Forums: Skydiving: General Skydiving Discussions:
hawaii skydiving collision

 


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Jan 20, 2013, 9:16 AM
Post #1 of 30 (5456 views)
Shortcut
hawaii skydiving collision Can't Post

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/20632978/skydivers-injured-on-the-north-shore

im looking for some info on this accident for a friend. he seems pretty concerned for the lady and believes it may be a good friend of his. if you would like to keep it private, please PM me any info you can.


FlyingRhenquest  (B 37920)

Jan 20, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #2 of 30 (5384 views)
Shortcut
Re: [flipwithit] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you check the incidents forum?


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 20, 2013, 9:30 AM
Post #3 of 30 (5368 views)
Shortcut
Re: [flipwithit] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Sound like two separate incidents on the same day (although first might be just a minor tree landing)

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/...d-on-the-north-shore

[made clicky]


ebusto  (C 38493)

Jan 21, 2013, 9:48 PM
Post #4 of 30 (4751 views)
Shortcut
Re: [flipwithit] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Both ladies from both incidents are fine.


flipwithit  (D 31574)

Jan 21, 2013, 9:56 PM
Post #5 of 30 (4737 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ebusto] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah I finally heard from them on FB...some serious bruising on a few people though!


Cutaway68  (D 29478)

Jan 23, 2013, 5:40 AM
Post #6 of 30 (4446 views)
Shortcut
Re: [flipwithit] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Why is this NOT in the incidents forum?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 23, 2013, 12:39 PM
Post #7 of 30 (4230 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Cutaway68] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is this NOT in the incidents forum?

Because a great number of incidents are not/no longer reported. Between liability, bad pub, inaccurate news stories and interpretations, and flaming, what is the upside to reporting it? Unsure

http://www.staradvertiser.com/..._on_North_Shore.html


Quagmirian  (A 110392)

Jan 23, 2013, 8:38 PM
Post #8 of 30 (4106 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Pretending bad things in the sport don't happen isn't going to make them go away.


Cutaway68  (D 29478)

Jan 24, 2013, 5:33 AM
Post #9 of 30 (4019 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Why is this NOT in the incidents forum?

Because a great number of incidents are not/no longer reported. Between liability, bad pub, inaccurate news stories and interpretations, and flaming, what is the upside to reporting it? Unsure

http://www.staradvertiser.com/..._on_North_Shore.html

So, the Greenies don't have the ability to move this thread?Crazy


Rick  (D 28557)

Jan 24, 2013, 5:37 AM
Post #10 of 30 (4012 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Quagmirian] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pretending bad things in the sport don't happen isn't going to make them go away.


Not posting on DZ dot com is not pretending it never happened Crazy


(This post was edited by Rick on Jan 24, 2013, 5:38 AM)


ctrph8  (D License)

Jan 24, 2013, 9:30 PM
Post #11 of 30 (3829 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Quagmirian] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

DSE is exactly right. I watched most of the first incident and a bit of the second incident. It was a rough day. I wouldn't dream of reporting it here for all of the reasons he mentioned.

The main reason I wouldn't personally report this is because although I was right there, I don't have all of the information. Many many times, someone reports an incident but is fuzzy on the details or reports what they thought happened, not what actually happened.

I'd also add, while there are certainly things that can be learned from any incident, reporting it here pretty much just turns it into the usual flotsam an jetsam spouting off crap that is either irrelevant or just plain wrong. There are some insightful things that come up but for the most part it is just noise. I don't see much benefit but I do see a lot of reasons to be very careful about what is presented here.




In reply to:
Pretending bad things in the sport don't happen isn't going to make them go away.


excaza  (C License)

Jan 26, 2013, 10:12 AM
Post #12 of 30 (3662 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Rick] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not posting on DZ dot com is not pretending it never happened Crazy
That wasn't what he said...


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 26, 2013, 1:23 PM
Post #13 of 30 (3591 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ctrph8] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Jan 26, 2013, 2:36 PM
Post #14 of 30 (3532 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...

Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation. That's not how you give back to the sport.

A canopy collision occurred; only the two people directly involved can accurately comment on what happened. From the ground it was hard to watch, but turned out (thankfully) better than everyone observing had anticipated.

Lessons from the ground are similar to other collisions.

~clear your airspace before initiating any turn
~low man has the right of way
~Communicate if you are wrapped up/entangled with someone else before cutting away.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 26, 2013, 2:46 PM
Post #15 of 30 (3523 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

"Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation."

Having to face consequences for being negligent? What a concept...


AndyBoyd  (D 16728)

Jan 26, 2013, 3:42 PM
Post #16 of 30 (3486 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation."

Having to face consequences for being negligent? What a concept...

Do you really want skydivers to start suing other skydivers? Or do you want to make it easier for anyone to sue DZ operators? Reporting incidents on a public forum like this is not smart. Especially because most of the stuff that gets reported here is inaccurate and ends up with blame being tossed around by lots of uninformed people.


ctrph8  (D License)

Jan 27, 2013, 12:24 AM
Post #17 of 30 (3356 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't give back to the sport by reporting speculation. I have some pretty strong opinions as to what happened with both incidents, but they are just that, opinions. I don't actually know what happened, only what I saw and heard around the DZ. In this case, that's not enough. If I were to report just that, it would be doing the people who were involved and the people who were reading it a disservice.

It is my opinion that the only people who should be reporting an incident are the people who were directly involved with it or someone (S&TA or someone who is officially sorting this out) who has really investigated the incident. Take a look at the incidents section. Most of that is just noise with a few really good reports in there as well.

I saw an excellent example of how to report something not too long ago. A question came up that Ian Drennan had some information about. He chimed in, told everybody that there was an investigation going on and that he didn't want to comment or encourage speculation until it was complete. Later when he had all of the pieces of the puzzle he came back and discussed what the investigation turned up. I thought that was so classy and well done.





In reply to:
Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 27, 2013, 2:17 AM
Post #18 of 30 (3337 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not reporting an incident is potentially allowing others to suffer the same fate. That's not how you give back to the sport.

Just saying...

Reporting an incident that may have legal repercussions for one or more parties is potentially causing someone to suffer unduly because of misinformation. That's not how you give back to the sport.

It may be true, but it is a really shit problem to have. No wonder the USPA incident reporting system is dysfunctional, and people in the US are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes.

Granted the speculative nature of the posts we have here offer questionable benefit. Rarely does the discussion through much light on the subject, and 90% of the posts are simply repeating the same advice. I still learn from some incidents though...


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 27, 2013, 3:18 AM
Post #19 of 30 (3331 views)
Shortcut
Re: [DSE] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
what is the upside to reporting it? Unsure
Discussion and learning opportunities.
Even the 'speculation' that some whine about generates new topics for discussion and more learning opportunities.

Let's not get all involved with tunnel vision thinking every post in the thread should be strictly about the facts of the incident.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 27, 2013, 3:23 AM)


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 27, 2013, 8:40 AM
Post #20 of 30 (3281 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
what is the upside to reporting it? Unsure
Discussion and learning opportunities.
Even the 'speculation' that some whine about generates new topics for discussion and more learning opportunities.

Let's not get all involved with tunnel vision thinking every post in the thread should be strictly about the facts of the incident.

Pops come on. The vast majority of threads I've read in the incidents forum are garbage. Heavy on speculation, heavy on absolute statements, and hilariously dysfunctional blame gaming. If we could get to the place where there are incident reports like APF puts out, and then we discussed it a little further here that would be constructive and helpful. Largely what is going on today isn't.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:33 AM
Post #21 of 30 (3181 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AndyBoyd] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

"Do you really want skydivers to start suing other skydivers? Or do you want to make it easier for anyone to sue DZ operators?"

No. That's not my intent. I do want to be able to fly my pattern in peace, w/o getting taken out by some Sky God wannabe Crazy. The facts on this incident aren't in, yet. It sounds like someone strafed through the regular pattern, & took someone else out. Maybe that will come to light in this case. Maybe it will be disproven. Either way, similarly guilty parties will realize they may well face consequences if they recklessly endanger the rest of us. I don't think making the skies safer for All is a bad thing.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 27, 2013, 11:52 AM
Post #22 of 30 (3160 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GobbleGobble] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

"The vast majority of threads I've read in the incidents forum are garbage. Heavy on speculation, heavy on absolute statements, and hilariously dysfunctional blame gaming."

Dunno. I've certainly seen that behavior. I've also seen the Mods stop that garbage on more of the threads. Then, the facts have been hashed out. Some of what's been established on threads like that might be of little worth to jumpers w/more experience. I've derived a lot of benefit from reading the incident forums, though.

Perhaps we can start going over hypothetical incidents? Take incidents from years ago, & change all identifying aspects of it. Get the lessons out there that way. Does that sound better? Everyone running for cover for fear of litigation, does no one any good.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 27, 2013, 12:10 PM
Post #23 of 30 (3138 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ctrph8] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

"I saw an excellent example of how to report something not too long ago. A question came up that Ian Drennan had some information about. He chimed in, told everybody that there was an investigation going on and that he didn't want to comment or encourage speculation until it was complete. Later when he had all of the pieces of the puzzle he came back and discussed what the investigation turned up. I thought that was so classy and well done."

Sounds good. I haven't seen that happen often, though. More often, I think fear of litigation or ridicule keeps mouths shut, indefinitely. There's got to be a better way to get the knowledge out there from hard-won lessons.


ctrph8  (D License)

Jan 27, 2013, 3:28 PM
Post #24 of 30 (3028 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

No. That's not what happened at all, even a little bit.

That kind of speculation and crap slinging is exactly what I'm talking about. Think of that post as a shining example of what not to do.



In reply to:
It sounds like someone strafed through the regular pattern, & took someone else out. Maybe that will come to light in this case..........


(This post was edited by ctrph8 on Jan 27, 2013, 3:51 PM)


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 28, 2013, 3:22 PM
Post #25 of 30 (2861 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ctrph8] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Here:

"Maybe it will be disproven. Either way, similarly guilty parties will realize they may well face consequences if they recklessly endanger the rest of us. I don't think making the skies safer for All is a bad thing."

You had forgotten the rest of that quote. Don't hide behind the mud-slinging excuse. I specifically worded that to show it may or may not be the case in this incident.


ctrph8  (D License)

Jan 28, 2013, 6:58 PM
Post #26 of 30 (637 views)
Shortcut
Re: [PiLFy] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

That part was just less out of line than the rest of the post so I focused on the first part. Are you saying that your post is NOT speculation?

Or that there is a guilty party who deserves consequences?

Or that someone recklessly endangered someone?

Those are very serious accusations. Do you not see how inflammatory and irresponsible that is? It will probably not be proven or disproven here. The results of whatever investigation happens will most likely not be posted in large part because of the kinds of things you are insinuating. I'm not saying it would be because of you specifically. You just give the clearest example.



In reply to:
Here:

"Maybe it will be disproven. Either way, similarly guilty parties will realize they may well face consequences if they recklessly endanger the rest of us. I don't think making the skies safer for All is a bad thing."

You had forgotten the rest of that quote. Don't hide behind the mud-slinging excuse. I specifically worded that to show it may or may not be the case in this incident.


Krip  (Student)

Jan 28, 2013, 10:54 PM
Post #27 of 30 (598 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Quagmirian] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Pretending bad things in the sport don't happen isn't going to make them go away.

Thread drift: Not Hawaii

http://www.dropzone.com/...6;page=unread#unread

What does the industry do with a jumper that continues to put people at risk becauuse he wants to max out his fun factor at the risk of others? (Video's included)

Should he be SuedShocked if/when he hurts someone?

Should he be blacklisted?

"Skydivers don't sue skydivers" That was back in the day when one of the basic rules in jumping was cause no harm to others. That rule went out the window a long time ago.

I doubt this jumper who I nicknamed crazy Ivan will clean up his act. If he hurts himself to bad for him that was his decision he knows who to blame.

But what happens when crazt Ivan hurts someone else. In the air or on the ground by continueing to fail to fly the landing pattern, land to close to people on the ground etc etc. Check out the video's.

What would you do if he tried to get on your load or showed up at your DZ and repeated his immature selfish behavior.?

Don't get your panties in a bunch folks I'm not jumping anymore and I don't like lawyers. But how long is the industry and their customers going to continue to kick the can down the road ?.


PiLFy  (A License)

Jan 29, 2013, 3:18 PM
Post #28 of 30 (551 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ctrph8] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this not the same incident:

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

That accusation has already been made, then. I wouldn't want to sling mud where it didn't belong. That said. There is a palpable fear of being taken out by some Wild Child... If it is proven that someone flagrantly disregards the safety of others by say, strafing through the pattern under a ridiculously small wing? Then yes, there should be consequences. Attempt to kill me w/your car, & you're gonna have problems. Same rules would apply for virtually any other method you might employ. Why would you feel this would be OK?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 6:28 PM
Post #29 of 30 (517 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
what is the upside to reporting it? Unsure
Discussion and learning opportunities.
Even the 'speculation' that some whine about generates new topics for discussion and more learning opportunities.

Let's not get all involved with tunnel vision thinking every post in the thread should be strictly about the facts of the incident.

I couldn't agree more!

I kinda look at it the other way around...

I take it for granted that the report isn't rock solid accurate in most cases.

It's not a professional investigator or journalist posting, it's a skydiver with a perspective.

What he saw, heard, remembers etc. isn't an NFL 'booth review', it's gonna be flawed.

Add to that a degree of difficulty some have expressing themselves, differences in terms or vocabulary - and misinterpretations are to be expected.

That's okay...what the incident report DOES is let everyone know 'something went bad someplace'
~ A wake up call that just may reduce some complacency, if you don't know bad stuff is happening you may develop a false sense of security.

In most cases you at the very least get a gist of what happened, 'the type of incident'
~ Enables us to recognize trends that may otherwise go unnoticed & thus not dealt with in a timely manner.

Usually get an idea of the gear used and the environmental conditions present, the specific independent variables.
~ Gives us food for thought regarding finding ourselves in similar situations.

I like the speculation & the varied input discussing possibilities...it's enlightening, educational and often entertaining.

It encourages thought about situations you may not have heard of or expected and ideas about how to deal with them.

Many times I've come to realize the idea I had in my head on how to react to a certain scenario is outdated, been improved upon, unrealistic or just plain wrong.

Several times I've spent the better part of an evening following up on an idea I saw in the thread...checking several sources and working to clarify my understanding.

No matter where you are as far as skill & experience in this sport, you STILL don't even know what all you don't know.

As my fellow old farts can attest, back when we jumped rocks for gear & the interweb wasn't even a dream - communication was slow & much MORE inaccurate...gotta wonder how many lives may have been saved or injuries avoided had we been able to discuss incidents at length as we do here.


ctrph8  (D License)

Jan 29, 2013, 8:42 PM
Post #30 of 30 (496 views)
Shortcut
Re: [airtwardo] hawaii skydiving collision [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see what you are saying. I have a vision of what "reporting" should look like and the reality of the way the forums work is sometimes different. I still think I'll only report what I actually know but I can see your point.

I do remember when the beer line wireless network was pretty much it as far as reporting went.



In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
what is the upside to reporting it? Unsure
Discussion and learning opportunities.
Even the 'speculation' that some whine about generates new topics for discussion and more learning opportunities.

Let's not get all involved with tunnel vision thinking every post in the thread should be strictly about the facts of the incident.

I couldn't agree more!

I kinda look at it the other way around...

I take it for granted that the report isn't rock solid accurate in most cases.

It's not a professional investigator or journalist posting, it's a skydiver with a perspective.

What he saw, heard, remembers etc. isn't an NFL 'booth review', it's gonna be flawed.

Add to that a degree of difficulty some have expressing themselves, differences in terms or vocabulary - and misinterpretations are to be expected.

That's okay...what the incident report DOES is let everyone know 'something went bad someplace'
~ A wake up call that just may reduce some complacency, if you don't know bad stuff is happening you may develop a false sense of security.

In most cases you at the very least get a gist of what happened, 'the type of incident'
~ Enables us to recognize trends that may otherwise go unnoticed & thus not dealt with in a timely manner.

Usually get an idea of the gear used and the environmental conditions present, the specific independent variables.
~ Gives us food for thought regarding finding ourselves in similar situations.

I like the speculation & the varied input discussing possibilities...it's enlightening, educational and often entertaining.

It encourages thought about situations you may not have heard of or expected and ideas about how to deal with them.

Many times I've come to realize the idea I had in my head on how to react to a certain scenario is outdated, been improved upon, unrealistic or just plain wrong.

Several times I've spent the better part of an evening following up on an idea I saw in the thread...checking several sources and working to clarify my understanding.

No matter where you are as far as skill & experience in this sport, you STILL don't even know what all you don't know.

As my fellow old farts can attest, back when we jumped rocks for gear & the interweb wasn't even a dream - communication was slow & much MORE inaccurate...gotta wonder how many lives may have been saved or injuries avoided had we been able to discuss incidents at length as we do here.



Forums : Skydiving : General Skydiving Discussions

 


Search for (options)