Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
low jump numbers, camera and low exits

 


cavscout73  (C 40414)

Jan 12, 2013, 6:52 PM
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low jump numbers, camera and low exits Can't Post

I was recently at a dz, where i saw a jumper with approx 100 jumps B licenced jumping a sony cx camera helmet, and exiting the plane at 2200 ft. Also being allowed to jump go pro and 1.3 /1:4-:1 wing loading right off student status.

Im only about 250 jumps into the sport and have broken a few rules along the way, as i assume most have. But the longer im around and the more i learn " sometimes by my own mistakes" when is it enough to be addressed or to do something to stop it? And how do you stop it without causing dz problems


skydiverbry  (D License)

Jan 12, 2013, 7:19 PM
Post #2 of 74 (7178 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Not quite sure how I'd approach the problem.

One, I would not jump nowhere near said jumper and may bring it up to the ST&A if they are not already aware.

To me IMHO this is an accident ready to happen and hopefully does not take out another jumperUnsureUnsure






Bry


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jan 13, 2013, 2:32 AM
Post #3 of 74 (7043 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

At 1.4 with 100 jumps he'll potentially qualify as a junior member of SoFPiDaRF. I'd point him over there and let them sort him out. Just make sure you video all his landings for, er, research purposes.


skycatcher68

Jan 13, 2013, 4:37 AM
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was recently at a dz, where i saw a jumper with approx 100 jumps B licenced jumping a sony cx camera helmet, and exiting the plane at 2200 ft. Also being allowed to jump go pro and 1.3 /1:4-:1 wing loading right off student status.

Is this one jumper or four different situations?

1) B License/100 jumps with a CX Camera.

2) Exiting at 2,200.

3) Jumping with a Go-Pro (after cleared to solo?)

4) Jumping at 1.3-1.4 after cleared to solo.

1 & 3 aren't necessarily critical issues.

2 & 4 have to do with the DZO/Instructors.


Shredex

Jan 13, 2013, 5:22 AM
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Re: low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

The camera isn't really a problem. There are DZ's that allow GoPros at 50 jumps with B license. USPA just makes recommendations. But at a smaller DZ, everyone knows each other and everyone knows what you are capable of, so they often bend the rules for some people if they know they can handle it.

Low exit and high wing loading, is a problem.
Speak to him personally, maybe tell him stories you've heard of all the broken people in wheelchairs. If that doesn't work, then speak to a staff member and express your concern for this persons safety.


Mr_Polite  (D 420)

Jan 13, 2013, 5:37 AM
Post #6 of 74 (6971 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:04 AM
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Re: [Mr_Polite] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.

So true. You can't legislate rules at someone else's dz. At your experience level, your job is to keep yourself alive. If you're confident that you're staying safe, just stay out of the way of unsafe folks and keep your eyes open for the "lessons" you can learn by watching.

Kevin K.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:08 AM
Post #8 of 74 (6934 views)
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Re: [Mr_Polite] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.

Ah, the old "close the eyes and it'll go away" approach. Well done.

I'm sure you can point him in the direction of someone who does have the right to do so.

To the O.P: Don't be afraid to speak up. Quite a few people are dead because nobody did so. Safety isssues often won't win you a popularity contest,

Plenty of people will respect you for doing so though, even if they don't say so.

The ignorant always make the most noise.


cavscout73  (C 40414)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:59 AM
Post #9 of 74 (6893 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Same jumper.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 13, 2013, 7:27 AM
Post #10 of 74 (6871 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

First answer, you don't have the experience and knowledge to make the call.
Second answer, you don't have any authority to do anything. I've been an instructor for 20 years and a C-E and an I-E for over 10 years and I don't have any authority to deal with something like this. Even if I was an S&TA, that authority is only good at my home DZ.
Third answer, you can talk to someone about it, but if this is permitted at this DZ, you'll just get people pissed at YOU.
Lastly, look in before looking out. You're jumping a Crossfie 2 with a little over 200 jumps, averaging about 40 jumps a year. The type of canopy is as important as wingloading, maybe more. Right now you are at the most dangerous time in you jump life. A lot of supposed knowledge, but not enough experience to use it properly. Focus on keeping yourself safe and alive and if you don't like how this DZ does things, don't go there.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:11 AM
Post #11 of 74 (6845 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps. The DZO and my instructor each recommended it.

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice just like you are whining now.

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

Basically what someone else jumps is between him/herself, the FAA and the DZO.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:32 AM
Post #12 of 74 (6825 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

You've made this argument before, and I'll repeat why it's bullshit.

As quoted above, you have turned out to be an accomplished skydiver. Not only do you have the skills and judgement to continue jumping for many years and thousands of jumps, you have also proven yourself to be above average with the records you hold and the medals you have won.

In retrospect, I don't think anyone would be surprised to hear that you, or any other long-time, highly experienced, greatly accomplished skydiver was able to handle a higher performance canopy far sooner than the average.

However, when dealing with new jumpers today, we're not looking in retrospect, quite the opposite in fact. You would have to look forward, and guess how they are going to perform and what sort of judgement they will employ during their time with the canopy they are considering, and I for one do not know of anyone with the ability to predict the future in that manner.

Truth be told, there are a good number of skilled, experienced jumpers who I have a great deal of respect for, and who started jumping long after I did. Despite that, I cannot recall any of them as being 'stand-out' students who shot right out of the gate like a champion, where everyone knew they would stick with the sport and go on to be instructors or medal winning competitors. As good as they are now, they were all the same in the beginning.

The point is that there's no way to tell who is going to be the next 'Prof Kallend', and who is going to be the next divot in the landing area. For this reason, you make equipment choices and decisions about things like weather and big-ways on the conservative side, so if turns out you're dealing with a guy who might be a potential divot, you stack the deck in his favor, not accelerate his trip down the road to the ER.


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:39 AM
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 8:53 AM
Post #14 of 74 (6795 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

That he's a prof says he's likely above average in understanding information and motivated, he's also a pretty good aircraft pilot...

One might expect that he would excel in skydiving, in fact if he DIDN'T it would raise flags.


Anvilbrother  (C License)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:03 AM
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Re: [skycatcher68] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Canopy type and size really have to be taken into account when hammering someone on their wing loading. I'm 1.25 on my navigator, it has a slow predictable recovery arc, and is very tame.

The game changes if you keep the 1.25 and make the canopy something of higher performance.

Brian's WL chart is a great reference for most people in the sport, but there are situations where it's safer to go higher when you are using a bigger wing or a more docile design. IMO.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:54 AM
Post #16 of 74 (6731 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but there are situations where it's safer ,,,

No. If you deviate from any accepted recommendation to go towards a more heavily loaded canopy, you end up in a "less safe" configuration. Might not be too significant, but it is a move towards more risk. Don't kid yourself.


skycatcher68

Jan 13, 2013, 11:08 AM
Post #17 of 74 (6713 views)
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Re: [Remster] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
but there are situations where it's safer ,,,

No. If you deviate from any accepted recommendation to go towards a more heavily loaded canopy, you end up in a "less safe" configuration. Might not be too significant, but it is a move towards more risk. Don't kid yourself.

Having a too lightly loaded canopy can increase risk in certain conditions, as well.


cvfd1399  (B License)

Jan 13, 2013, 11:12 AM
Post #18 of 74 (6707 views)
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Re: [Remster] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

I was referring to it being safer to be at 1.25 on a navigator student type canopy vs a katana. It is safer to be on the navigator in that situation, but according to the chart 1.25 is 1.25 regardless of canopy type or size. We're not debating 1.1 vs 1.25.

Obviously when you increase your WL you increase risk, that was never doubted, and as I said earlier Brian's chart is genious, with a few sidebar notations.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #19 of 74 (6622 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone post that vid of the gopro foot snag?

It's not about experience, or who likes who, or whatever:

It's about decorating yourselves like a christmas tree with fishhooks, you know, for that incident that can never happen to me?

And for that argument regarding personal freedom and the "RIGHT," right, to do what you wantMad .

Every incident basically, the short version, makes it just that much harder to deal with the abutting neigbors, insurance rates, and the public in general.

Just my 2 cents
C


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:31 PM
Post #20 of 74 (6597 views)
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Re: [cvfd1399] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I was referring to it being safer to be at 1.25 on a navigator student type canopy vs a katana. It is safer to be on the navigator in that situation, but according to the chart 1.25 is 1.25 regardless of canopy type or size. We're not debating 1.1 vs 1.25.

Obviously when you increase your WL you increase risk, that was never doubted, and as I said earlier Brian's chart is genious, with a few sidebar notations.

The "chart" is more than just a table. http://bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

And to who said a too light load can add more risk: only if you jump in conditions you shouldn't.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 13, 2013, 3:56 PM
Post #21 of 74 (6577 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

...and another example of experienced people encouraging young jumpers to ignore recommendations.
"Look at me! Look what I did and I'm OK so you will be too!"

Bullshit with a capital B.

I'll thank you John to quit encouraging our young jumpers in that manner.

On top of that, it's a disgrace that you, John, so lightly blow off those who are not still alive or uninjured...all from trying to do it your way.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 13, 2013, 4:00 PM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:04 PM
Post #22 of 74 (6561 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps. The DZO and my instructor each recommended it.

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice just like you are whining now.

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

Basically what someone else jumps is between him/herself, the FAA and the DZO.
Anyone who would recommend a Stiletto, no matter the wingloading, to someone with 38 jumps is either a fool or someone trying to sell a canopy.


monkycndo  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #23 of 74 (6559 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

So john, I assume you are still going against common wisdom and jumping that Stiletto with your wingsuit? Because when you have the skills, any canopy is OK.

And when in the pattern, you don't concern yourself with other canopy pilots or what wing/WL they are flying at their experience level?

Your sigline might indicate otherwise.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #24 of 74 (6559 views)
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Re: [cavscout73] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

To sum it up...

Options:
1. Forget it and go to a different DZ
2. Stay, say nothing and avoid the guy
3. Stay and speak to the DZO about your concerns.

Ignore the comments about "whining". The ones that tell you that are 99% of the time the guilty ones.


Not an option:
1. Take care of yourself. Practice good, solid safety measures at all times throughout your skydiving career.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #25 of 74 (6545 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

One of your more brilliant post :) and it made me laugh,awesome. :)


Squeak  (E 1313)

Jan 13, 2013, 4:55 PM
Post #26 of 74 (2842 views)
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Re: [kkeenan] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
People can do what they want. It's not your job or right to tell them what to do.

So true. You can't legislate rules at someone else's dz. At your experience level, your job is to keep yourself alive. If you're confident that you're staying safe, just stay out of the way of unsafe folks and keep your eyes open for the "lessons" you can learn by watching.

Kevin K.
LOL so much for looking out for your fellow man.

If it were me and i was seriously concerned for the other jumper, I would probably have a chat and ask if they know the possible implications of stacking the odds against themselves.

But I dont tend to stand idly by and say it's not my concern.Unimpressed


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 13, 2013, 6:14 PM
Post #27 of 74 (2805 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I started jumping a Stiletto at 38 jumps. The DZO and my instructor each recommended it.

Back in those days the internet forum was rec.skydiving. Plenty of those people whined about my canopy choice just like you are whining now.

Over 2,700 jumps later I remain alive and uninjured. Along the way I won a Nationals medal and have been on 8 world record jumps of various kinds.

Basically what someone else jumps is between him/herself, the FAA and the DZO.
Anyone who would recommend a Stiletto, no matter the wingloading, to someone with 38 jumps is either a fool or someone trying to sell a canopy.


OK well I didn't want have to go here, but WTF... First, I don't think Roger Nelson was trying to sell him a canopy, because that would be who would be the one responsible in this case, if I'm not mistaken, John did his training @ skydive Chicago. Second, I do NOT think Roger Nelson was a fool. What I do know is, are the facts, and they speak loud and clear, Roger Nelson was way ahead of a lot of people in many way for many years in this sport. Many people then & and now say his was a fool for placing lightly loaded and detuned sabre's and Stiletto's into his student program was stupid and dangerous and all that shit... HE trained thousands of FJS's doing it that way with great success. I have followed that very same program, along other programs of Roger Nelson's with great results as well.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 13, 2013, 6:16 PM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 13, 2013, 10:38 PM
Post #28 of 74 (2720 views)
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Re: [skycatcher68] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

>Having a too lightly loaded canopy can increase risk in certain conditions, as well.

Of course. And having a working reserve can increase risk in certain situations. Doesn't mean it's a good idea to go without one.




kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 14, 2013, 12:20 PM
Post #30 of 74 (2601 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Yes John, but as you've been telling us for near a decade, you're better and more special than all of the rest of us.

...and another example of experienced people encouraging young jumpers to ignore recommendations.
"Look at me! Look what I did and I'm OK so you will be too!"

Bullshit with a capital B.

I'll thank you John to quit encouraging our young jumpers in that manner.

On top of that, it's a disgrace that you, John, so lightly blow off those who are not still alive or uninjured...all from trying to do it your way.

I thought you were in favor of jumpers listening to their instructors rather than anonymous posters on the internet.

Or do you have a double standard?


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 14, 2013, 7:24 PM
Post #31 of 74 (2463 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I thought you were in favor of jumpers listening to their instructors rather than anonymous posters on the internet.

Or do you have a double standard?

Another classic Kallend Misdirection Ploy (KMP).


You thought..LaughLaughLaugh


The standard is safety...why would you have to ask?

Oh, yeah...the KMP obsession.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 14, 2013, 7:25 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:03 AM
Post #32 of 74 (2358 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I thought you were in favor of jumpers listening to their instructors rather than anonymous posters on the internet.

Or do you have a double standard?

Another classic Kallend Misdirection Ploy (KMP).


You thought..LaughLaughLaugh


The standard is safety...why would you have to ask?

Oh, yeah...the KMP obsession.

Let's try that again.

Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).


(This post was edited by kallend on Jan 15, 2013, 9:19 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:24 AM
Post #33 of 74 (2336 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Your typical rhetoric, John. Again, why would you have to ask?


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 15, 2013, 10:25 AM)


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:57 AM
Post #34 of 74 (2318 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's try that again.

Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the "bad" advice of their instructor, or "bad advice" from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).and the answer is....
d. None of the above.


(This post was edited by ufk22 on Jan 15, 2013, 10:59 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #35 of 74 (2278 views)
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Re: [ufk22] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Let's try that again.

Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the "bad" advice of their instructor, or "bad advice" from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).
and the answer is....
d. None of the above.
How does the inexperienced jumper know which advice is "bad"? If they know, there's no need to ask,

So my question remains valid while yours is not.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:44 AM
Post #36 of 74 (2285 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your typical rhetoric, John. Again, why would you have to ask?

Can't answer, can you?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 12:30 PM
Post #37 of 74 (2253 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your typical rhetoric, John. Again, why would you have to ask?

Can't answer, can you?

Seriously ~ I'm not trying to fan the flame here Doc. Angelic

I know you mentioned your impressive resume of accomplishments with regard to skill...have you held an Instructor rating of any kind in the sport?

If not, have you ever considered it?

I honestly think that with the way you collate & present information you would have an interesting (positive) twist and be an asset in that area of the sport.

Just being curious.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jan 15, 2013, 3:46 PM
Post #38 of 74 (2205 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Both of you cut it out.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:21 PM
Post #39 of 74 (2190 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Someone post that vid of the gopro foot snag?

It's not about experience, or who likes who, or whatever:

It's about decorating yourselves like a christmas tree with fishhooks, you know, for that incident that can never happen to me?

And for that argument regarding personal freedom and the "RIGHT," right, to do what you wantMad .

Every incident basically, the short version, makes it just that much harder to deal with the abutting neigbors, insurance rates, and the public in general.

Just my 2 cents
C

qudo's to the modeerator, GLAD you said it! SmileSmileSmile
C

"Both of you cut it out. " AWESOME!!! Wink


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:23 PM
Post #40 of 74 (2190 views)
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Re: [kallend] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:44 PM
Post #41 of 74 (2184 views)
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Re: [] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice talkin' to ya'.
*shaking head*


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Jan 15, 2013, 6:12 PM
Post #42 of 74 (2161 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Many years ago, I was an accomplished cliff diver/gymnast. One day I took a couple friends up a 60 foot cliff over the St. Croix River. One of these guys was a very good ski jumper and pretty good gymnast. He did well, followed instructions and managed some pretty impressive dives.
The other was a football player with little athletic ability and virtually no air sense at all. He had no business being there. But, his ego was not going to let him back down. Plus, I certainly wasn’t smart enough (at age 17) to tell him to take the path to the beach. It’s amazing how water can make your skin turn black & blue. But even more amazing that he climbed back up for a second attempt. Shocked
The point is this… Just because the experienced guy knows what he’s doing doesn’t mean others should follow. Sometimes it works out ok…sometimes, not so much? Sometimes, you just have to tell them to take the path down to the beach!
Wink


(This post was edited by skyjumpenfool on Jan 15, 2013, 6:16 PM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 16, 2013, 8:08 AM
Post #43 of 74 (2017 views)
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Re: [davelepka] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.

One size does not fit all. Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them. Most certainly NOT by anonymous posters on internet forums.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 16, 2013, 10:21 AM
Post #44 of 74 (1986 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.
To get back to the real question, should anyone with 38 jumps be advised or allowed to jump a stiletto?


One size does not fit all. Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them. Most certainly NOT by anonymous posters on internet forums.
This isn't about arguing "one size fits all". I've been teaching skydiving for over 20 years and teaching Instructors for over 10. No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 16, 2013, 9:00 PM
Post #45 of 74 (1904 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Do you think an inexperienced jumper should take the advice of their instructor, or from an anonymous source on the internet?

Pretty easy question (if you aren't trying to hide a double standard).

Ok, how about this - your right that advice from an instructor should be taken over and above than from an anonymous source on the internet. In that respect, you are correct.

You have, however, focused on one reply to your post and ignored others. How do you address my assertion that you have proven to be far above the 'average' skydiver, and that any course of action you followed may not be the best choice for the majority of new jumpers?

Just because something worked for you does not mean that it's advisable for others. To use your position against you, your suggestion that a Stiletto is acceptable for a jumper with 38 jumps is coming from an 'anonymous' source on the internet, and what 'real' jumpers should do is follow the advice of their 'real' instructors.
To get back to the real question, should anyone with 38 jumps be advised or allowed to jump a stiletto?


One size does not fit all. Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them. Most certainly NOT by anonymous posters on internet forums.
This isn't about arguing "one size fits all". I've been teaching skydiving for over 20 years and teaching Instructors for over 10. No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.

But anonymous posters on internet forums can?


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 17, 2013, 4:20 AM
Post #46 of 74 (1846 views)
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Quote:
Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them.

Quote:
No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.

If you have been working with a student from FJ to 38, any instructor who has been doing their job should be able to determine if the student has their head up the back side or not, in 38 jumps.... otherwise your a shitty instructor or not doing your job.


ufk22  (D 16168)

Jan 17, 2013, 10:34 AM
Post #47 of 74 (1752 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Every case should be taken on its merits. For a newbie jumper the merits can only be evaluated by his/her instructor or other qualified individual who has observed them.

Quote:
No one I've taught or certified with a rating has been good enough to judge a student at 38 jumps and tell me how good they will get or how badly they will injure themselves.

If you have been working with a student from FJ to 38, any instructor who has been doing their job should be able to determine if the student has their head up the back side or not, in 38 jumps.... otherwise your a shitty instructor or not doing your job.
I've seen a number of jumpers who, at 38 jumps, were struggling to progress, who would appear to have "their heads up their backside", that went on to be some of the best, most accomplished and safest skydivers around.
I've also seen "natural" skydivers who at 38 jumps could do no wrong get in over their heads and end up seriously injured or dead a few jumps or a few years later.
Any instructor who thinks they can judge long-term success based on short term progress is a "shitty instructor and not doing their job".
To once again get back to where this started, any instructor that would "recommend" that someone with 38 jumps buy a Stiletto is a fool.
Now, it could well be in John's case that this was not "recommended", but rather he, having MAD SKILZ, decided that he was ready for the canopy and no one seriously objected, which is quite different than recommending. To quote someone's sig line here "the fact that no one died doesn't mean it was a good decision".
Roger Nelson was an innovator in this sport and I have a great deal of respect for him, but one of the reasons we all know who he is was is that he constantly pushed the edge in everything he did. Sometimes it worked out well and sometimes it didn't.
And by the way, I've been told by many that Roger NEVER used Stilettos as part of his student program, just Sabres.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 17, 2013, 4:57 PM
Post #48 of 74 (1697 views)
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Guys, Guys...you are letting yourselves be misdirected.

You can't set up ANYBODY based on what the future MAY hold. You go with what is NOW.

38 jumps? He just MAY be that next world champion. But not at 38 jumps. I don't care who he is or what debatable "skills" he has. 38 jumps is not enough experience for the category of canopies you are talking about. Not on the internet, not in person.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 18, 2013, 2:40 PM
Post #49 of 74 (1599 views)
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In reply to:
Guys, Guys...you are letting yourselves be misdirected.

You can't set up ANYBODY based on what the future MAY hold. You go with what is NOW.

38 jumps? He just MAY be that next world champion. But not at 38 jumps. I don't care who he is or what debatable "skills" he has. 38 jumps is not enough experience for the category of canopies you are talking about. Not on the internet, not in person.

Well, nice way to MISS THE POINT, which is:

Should an inexperienced skydiver ask questions on the internet, or ask his/her instructor?

Over and over again it's preached "Ask your instructor". Now you appear to be reversing that.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 19, 2013, 1:25 AM
Post #50 of 74 (1543 views)
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Do you really think that I was addressing YOUR "point"?
LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Since you haven't figured it out by now, I'll spell it out for you:
I have no desire to address your KMP.

Again, please do not interject your absurdities into conversations I'm having with others.

It's stalking and it's creepy

KMP.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 19, 2013, 1:48 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 19, 2013, 4:36 AM
Post #51 of 74 (2554 views)
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Quote:
You can't set up ANYBODY based on what the future MAY hold. You go with what is NOW.

38 jumps? He just MAY be that next world champion. But not at 38 jumps. I don't care who he is or what debatable "skills" he has. 38 jumps is not enough experience for the category of canopies you are talking about. Not on the internet, not in person.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, nice way to MISS THE POINT, which is:

Should an inexperienced skydiver ask questions on the internet, or ask his/her instructor?

Over and over again it's preached "Ask your instructor". Now you appear to be reversing that.

I don't see how one has to be mutually exclusive to the other.

Are there questions you should ask your intsructor over and above the opinion of those on the internet? Yes.

Are there things that are so highly improbable that regardless of how well someone knows you or your skydiving ability nobody can give you an answer with any realistic degree of certainty? Yes.

Those are two seperate things. An instructor who has worked with you would be the best source of information with regards to skydiving decision making within the confines of common sense.

Regardless of who your instructor is, that cannot tell that it will be OK to turn off your AAD and open your main at 600ft on your next jump. You may have had a clean, trouble-free pull sequence for your last 38 jumps, and the rig you're jumping might have opened clean in far less than 600 ft for the last 38 jummps, but regardless of those facts, no instructor has the foresight to be able to reliably forecest your future performance (or that of your equipment) when your life may depend on their choice.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Jan 19, 2013, 4:37 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 19, 2013, 8:16 AM
Post #52 of 74 (2514 views)
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And how, exactly is an INEXPERIENCED skydiver supposed to tell the difference between things he should ask an instructor, and things where his/her instructor is giving bad advice. If the newbie knows the answer, then he/she doesn't need to ask in the first place.

You are just trying to have it both ways, as is popsjumper.


urlauber

Jan 19, 2013, 11:39 AM
Post #53 of 74 (2473 views)
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This discussion made me laugh.
In the USA you are allowed to drive a car when you are 16. Without doing any monitored driving practice or education. You only have to pass the tests.
You can drive a big F250 with about 362HP. You can easily kill other people on the streets.
But in my opinion, skydiving sport, is over regulated.
If someone with 50 jumps wants to jump a small elliptical canopy and a gopro on his helmet i would recommend not to do this. But i think everyone has the right to take his own decision.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 19, 2013, 1:07 PM
Post #54 of 74 (2462 views)
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Re: [urlauber] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

In the USA you are allowed to drive a car when you are 16. Without doing any monitored driving practice or education. You only have to pass the tests.


But in my opinion, skydiving sport, is over regulated.
If someone with 50 jumps wants to jump a small elliptical canopy and a gopro on his helmet i would recommend not to do this. But i think everyone has the right to take his own decision.



In reply to:

Not in Texas or California...!

Texas has mandatory drivers education and you can't get an 'unrestricted' drivers license until you're 18.

IIRC California is about that same way...I'm sure other states are either on par or heading that way.

You have to get 'certified' instruction, pass a written then a practical test proving a level of competency & be chronologically considered an adult before they turn you loose to make the usual stooopid mistakes.






Skydiving is a privileged not a right, we've learned through the piles of broken bodies & countless dents in the planet that if left to their own, many dive into the deep end long before they can even tread water.

It's set up now so that you in effect HAVE to follow a predetermined path, because it's rather hard sometimes to learn from your mistakes when you are badly broken or dead.

I remember when some instructors were never 'rated', when the only license you needed was a drivers license for beer runs - which started about noon because the morning coolers ran out, I remember when 1/2 the reserves on the DZ didn't have seals...Heck I flew jumpers for 3 years before I ever took a flying lesson!

The group was a lot smaller back then, but the fatality rate was roughly the same...that kinda tells me that taking control through the guidance of regulation has had a positive effect.

And don't think for a minute that the regulations we're dealing with right now through USPA involvement wouldn't be 10x's worse were we dealing strictly with the FAA without the buffer.


SIUCC ~ it could be worse & trust me, it's NEVER gonna be LESS regulation! Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 19, 2013, 1:13 PM)


urlauber

Jan 19, 2013, 1:48 PM
Post #55 of 74 (2444 views)
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I understand what you mean with "privileg".
We have to keep our sport save. Otherwise it will kill our sport.
But especially in the USA the proportionality between the law and the regulations in skydiving is unreal.
You have the rigth to buy and carry arms but you are not allowed to wear a camera with les than 200 jumps..
I'm thinking hard about wihich of this things is more dangerous Wink



In reply to:
In the USA you are allowed to drive a car when you are 16. Without doing any monitored driving practice or education. You only have to pass the tests.


But in my opinion, skydiving sport, is over regulated.
If someone with 50 jumps wants to jump a small elliptical canopy and a gopro on his helmet i would recommend not to do this. But i think everyone has the right to take his own decision.



In reply to:

Not in Texas or California...!

Texas has mandatory drivers education and you can't get an 'unrestricted' drivers license until you're 18.

IIRC California is about that same way...I'm sure other states are either on par or heading that way.

You have to get 'certified' instruction, pass a written then a practical test proving a level of competency & be chronologically considered an adult before they turn you loose to make the usual stooopid mistakes.






Skydiving is a privileged not a right, we've learned through the piles of broken bodies & countless dents in the planet that if left to their own, many dive into the deep end long before they can even tread water.

It's set up now so that you in effect HAVE to follow a predetermined path, because it's rather hard sometimes to learn from your mistakes when you are badly broken or dead.

I remember when some instructors were never 'rated', when the only license you needed was a drivers license for beer runs - which started about noon because the morning coolers ran out, I remember when 1/2 the reserves on the DZ didn't have seals...Heck I flew jumpers for 3 years before I ever took a flying lesson!

The group was a lot smaller back then, but the fatality rate was roughly the same...that kinda tells me that taking control through the guidance of regulation has had a positive effect.

And don't think for a minute that the regulations we're dealing with right now through USPA involvement wouldn't be 10x's worse were we dealing strictly with the FAA without the buffer.


SIUCC ~ it could be worse & trust me, it's NEVER gonna be LESS regulation! Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 19, 2013, 2:28 PM
Post #56 of 74 (2436 views)
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You have the right to buy and carry arms but you are not allowed to wear a camera with les than 200 jumps...


In reply to:

Again...yes you can buy a firearm following a 'never got CAUGHT in a felony' background search, you can not carry one concealed without a permit (regulation) after receiving considerable training & education - in most states.

You are not FREE to walk into Wal-mat buy a gun and stick it in your pocket...there are all KINDS of regulations.

And no where is ANY skydiving 'regulation' that I'm aware of, does it say 'you are not allowed to jump a camera with less than 200 jumps'

It's a recommendation IIRC, those smart enough to take good advise usually observe those, some special snowflakes with madd skills don't.

Usually those that don't observe recommendations get by, but when they get bit, it's often a pretty major deal. This isn't tennis, ya can really get dirty sometimes doin' this!
Wink

It's easy enough to turn a recommendation into a regulation though...get enough people to ignore it and get dinged up...bingo ~ another regulation!


JumpRu  (D License)

Jan 20, 2013, 6:31 AM
Post #57 of 74 (2382 views)
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Hi Doc, I agree with every single post you've made so far on this thread. That is right, jumper in question did not break a single FAA or even USPA rule so he has every right to continue on this dangerous path he chose.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 20, 2013, 4:41 PM
Post #58 of 74 (2324 views)
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In reply to:
Hi Doc, I agree with every single post you've made so far on this thread. That is right, jumper in question did not break a single FAA or even USPA rule so he has every right to continue on this dangerous path he chose.

ShockedShockedShocked







LaughLaughLaugh


5.samadhi

Jan 20, 2013, 6:10 PM
Post #59 of 74 (2304 views)
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Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

LaughLaughLaugh


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 20, 2013, 8:04 PM
Post #60 of 74 (2281 views)
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Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.


obelixtim  (D 84)

Jan 21, 2013, 3:48 AM
Post #61 of 74 (2220 views)
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Quote:
In reply to:
I understand what you mean with "privileg".
We have to keep our sport save. Otherwise it will kill our sport.
But especially in the USA the proportionality between the law and the regulations in skydiving is unreal.
You have the rigth to buy and carry arms but you are not allowed to wear a camera with les than 200 jumps..
I'm thinking hard about wihich of this things is more dangerous Wink

There may not be an actual regulation about this, but a DZO may choose not to allow people to do this on his DZ.

That is his right.

It means he is a little less likely to have to pick up the smashed carcass of someone who thought they had they experience to deal with a problem associated with the wearing of a camera.

Thats a good enough reason.

And he should also expect people who use his DZ and facilities to act with common sense, and the responsibility to recognise their limitations, and the consequences of an accident on others......


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 21, 2013, 7:14 PM
Post #62 of 74 (2129 views)
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In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 21, 2013, 7:17 PM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 22, 2013, 12:51 AM
Post #63 of 74 (2070 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 4:57 AM
Post #64 of 74 (2038 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

Hmmm....Haha! Laugh


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 4:58 AM
Post #65 of 74 (2035 views)
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In reply to:

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue

The first canopy I bought was a Sabre2.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 22, 2013, 5:00 AM
Post #66 of 74 (2034 views)
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In reply to:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

LaughLaughLaugh

I don't think I commented on this thread before you said this, did I?


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 22, 2013, 8:54 AM
Post #67 of 74 (2000 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue

If that's what your INSTRUCTOR recommends, go for it.

My advice was to trust your instructor and not the internet forums.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 22, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #68 of 74 (1947 views)
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
Im laughing at this thread..

DocPop Kallend and Davelepka thrown into a room together...

Yeah, 10,000 jumps between us, a pile of ratings, world records, medals....hell, even you might be able to learn something.

Learning is possible in two out of three cases.
LaughTongue

no worries, just trying to wind Andy up. I am sticking to my canopy for the foreseable future. Quite happy that 8 have lots to learn still and no rush for a sexier rig.

Well since I trust your judgement and both Docpop and Kallend started off on 'aggressive' canopies, I'm off to get a Katana 107Tongue

If that's what your INSTRUCTOR recommends, go for it.

My advice was to trust your instructor and not the internet forums.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 22, 2013, 10:07 PM
Post #69 of 74 (1877 views)
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In reply to:
no worries, just trying to wind Andy up. I am sticking to my canopy for the foreseable future. Quite happy that 8 have lots to learn still and no rush for a sexier rig.

Damn! And I thought you liked the Velo on your Level 7.
Yeah, I know, it wasn't the smallest student Velo we had but, there ya' go!
You flew it like you stole it.
OK...I'll turn in my rating now.
LaughLaughLaughWinkTongue


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 22, 2013, 10:09 PM)


diver90  (D 32991)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:51 PM
Post #70 of 74 (1729 views)
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as a traveling skydiver I've come across a handfull of drop zones who almost always bend/break rules, when its a serious safety risk i always always ALWAYS bring up the issue to the jumper, whether its wing loading, jump numbers, pull altitudes, break off/tracking procedures, and if they dont listen bottom line i bring it up to the DZO, i dont go seeking blood, i just mention it to the DZO or manager, hey, so and so could use some coaching regarding (insert issue here)


Pulse  (D 16387)

Jan 30, 2013, 12:10 AM
Post #71 of 74 (1570 views)
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Do you know what wing loading he was coming from as a student?


BigMikeH77  (B 39490)

Jan 30, 2013, 9:37 AM
Post #72 of 74 (1474 views)
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Does anyone mind if a noob chimes in here?? I have two jumps. TWO. I wish I had more, and will in the future, but for now I have TWO. That being said, here's my take...

1) It's okay to ask questions here on the board because most of us, ESPECIALLY those new to the sport, don't live at or near the DZ and dont have daily access to our instructors.

2) It is preferable to take advice from your home DZ instructors. They are more knowledgeable with the local equipment, enviornment, and rules.

3) No one should attempt to learn to skydive via the internet, or assume that they have the experience to practically apply concepts that can only be learned through time, repetition, and effort.

4) Not unlilke the news, all jumpers - experienced and inexperienced alike - should get their information from a variety of sources and use their common sense, good judgement, and sound reasoning to determine what is the best and most accurate. Keep in mind point #2.

5) As it pertains to this discussion, I really don't believe that a jumper with 38 entries in their logbook would be the BEST person to take important advice from but would still listen to their experience and suggestions because they have more jumps than I.

6) No, I don't believe that just because someone theoretically CAN so something that most others would consider dangerous that they should. As over regulated as our sport may seem to some, we are still SELF REGULATED. If you think the rules are a pain in the butt now, just wait until a bunch of young (meaning inexperienced) jumpers do a series of stupid things and get people hurt. Then there will be cries from the whuffo masses for regulation and rules and you'll see what fun REAL restrictions are.

7) To ignore the advice and experience of more experienced jumpers, to disregard the SIM, and to "do your own thing" to the extent that it endangers yourself and others unnecessairily is to disrespect all of those that have learned the hard way - through injury and even death - so that we may not have to.

Okay I hope I havent upset anyone or stepped on any toes here... Those are just my thoughts. Now I'm going to pretend to be productive here at work.

Thanks for reading! :-)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 30, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #73 of 74 (1456 views)
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Re: [BigMikeH77] low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for reading! :-)

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Well said BigMike ~ keep that attitude and you'll go far! Stay safe. Cool


DTMH

Feb 25, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #74 of 74 (1223 views)
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Re: low jump numbers, camera and low exits [In reply to] Can't Post

thank for this debate, as an AFF jumper I'm appreciating reading the cons of trying to upgrade to quickly as a friend of mine thinks he will do.
When we chat on gopro's buying gear exc I've leaned towards discussing it with my jump coach as heeding his/her advice. I'm glad I've taken that approach

I can't wait until I get to bring my GoPro with me and have a certain sense of comfort doing so, but I'm not in a rush.. Right now just learning and enjoying the flight is pretty cool



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