accept them.

But it is ambiguous at best as far as how a dropzone would interpret the current language.

So until such a point that the USPA makes a definitive statement, paper is obviously better because there is no ambiguity around that.

Don't get me wrong. I'd be happy to write an app that logs and verifies jumps. But I'm not going to write that app if I don't believe dropzones will accept it, and I wouldn't think a jumper would PAY ME for that app if they didn't think a dropzone would accept it.


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jan 30, 2013, 11:50 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 11:55 AM
Post #56 of 69 (1136 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vidiot] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
For the record: The loop was not cut!

Lesson learned: Two-Handed Cutaway = Bad

Wink

200 meters? Not too shabby!

Although I am curious about the two-handed comment.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 30, 2013, 11:55 AM)


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:09 PM
Post #57 of 69 (1126 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the USPA says that electronic log books are kosher if they follow the same requirement, then member drop zones won't have a reason to not accept them.

But it is ambiguous at best as far as how a dropzone would interpret the current language.

So until such a point that the USPA makes a definitive statement, paper is obviously better because there is no ambiguity around that.

I agree. I just sent an e-mail to the USPA, I'm curious to see what they are going to say. Smile


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:10 PM
Post #58 of 69 (1124 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't say you can't chip it marble, paint it on billboard or tattoo it on your forehead either.

I give up. You can be a hard-headed as you want. You keep repeating the same complaint that we've been hearing since e-logs came into being. This is nothing new.

-We've already agreed that the e-log shows the same, and more, info.
-We've already acknowledged both methods can be forged.
-We said repeatedly that most DZs want paper.
-It's obvious that things started out with paper because e-logs were not available back then. THAT"S why DZs want paper...30,000+ of us currently use, and still use, paper.

You can go with the flow or rebel and deal with the consequences until until the DZ of choice chooses to accept e-logs. Have at it.

I could not care less which is acceptable...up until the point where they say paper NOT acceptable.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:16 PM
Post #59 of 69 (1113 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If the USPA says that electronic log books are kosher if they follow the same requirement, then member drop zones won't have a reason to not accept them.

But it is ambiguous at best as far as how a dropzone would interpret the current language.

Well yes and no. DZs can accept anything they care to...even the chipped-in-marble ones. I'm sure USPA will not waste their time and effort to specify either one nor will they direct DZs to accept either or both.

D There's no ambiguity for the vast, vast majority of DZ...it's paper. Simple as that.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:28 PM
Post #60 of 69 (1105 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper, I am sorry if I irritated you.

I'm just thinking now that IF the USPA says it is ok, what would it matter to the dropzones which type of logs we use?

After that, what anyone use would be up to them. Like you say, why would you care what is accepted if your way is?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:41 PM
Post #61 of 69 (1096 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm just thinking now that IF the USPA says it is ok, what would it matter to the dropzones which type of logs we use?

After that, what anyone use would be up to them. Like you say, why would you care what is accepted if your way is?

It really doesn't matter one way or another what the USPA says. What matters is what a DZO wants. USPA doesn't own the dropzone, therefore anything they say is merely an endorsement.


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:57 PM
Post #62 of 69 (1093 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What matters is what a DZO wants.

I know that. That's why I asked "what would it matter to the DZ?"

If the USPA say it is ok for them, Is there a reason why a DZ would still not want to accept them? I know they totally can, but what would be the reasoning, except being against change.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 30, 2013, 1:16 PM
Post #63 of 69 (1082 views)
Shortcut
Re: [vitriol] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
What matters is what a DZO wants.

I know that. That's why I asked "what would it matter to the DZ?"

If the USPA say it is ok for them, Is there a reason why a DZ would still not want to accept them? I know they totally can, but what would be the reasoning, except being against change.

Look, you just don't get it. You say, "I know that" and then you ask again. WTF?

Currently, and forever in the future I would expect, USPA has no say-so.

A DZ CAN accept e-logs if they choose. Is there a reason why not, you ask? Yes, there is but you are asking the wrong people. Call a DZO and ask him/her. I'm sure you will find many reasons....even "I simply don't want to." And guess, what, you have to live with that.

It appears that you are looking for reasons so that you can can argue about them. How do you argue against someone that simply has a preference?

I'm done...cooked...burned out.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 30, 2013, 1:18 PM)


3mpire  (C 39657)

Jan 30, 2013, 1:26 PM
Post #64 of 69 (1075 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well yes and no. DZs can accept anything they care to...even the chipped-in-marble ones. I'm sure USPA will not waste their time and effort to specify either one nor will they direct DZs to accept either or both.

that's true I suppose I was basing my statement off of the assumption that a DZ would be hesitant to accept e-logs out of a concern that they would run afowl of USPA policy and thus open themselves up to some kind of risk in that regard.

But on the underlying point we are in agreement, in that it is what is commonly accepted that gives the medium value. No DZ would say "we don't accept paper log books here" and until that same statement can be true for e-logs, the whole rationale for e-logs is moot.

in either case there isn't much more to be said so I'm bailing out on this one! peace Wink


(This post was edited by 3mpire on Jan 30, 2013, 1:28 PM)


vitriol  (C License)

Jan 30, 2013, 2:05 PM
Post #65 of 69 (1063 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Popsjumper, I am sorry if my posts burned you out. Please feel free to ignore me if you think answering would cause you to feel anything less than good. It's just a forum on the internet, no need to have bad feelings. In the worst case, if nobody awnsers, the thread will die on it's own. And I can live with that.

You are right I don't get it, maybe because english is not my native tongue. I do make an effort to write and understand as good as I can.

I do know DZ can do whatever they want, and that I can choose to comply or go elsewhere. And that's what I did. I did buy the logbook. And will bring it with me when I go back there, in case I meet the same instructor (the DZ itself accepts e-logs).

I do prefer not having a paper logbook. So yes, I am wondering what would be the reasons to argue against them.

For example, if a DZ tells me they don't accept them because the USPA doesn't accept them, I could argue that the USPA does accept them (I'm just assuming for a second here). Maybe they would learn something and then change their mind, maybe not.

If they tell me they don't accept e-logs for a legitimate reason I don't know, I would have learned something.

If they tell me they don't accept e-logs just because they can, well I will have to decide if I comply or go elsewhere, but at least I'll know, and I will have an opinion.


Edited to add:

I've only jumped at 8 different DZ (3 in Canada, 5 in the US), but so far 4 of the DZO themselves have accepted my e-log. The rest of the times I only saw employees, but they also accepted without question. The only exception so far has been one instructor, in a DZ that normally accepts e-logs.


(This post was edited by vitriol on Jan 30, 2013, 2:16 PM)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 30, 2013, 3:17 PM
Post #66 of 69 (1039 views)
Shortcut
Re: [3mpire] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I spend all day programming, trust me I am no Luddite.

It is simple: electronic logbooks can't be verified.

So a piece of paper has more value because the USPA says it does.

That's simply NOT true, the E log I use is JUST as verifiable and a paper log. The information contained with in it is EXACTLY the same as a paper log .
ALL THE INFO.



and the USPA does NOT say the log needs to be paper. The USPA puts NO value on the paper at all.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Jan 30, 2013, 3:18 PM)


LeslieRP  (C License)

Jan 31, 2013, 7:05 PM
Post #67 of 69 (970 views)
Shortcut
Re: [edisoncruz] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not just use both?

I personally would prefer my paper log book over an altimeter that you could potentially lose mid-airTongue


aussiechick  (D License)

Feb 26, 2013, 10:52 PM
Post #68 of 69 (864 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Squeak] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

I haven't used a paper logbook for the last 300 jumps, but instead use the IPhone skydive log.
It's one less thing to drag around the world with me!
So far it hasn't been a problem, most DZ's are fine with it it, 2 weeks ago at Perris,they simply asked me to copy out the last few jumps onto a ready made log sheet which covers their requirement.


Fearjoburg  (A 7079)

Feb 26, 2013, 11:54 PM
Post #69 of 69 (853 views)
Shortcut
Re: [aussiechick] Logbook: Digital vs Paper [In reply to] Can't Post

On a different note - I also use the skydive logbook from Itunes.
I did something wrong when I upgraded my iphone and lost all my data - is there a way to restore it?



Forums : Skydiving : General Skydiving Discussions

 


Search for (options)