Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
peregrine video

 

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bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 28, 2013, 11:02 PM
Post #26 of 156 (3673 views)
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Re: [davelepka] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's say the new canopy is 10% better then the Comp Velo. That might not seem like alot, but when you're out at the far end of the performance spectrum, the gains are harder to come by, so 10% would be a good step up.

So you have a canopy that's 10% better, so unless you can get 90% or better out of the new canopy, you might as well just fly a Comp Velo, and keep working toward that 100%. Unless you're already maxed on the Comp Velo, a faster canopy is just a waste of fabric.

So lets say you could fly 100m on your comp velo in some weather, but you only go 90m. With the peregrine you could go 110m, but since you are not so skilled you only fly it at 90% and get 99m. So without improving your skills at all you get 9 meters longer. Is that really such a waste of fabric? Can't you keep improving your skills on the peregrine or do you stop improving once you change canopy? If you just improve 1% you would get further when you ever could with the comp velo in this imaginary scenario. Would that be a waste of fabric?

If we follow your reasoning to the absurd, why should anyone fly a comp velo or even a velo? I doubt very few people has flown any canopy at 100%, least of all many times in a row, so perhaps we should all stay on a navigator or perhaps the good old manta? No?


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:12 AM
Post #27 of 156 (3642 views)
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Re: [bofh] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If we follow your reasoning to the absurd, why should anyone fly a comp velo or even a velo?

Forget absurd, how about to reality? As mentioned, when the 97/107 sized Stilettos first came out, you needed a 'solid' reccomendation and you had sigtn a 'small canopy' waiver. The community wasn't ready for that much performance with no restrictions.

Likewise with the Comp Velo, they weren't that easy to get your hands on in the first place. Truth be told, the PD Team jumped versions of the Comp Velo for years before they were let loose on the general public. Even then, they were deemed to be just one step up from a Velo, and that 'people' could handle that without restriction.

Now we have the Peregrine (well, we don't have it, but some people do). Isn't there a chance that it's more canopy that everyone is thinking it is, and that it's probably not a good idea just to cut it loose to the general public? Again, look at cars and motorcylces, the factories all have racing teams with hardware that nobody else can get their hands on, and levels of performance that require a 'pro' to handle with any degree of safety.


jurgencamps  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 4:59 AM
Post #28 of 156 (3629 views)
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Re: [bofh] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

So lets say you could fly 100m on your comp velo in some weather, but you only go 90m. With the peregrine you could go 110m, but since you are not so skilled you only fly it at 90% and get 99m. So without improving your skills at all you get 9 meters longer. Is that really such a waste of fabric? Can't you keep improving your skills on the peregrine or do you stop improving once you change canopy? If you just improve 1% you would get further when you ever could with the comp velo in this imaginary scenario. Would that be a waste of fabric?

If we follow your reasoning to the absurd, why should anyone fly a comp velo or even a velo? I doubt very few people has flown any canopy at 100%, least of all many times in a row, so perhaps we should all stay on a navigator or perhaps the good old manta? No?

Or you can dig a bigger crater.
Who says that you can fly it also at 90%?

When the velo just came out, I have seen several skydivers who thought that they were able to fly a velo. After some landings, they learned the lesson and sold it.
Do not forget that a "higher" performance canopy, is inherent more demanding, more agressive and more dangerous.

A formula 1 race-car is not suited neither for very experienced drivers, only for some highly trained, very skilled ... , on a racetrack.

Jurgen


matt002

Jan 29, 2013, 5:21 AM
Post #29 of 156 (3619 views)
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Re: [davelepka] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

When I got my first x braced canopy, my average distances in nill wind went up from 80m to 95m, when I changed to a comp velo they went to 108m and that was straight out of the box, no difference in technique at all, the canopy simply had a little more.
I have no reason to assume my average distances would not be greater on this new wing.

I don't think that it is possible to fly your currently wing at 100% max potential all the time, a good target and sound advice, yes but achievable, no. It's just not possible even for professionals.

I don't like the Formula 1 or NASCAR analogy as there are no amateur teams in either of those sports.

At any world meet of canopy piloting the vast majority of competitors are not professionals, just passionate amateurs, and IMO are mostly experienced enough to fly this wing in a safe manner.


(This post was edited by matt002 on Jan 29, 2013, 5:26 AM)


shaggio  (D 24763)

Jan 29, 2013, 5:54 AM
Post #30 of 156 (3604 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

I really commend PD for this!! At nationals last year there was a survey that competitors could take the time to fill out. If you read the comments most felt like the PD team and the test pilots for the Petra had an advantage using the new wings since they were not released. So PD is trying to do its best to answer this complaint while keeping competitive swooping as safe as they can keep it.

I just hope for those that are qualifited the lead time is short enough that they can get it soon enough to be a factor in 2013 because the season starts in a week.

Lets not forget a few things.
1. With all of the focus on people killing themselves under perfectly good canopies if there is all of the sudden a rash of accidents that is bound to happen under a new wing sold to the general public there wont be any more competitions anyway and the complete market goes away.

2. At least PD has taken this step with their prototype. I dont see an order form for the Petra made public either and Nick has been competing of that longer than the PD boys were competing on their Prototype.

3. This canopy is not made for beer line swoopers. If you want one the process is quite simple. Go to www.swoopleague.com and register for the FLCPA circuit. When you get there prove that your skills can take this sport up another level rather than down two levels and I am quite sure someone will notice.

PS. I have been checking my mailbox and my invite has not come either. HMMM, maybe I have work to do?


bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 29, 2013, 6:38 AM
Post #31 of 156 (3581 views)
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Re: [matt002] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't like the Formula 1 or NASCAR analogy as there are no amateur teams in either of those sports.

Its also a rather bad analogy from a technical point of view as those cars are designed according to specific race rules that not only prevent the ultimate performance, but also make the cars harder to drive. Street legal cars with more power are available for anyone with enough cash and they can be driven by your average millionaire.


But it is an interesting move by PD. They take responsibility away from the buyer. So what happens when someone still dies under a peregrine? Is there a happy lawyer that claim they encouraged the jumper to get a too fast canopy by approaching him with the offer? Or that they were negligent when they didn't use the same power to prevent someone from buying a velo?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 29, 2013, 6:54 AM
Post #32 of 156 (3572 views)
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Re: [bofh] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
They take responsibility away from the buyer.

Not at all.

There's a difference between stacking the odds against an incident vs pretending like an incident won't happen because of the criteria.

The bottom line is that not everyone is going to be happy but EVERYONE has an avenue to get one. Whether they do or not is up to them.

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jan 29, 2013, 6:55 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:33 AM
Post #33 of 156 (3548 views)
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Re: [craigbey] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just curious if the skills and technique required to fly a comp Velo at its peak translate to the Peregrine? Can you reveal some of the primary differences in flight characteristics?

Looks like a very different wing.

From what I have heard (and clearly I am nowhere near flying one of these things) they open hard and are trimmed extremely steep.

Initiation altitudes have to go way up for the same degree of turn. I don't know if they require a dramatically different technique to max out.

One PDFT member told me that they wanted the HnP altitudes for swoop comps to be raised due to how much altitude is lost during the normal post-opening housekeeping. What was fine with a Comp Velo is barely enough altitude for a Peregrine.

I don't know anything about riser pressure, but I have heard that they have a two-step rear riser control. Step one is to plane out the wing and then when you think you might need to go to toggles you can give it a little bit more with the Peregrine and it will keep flying without compromising the toggle response.

Again this is second-hand info and I am not sure if Ian feels able to comment on the above statements, but clearly he is best placed to do so.

Regarding the restricted market. I am all for it and I think that anyone who complains about and wants one should get on the CP circuit and earn one.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 29, 2013, 7:44 AM
Post #34 of 156 (3542 views)
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Re: [DocPop] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
they open hard

Nope. Quicker for sure, definitely not hard.

Quote:
trimmed extremely steep.

Can't comment on that, but of course higher loadings = faster descent rate.

Quote:
Initiation altitudes have to go way up for the same degree of turn.

Yes.

Quote:
One PDFT member told me that they wanted the HnP altitudes for swoop comps to be raised due to how much altitude is lost during the normal post-opening housekeeping. What was fine with a Comp Velo is barely enough altitude for a Peregrine.

Not sure if higher altitudes are the answer. It might be more tricky to have 4 Peregrines on the same pass - time will tell if any changes are needed in this area Smile

Quote:
I don't know anything about riser pressure, but I have heard that they have a two-step rear riser control.

Disagree. Same rear riser rules apply as always. There's a lot more "power" in them but functionally nothing is changing there. Timings, of course, are different but I wouldn't define it in 'stages'

Peace.
Ian


bofh  (D 13995)

Jan 29, 2013, 7:45 AM
Post #35 of 156 (3539 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
They take responsibility away from the buyer.

Not at all.

There's a difference between stacking the odds against an incident vs pretending like an incident won't happen because of the criteria.

The bottom line is that not everyone is going to be happy but EVERYONE has an avenue to get one. Whether they do or not is up to them.

Ian

Yes, I expressed myself a bit poorly there. What I meant is that PD does assume some responsibility in choosing who will have the opportunity to buy the canopy. The buyer can of course decline to buy it if approached.


AdD  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #36 of 156 (3498 views)
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Re: [bofh] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

There are a lot of good swoopers who do not compete at all. The fact is the CP circuit is not the easiest to access for people who reside north of Florida. PD can obviously do whatever they want with their products, maybe it is a sign of progress, the times etc, but I am not sure that limiting access to this wing is going to have any material effect on canopy related fatalities/injuries.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 29, 2013, 9:17 AM
Post #37 of 156 (3496 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for setting me straight on a few things there!


craigbey  (C 31991)

Jan 29, 2013, 11:05 AM
Post #38 of 156 (3447 views)
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Re: [DocPop] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Very cool. Thank you both.

Looks like the result of some new advances in the design of the wing / trim / material to handle the additional loading, dive like a mofo, give the rears more power ... and still open like a PD product.

Angelic


adamT  (D 26819)

Jan 31, 2013, 1:59 PM
Post #39 of 156 (3206 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

How do I get on the list for a demo of this bird?


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 31, 2013, 2:13 PM
Post #40 of 156 (3203 views)
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Re: [adamT] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How do I get on the list for a demo of this bird?

youll have to move to FL so PD can "notice" you


jacketsdb23  (D 29802)

Jan 31, 2013, 2:37 PM
Post #41 of 156 (3191 views)
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Re: [SRI85] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

California will also have canopy piloting competitions that PD watches very closely.

So, i don't think you have to move to Florida. But...I do think you have to compete Regionally and/or Nationally. The intent of this canopy is that its a dedicated competition canopy...so if you aren't competing, there is really no reason to have one.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 31, 2013, 2:40 PM
Post #42 of 156 (3185 views)
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Re: [SRI85] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
How do I get on the list for a demo of this bird?

youll have to move to FL so PD can "notice" you

I've never lived in fl :)


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 31, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #43 of 156 (3172 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Close enough!


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 31, 2013, 11:58 PM
Post #44 of 156 (3072 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
How do I get on the list for a demo of this bird?

youll have to move to FL so PD can "notice" you

I've never lived in fl :)

Yeah, but people "notice" you Tongue


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Feb 1, 2013, 1:13 PM
Post #45 of 156 (2940 views)
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Re: [SRI85] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

what about Pablo, Brian, Gage, and the Frenchie?


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Feb 1, 2013, 1:30 PM
Post #46 of 156 (2934 views)
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Re: [Remster] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

They notice him because he wears tight shirts. Sly

Somebody made a point about people wanting to "raise hop and pop altitudes' for swoop comps. Do any of you remember the genesis of why that is?

Prior to competitors routinely jumping RDS in meets, we all exited in passes of four broken down by (generally) by team and in wingload order from highest to lowest so that nobody "stacked up" and got cut off. Being able to maintain stack discipline is a basic skill that anyone competing ought to be able to manage.

Once RDS systems started showing up more and more in competitions, some people with heavier wingloads (and RDS systems) where whining that they ought to be able to exit last because they took so long to remove, roll-up, and stow their shit. It became a problem in meets because then, after getting their shit stowed, they would encroach on the lower-wingloaded guys who had already set up the stack and then people would bitch because they got "cut off" or "couldn't get to their turn initiation point due to traffic. Whining and rejumps followed.

Once pretty much everyone on the Pro-side of the events started using full RDS in competition then the exit problems SHOULD have ended as peoiple then SHOULD have started exiting in wingload order with no exceptions. It's definitely not rocket science: on a pass of four the first guy takes like a ten second delay, second a bit less, third a bit less, and the last guy out dumps out the door. THAT is how the stack sets itself up. It's your job as a competitor to maintain stack discipline and land in order without hosing your buddies. Did it fix it? Nope. People still bitch(ed) because they all want to dump straight out the door and have the most time possible to stow, wait for everyone else to get out of the way, then get that perfect setup. Lots of buddy fucking going on because people are afraid to take their canopies on a ten second delay.....Odd.

I cannot imagine that any promoter is ever going to talk a DZ into dropping down to two a pass to decrease traffic. Two reasons: gas costs and the amount of time it would add to the event. I also seriously doubt you are going to get a DZO to give you more than five grand for hop and pop prices. Jesus, I can't count the times at meets where we got 4000 feet and just had to get it done.

Chuck
ECPA/PPPB/PST Pro (1999-2005)


dima39  (D 177246)

Feb 2, 2013, 6:46 AM
Post #47 of 156 (2826 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Can we see video of the openings :)?
Subterminal and terminal, do you have them?


blueblur  (A 64923)

Feb 2, 2013, 8:13 AM
Post #48 of 156 (2803 views)
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Re: [dima39] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can we see video of the openings :)?
Subterminal and terminal, do you have them?

You won't find terminal opening videos as this is strictly a sub-terminal canopy as per PD.


dima39  (D 177246)

Feb 4, 2013, 2:54 PM
Post #49 of 156 (2498 views)
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Re: [blueblur] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, terminal is a Big secret Wink.
Lets start with subterminal opening video, WL 3.0+ Smile!


(This post was edited by dima39 on Feb 4, 2013, 2:54 PM)


blueblur  (A 64923)

Feb 5, 2013, 8:06 AM
Post #50 of 156 (2397 views)
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Re: [dima39] peregrine video [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ok, terminal is a Big secret Wink.
Lets start with subterminal opening video, WL 3.0+ Smile!

Quote:
Everything about the Peregrine (line, fabric, aerodynamics, etc.) has been optimized for maximum flight performance, and (only) for the sub terminal deployments used in canopy piloting competitions.

No big secret, per PD as quoted above from their website, emphasis is mine.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/peregrine_info.asp


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