Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga

 


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Jan 21, 2013, 8:26 PM
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If you see a white Safire 129 being jumped in your neck of the woods, watch out, this guy has mad skillz.

Holy hell, it's like watching a train wreck, somebody has hopefully pulled this guy aside for a talk about basic canopy control, progression, downsizing, and general safety.

WTF...

"Just downsized from Triathlon-160 to Safire 2 - 129.
Learning to swoop, jumps approx 100-166.
ANY suggestions / drills / comments WELCOME!

Jump# in the corner.
All videos are at 2x speed!"

http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be


(This post was edited by SEREJumper on Jan 21, 2013, 8:42 PM)


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 21, 2013, 8:33 PM
Post #2 of 126 (14627 views)
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Loaded at 1.4 at 112 jumps.

sigh


wildcard451  (D License)

Jan 21, 2013, 10:01 PM
Post #3 of 126 (14577 views)
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Its videos like this that make you hope that they they "just" break a leg when they learn their lesson. I hope they don't kill themselves or others.

Watching that shit through traffic thinks we have another Danny Page style death on our hands sooner than later.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 21, 2013, 10:32 PM
Post #4 of 126 (14563 views)
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So, who is it?


angle228  (B License)

Jan 21, 2013, 11:41 PM
Post #5 of 126 (14536 views)
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Oops is all he has to say about #147 at 1:52... you have got to be fucking me. That is practically attempted murder.

That shit is how we die.Mad


lurch  (D 27583)

Jan 21, 2013, 11:48 PM
Post #6 of 126 (14532 views)
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Impressive.
Aggressive downsizing,
Working his risers like an ape,
Can't fly straight or plan a predictable approach to save his life,
Pays no attention to obstacles such as other canopies or people on the ground, boxing himself into a corner where sooner or later he'll either be forced to turn into the ground or hit someone, cuts people off, flies erratically through the pattern,
Can't keep the damn thing from popping up and dumping him on his ass, does not understand the art of a decent flare yet,
Hasn't yet mastered standing up his landings,
And he's "learning to swoop". He's only trying to fly about 700 jumps beyond his skill level, what could possibly go wrong?

This ought to be good. Anybody want to bet on a femur inside of 2 years? Although judging by the way he sets down it'll be one or both wrists, first.
(gets the popcorn going)
-B


(This post was edited by lurch on Jan 21, 2013, 11:49 PM)


piisfish

Jan 22, 2013, 12:37 AM
Post #7 of 126 (14507 views)
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In reply to:
Can't keep the damn thing from popping up and dumping him on his ass, does not understand the art of a decent flare yet,
You are definitely jealous... Ever heard/seen Nick Batsch ? he does exactly the same. Pop up, dump on the ass, get distance world record Angelic That guy Andrei is the next supaswoopa Unimpressed


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jan 22, 2013, 4:29 AM
Post #8 of 126 (14444 views)
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Can't help but wonder what the leadership at the DZ is saying to this jumper. I would expect it to be something about traffic avoidance at the very least. I don't worry so much about him crashing himself... but murder is inexcusable.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 4:50 AM
Post #9 of 126 (14423 views)
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In reply to:
Its videos like this that make you hope that they they "just" break a leg when they learn their lesson. I hope they don't kill themselves or others.

If he flew like that while I was in the air, I'd break his fucking legs!


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 22, 2013, 5:04 AM
Post #10 of 126 (14406 views)
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This is the classic problem with people doing things completely wrong, but not getting hurt and therefore walking away under the impression they're doing it right.

I'm not talking about the big downsize, the poor canopy selection or the high WL for his jump numbers, just the way he flies. Not even the poor traffic management and lack of a pattern, just look at his hand movements when he flares, every one is a 'panic flare' way down to 3/4 brakes, then a pop-up and shit landing.

Again, because he's walking away, he thinks he's doing it right. One thing that the newbies don't seem to realize is that no amount of 'gear' is going to make you look like anything but a newbie. You'll see them buy smaller rigs, smaller canopies, fancier helmets and jumpsuits, and then strut around the DZ like a horny rooster. However, the moment they leave the plane, they're the same newbie they were the week before, this time just dressed up like a more experienced jumpers.

The point is that it shows. Your lack of experience and skill shows through no matter what you jump. When you push too hard and jump the wrong stuff, you end up looking worse, not better. Before you were the new guy, and performed like the new guy, nothing wrong with that. Now you look like the new guy who's in way over his head.

Anyway, the guys name in the comments, and it seems like he's from the Seattle area, maybe Shelton. Hey Shelton jumpers, watch you backs under canopy.


merkin86  (A License)

Jan 22, 2013, 8:17 AM
Post #11 of 126 (14250 views)
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Epic!! How has no one kicked this guys ass for slicing through the pattern like that?!?
Just think in 50 more jumps he'll be ready for that cool Velo!!


Austintxflight

Jan 22, 2013, 9:57 AM
Post #12 of 126 (14149 views)
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My favorite part of this, is that the comments section is filled with people telling him how bad of an idea it is, why he is making a mistake, there is no one there saying, good job keep it up.

Yet he still thinks its a great idea. Not to mention the camera, which I know zhills doesn't allow before 200 jumps, same as sebastian. And I just want to see him in free fall.

Ask and you shall receive, here he is in free fallhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h9I9O-1EUU

He was actually better in freefall than i expected, but his landing scared the shit out of me.


(This post was edited by Austintxflight on Jan 22, 2013, 9:59 AM)


Abedy  (D 10153)

Jan 22, 2013, 10:43 AM
Post #13 of 126 (14087 views)
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OMG! FrownCrazyMad
What disturbs me most is the way he ...well, it's not really a pattern and that he obviously doesn't pay much attention to other jumpers (who obviously fly a clear pattern) Or the way he crosses the runway at only about 100 feet. Sigh.


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 22, 2013, 12:42 PM
Post #14 of 126 (13963 views)
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In reply to:
...
I'm not talking about the big downsize, the poor canopy selection or the high WL for his jump numbers, just the way he flies. Not even the poor traffic management and lack of a pattern, just look at his hand movements when he flares, every one is a 'panic flare' way down to 3/4 brakes, then a pop-up and shit landing.

Again, because he's walking away, he thinks he's doing it right....

Yeah - it's the first thing I noticed too. Can't flare worth a damn. I'd guess he is afraid of the ground when he is coming in on a sub-conscious level.

Depending on where he learned I can overlook the wingloading somewhat. It's not _that_ out of line for a starting jumper. Though, the small canopy plus slightly more aggressive wingloading doesn't make this easier that's for sure.

Not to mention camera @ 100ish jumps... sigh. Let's just do it all at once.


(This post was edited by Fast on Jan 22, 2013, 12:43 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 1:20 PM
Post #15 of 126 (13920 views)
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$5 on the July 5th sqare.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 22, 2013, 2:10 PM
Post #16 of 126 (13861 views)
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Your on.... I'll take the 4th of July for 20 Alex....


yoink

Jan 22, 2013, 2:21 PM
Post #17 of 126 (13839 views)
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5 on April 20th for me please.


(This post was edited by yoink on Jan 22, 2013, 2:21 PM)


Shredex

Jan 22, 2013, 2:26 PM
Post #18 of 126 (13829 views)
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You can get away with a lot of stuff when you are a foreign skydiver.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 22, 2013, 3:02 PM
Post #19 of 126 (13793 views)
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Why?


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 22, 2013, 3:31 PM
Post #20 of 126 (13755 views)
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In reply to:
Why?

Honestly I was a bit taken back at a couple of those DZ's not grounding him. Guess I'll never be an S&TA/DZO with my mentality.


Shredex

Jan 22, 2013, 3:33 PM
Post #21 of 126 (13753 views)
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Because no one at the DZ knows who the heck you are...No one really knows your jump numbers.

Sure, manifest might know your jump numbers...but manifest is in manifest and they can't keep an eye on everyone at the DZ because they are busy manifesting.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 22, 2013, 7:47 PM
Post #22 of 126 (13647 views)
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I really don't give a shit about his jump numbers. One jump and landing like those in the videos should have been enough for someone to say something. He flys no pattern and just goes where ever the fuck he feels like. He's a canopy collision waiting to happen. If I knew who he was I would never get on a load with him.

My first time in Eloy, there was an older guy that flew a total shit pattern. He cut off a bunch of people on the way down and was just clueless. While this jumper was picking his gear up to walk back and pack, the S&TA (Brian I believe?) was already walking out to have a talk with him. I would be surprised if nobody has said anything to this kid.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 22, 2013, 10:03 PM
Post #23 of 126 (13579 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Why?

Honestly I was a bit taken back at a couple of those DZ's not grounding him. Guess I'll never be an S&TA/DZO with my mentality.

I wasn't. Those two are famous for talk and short action.
I see the same shot every time I go there.

Still, nobody has put a name to him?


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 22, 2013, 10:08 PM
Post #24 of 126 (13571 views)
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his channel says this: Andrei Marenich

Could be his name.... I believe everyone here has him a nic name though...Wink


grantunderland  (D License)

Jan 22, 2013, 11:40 PM
Post #25 of 126 (13526 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't tell for sure, but it looks like I was one of the guys he cut off at ZHills (we have a lot of orange Pulses). I remember a guy cutting me off and talking to him, he "didn't see it the same way I did". He said the same thing when he cut off an organizer and was talked to by staff then. Didn't really see him after that.

My memory sucks, that's really about all I recall


kenthediver  (A License)

Jan 23, 2013, 12:13 AM
Post #26 of 126 (4031 views)
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He comments in the YouTube link that he is hoping to get Brian Germaine to come to Seattle for a Canopy Flying course. Surely someone here knows the DZO at Seattle and can forward the link, with a suggestion that they have a strong chat to this bloke!


unkulunkulu  (C License)

Jan 23, 2013, 4:46 AM
Post #27 of 126 (3948 views)
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Well, I'm a bit new to this, so I really can't wrap my head around all this. In driving, you get your license suspended for crossing the double line (maybe even worse, I'm not a driver) and you get arrested for exceeding the speed limit, not simply that license thing, you can go to jail. Why on earth should a DZ tolerate this behaviour? Plain business, this? Unsure

Well, before I only read about those guys, now I saw this and it's really scary, slicing all that traffic like that Unsure What made him think he has right to do this?


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 23, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #28 of 126 (3852 views)
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Video is now "Private."

Go figure. Unimpressed


piisfish

Jan 23, 2013, 7:15 AM
Post #29 of 126 (3845 views)
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did anyone save it ?


NeonLights  (D License)

Jan 23, 2013, 7:19 AM
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Re: [unkulunkulu] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

@unkulunkulu
In america, thats some pretty harsh punishment for traffic violations!


(This post was edited by NeonLights on Jan 23, 2013, 7:19 AM)


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 23, 2013, 7:59 AM
Post #31 of 126 (3804 views)
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his others


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 23, 2013, 8:10 AM
Post #32 of 126 (3793 views)
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Yeah, always download these kind of videos if one wants to see them again! And there are ways of finding them in one's hard drive cache too. (Eg, for Firefox, Nirsoft's free VideoCacheView works if one follows the instructions.)

Hey, look at that, "LTS" (Learning to Swoop) showed up at:

http://www.mediafire.com/?csi4hjxejxj0a3r

Funny how that happened.


grimmie  (D 18890)

Jan 23, 2013, 8:34 AM
Post #33 of 126 (3770 views)
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In reply to:
Because no one at the DZ knows who the heck you are...No one really knows your jump numbers.

Sure, manifest might know your jump numbers...but manifest is in manifest and they can't keep an eye on everyone at the DZ because they are busy manifesting.

Manifest should be in charge of keeping the aircraft going smoothly. Someone else should be monitoring the LZ.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 23, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #34 of 126 (3754 views)
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Now I wonder how long until it makes it back to YouTube?!
DGIT!


andymarch  (C 40813)

Jan 23, 2013, 12:24 PM
Post #35 of 126 (3614 views)
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Hey there! Wow, popcorn and everything!

First, the video is suspended for soundtrack copyright reasons (didnt expect that, did you!), working on that not sure I want to make it public again with all the vultures wishing me isolated, killed or ever worse... expelled (C). It should still be a good idea to have it online as a lesson to me and everyone else stepping on the same path.
Yes, Ill get coaching the very first thing jumping resumes [in Spring].

No, I dont believe I had a good judgment or doing the right things. As much as I tried to over float others and stay away from everybody in the pattern some jumps were SAFE (stupid and fucking extreme), and you really dont need much for accident to happen. Analogy with cars doesnt really work since high jumpers that swoop are landing to the same gravel circle with everybody else in pattern, but I believe you when you say that they not really are, and I need more experience to understand that. Whoever is mad at me here, Im sorry.

Yes, DZs and local friends did see this video and had a talk with me about the same. Since they know me, they were much less bloodthirsty, I have several people who offered to watch my landings and coach me.

No more 270s, definitely no more 180s! Back to the basics. Work on flare, slow turns, pattern and accuracy. Im really grateful to everyone for useful insights.

[ducks and covers]


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 23, 2013, 12:52 PM
Post #36 of 126 (3590 views)
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Wow. I have to say that you have guts to show up here. The "vultures" can be pretty harsh.

But you have to realize there are valid reasons for that level of anger. Search "Bob Holler" and "Danny Page" to find out what has happened doing what you did in the pattern.

Search "Sangi" to find out what has happened to someone just like you. On a 129 Safire, no less.

And the video didn't show "suspended" when I looked this morning, it was "private." There's a difference.

But I'm glad to hear that you were willing to listen to your friends and are going to stop the stupidity.

Really, I am. Nobody wants to see you get hurt. It's just that there have been a lot of "youse" (if that's a word) that have come and gone. Some learned before they got hurt, some learned after they got hurt (with varying levels of permanent injury and disablity) and some had about 3 seconds of life left to realize how serious their error was.


yoink

Jan 23, 2013, 1:49 PM
Post #37 of 126 (3523 views)
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Kudos on showing up.

When people are playing bounce bingo it's generally a last resort to get you to understand that your behavior will get you (or worse, someone else) killed. Not if. Not maybe. WILL. That video showed some of the worst piloting I've seen in a long time.


There's a progression to learning to swoop that you seem to have missed fundamental theory on.
FIRST, you get your pattern sorted.
THEN, you increase your speed.
THEN, you increase your rotation.

All of this happens over hundreds, if not thousands of jumps.

You've obviously got a taste for the speed and flying, and that's great! But the problem is that people who have gone down your route before are usually impatient to get back there, to the point that they believe they're exceptional - even if they take some canopy coaching it's usually a case of working on stuff for a few dozen jumps and then going back to believing they're hot shit and bringing back the poor decisions and crappy skills.

Sorry guy. There's no shortcut.


Scrumpot  (D License)

Jan 23, 2013, 2:47 PM
Post #38 of 126 (3469 views)
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We all just don't understand and fully appreciate his MAD SKILLZ!! You all are just "haters". Bet he rides motorcycles and participates in all sorts of other high-speed sports too, and all THAT, just by its very virtue, hello - - - puts him way ahead of just the otherwise blahze mundane, "average" curve.

Youz-all just gotta stop hatin', and start recognizing.
Really. Crazy


andymarch  (C 40813)

Jan 23, 2013, 6:18 PM
Post #39 of 126 (3334 views)
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Never said that :)

BTW, looking at all the videos out there, is this safe enough?
http://youtu.be/B_dFonEFN2w


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 23, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #40 of 126 (3315 views)
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Quote:
BTW, looking at all the videos out there, is this safe enough?
http://youtu.be/B_dFonEFN2w

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest about that video, but I hope you understand it's a far stretch from what you posted.

I see some fairly consistant flying, where the pilot appears to be in control during all phases of the landing.

I cannot say the same for the video you posted. It was scary and wrong in many different ways. Unless you've been living under a rock, there's no way you thought that what you were doing was a 'good' idea, or anyting close to what is normally considered 'accpetable' or 'prudent'.

Truth is, based on the type of flying you were trying to do, it shows that you have indeed not been linving under a rock. You're clearly not some uninformed newbie from an old-shcool, backwwods DZ where they just don't know any better, you're tuned in to 'modern' skydiving, and you willfully chose to embrace the parts that you thought were 'cool', and ignore anything you thought was going to get in your way, such as common sense or any sort of reasonable progression or adavanced training.

'I hope I can get enough interest to get a class together and bring Brian Germain to Seattle'. Sure, but you clearly had the time and money buy a fast canopy and to take yourself to several Florida DZs for a good deal of fun jumping. None of that time or money went toward any sort of coaching or canopy control class. Put the cart before the horse much?

Some might applaud you for coming forward after your video went 'viral'. I maintain that you're the same douche who made the video, and the constant and repeated bad decisions that went into making it.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 23, 2013, 8:30 PM
Post #41 of 126 (3225 views)
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In reply to:
Really, I am. Nobody wants to see you get hurt.

I don't know about that.

None of the people I know who made a visit to the orthopedic surgeon are dead or disabled and only one made a return visit.

Lesee.. one, two, three, four, five died from bad judgement without a surgical intervention before then.

I prefer when jumpers who listen and learn from other peoples' mistakes, but when they don't I hope for enough of an injury to be a learning experience with no permanent damage because things are likely to be much worse later in their career at a higher wing loading.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jan 23, 2013, 8:34 PM)


swoopfly  (E License)

Jan 23, 2013, 8:33 PM
Post #42 of 126 (3223 views)
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I like how he thinks he was doing 270's, it was more like three 90's


andymarch  (C 40813)

Jan 23, 2013, 10:28 PM
Post #43 of 126 (3173 views)
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Don't jump into conclusions on so many assumptions.

I wasn't comparing this video to mine, I was asking exactly what I did. I seemed fairly safe practice and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.
And it's not even the issue with canopy course. Be it the weather, timing, demand or some other factors, since I got interested, there wasn't a single course offered (also in Florida when we were there) that I could attend! And nothing scheduled either. But there were 4 (four) water trainings already during the same time.
So it's either chasing people around, asking for some hints, going somewhere for the course (expensive, vacation-wise too) or getting enough interest to bring someone in.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 24, 2013, 4:11 AM
Post #44 of 126 (3080 views)
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Quote:
So it's either chasing people around, asking for some hints, going somewhere for the course (expensive, vacation-wise too) or getting enough interest to bring someone in.

Whatever you excuse is, you didn't get any sort of training or coaching, and at 100 jumps you made an aggressive down size (skipping right over the 135/139/150 size canopies) and started high performance landings, practically from the first jump on the wing (as shown in your video). Then you took that wing to new-to-you, busy DZs, and proceeded to fly recklessly through traffic over, and over, and over again.

I'm not sure how calling you out on that is 'jumping to conclusions'. You knew exactly what you were doing, and you thought you were hot shit because of it. Meanwhile, you can see you whizzing past canopy after canopy in the pattern all throughout your video.


trigger  (D 101390)

Jan 24, 2013, 5:21 AM
Post #45 of 126 (3027 views)
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Andy, hard fact but i don't really care if someone gets hurt or even killed by their own reckless illinformed actions.
However ,i do care about the damage those actions can do to the reputation of a given DZ ,i care about that and was amazed no-one showed you the red card.
Also you endangered others and thats simply not acceptable.

I sincerely hope you rein it in and go back to basics and work on pattern and accuracy and slow flight.

Good luck with arranging a CC course, failing that find a hard bastard, no shit mentor, someone you can respect whose not afraid of hurting your feelings..at least thats what i did 11 years ago when courses in my neck of the woods were, well non existent.


SEREJumper  (D 29555)

Jan 24, 2013, 5:26 AM
Post #46 of 126 (3017 views)
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Quote:
Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.

WTF dude...speechless.

Best reason to downsize right there...said no one.


theonlyski  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 5:32 AM
Post #47 of 126 (3012 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.

Worst reason for downsizing that I've ever seen.


In reply to:
Be it the weather, timing, demand or some other factors, since I got interested, there wasn't a single course offered (also in Florida when we were there) that I could attend! And nothing scheduled either.

I highly doubt that there was nobody willing to sit down with you and help you out at any of those dropzones, especially if they saw how you were flying.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 24, 2013, 7:12 AM
Post #48 of 126 (2946 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm willing to bet he was talked to and he with all those mad skillz decided he knows better and blew it all off, clearly he has no clue! Not only would I ground his ass, if cut me off like that he might get an ass kicking in the landing area for trying to kill me or my students, or my friends. NO EXCUSES for that kind of stupid flying.

Andy, you need to pull that head out that ass and get educated and fast..... I'll still take July 4th 2013 for 20 Alex.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Jan 24, 2013, 7:15 AM
Post #49 of 126 (2942 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Really, I am. Nobody wants to see you get hurt.

I don't know about that.

None of the people I know who made a visit to the orthopedic surgeon are dead or disabled and only one made a return visit.

Lesee.. one, two, three, four, five died from bad judgement without a surgical intervention before then.

I prefer when jumpers who listen and learn from other peoples' mistakes, but when they don't I hope for enough of an injury to be a learning experience with no permanent damage because things are likely to be much worse later in their career at a higher wing loading.

Good point. Although I personally know one who has yet to learn, despite 2 serious incidents.

Billvon has said something to the effect of: "I hope you femur. Not because I want to see you get hurt, but because it's a serious enough injury to wake you up and one that usually heals without permanent disablity."

I'd still rather Mr "MadSkilz" learned the easier way.
But that is up to him.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 8:25 AM
Post #50 of 126 (2882 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

So it's either chasing people around, asking for some hints, going somewhere for the course (expensive, vacation-wise too) or getting enough interest to bring someone in.

In reply to:

Here's a hint~

Either learn how to fly a fucking pattern before you kill someone - or get out of the sport.

You shouldn't NEED a specialized canopy course in order to understand & perform the basic traffic pattern you should have learned in you initial training.

Your apology is worthless lip-service & no excuse is valid...you either have no idea what you're doing or you don't care about the lives of people in the air with you.

Either is unacceptable, Flush out your head-gear N00b...fix this!

Do some serious thinking here, you are putting others lives in jeopardy.


andymarch  (C 40813)

Jan 24, 2013, 8:26 AM
Post #51 of 126 (4223 views)
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Re: [SEREJumper] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.

Best reason to downsize right there...said no one.

Speaking of jumping to conclusions... sigh... Exactly, Where did I say that?? I only made a point that you don't need to have money lying around to downsize.


mx19  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #52 of 126 (4204 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.

Best reason to downsize right there...said no one.

Speaking of jumping to conclusions... sigh... Exactly, Where did I say that?? I only made a point that you don't need to have money lying around to downsize.

But you do need, experience, skill, knowledge, training, and awareness among other things, all of which you seem to be lacking.


(This post was edited by mx19 on Jan 24, 2013, 8:59 AM)


elightle  (D 5966)

Jan 24, 2013, 9:14 AM
Post #53 of 126 (4187 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Pattern, Pattern, Pattern... Period!


jclalor  (B 33202)

Jan 24, 2013, 11:22 AM
Post #54 of 126 (4101 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In reply to:
So it's either chasing people around, asking for some hints, going somewhere for the course (expensive, vacation-wise too) or getting enough interest to bring someone in.

In reply to:

Here's a hint~

Either learn how to fly a fucking pattern before you kill someone - or get out of the sport.

You shouldn't NEED a specialized canopy course in order to understand & perform the basic traffic pattern you should have learned in you initial training.

Your apology is worthless lip-service & no excuse is valid...you either have no idea what you're doing or you don't care about the lives of people in the air with you.

Either is unacceptable, Flush out your head-gear N00b...fix this!

Do some serious thinking here, you are putting others lives in jeopardy.

I could not give a flying fuck if this guy pounds in, I just don't want him pounding in with me wrapped around him.

People like this are the only serious reason I ever ponder leaving the sport. People always ask me if I'M afraid that my parachute won't work, I have to explain the real danger is selfish fucking idiots that don't look where there flying.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 1:49 PM
Post #55 of 126 (4029 views)
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Re: [jclalor] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In reply to:
So it's either chasing people around, asking for some hints, going somewhere for the course (expensive, vacation-wise too) or getting enough interest to bring someone in.

In reply to:

Here's a hint~

Either learn how to fly a fucking pattern before you kill someone - or get out of the sport.

You shouldn't NEED a specialized canopy course in order to understand & perform the basic traffic pattern you should have learned in you initial training.

Your apology is worthless lip-service & no excuse is valid...you either have no idea what you're doing or you don't care about the lives of people in the air with you.

Either is unacceptable, Flush out your head-gear N00b...fix this!

Do some serious thinking here, you are putting others lives in jeopardy.

I could not give a flying fuck if this guy pounds in, I just don't want him pounding in with me wrapped around him.

People like this are the only serious reason I ever ponder leaving the sport. People always ask me if I'M afraid that my parachute won't work, I have to explain the real danger is selfish fucking idiots that don't look where there flying.

Exactly, in fact I have several friends who stepped away from the sport after decades in because of people who clearly have no concept of what's going on or at stake, recklessly endangering everyone around them.

This 'I'm sorry, I mean well' 'It's not my fault' & 'a canopy course will fix everything'....bullshit doesn't wash in the real world away from Disneyland
& video games...

These 'proudest moment videos' show an extreme level of ineptitude combined with what seems to be a total lack of awareness & understanding that 'two seconds and some luck' are all that stand between 'just another jump and a fatality'

This sport has plenty of inherit risk that we all access & factor into our decision participate, throw in a loose cannon unpredictable wild card and it's anyone's guess as to how drastically the odds have changed.

It's idiotic that everyone's chances of injury or death skyrocket simply because of some asshole that's either to dumb or to lazy to take personal responsibility for the basic skills taught on day one.

~ cutting through traffic blindly, not yielding to lower canopies, changing line of flight at 50 feet with traffic around...
...and he wants to make it clear that it doesn't 'cost' a lot to downsize.

Kid, you have no fuckin' IDEA what your downsizing COULD cost.
MadCrazy


NeonLights  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 2:17 PM
Post #56 of 126 (4002 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Whats up with the rules on patterns at this/these DZ/DZ's? To be honest, some of the clips are really not bad... but others, im pretty surprised no one noticed and talked to him.


fanya  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 2:58 PM
Post #57 of 126 (3965 views)
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re: Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Well then, that was an interesting video.

It's like sanji all over again.

I'll take august 17


andymarch  (C 40813)

Jan 24, 2013, 3:44 PM
Post #58 of 126 (3930 views)
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In reply to:
Whats up with the rules on patterns at this/these DZ/DZ's? To be honest, some of the clips are really not bad... but others, im pretty surprised no one noticed and talked to him.

I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:
DLand - bad spotting, strong winds, some landing off-field, no pattern, they were picking up people all over airport. The only time (4th) when we opened high and were close, I made a 90 turn, being in the pattern, all good. Usually, you can make both left and right traffic to final, just need to stay on your own side of the center line.

Z-Hills - in the pattern, in the pattern, really stupidly caught myself going against the traffic (147), when they asked to give more time and space separation. So on consecutive jumps I landed on the side of the field while outfloating everyone.

Sebastian - they have in the corner next to the bridge for high performance landings, where people were landing pretty much vertically over the concrete/hangars, and the pattern further away.
Very valid point here, that I was trying stuff beyond my skill level, control and consistency, but again, outfloating everyone in the swooping area and being far from people in the pattern or the first one down (don't mind yellow Katana-89, he was specifically watching me) there was no concerns from other's point of view (I've asked).
Then already at home (166), another valid point, was asked to land off-field rather than diagonally, even when there is nobody else in the pattern.

Again, foreseeing some angry replies, I'm not saying I knew what I was doing or that it was safe, only that others didn't think I was cutting their paths or being a concern to their landings.


ReluctantStool  (A 65507)

Jan 24, 2013, 6:40 PM
Post #59 of 126 (3831 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Please be mindful of traffic. You nearly beheaded a few people. Just sayin....get that close to me on landing, im gonna have to closeline you!!!! LaughLaughLaugh We all wanna go home at the end of the day. Slow down a bit.


Fearjoburg  (A 7079)

Jan 25, 2013, 3:53 AM
Post #60 of 126 (3721 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:

Plus everybody else on this forum is "having a talk with you". When someone with thousands of jumps more than me talks to me I tend to listen.

But it appears to me that you are "above" everybody else and the people who got a shitload of jumping experience than you.

So I suppose that it doesn't help preaching to you as your mind is already made up.

Don't forget to post a video on Youtube as well WHEN you pound in and if you survive it.


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:45 AM
Post #61 of 126 (3701 views)
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Re: [Fearjoburg] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Don't forget to post a video on Youtube as well WHEN you pound in and if you survive it.

Well that's a helpful comment now isn't it? Congratulations on being a douchebag!

Anyways, what I saw in the video from a purely beginner swooping aspect wasn't completely horrible. He was generally coming out high, with obvious mistakes. If it wasn't in traffic and the turns were 90's I don't think there's anything wrong aside from the fact that he could benefit from some coaching to increase his chances of making it through this agressive learning path.

Here's awhat I did see that I disagree with in the video:
-TRAFFIC - What the F*CK? Dude..that needs to stop! Nothing more needs to be said, just don't swoop in traffic.

-Left riser, right riser, left riser, cutting off the other traffic along the way. Again, not much to say here other than that is completely not swooping. If you want to swoop, do it properly, even while learning.

-Target fixation...It's pretty clear that you should probably do some landings focusing more on the landing than the swooping. Most of your landings veered towards a target that you were clearly fixed on. Yeah I know, you were "aiming" for them and were spot on, right? Wrong...don't aim for objects in your path. Once you get good and start working on gates, you'll know better by then and it's done differently.

-Degree of turns. Dude...90's are more than you'll ever need for the next 500 jumps. I'm 500 jumps in and still only do 90's, but I've learnt to better control the canopy and the actual swoop as a result. By no means am I an ace, but I'm taking it slow to learn as much as I can on 90's and I still have plenty to learn.

-TRAFFIC - This needed to be mentioned again! How do you think you'd feel if you crashed into a friend, they died and you got to live? I'll tell you...you'll feel the worst you've ever felt in your life because it would have been preventable.

I started out much like you, but I had a bit more common sense to avoid traffic and I wasn't learning while on vacation at boogies with hoards of other canopies around. "Floating" above everyone else will help, but what about that small girl who is unintentionally "floating" under her 288, and you don't see her. Guess what...you just killed someone, and maybe yourself too.

Get some coaching, even from one of the swoopers at your local DZ if you don't want to take a full course. Just get someone to give you some guidance, but most importantly, STAY AWAY from other canopies. Go to a cessna DZ where you can easily count the other canopies.

Good luck dude...keep at it, but use what's available to you!


(This post was edited by Chris-Ottawa on Jan 25, 2013, 4:48 AM)


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:56 AM
Post #62 of 126 (3689 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well that's a helpful comment now isn't it? Congratulations on being a douchebag!

Not really, sometimes people have their head so far up their own ass, nothing but a good swift kick in the nuts will get through to them.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 25, 2013, 4:57 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 25, 2013, 6:04 AM
Post #63 of 126 (3645 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Anyways, what I saw in the video from a purely beginner swooping aspect wasn't completely horrible. He was generally coming out high,

I don't think we were watching the same video. What I saw was a guy taking too deep, and panic flare/stabbing out of every lading, to the point of popping up on most landings.


trigger  (D 101390)

Jan 25, 2013, 8:23 AM
Post #64 of 126 (3573 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
only that others didn't think I was cutting their paths or being a concern to their landings.
Quote:

Andy its very likely the other jumpers on the load didn't see you.
You'll be surprised at how many people, like yourself get fixated on their landing at the expense of being oblivious to what's happening around them.
Be aware of the fact that unintentionally everyone's trying to kill you.


andymarch  (C 40813)

Jan 25, 2013, 12:49 PM
Post #65 of 126 (3439 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Fearjoburg: But it appears to me that you are "above" everybody else and the people who got a shitload of jumping experience than you.

On the complete opposite. I'm really surprised to see the same comments and points made, me AGREEING to them, getting the plan figured out, yet people claiming over and over I know better and ignore everyone.

Quote:
Here's what I did see that I disagree with in the video:
-TRAFFIC - What the F*CK? Dude..that needs to stop! Nothing more needs to be said, just don't swoop in traffic.
Yes, AGREED, maximum separation, coaching, PATTERN, accuracy and flare - from the 90s.
Quote:
-Target fixation...don't aim for objects in your path...Once you get good and start working on gates, you'll know better by then and it's done differently.
I guess I'll get there once I work enough on the above.

Quote:
-Degree of turns. Dude...90's are more than you'll ever need for the next 500 jumps.
Being ignorant as I am, let's say at least 100 jumps, then maybe another 100, then as the progress goes :)

Quote:
Get some coaching, even from one of the swoopers at your local DZ if you don't want to take a full course...STAY AWAY from other canopies...
Good luck dude...keep at it, but use what's available to you!
As I said many times before, coaching - first chance I get, locals - already have few people that offered help, can't wait! Will read Brian's book, work on traffic and altitude
awareness and accuracy, 90s and flare (tried rears a few times, they don't seem to level out the flare, landed on my but, definitely need some coaching here).
Thank you for all the advice and especially for the attitude, man!


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 25, 2013, 1:35 PM
Post #66 of 126 (3399 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

You could learn a lot about your pattern from a FJC. You don't need a specific canopy coach for that.


aulanov

Jan 25, 2013, 2:11 PM
Post #67 of 126 (3378 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:

Andrey, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that many of us, people you've been jumping with, have been telling you all along that many things you've been doing were dangerous, irresponsible and stupid.
You've never been taking it very seriously though. I only regret I've never been assertive enough to make you realize that.


(This post was edited by aulanov on Jan 25, 2013, 2:12 PM)


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 25, 2013, 2:20 PM
Post #68 of 126 (3367 views)
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Re: [aulanov] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:

Andrey, you seem to be oblivious to the fact that many of us, people you've been jumping with, have been telling you all along that many things you've been doing were dangerous, irresponsible and stupid.
You've never been taking it very seriously though. I only regret I've never been assertive enough to make you realize that.

Sigh...


fanya  (D License)

Jan 25, 2013, 8:08 PM
Post #69 of 126 (3257 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Since no one else has linked it, here's some reading material with posts that are eerily similar to yours. Look for the posts specifically made by Sangi and what everyone else was saying to him and about him.

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

And the aftermath

http://www.dropzone.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Hope it all works out for you.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 26, 2013, 4:45 AM
Post #70 of 126 (3154 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Andy

Since your jumping in the PNW where there are exended periods of periods with lots of white clouds, The next time you change canopies get a different color than white Tongue

At least some people will be able to see you under canopyShocked.

Plus what everyone else said.Smile

Have a happy
R.

R.


DBCOOPER  (D 24112)

Jan 27, 2013, 6:22 AM
Post #71 of 126 (2883 views)
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Re: [Fearjoburg] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:



Don't forget to post a video on Youtube as well WHEN you pound in and if you survive it.

Until you do, could you post up at what boogies and drop zones you'll jumping?


Croc  (D 29552)

Jan 27, 2013, 6:39 AM
Post #72 of 126 (2871 views)
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Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

If you can't learn to fly a pattern at least you can learn to stop arguing with people who have twenty times more jumps then you. It makes you sound like an asshole with mad skilz.

Oh, duh.


normiss  (D 28356)

Jan 27, 2013, 7:01 AM
Post #73 of 126 (2859 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

^This.

I don't want to be in the air if someone is flying their canopy like this.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 27, 2013, 8:18 PM
Post #74 of 126 (2647 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:



Don't forget to post a video on Youtube as well WHEN you pound in and if you survive it.

Until you do, could you post up at what boogies and drop zones you'll jumping?

I hope you are replying to andymarch and not really to Fearjoburg


Krip  (Student)

Jan 27, 2013, 9:26 PM
Post #75 of 126 (2618 views)
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Re: [DBCOOPER] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Until you do, could you post up at what boogies and drop zones you'll jumping?

Hi DB

Don't worry be happy.Smile

The rocket jocky posted his name and at least one of his home DZ's in his profile. As long as your not jumping in the seattle metroplex he's their problem. Their not blind, just busySly

If you go to the Boogie at LP or the west coast check the manifest ot registration for the name in his profile or screen name no one has to jump with him unless he's your bossSly


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 4, 2013, 5:51 PM
Post #76 of 126 (4930 views)
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Re: [Krip] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

Sanji's reply to DGIT.

He still doesn't get it.

Put me down for $20, 6-8 months.Unsure

ETA: Cleaned up my horrible effort at a linkie.
Read Sanji's comments under the video.
Wink


(This post was edited by normiss on Feb 4, 2013, 8:15 PM)


hcsvader  (E 2952)

Feb 4, 2013, 6:58 PM
Post #77 of 126 (4881 views)
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Hey normiss, you links aren't working correctly, just links to the OP video.


EnricoPalazzo

Feb 5, 2013, 2:27 AM
Post #78 of 126 (4794 views)
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Yes, it's the OP video, with Sangi's comment and the OP's reply to it.


MagmaticZebra

Feb 5, 2013, 6:33 PM
Post #79 of 126 (4652 views)
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This entire thing is just yet another person in the skydive community that probably wasn't talked to harshly enough, and wrote off anything else because people were trying to be nice about it.
I think I mentioned to Andrey a couple times that I thought the 129 was a bit of a leap in terms of canopy size, but like others, I didn't really go much further than saying it might not be the best idea and tried to be friendly about it. This was probably the same message and kindness he got from others, and mostly wrote it off as just a suggestion... He probably thought everything wasn't so bad until he posted the video and people could comment without any emotion. More peope need to bash people at the drop zones as they do online. I wish I could. Skydive community would probably be a safer place.


-ftp-

Feb 26, 2013, 10:35 AM
Post #80 of 126 (4339 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Its videos like this that make you hope that they they "just" break a leg when they learn their lesson. I hope they don't kill themselves or others.

If he flew like that while I was in the air, I'd break his fucking legs!

You have no right to be saying anything...what were you flying at sub 300's again??? Please remind us....


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Feb 26, 2013, 1:20 PM
Post #81 of 126 (4302 views)
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Re: [-ftp-] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

>You have no right to be saying anything...what were you flying at sub 300's again?

He was different.


hookitt  (D License)

Feb 27, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #82 of 126 (4107 views)
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In reply to:
>You have no right to be saying anything...what were you flying at sub 300's again?

He was different.

That caused an audible laughing sound to be emitted from one of the holes in my head region.


wolfriverjoe  (A 50013)

Feb 28, 2013, 2:27 PM
Post #83 of 126 (3976 views)
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In reply to:
>You have no right to be saying anything...what were you flying at sub 300's again?

He was different.

In DocPop's defense, he was getting coaching and he was doing solo hop&pops.

While what he was doing was pretty foolish, the only one he was putting in danger was himself.


DocPop  (C License)

Mar 3, 2013, 12:23 PM
Post #84 of 126 (3758 views)
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In reply to:
>You have no right to be saying anything...what were you flying at sub 300's again?

He was different.

I was different to this dude. While many on here disagreed with WHAT I was flying, NOBODY ever had to speak to me about HOW I was flying.

There is a world of difference.

And as to my right to say something.... pfft, never mind.


cavscout73  (C 40414)

Mar 11, 2013, 5:44 PM
Post #85 of 126 (3395 views)
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Re: [theonlyski] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.

Worst reason for downsizing that I've ever seen.


In reply to:
Be it the weather, timing, demand or some other factors, since I got interested, there wasn't a single course offered (also in Florida when we were there) that I could attend! And nothing scheduled either.

I highly doubt that there was nobody willing to sit down with you and help you out at any of those dropzones, especially if they saw how you were flying.

Not quite a canopy course but I would be willing to bet, there are a handful of damn good canopy pilots that could be picked up as coaches for some one on one.. especially in Deland or Sebastian.. for that matter bet ya could have walked into flight 1 and gotten that accomplished or at least pointed in the right direction..


andymarch  (C 40813)

May 14, 2013, 7:27 PM
Post #86 of 126 (2928 views)
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Ok, forty more jumps and two canopy classes since the video, read through the comments, got Brian's book have a lot to try and work on.

I still believe my canopy is safe and slow enough, even for my skill level, I would even like something with lighter front riser pressure. And as nave as it sounds, I think that just a thousand landings on 190sq.ft. canopy brings you as closer to swooping as thousand commute miles to being a car racer. So I want to set the right priorities and progression, pushing forward while staying safe to myself and others.

As subjective as opinions are, I appreciate all the [constructive :] feedback, and would like to thank everyone who responded, commented or otherwise criticized my video!

The courses: first one concentrated on controls (toggles, rears and fronts) and details of the flair. Second was about pattern, wind correction, ground track and being predictable. Both very helpful! In the future, plan to get all the coaching I have a chance to. Not too many landing videos, and no outside ones somehow cameras used by coaches don't talk very well with modern laptops, - hopefully will fix that this summer.

Working primarily on pattern and consistency, reserving to either straight-ins or 90-degree turns. I've updated a video with a few most recent landings (skip to 6:40) and removed the double speed.

http://youtu.be/7wYvgALKnq4


normiss  (D 28356)

May 14, 2013, 8:11 PM
Post #87 of 126 (2908 views)
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'Snore has a right hand pattern?
Shocked



Oh wait...you were the only right hand pattern jumper.
Unsure


-Joey-  (B License)

May 14, 2013, 9:25 PM
Post #88 of 126 (2867 views)
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Haha, you were in Shelton the same day I was I think.

Btw check your PM :)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 15, 2013, 3:37 AM
Post #89 of 126 (2817 views)
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Honest question, and I'll preface it by saying that I think you're making some better choices with regards to the canopy control courses you've taken, is 202 your accurate jump numbers as of today?


Trafficdiver  (D License)

May 15, 2013, 5:16 AM
Post #90 of 126 (2789 views)
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andymarch wrote:
. And as nave as it sounds, I think that just a thousand landings on 190sq.ft. canopy brings you as closer to swooping as thousand commute miles to being racer

After seeing your "judgement" in the first video you posted I'd say you are the type of person who should do at least 1000 commuter miles before getting in a race car.


3mpire  (C 39657)

May 15, 2013, 9:09 AM
Post #91 of 126 (2686 views)
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Quote:
And as nave as it sounds, I think that just a thousand landings on 190sq.ft. canopy brings you as closer to swooping as thousand commute miles to being a car racer.

A more direct analogy, I think, would be to compare canopy progression with Naval aviators progressing from flight school to an F-18 landing on a ship at sea.

Check out the progression new navy pilots have to follow:

  • 14 hours civilian flight training (plus a solo flight and cross country in GA aircraft)

  • Primary Flight Training in T34C or T6 Texan (both prop planes)

  • Intermediate to advanced training they finally get in a T45 and do an additional 65+ graded flights


  • Only after all of that time behind the stick of progressively staged classes of aircraft do they get to fly the real deal.

    Notice they didn't go from a 182 in civilian GA to an F18?

    I'm glad you're doing all the extra training and I'm not flaming you, but your logic doesn't make much sense to me.


    (This post was edited by 3mpire on May 15, 2013, 9:11 AM)


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    May 15, 2013, 10:29 AM
    Post #92 of 126 (2638 views)
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    davelepka wrote:
    Honest question, and I'll preface it by saying that I think you're making some better choices with regards to the canopy control courses you've taken, is 202 your accurate jump numbers as of today?

    About 210 now, yes. Jumps 201 and 202 were Wingsuit FJC (with Douglas Spotted Eagle) that I just could not not do!

    3mpire wrote:
    A more direct analogy, I think, would be to compare canopy progression with Naval aviators progressing from flight school to an F-18 landing on a ship at sea.

    Check out the progression new navy pilots have to follow<...>

    Only after all of that time behind the stick of progressively staged classes of aircraft do they get to fly the real deal.

    That's exactly what I have in mind! Military pilots are deliberately training towards deck landings on F18s, as opposed to just flying mail for thousands of hours, not that it won't at all help. Let's say I want to have a nice consistent 270 and fly 100ish Crossfire2 or Katana by 700-1000 jumps. I know this is realistic since I have quite a few examples. So what should be the next jump about for this goal? I don't think "just having 1000 jumps on 190" is quite the right approach. I need to make a progression, plan drills and details to work on, adjusting as I go. Something like:

  • Do at least 100 jumps to have a consistent 90-degree landing, with good accuracy with any wind, traffic and conditions.

  • Doing above, do regular high-pull jumps to spin 180s, 270s measuring altitude loss, do rears drills, stalls, whatever

  • Increase landing turn to 180/270/ do some next step (whoever went through this should watch my landings and suggest the right steps)

  • Downsize to X, going back to fronts, 90s and accuracy

  • etc
    Not to mention for example, that without the right sequence, drills and video reviews I might learn bad habits that could be worse than not making those jumps at all.


    3mpire  (C 39657)

    May 15, 2013, 11:32 AM
    Post #93 of 126 (2599 views)
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    I am totally on board with the idea of a plan and executing to that plan. I think the only distinction I'd make is that while carrier landings are deliberate training, that is deliberate training with the thousands of hours of boring flight already under the belt. So while jumping a larger canopy won't give you the same practice, it still has value.

    So to stick with the naval aviation analogy, the flight training is first in prop planes. That's your 190 sq. foot canopy.

    Initial tailhook landing training is in a T45. That's your 150 sq. foot canopy. You have to do a minimum of 65+ flights in that T45 before the Navy decides if you're even allowed into something like an F18. The F18 is a sub 130sq. foot elliptical.

    So yes, F18 pilots practice their carrier landings (actually you know you can watch them do that at OLF Coupeville on Whidbey island). But only after they have demonstrated proficiency on less performant platforms.

    Lots of people learn to swoop on a 150 sabre2. I bet a really good canopy pilot on a sabre2 150 could out-swoop a bad canopy pilot on a smaller canopy.

    T6 : F18 :: Triathlon 160 : Safire 129

    It's skipping the middle bit that is tripping most people up, and is contributing to the backlash Angelic


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    May 15, 2013, 11:54 AM
    Post #94 of 126 (2574 views)
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    Well, I agree that I could have more graduate downsize, but since I already have 100 jumps on my Safire129 and feel pretty comfortable with it, this is what I start with, so to say.

    And my point, continuing with Naval analogy, is that, imagine you have a GA pilot with 200 hours that you need to train on F18 deck landing, and you are paying for all the rentals, fuel etc. You want to be safe, since injuries or expensive equipment damage set you back and are very bad in general. But at the same time you don't want to say, here's 182, just fly for 1000 hours and come back :) So my question to others is: how would you approach this training?


    3mpire  (C 39657)

    May 15, 2013, 11:56 AM
    Post #95 of 126 (2570 views)
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    I'd do exactly what you are talking about -- set up a progression plan with measurable goals and hold myself accountable for meeting those goals before moving to the next step. On a 150 Sabre 2 Wink

    With the naval analogy, you wouldn't take a 182 pilot and say fly for 1000 hours and then get into an F18. You'd say, "try this T6, then try this T45, and then try the F18".

    edited to add: that is actually what I am doing -- I spend time under canopy working on stuff like flat turns, flare turns, front riser dives where I note altitude, execute maneuver, check altitude and see if I did it within my expected altitude range, etc.

    I'm on my Sabre2 170, and I have no problem with it. I'll move to a 150 sometime but I don't feel that it is necessary to meet my immediate goals. Plus, I like having a 170 over my head when I get to jump my wingsuit (have you considered the ramifications of jumping your canopy as a beginning wingsuit pilot? how do you like line twists in a straight jacket? Wink)

    It's all about risk, and I have a lower threshold since I have a 1 year old son at home and a wife that depends on me.

    Your body your risk, so if you are ok with your loading it's your business--unless you put others (me) at risk, in which case, that's where the friction with your fellow jumpers starts. A lot of people rag on your quick progression more out of their concern for how it could affect others.


    (This post was edited by 3mpire on May 15, 2013, 12:06 PM)


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    May 15, 2013, 2:52 PM
    Post #96 of 126 (2463 views)
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    Ok, I think I hear what you are saying and vice versa.
    Yup, I've got a good line twist in a wing suit, one reason why I used David's 150 for FJC.

    Since I know you, we can discuss plans and progression further next time we meet :)


    78RATS  (D 25449)

    May 16, 2013, 12:34 PM
    Post #97 of 126 (2252 views)
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    Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    You really should stop bellyflying if you want to be cool.


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    May 16, 2013, 2:31 PM
    Post #98 of 126 (2206 views)
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    78RATS wrote:
    You really should stop bellyflying if you want to be cool.

    Right! And dump skis for snowboard. Oh, and get an iPhone Laugh


    Krip  (Student)

    Jun 8, 2013, 7:22 AM
    Post #99 of 126 (1832 views)
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    Re: [SEREJumper] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    Hi SERE

    In response to the recent posts from Joey and his attitude.Pirate

    It reminded me of this thread. Including the links you posted on u tube.

    Enjoy


    mike_brown  (B 38674)

    Jun 14, 2013, 7:32 PM
    Post #100 of 126 (1644 views)
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    Re: [DocPop] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    DocPop wrote:
    In reply to:
    Its videos like this that make you hope that they they "just" break a leg when they learn their lesson. I hope they don't kill themselves or others.

    If he flew like that while I was in the air, I'd break his fucking legs!

    So this is why my instructors always preached for me to practice my flat turns.... Still do practice them. Gotta avoid stuff like this at the last few hundred feet apparently. Mad


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    Nov 2, 2013, 4:06 PM
    Post #101 of 126 (3425 views)
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    Wanted to start a new post in swooping forum, but it's more technical and specific questions there, while this is not really swooping and still matter of general safety and training.

    First of all, I'd like to thank all of you again for feedback, any feedback, very, very helpful indeed. This is probably the most important advice I carried from this: showing your progress to experienced people, the more the better corrects you attitude, goals and most importantly delusions; and is not only critical for everyone's safety, but greatly improves the learning curve. So I plan to keep you all posted.

    Main advice to experienced jumpers: if someone makes bad decisions, don't assume he knows he does!
    Main advice to newbies, if in doubt - downsize ask! If you are sure you're right - definitely ask :) If you are too aggressive and cutting some corners, it definitely helps to be fully aware of associated risks.

    So, 198 jumps on Safire2-129, 315 total. Traffic and pattern awareness becomes natural. I really like how accuracy gets more and more easy, teammate that lands first and can film your fly-by is a good incentive for that ;) Nailing those 90s, becoming more staged and controlled: brakes, fronts, offset, harness, level-off..
    Really wanted something with lighter front riser pressure and not such short recovery arc so got myself Katana-120 as a next canopy (loaded at ~1.48), winter is hop'n'pop time anyway. Since the plan is get back to straight-ins and high pulls, openings concern me even more than landings. We'll see.
    Here's the updated video (new stuff from 5th minute):
    http://youtu.be/kAsZNm8-4Co
    Again, any thoughts welcome!


    (This post was edited by andymarch on Nov 2, 2013, 4:07 PM)


    piisfish

    Nov 3, 2013, 9:23 AM
    Post #102 of 126 (3272 views)
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    315 jumps, Katana 120 loaded at 1.5, seems you unfortunately didn't get the message correctly. Crazy
    Good luck


    FB1609  (C 1409)

    Nov 3, 2013, 9:45 AM
    Post #103 of 126 (3261 views)
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    I enjoyed the vid, you seem to be progressing with optimism. At your rate I can see you base wingsuit prox jumping pretty soon and posting cool vids. Nice job on the base landings by the way.

    Careful though, maybe making that vid pushes you to progress a bit faster than a non documented progression would. It only takes one mistake...and seriously, you have very little experience, a fact shown by your jump numbers.


    format  (B 15348)

    Nov 3, 2013, 10:29 AM
    Post #104 of 126 (3234 views)
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    Re: [piisfish] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    I wouldn't be surprised if he outlive most of "you're gonna die" posters.
    And it's not about the age thing.


    Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

    Nov 3, 2013, 12:53 PM
    Post #105 of 126 (3164 views)
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    format wrote:
    I wouldn't be surprised if he outlive most of "you're gonna die" posters.
    And it's not about the age thing.

    Maybe so. Just hope he (and all the other Mad Skillz crowd) doesn't take out one of us grumpy old farts in the process.


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    Nov 3, 2013, 1:50 PM
    Post #106 of 126 (3147 views)
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    Re: [NWFlyer] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    NWFlyer wrote:
    Maybe so. Just hope he (and all the other Mad Skillz crowd) doesn't take out one of us grumpy old farts in the process.

    Hi Kris Smile
    Yes, that's why canopy courses, these conversations and peer coaching is so important. For one guy that posts his "kool swooping" video on DZ forum, there is ten if not hundred more all over the country that acquire skillz on their own Crazy


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    Nov 3, 2013, 4:23 PM
    Post #107 of 126 (3083 views)
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    FB1609 wrote:
    I enjoyed the vid, you seem to be progressing with optimism. At your rate I can see you base wingsuit prox jumping pretty soon and posting cool vids. Nice job on the base landings by the way.

    Careful though, maybe making that vid pushes you to progress a bit faster than a non documented progression would. It only takes one mistake...and seriously, you have very little experience, a fact shown by your jump numbers.

    Thanks!
    Wing suit proxy flying is one of my dreams, I do realize lack of experience, so for now just working on pieces and getting mileage. Another 300-400 jumps on Katana, eventually moving to 270s. I have 30 wing suit jumps and a docking camp on P2. Plan to get more experience, then move to Havok that's on the way. Also in the plans go to Perrine bridge for a few days. Definitely, 4-way Nationals next year too...
    To much fun awaits (besides skydiving too), not to be careful :)


    (This post was edited by andymarch on Nov 3, 2013, 10:10 PM)


    format  (B 15348)

    Nov 4, 2013, 10:29 AM
    Post #108 of 126 (2946 views)
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    NWFlyer wrote:
    Just hope he doesn't take out one of us grumpy old farts in the process.
    I'm no fart.. a burp maybe Smile


    -ftp-

    Nov 5, 2013, 1:01 PM
    Post #109 of 126 (2787 views)
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    Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    whats your goal of posting this on here? And please don't feed a BS line of "to learn."


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    Nov 5, 2013, 5:20 PM
    Post #110 of 126 (2693 views)
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    Re: [-ftp-] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    -ftp- wrote:
    whats your goal of posting this on here? And please don't feed a BS line of "to learn."

    Why do people ever make and post skydiving videos on youtube? Showing-off, of course! I do love my videos and am proud of my progress.
    Here's a few tunnel videos, because we're so awesome :)
    Blocks training: http://youtu.be/6KFH0wNIFsk
    Before Nationals: http://youtu.be/2IyZIjoOYZ4

    Besides, you know the saying: if it's not on GoPro - it's a PLF :)

    On a serious note, I wasn't the one who posted here originally, but the response did help a lot. So the main reason is to get feedback and sync my goals with people with knowledge who've been where I am now. Not so much on this forum, but several local friends and people I've personally met while jumping, watched my landings and gave more specific drills, points and hints (even a simple 'landing # - start leveling earlier, but slower next time') that improved my flying a lot!
    Not sure, what could be the other goals, really.


    freekflyguy  (D 11658)

    Nov 12, 2013, 2:59 PM
    Post #111 of 126 (2416 views)
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    Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    Sad as it may seem I watched the video.

    One question, did you really hook up and pack your reserve and main without hanging either canopy to do a line sequence check?


    normiss  (D 28356)

    Nov 12, 2013, 3:33 PM
    Post #112 of 126 (2395 views)
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    Re: [freekflyguy] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    People with mad skillz advance faster than normal.
    Please do try to keep up with his progression and stop trying to hold people back.
    You clearly do not understand.
    Tongue


    grue  (D License)

    Nov 12, 2013, 9:16 PM
    Post #113 of 126 (2317 views)
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    normiss wrote:
    People with mad skillz advance faster than normal.
    Please do try to keep up with his progression and stop trying to hold people back.
    You clearly do not understand.
    Tongue

    I can't decide if this thread makes me feel good or bad about my canopy progression Laugh


    hookitt  (D License)

    Nov 12, 2013, 9:41 PM
    Post #114 of 126 (2306 views)
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    freekflyguy wrote:

    One question, did you really hook up and pack your reserve and main without hanging either canopy to do a line sequence check?

    I watched the video when it was first posted so don't recall seeing that part. Doing a line continuity check doesn't require being hung. It might be easier but it's not required to do a thorough, and proper job of it.


    freekflyguy  (D 11658)

    Nov 13, 2013, 1:35 PM
    Post #115 of 126 (2160 views)
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    hookitt wrote:
    freekflyguy wrote:

    One question, did you really hook up and pack your reserve and main without hanging either canopy to do a line sequence check?

    I watched the video when it was first posted so don't recall seeing that part. Doing a line continuity check doesn't require being hung. It might be easier but it's not required to do a thorough, and proper job of it.

    It makes it a damn site easier, what about carrying out a full inspection of the reserve? I would say hanging the canopy is the only way to ensure you have carried out a full and thorough inspection.


    JanuszPS  (D 568)

    Nov 13, 2013, 1:36 PM
    Post #116 of 126 (2159 views)
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    it seams that it was a BASE rig


    freekflyguy  (D 11658)

    Nov 13, 2013, 1:42 PM
    Post #117 of 126 (2145 views)
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    JanuszPS wrote:
    it seams that it was a BASE rig

    Oh no it wasn't
    Attachments: Packing a res.jpg (217 KB)


    hookitt  (D License)

    Nov 13, 2013, 2:12 PM
    Post #118 of 126 (2116 views)
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    freekflyguy wrote:
    hookitt wrote:
    freekflyguy wrote:

    One question, did you really hook up and pack your reserve and main without hanging either canopy to do a line sequence check?

    I watched the video when it was first posted so don't recall seeing that part. Doing a line continuity check doesn't require being hung. It might be easier but it's not required to do a thorough, and proper job of it.

    It makes it a damn site easier, what about carrying out a full inspection of the reserve? I would say hanging the canopy is the only way to ensure you have carried out a full and thorough inspection.


    Well then, I guess you'd have to watch me do one without hanging it and decide if it was satisfactory.

    By the way, I did not watch his video at all because I thought you were referring to a different video.


    airtwardo  (D License)

    Nov 13, 2013, 7:03 PM
    Post #119 of 126 (2035 views)
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    Re: [freekflyguy] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    Quote:
    I would say hanging the canopy is the only way to ensure you have carried out a full and thorough inspection.

    Well, careful laying out and line checking each group has always worked for me - - that or jumping it....Laugh


    (This post was edited by airtwardo on Nov 13, 2013, 7:12 PM)


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    Nov 14, 2013, 4:16 PM
    Post #120 of 126 (1917 views)
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    freekflyguy wrote:
    One question, did you really hook up and pack your reserve and main without hanging either canopy to do a line sequence check?

    It's a friend of mine, who re-packs the reserve and hooks up main. He is a rigger, and packs reserves all the time, has quite a few saves too, so I have no reasons not to think he's a good one. Always does very thorough inspection and has detailed systematic approach, which is kind of hard to see by the process that took 2 hours and then crammed into 1 min time lapse :)


    gearless_chris  (D 29012)

    Nov 15, 2013, 6:03 AM
    Post #121 of 126 (1772 views)
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    Re: [SEREJumper] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    I thought this was a different video too. I love all the faceplants, and random landing directions, and S-turns on final, and landing the wrong direction in the wrong place on a night jump.


    thomas.n.thomas  (A 65931)

    Nov 18, 2013, 8:23 PM
    Post #122 of 126 (1537 views)
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    Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    andymarch wrote:
    Well, I agree that I could have more graduate downsize, but since I already have 100 jumps on my Safire129 and feel pretty comfortable with it, this is what I start with, so to say.

    And my point, continuing with Naval analogy, is that, imagine you have a GA pilot with 200 hours that you need to train on F18 deck landing, and you are paying for all the rentals, fuel etc. You want to be safe, since injuries or expensive equipment damage set you back and are very bad in general. But at the same time you don't want to say, here's 182, just fly for 1000 hours and come back :) So my question to others is: how would you approach this training?

    Andy, forgive me, but I have to join the dogpile. For full disclosure, I am a new jumper - 3 years and 50 or so jumps. I am by no means someone who knows much about jumping.

    Now consider, when you are cruising through the landing pattern, there is someone like me out there on a 210 trying his best to safely float down and just hit the LZ without any bumps. How do you think it affects my ability to do what I want if you come crossing through the pattern, fly in, near, or around me going much faster and a higher descent rate? It scares the crap out of me, and I don't know you from Adam. I don't know how much control you have, whether you see me, and then I go into panic mode because there is a canopy near me. Maybe you plan on me continuing straight and slow, but I make a quick avoidance maneuver, and now that space you had picked out is closing down because I just turned into where you are going. Remember, I'm new and stupid, and maybe my decision is the wrong one to compound the problem, or maybe it's the right one as far as I know it because I have no idea where you are really going to end up. At the very least, my pattern is now screwed up and I'm forced to try and correct, which makes my landing that much more difficult. At worst, well...I think we all know...

    So, hopefully things have changed since the initial posts. Just consider that you can't have the mindset that things are going to go according to plan with those other canopies around. Remember there are guys like me out there just trying to get by, doing our best to be safe and predictable, and trying to get better despite our ineptitude, weakness, fear, etc. Give us a break and sit your place in line in the pattern or go hop and pop if you want free reign of the LZ.

    Now, as for the F/A-18 analogy. I'm no flight instructor, but I'm pretty dang sure that the guy in charge would go follow NATOPS, and he is not going to short cycle some guy and dump the manual all because, "this guy is really good, and he doesn't need those pre-reqs." The pilot either has the required training or he doesn't. If I'm going to put him in charge of a $50M aircraft, I am not going to worry too much about a few $100K extra for training. Might be that he learns something. Fact is, much like in Naval Aviation, the rules and best practices in the skydiving community have been developed over many years by many people with much experience. To ignore the benefit of these rules and best practices is foolish. Choosing your own way over conventional wisdom may work sometimes for some people, but not all the time for all the people, and not even all the time for some of the people. Success-based planning kills.


    gearless_chris  (D 29012)

    Nov 19, 2013, 5:38 AM
    Post #123 of 126 (1478 views)
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    Re: [thomas.n.thomas] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    You could also make a panic turn to avoid this guy... right into the person beside you.


    airtwardo  (D License)

    Nov 19, 2013, 8:15 AM
    Post #124 of 126 (1451 views)
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    Re: [thomas.n.thomas] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    Quote:
    Remember, I'm new and stupid...

    You may be new ~ but you're not stupid!

    Keep the mindset you have posted above and you will go a very long way in the sport. Cool


    andymarch  (C 40813)

    Nov 19, 2013, 1:13 PM
    Post #125 of 126 (1354 views)
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    Re: [gearless_chris] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    gearless_chris wrote:
    ...and landing the wrong direction in the wrong place on a night jump.

    Landed short, but never wrong direction at night.

    thomas.n.thomas wrote:
    So, hopefully things have changed since the initial posts. Just consider that you can't have the mindset that things are going to go according to plan with those other canopies around.
    <...>
    Now, as for the F/A-18 analogy. I'm no flight instructor, but I'm pretty dang sure that the guy in charge would go follow NATOPS, and he is not going to short cycle some guy and dump the manual all because, "this guy is really good, and he doesn't need those pre-reqs."

    Yes, hopefully things have changed, jump numbers is where we get into various situations, conditions and get experience. However F/A-18 analogy is for slightly different point: to put someone in charge of it, yes, certain training is required, but not the hours alone. I've seen examples when some has 1000 jumps on 190 that I wouldn't suggest to downsize, as well as people with 400 jumps that fly sub-100 and don't make me worry. I would never say, make 1000 jumps on 150, then you are ready for 135, without seeing, how are the patterns, flat turns, 90s.. well Brian's check-list for example; what the person is working on and what are the limiting factors if any.
    So, "PATTERN, awareness and canopy classes" is a good feedback, "make 400 jumps on a bigger canopy" - not too progression or goal specific.


    gearless_chris  (D 29012)

    Nov 20, 2013, 7:31 PM
    Post #126 of 126 (544 views)
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    Re: [andymarch] Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga [In reply to] Can't Post

    Sorry, looked like you landed 90 degrees to the cars and ran it out between them.



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