Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
peregrine video

 

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AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 10, 2013, 6:46 PM
Post #101 of 156 (3155 views)
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Re: [93626392] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yeah, that photograph in page 2 of the thread speaks volumes.

I just don't see how anyone can look at that photograph and say that PD just happened to come up with a design that is essentially identical.

This is like when people figured out that the Katana and the Samurai were very similar in shape and design (minus the obvious airlocks). The truth finally came out after a little while and PD came clean...


that the Katana was a design evolution from a previous first generation design from Brian Germain they had purchased the rights to and developed. During the same time Germain continued to refrain his previous design and look what happened. Although I had never jumped a Sam with the comp lineset, I understand that it flew similarly to the Katana.

All black canopies out of black helicopters at night, secret developments...so the theories go.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2013, 5:36 AM
Post #102 of 156 (3073 views)
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Re: [93626392] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Point of order: you posted hearsay. Someone told you that someone else did something that someone else had apparently told them they shouldn't have done. It's not cast iron.

I posted what someone had said that has first hand knowledge. Maybe I was not clear enough, but it is not hearsay.

That story you just posted? That's the definition of hearsay.

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

You have no direct experience in the matter, you're just passing on third hand information.

Fair enough, let's put that aside.

Now, look at that photographic comparison that was posted earlier in the thread - what do you say to that?

To me, there are major differences in the two wings in that photo. The wing itself is differently shaped, different nose, different line attachments, different tail deflection, different end cells, different tail construction, etc

The only similarity I see is that they have a curved nose (different degrees of that it appears) and that they are a form of 9 cell. Having watched the two fly side by side in Klatovy, and Dubai they are also worlds apart in the way they fly too. Both very high performance of course, but definitely different.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Feb 11, 2013, 5:38 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 11, 2013, 6:03 AM
Post #103 of 156 (3053 views)
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Re: [93626392] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now, look at that photographic comparison that was posted earlier in the thread - what do you say to that?

I say you should learn how to read. I listed some differences that you could easily see from the pics in a post upthread. The visual differences are not counting any of the things you can't see from the pics, like exact measurements, material specs and internal construction.

All restate this again, how different do you exepct two canopies in the same class to be?

How different is a Velo from a JVX or FX or Xoas 21?

How about a Pliot and a Sabre2? They're both 9 cell, semi-eilpitical, ZP canopies aimed at beginner to intermediate jumpers. Despite being virtually indentical in their physical description, as a posted stated above, the open and fly very differenly. Why is that? Because the things that you can't see, like the exact measurements, material specs, and itnernal construction are different, resulting in a very different wing.

Nobody is pointing at those canopies as being 'rip-offs' of each other, despite the fact that each factory has unlimited access to the other wing for inspection, jumps, and measuring. But in this case, because two parachute companies come up with similar designs when trying to build a canopy for the same purpose, suddenly it's a case of plagarism, and everyone accusing the largest parachute company on earth of not being able to develop their own wing. How does that make any sense?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #104 of 156 (2971 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wouldn't call a pilot and a sabre2 similar. not by its looks nor how they fly. They open differently, have a different recovery arc and the flare is not comparable. This is a whole different story than the PD/NZ Petra/Peregrine.

Incorrect.

Openings: Looking at Nick's video compared with my own experiences, they are different.

Recovery Arc: Hard to tell - both are definitely long "altitude wise" but optimal timing seems different. Can't say for sure as I've never jumped a Petra.

Flare: Very different from watching Nick and Curt to almost identical distance runs back to back.

I think it escapes most jumpers on how difficult it is to build a wing like this that is stable and performs as expected. The idea of looking at another design (photo, at a competition, etc) and "Copying it" is borderline laughable.

Personally I find it really sad that some people (Rhys aka "swoopin" that would be you that I am referring to) are turning something that is great for the sport as a whole (Peregrine and Petra and the advances they bring) into a misinformed pissing match.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Feb 11, 2013, 10:36 AM)


beowulf  (C License)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:38 AM
Post #105 of 156 (2956 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people just like to create controversy and conspiracy theories. Apparently they have nothing better to do.


DocPop  (C License)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #106 of 156 (2943 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Rhys aka "swoopin"

I think that does explain a lot.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Feb 11, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #107 of 156 (2937 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Rhys!? I wondered what happened to that guy!
Good drama.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2013, 11:09 AM
Post #108 of 156 (2920 views)
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Re: [craigbey] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

He's been banned from the site for a little while now. Not sure why (I'd guess Speakers Corner though).

Since the site doesn't allow multiple accounts, especially for banned people, it's safe to say that "swoopin" won't be posting here in their current form.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Feb 11, 2013, 11:09 AM)


craigbey  (C 31991)

Feb 11, 2013, 11:13 AM
Post #109 of 156 (2912 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
that the Katana was a design evolution from a previous first generation design from Brian Germain they had purchased the rights to and developed. During the same time Germain continued to refrain his previous design and look what happened. Although I had never jumped a Sam with the comp lineset, I understand that it flew similarly to the Katana.

Having jumped a KA120 and a Sam120 with the longer lineset, I would only put them in the same class. The Sam is a good canopy, but the Katana still has better performance (harness response, dive, flare).

Something that always makes me chuckle are the comments that the light front riser pressure of the Katana breeds bad habits. Possible. But one can also learn a lot about incorporating harness input into their turns on the Katana because it is so much more responsive.

Thank you PD for continuing this evolutionary process.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 11:21 AM
Post #110 of 156 (2900 views)
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Re: [craigbey] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Having jumped a KA120 and a Sam120 with the longer lineset, I would only put them in the same class. The Sam is a good canopy, but the Katana still has better performance (harness response, dive, flare).

Cool, guess it's sort of a moot point since the Sam isn't in production anymore and their numbers will dwindle. I say that, but you know that there is someone at a 182 DZ somewhere still toggle whip'n his Jonathan while flying a Vector 2.

In reply to:
Thank you PD for continuing this evolutionary process.

Yup! They spend an incredible amount of time and money developing the cutting edge for the sport market.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Feb 11, 2013, 11:28 AM
Post #111 of 156 (2897 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

I know at least 1 person still jumping a Batwing Smile

When a pilot gets attached to their canopy it's a beautiful thing, regardless of the manufacturer and type.

Ian


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Feb 11, 2013, 11:31 AM
Post #112 of 156 (2895 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

The samurai is still being made by Brian but only a few each year.

I think what most of us really want to know is, when will the Russians make a shitty copy for half the price and when can I get one.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 11:34 AM
Post #113 of 156 (2888 views)
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Re: [dqpacker] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The samurai is still being made by Brian but only a few each year.

I think what most of us really want to know is, when will the Russians make a shitty copy for half the price and when can I get one.

No, most of us are wondering when the Russias will make another swoop video like they had a couple of years ago. Not just anyone can chow and rotate into the crowd off the pond!


wildcard451  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 12:09 PM
Post #114 of 156 (2861 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The samurai is still being made by Brian but only a few each year.

I think what most of us really want to know is, when will the Russians make a shitty copy for half the price and when can I get one.

No, most of us are wondering when the Russias will make another swoop video like they had a couple of years ago. Not just anyone can chow and rotate into the crowd off the pond!

You can't just capture that much awesome in one video very many times in your life. At least not with the same people and the same lives.


dima39  (D 177246)

Feb 11, 2013, 1:00 PM
Post #115 of 156 (2834 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No, most of us are wondering when the Russias will make another swoop video like they had a couple of years ago. Not just anyone can chow and rotate into the crowd off the pond!
Russians are more interesting to see opening video of Peregrine, but only see Westerns bla-bla-bla here Smile
Or we will ask Mr.Putin buy whole PD for R@D purpose, grant PDFT russian passports and send them in Siberia for next swoop camp Laugh


(This post was edited by dima39 on Feb 11, 2013, 2:45 PM)


morris

Feb 12, 2013, 6:07 AM
Post #116 of 156 (2699 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Flare: Very different from watching Nick and Curt to almost identical distance runs back to back.
How? More detailed please, thanks!


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 12, 2013, 8:34 AM
Post #117 of 156 (2657 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I know at least 1 person still jumping a Batwing Smile

When a pilot gets attached to their canopy it's a beautiful thing, regardless of the manufacturer and type.

Ian

There's definitely a couple of Batwings still in the air around Georgia!


MarsGirl  (D License)

Feb 12, 2013, 9:34 AM
Post #118 of 156 (2634 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
I think it escapes most jumpers on how difficult it is to build a wing like this that is stable and performs as expected. The idea of looking at another design (photo, at a competition, etc) and "Copying it" is borderline laughable.

Ian

For those who remember the 'summer of love' video series that chronicled the r&d phase that produced the Petra, do you really think PD skipped all of that just by looking at a Petra?

I think people assume that because both wings look similar to one another, but different from what's currently available, (they both have an elliptical leading edge and a straight trailing edge), someone must be copying. Thanks davelepka for pointing out multiple differences that I didn't notice just from one picture/angle.

At worst, they were intrigued by the planform and decided to experiment with it. Really though, do you believe PD has just been sitting on their ass since the velo came out waiting for someone else to give them an idea for a new canopy?


(This post was edited by MarsGirl on Feb 12, 2013, 9:44 AM)


matt002

Feb 12, 2013, 2:52 PM
Post #119 of 156 (2522 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

What's going to happen when these people want to sell their peregrine?

I would assume that if you have bought rather than been given the canopy, you would be free to sell to who ever you choose?

Do PD plan to buy them back?

I imagine this will be the first canopy that has a higher used value than new!


Saker

Feb 12, 2013, 3:30 PM
Post #120 of 156 (2505 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

I've flown both Peregrines and Petra's ;-)

Tried to upload a photo...

Chris.


(This post was edited by Saker on Feb 12, 2013, 6:14 PM)
Attachments: Pere.jpg (74.9 KB)
  Pere5wks.jpg (54.2 KB)


Luck  (D License)

Feb 13, 2013, 2:20 AM
Post #121 of 156 (2420 views)
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Re: [Saker] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice discussion here, but what about the undertaker from firebird,.. looks very simular then the Petra and Peregrine.. and is already on the marked for several years...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3JbTAGEaf8


(This post was edited by Luck on Feb 13, 2013, 2:31 AM)


d123  (B 6134)

Feb 13, 2013, 12:44 PM
Post #122 of 156 (2326 views)
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Re: [Luck] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

[Dr. House Voice]
No, you can't bring 3rd party references or common sense into a brand war! Duh .... When you do that the war fighters feel awkward and weird. Do you understand what you have done wrong?

Let me fix this up. Watch this:

Everybody knows that PD copy-cat the Petra design that looks similar with some speed-flying wings that no skydiver ever heard about, in an attempt to make lots and lots of money by opening it to a hand picked market .... wait .... that doesn't sound right let me try that again.

I'm sure that PD makes tons of money out of those swooping tournaments ... ohhhh .... hmmmmm ... alright 3rd time is a charm.

I'm sure that PD makes a lot more money from sport skydiving addicts who buy 2nd hand wings than from the stable military contracts, so the elite swooping team is just clever marketing for the money machine .... hmmmm damn it's hard for me to believe what I'm writing.

Please buy this and re-start the brand war .... it's about money and has always been with PD.

Smile

[/Dr House Voice]

Or maybe it's about PD ego?


matt002

Feb 13, 2013, 11:31 PM
Post #123 of 156 (2196 views)
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Re: [d123] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

You make it sound as if the military side of the business is some how different to the sport side.
The military is just another customer, and if they didn't care for marketing and brand then they wouldn't be using the Factory Team to train their special forces guys, unless of course they have swoop comps in Iraq and Afgan.
It's all business, marketing and ego, like most things. PD just do it well.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 14, 2013, 3:27 AM
Post #124 of 156 (2152 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
they wouldn't be using the Factory Team to train their special forces guys, unless of course they have swoop comps in Iraq and Afgan.

IEDs does make Zone Acc much more intense...


blueblur  (A 64923)

Feb 14, 2013, 1:32 PM
Post #125 of 156 (2017 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh I'm sorry, you missed the ring by 18 inches, BOOOM


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