Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
peregrine video

 

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matt002

Feb 8, 2013, 2:34 AM
Post #76 of 156 (3059 views)
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Re: [trigger] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Matt not every wannabe has the skill to fly their current canopy let alone the next level.
Look at one of the incidents from last year, guy with 300 jumps pounds in with a velo for example.

Marketing is marketing, not that PD needs to raise brand awareness, but as a generalisation i think people like to associate themselves with the leaders through brands.
Renault Williams does well in F1 lets all go and drive a piece of crap Clio, oh look at me i wear Primani underpants.Tongue

By that logic then, do you not think the standard velo should be subject to the same restrictions?

Perhaps the market for that wing is large enough that there is some profit to be make selling that to the 'public'?

I didn't compete last year but would be disappointed if the sport became more about the gear you have access to rather than the passion you put into your training.
The perigee has very clear and obvious advantage in the distance event, it's not like before where the comp velo had a very slight advantage. It has the potential to create a big split in the results table.


trigger  (D 101390)

Feb 8, 2013, 2:41 AM
Post #77 of 156 (3053 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

I was under the impression it was if you buy from a reputable dealer.
I've brought canopies in the where the seller has asked for proof of experience prior to sale, however sadly in the 2nd hand market proof of money is often the only requirement.


matt002

Feb 8, 2013, 2:53 AM
Post #78 of 156 (3048 views)
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Re: [trigger] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of interest, what canopy was that? A new canopy I take it from a dealer?

I've only bought 1 katana, 1 standard and 2 comp velos from new and the only 'check' was the order form question asking for jump numbers.


DivingWombat  (B License)

Feb 8, 2013, 3:10 AM
Post #79 of 156 (3034 views)
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Re: [swoopin] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In the case of "petra" it looks like PD is more like a chinese company than an american one.

the peregrine looks like/is a 100% copy of nz aerosports petra. not illegal, fine. I'd go for the original one and support nz aerosports (not saying that I'd fly such a canopy within the next couple of years).


trigger  (D 101390)

Feb 8, 2013, 3:17 AM
Post #80 of 156 (3030 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Brought a 109 XF2 from Matt @ Hinton who responsibly imo asked for proof of experience prior to sale.
He could have sold it sooner if he was a no questions asked type.
Though the seller of my JVX didn't ask for proof i did state my experience prior to purchase so possibly saved him the bother.

I personnally prefer Matts approach to resale after all you wouldn't give a monkey a loaded gun would you.


AggieDave  (D License)

Feb 8, 2013, 3:31 AM
Post #81 of 156 (3024 views)
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Re: [trigger] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Every canopy I've sold I have called out to the buyer's DZ and chatted with the S&TA or someone of similar experience to make sure the person should have that canopy. It takes a little effort, but if the person buying the canopy has any experience at all, they tend to understand and appreciate it.


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 3:42 AM
Post #82 of 156 (3020 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In the case of "petra" it looks like PD is more like a chinese company than an american one.
you got to compare them ? lucky you


DivingWombat  (B License)

Feb 8, 2013, 4:23 AM
Post #83 of 156 (3003 views)
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Re: [piisfish] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

What I posted was and still is my point of view. I don't need anybody to agree on it nor trying to discredit my opinion.


craigbey  (C 31991)

Feb 8, 2013, 4:37 AM
Post #84 of 156 (2995 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Every canopy I've sold I have called out to the buyer's DZ and chatted with the S&TA or someone of similar experience to make sure the person should have that canopy.

Whoa ... you start doing that and soon the government will step in and monitor, regulate, control or restrict this private transaction. Best keep this strictly between buyer and seller.

Oh, wrong forum?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 8, 2013, 4:39 AM
Post #85 of 156 (2990 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the peregrine looks like/is a 100% copy of nz aerosports petra.

You say this based on what? The fact that they're both built of nylon, are rough;y rectangular, and have lines attaching them to the risers?

Along that same logic, I could say that a Jetta is a straight cospy of a Civic. They both have 4 wheels, an engine in the front, and steer via a circualr wheel located by one of the front seats, no?

Unless you have studied the patterns and construction manual for both canopies, you don't know what you're talking about.

Much like the car example, the exact shape the individual parts can make a big difference. An economy tire and a race tire are very silimar, with the only difference being the size and rubber compound. The exact shape of the wing and material used makes a legitimate difference, and is enough to make the two canopies 'different' unless they are exactly the same.

The construction is another story. The original x-brace, the Excalibur, was a great canopy but it was too hard to build them efficiently and turn a profit. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his Sensei, it was x-braced and airlocked, and too complicated to build to make sense (and a great canopy from what I heard). The point is that just being able to put a canopy together is an achievement in itself. So again, unless the contruction manual was included with the Petra that PD 'stole', and they followed it step-by-step, then PD did the work of figuring how to build their own wing.

Let's get real people, parachutes are all very similar. Every one on the market to today is a ram-air style wing, with a slider and lineset, all looking very similar to the Cruise Lite I used to jump as a student. What's different? The size, shape, material specs, and construction technuiques are new, but the basic 'platform' is the same.

Want to prove that PD stole something? Show that the patterns, materials, and construction techniques are exactly the same, and then you have an argument. Short of that, it's just the nature of the beast.


DivingWombat  (B License)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:19 AM
Post #86 of 156 (2966 views)
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Re: [davelepka] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

It's always the same manner here on DZ. A guy with lots of jumps and many years of experience (not saying that it doesn't might be a big bonus in many cases) is showing up and puts dozens of lines togehter to prove that others must be wrong.
Then the "war" starts and the whole thread is just worthless.

Again, it is my opinion. I do believe that PD copied petra. I might be wrong but common sense tells me an other story.

You're right, I don't have the two canopies with me to compare it. Would be interesting to know what a guy tells you who jumped both canopies.
Then again, look at the attached picture in the thread and tell me they are not very very similar (besides the colour and the jumpers).

Similar like comparing a jetta and a civic!?!? I would accept that point of view when comparing a navigator 260 and a xf 129.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 8, 2013, 5:52 AM
Post #87 of 156 (2951 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's always the same manner here on DZ. A guy with lots of jumps and many years of experience (not saying that it doesn't might be a big bonus in many cases) is showing up and puts dozens of lines togehter to prove that others must be wrong.

My jump numbers or experience are not a factor here. I haven't jumped or even seen either one in person, so I'm just going off of common sense.

Again, let's use the tire example. A car guy would know the differences between a wide, sticky, high performance tire, and one for an economy car. To a chick (for the most part), they're both just 'tires', round, black, and they belong on a car. What it comes down to is the techincal and very specific differences between the two that set them apart.

So looking at the two canopies, without knowledge of the technical aspects of the two, you cannot make the sort of judgement that you're making. Well, you can, but logic is not on your side.

Let's really 'look' at them, in the side-by-side pic that was posted. Here's what I see as 'different'

- The leading egde of the upper skin on the Petra comes down to a point in between the cells, while the PD canopy (not sure if it's a Peregrine) has the upper/lower skins meet in a horizontal line.

- The cell openings on the Petra are a symetrical diamond/oval shape, while the PD canopy cell openings are curved along the lower edge and more triangular along the upper edge.

-The side of the Petra looks to be a straight line, and meets the tail in a sharp 90 degree corner, while the PD canopy appears to 'bulge' along the side toward the tail, and the rear corner is more rounded than 'square'.

So there are three difference right there, and we're still not talking about the patterns, materials, and internal construction.

Just for shits and giggles, let's take the Sabre2 and the Pilot, two canopies that are aimed at the same market segment and that have never been called copies of one another. What are the differences between the two?


piisfish

Feb 8, 2013, 5:55 AM
Post #88 of 156 (2950 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Again, it is my opinion. I do believe that PD copied petra. I might be wrong but common sense tells me an other story.
this is why they named it (american accent) PetraGrinder(/american accent)... It was to take a piss in the Velocity Xterminator Laugh
I concurr that they LOOK a lot like eachother. now to say that it is a chinese copy... At least admit it is an american copy


DivingWombat  (B License)

Feb 8, 2013, 6:23 AM
Post #89 of 156 (2936 views)
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Re: [davelepka] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

I've seen the "little" differences on the picture. PD has the skills and hopefully the will to improve the design.

It will be interesting to see the results on competitions and what pilots will tell who've flown both.

I wouldn't call a pilot and a sabre2 similar. not by its looks nor how they fly. They open differently, have a different recovery arc and the flare is not comparable. This is a whole different story than the PD/NZ Petra/Peregrine.

Piisfish
I know the story about the VelocityEXterminator ;)
And yes...we can call it "american copy" or even better "APS=Advanced Parachute Manufacture" because they sure improved some areas...


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 8, 2013, 6:34 AM
Post #90 of 156 (2930 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I wouldn't call a pilot and a sabre2 similar. not by its looks nor how they fly. They open differently, have a different recovery arc and the flare is not comparable. This is a whole different story than the PD/NZ Petra/Peregrine

You say this based on knowledge of the openings and flight characteristics of both the Petra and Peregrine?

Again, the S2 and Pilot are quite simialr. Both 9-cell, non x-brace, both semi-eliptical, both ZP, both offered with simialr line types, both aimed at the beginer/intermediate jumper. Of coruse, you see them as different because of opening or flight characteristics.

Here's a pic of each, you tell me they don't look the same -
http://www.skydivechicago.com/...stid/1754/view/topic
http://www.dropzone.com/...Sabre_2__118568.html

So they look the same, are built of similar materials and design, and are aimed at the same customer, but they're completely different, right?

Why is the Petra/peregrine any different? Very similar from the outside to the untrained eye, but easily as different as the Pilot and Sabre2.


DivingWombat  (B License)

Feb 8, 2013, 7:09 AM
Post #91 of 156 (2909 views)
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Re: [davelepka] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

What is you point?
Do you feel happy if you can or try to put people in the corner? Is it all about being right in any case?

Calm down and accept that others have different opinions (even you think they might be wrong). You write posts like you'd be above all else. Using simple examples to explain something might help in some cases but sometimes you try to look others like complete fools.

We know that the pilot and s2 are different in many aspects. We don't know yet about petra and peregrine.

I am out of this discussion.
Have fun and be kind to each other.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Feb 8, 2013, 7:20 AM
Post #92 of 156 (2902 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We don't know yet about petra and peregrine

That, is my point. We don't know, yet you're willing to cast PD as thieves and on-par with Chinese knock-off manufacturers.


morris

Feb 8, 2013, 11:05 AM
Post #93 of 156 (2811 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I didn't compete last year but would be disappointed if the sport became more about the gear you have access to rather than the passion you put into your training.
The perigee has very clear and obvious advantage in the distance event, it's not like before where the comp velo had a very slight advantage. It has the potential to create a big split in the results table.

I think this thought of Matt is worth reading again!

What Id like to add is that I like the fact that there are safetyconcerns of the manufacturer if it comes to a product that most of the times is "operated" at loadings above 3.
Only the requirements to be cleared to get access to the product might be more precise?
I guess being asked for proof of experience with ultrahighloadings (XRW?) in addition to proof of certain speedtimes and performance- or competitionclassdistances would be widely accepted...


jakee  (C License)

Feb 9, 2013, 2:09 PM
Post #94 of 156 (2685 views)
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Re: [swoopin] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lol. I post a true observation on a public forum.

Point of order: you posted hearsay. Someone told you that someone else did something that someone else had apparently told them they shouldn't have done. It's not cast iron.


pyrobee92  (D License)

Feb 9, 2013, 5:08 PM
Post #95 of 156 (2631 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

My question is has Pd figured out what the safe min-max wing loading is? If so what?


swoopin

Feb 9, 2013, 7:15 PM
Post #96 of 156 (2612 views)
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Re: [jakee] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Point of order: you posted hearsay. Someone told you that someone else did something that someone else had apparently told them they shouldn't have done. It's not cast iron.

I posted what someone had said that has first hand knowledge. Maybe I was not clear enough, but it is not hearsay.

It is fact.


jakee  (C License)

Feb 10, 2013, 1:31 AM
Post #97 of 156 (2571 views)
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Re: [swoopin] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Point of order: you posted hearsay. Someone told you that someone else did something that someone else had apparently told them they shouldn't have done. It's not cast iron.

I posted what someone had said that has first hand knowledge. Maybe I was not clear enough, but it is not hearsay.

That story you just posted? That's the definition of hearsay.

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

You have no direct experience in the matter, you're just passing on third hand information.


hjumper33  (F 1)

Feb 10, 2013, 3:22 PM
Post #98 of 156 (2445 views)
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Re: [DivingWombat] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

I could care less about swooping or cross braced canopies, but reading this thread is hilarious. Those two canopies look vitually identical, and if they were developed without any knowledge of the other, i would be shocked beyond belief.

The tire comparison would be like two people on opposite side of the world coming up with the exact same tire dimensions, tread pattern, and measurements. Not exactly apples to oranges comparison people are trying to make it.

It happens in the BASE world which I am very familiar when people straight copy designs. I just think its funny that people are saying "no theres no way possible, that could never happen!". It happens.


93626392

Feb 10, 2013, 6:35 PM
Post #99 of 156 (2408 views)
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Re: [hjumper33] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could care less about swooping or cross braced canopies, but reading this thread is hilarious. Those two canopies look vitually identical, and if they were developed without any knowledge of the other, i would be shocked beyond belief.

The tire comparison would be like two people on opposite side of the world coming up with the exact same tire dimensions, tread pattern, and measurements. Not exactly apples to oranges comparison people are trying to make it.

Yeah, that photograph in page 2 of the thread speaks volumes.

I just don't see how anyone can look at that photograph and say that PD just happened to come up with a design that is essentially identical.


93626392

Feb 10, 2013, 6:37 PM
Post #100 of 156 (2409 views)
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Re: [jakee] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Point of order: you posted hearsay. Someone told you that someone else did something that someone else had apparently told them they shouldn't have done. It's not cast iron.

I posted what someone had said that has first hand knowledge. Maybe I was not clear enough, but it is not hearsay.

That story you just posted? That's the definition of hearsay.

Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another person concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.

You have no direct experience in the matter, you're just passing on third hand information.

Fair enough, let's put that aside.

Now, look at that photographic comparison that was posted earlier in the thread - what do you say to that?


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