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AAD Market / Competition

 

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df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 7:46 AM
Post #26 of 60 (1603 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 8:58 AM
Post #27 of 60 (1574 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

Risky how? Has it helped you learn what you wanted to learn? Is the feedback helpful or not? It's far from a "scientific sample" or rigorous market research, but you've received a variety of opinions and the discourse has stayed fairly respectful. I'm not sure you could/should expect much more on an open forum.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:11 AM
Post #28 of 60 (1565 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

Risky how? Has it helped you learn what you wanted to learn? Is the feedback helpful or not? It's far from a "scientific sample" or rigorous market research, but you've received a variety of opinions and the discourse has stayed fairly respectful. I'm not sure you could/should expect much more on an open forum.

Smile

Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

On the other hand Cypres isn't listed, soo sorry...

On the other hand the folks at cypres in Ohio are top notch and have always provided great phone support!

C


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #29 of 60 (1559 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Two thoughts.

1) We have moderators on this site. I'm pretty sure if they thought I was "hijacking" a thread vs. answering a question directly, they'd let me know.

2) I have no idea what your point is.

Have a nice day. Smile


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:26 AM
Post #30 of 60 (1556 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Please see the following or read the stickey,...

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread
On the other hand Cypres isn't listed, soo sorry...

On the other hand the folks at cypres in Ohio are top notch and have always provided great phone support!

C
Maid it cricky fer ya.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:44 AM
Post #31 of 60 (1545 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Once again reading the posts in the thread is alwys a good idea before posting. Smile

[Hint: he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg. Is the link you put up relevant to that?]


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:50 AM
Post #32 of 60 (1518 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

I am responding to the above comment about "communicate directly...with the manufacturer,"

jesheee Tongue "I love you guys,...can't we all get along,"

The point being the manufacturers communicate directly on a daily basis, if you had read the stickey you would see a rather large list, communicating with the vendors and manufacturers is not an experiment as df8m1 is asking and if he had read the stickey he or it would know that the manufacturers are very, veery cummunicative! Thanks for pointing out my miscommunication. You don't need to point out that I have trouble spelling,...it's these blasted small buttoms and my fat fingers.
C


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:54 AM
Post #33 of 60 (1516 views)
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Re: [Divalent] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Once again reading the posts in the thread is alwys a good idea before posting. Smile

[Hint: he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg. Is the link you put up relevant to that?]

I will decide if this thread has been hijacked or not, and it's all good. The term risky relates to offending someone or getting into an argument of some sort. I can see how this could become a PR nightmare, as there are a lot of personalities out there that live to stir the pot.

I think this thread does represent a some what realistic representation of the market. Looking at how many people have read this thread, and how many have posted as well as what they posted says a lot. Given the views and very few comments challenging other comments, I am led to think that the viewers either agree or don’t disagree enough to comment otherwise. As such, it is clear to me that jumpers are ok with one or two AAD manufacturers to choose from, and really do not care where their equipment comes from. Not relating to a quality issue but rather an economic philosophy.

Now I know this is not a proper market pole, but it is enough for me to be confident when I speak to my investors that the sport market is saturated, for lack of a better term, and thus too great of a financial risk.


“ he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg.”

That statement is both correct and not, Yes, I am exploring the market to evaluate interest in another AAD option, however, my intentions to build an AAD for the sport market were tied to the market interest I was exploring, and as stated above, I don’t see the market interest to justify the risk in the sport market.


Edit notes:

I spoke with a very good friend who thought I should clarify some information that I may have not worded exact enough and that may lead some to a different conclusion than I had intended.

Regarding the decision to move the cutter from bottom to the top, that was a decision made my the individual container manufacturers and not the AAD manufacturers, also, not all container manufacturers moved the cutter to the top, some still locate the cutter on the bottom.


Regarding the reserve pin strength, I personally would be happier with a stronger reserve pin that is designed for use with the 0 grommet.


(This post was edited by df8m1 on Jan 15, 2013, 11:11 AM)


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:06 AM
Post #34 of 60 (1508 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Please see the following or read the stickey,...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

On the other hand Cypres isn't listed, soo sorry...

C

Cypres is the name of a product made by Airtec GmbH - airtecjuergen - Juergen Sennert. They are third from the top of the list your so eloquently referenced, SSK is the USA service center for Airteck.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:27 AM
Post #35 of 60 (1498 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Once again reading the posts in the thread is alwys a good idea before posting. Smile

[Hint: he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg. Is the link you put up relevant to that?]

I will decide if this thread has been hijacked or not, and it's all good. The term risky relates to offending someone or getting into an argument of some sort. I can see how this could become a PR nightmare, as there are a lot of personalities out there that live to stir the pot.

I think this thread does represent a some what realistic representation of the market. Looking at how many people have read this thread, and how many have posted as well as what they posted says a lot. Given the views and very few comments challenging other comments, I am led to think that the viewers either agree or don’t disagree enough to comment otherwise. As such, it is clear to me that jumpers are ok with one or two AAD manufacturers to choose from, and really do not care where their equipment comes from. Not relating to a quality issue but rather an economic philosophy.

Now I know this is not a proper market pole, but it is enough for me to be confident when I speak to my investors that the sport market is saturated, for lack of a better term, and thus too great of a financial risk.


“ he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg.”

That statement is both correct and not, Yes, I am exploring the market to evaluate interest in another AAD option, however, my intentions to build an AAD for the sport market were tied to the market interest I was exploring, and as stated above, I don’t see the market interest to justify the risk in the sport market.


Edit notes:

I spoke with a very good friend who thought I should clarify some information that I may have not worded exact enough and that may lead some to a different conclusion than I had intended.

Regarding the decision to move the cutter from bottom to the top, that was a decision made my the individual container manufacturers and not the AAD manufacturers, also, not all container manufacturers moved the cutter to the top, some still locate the cutter on the bottom.


Regarding the reserve pin strength, I personally would be happier with a stronger reserve pin that is designed for use with the 0 grommet.

I'd be happy to see more options in the AAD market. I'll likely not select one purely based on price or location of manufacture. I may be in the minority but I have no issues with scheduled maint for these things. I think it's perfectly acceptable and can catch problems that a POST may or may not be able to. In the case of CYPRES I would like to see a longer lifetime.

Agree with your comments on preferring a bottom mounted cutter for the reasons you identified. I'm not sure the market is saturated so much as there is (with good reason) trepidation with newer units. My current rig has a bottom mount cutter so I feel like I can accept more risk. If I had a rig that locates the cutter on top of the reserve I don’t have that luxury.


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jan 15, 2013, 12:31 PM
Post #36 of 60 (1474 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't necessarily think the sport market is saturated. However if you came to market with a 'me too' product which was little different from the current offerings then I'd be surprised if you got many sales. Simply put: cypress has a proven track record and a new device does not.

However, if yours was better in some way and that improvement was valued by jumpers then I'm sure you'd get takers (I'm thinking here of Skyhook vs RSL as an example).

So really it all boils down to how better your product will be vs the others.

Good luck! SmileSmileSmile


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 3:12 PM
Post #37 of 60 (1431 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

Risky how? Has it helped you learn what you wanted to learn? Is the feedback helpful or not? It's far from a "scientific sample" or rigorous market research, but you've received a variety of opinions and the discourse has stayed fairly respectful. I'm not sure you could/should expect much more on an open forum.

SPEAKING ABOUT MANUFACTURER'S:

We had some questions and concerns and,... paraphrasing NWFlyer somewhat regarding the subject of what might be: "Too Risky," and or what we can expect or should expect from our manufacturers the following should help understand and help to answere your question:

This morning some of us had a question that we posted to this web site. This evening at around 5 pm we recived an answere, from the manufacturer! As NWFlyer points out Wink, so to speak: nothing ventured, nothing gained. You needent have to experiment to see just how responsive some of these manufacturers can be! So I would do as she suggests.

The following link/post is UPT responding to "jumpers," on the same day, which is generally typical of this forum:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3656871;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I don't mean to single out any vendor over another, generally they all respond, if they are aware of the concern. Nor do I, or am I reccommending that this web site be used instead of a direct contact. Most manufacturers in this buisness are aware that their customers are a very demanding bunch. And they, at least in my experience are more than willing to serve as best they can! And as you have asked initally this is an American company, not just an overseas sales office, many as I do factor this in in our purchasing decisions!
C

NWFlyer (Krisanne) Smile , is I belive, pointing out a kind of a limit regarding what "you could/should" expect on an open forum, I am not as kind as she. I will point out the Risk any manufacturer takes by not communicating directly with jumpers. Skydiving is for the most part a small community. We know where our equipment is manufactured and the fact that we don't have an American AAD has not gone unnoticed. I suspect our cousins across the pond think about this from time to time. Perhaps a better example are the jumpsuits on ebay that are made in china. I'm sure they sell a bunch. But I know many that are very vocal about buying American! And I know many more that have turned up their noses at the lower cost ebay promises in favor of supporting our Country.
C


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:03 PM
Post #38 of 60 (1414 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:


SPEAKING ABOUT MANUFACTURER'S:


This morning some of us had a question that we posted to this web site. This evening at around 5 pm we recived an answere, from the manufacturer! As NWFlyer points out Wink, so to speak: nothing ventured, nothing gained. You needent have to experiment to see just how responsive some of these manufacturers can be!

C

I will attempt to approach this from a different direction using the above example as a reference.

Unlike the above description of a manufacturer answering a question posted by a jumper, this thread began with an open ended question from a manufacturer to jumpers regarding an opinion based subject about, if there is a demand for an additional AAD on the market, and, if it being made in the USA would have any market advantage.

This opens up to door to passionate points of view that can be considered as bias by others and to be blunt, start a pissing contest.

There are Cypres people, and Vigil people, that will argue to the death that one is better than the other, or some such thing, I am pleased that has not been the case... yet any way lol.

The idea of manufacturers answering specific questions is common sense, opening up a debate with the masses on the other hand has the potential for all kinds of issues, such as this argument it's self. No two people interpret information the same, and as such, there is always someone who gets their shorts in a bunch over something that has nothing really to do with anything, especially anything they are directly involved in.

It is obvious that I worded my statement poorly, and that resulted in an unintentional interpretation that you are reacting to, and this undoubtedly could go on for years, and that, from my point of view, supports my statement regarding the possible risk involved in such a “taking of a chance” so to speak.

In an effort to end this tangent, I will thank you for pointing out my poorly worded thought, you have avenged those of which I may have unintentionally impugned, and for that potential, I sincerely apologize. Wink


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:30 PM
Post #39 of 60 (1405 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Winston Churchill: Don't ever,... ever, quit." Err, I think he said that...

Don't apologize...and I don't see where you worded anything poorly...

Welcome to skydiving! Smile


C


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 6:48 PM
Post #40 of 60 (1384 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyI'd be happy to see more options in the AAD market. I'll likely not select one purely based on price or location of manufacture. I may be in the minority but I have no issues with scheduled maint for these things. I think it's perfectly acceptable and can catch problems that a POST may or may not be able to. In the case of CYPRES I would like to see a longer lifetime.

Agree with your comments on preferring a bottom mounted cutter for the reasons you identified. I'm not sure the market is saturated so much as there is (with good reason) trepidation with newer units. My current rig has a bottom mount cutter so I feel like I can accept more risk. If I had a rig that locates the cutter on top of the reserve I don’t have that luxury.
An annual maintenance and a lifespan try to insure (as much as is possible), that the units in operation, are operating as designed, and to head off the eventual failure of the unit due to what ever. My TV was 4 years old and one day half the screen went black, the next day it was fine. Then two months later, half the screen went black again, and it was not that old.

Circuit boards can crack, trances can crack from heating and cooling, solder joints can crack etc. I have repaired automotive electronics that stop working just by resoldering everything on the board. With a micro scope, if u know what you are looking for, you can see cracks in the solder that make an brake depending on temperature.

Additionally, the baro transducers have a membrane that flexes as barometric pressure changes, and the data sheets usually will have a drift over time speck as the membrane ages and it’s flexibility changes. Now usually this drift is minimal, but it is possible to have some drift beyond the voltage reference’s ability to bring it back with in range when it is in for service, so it would have to be retired.

Even the accelerometers can drift a bit over time and use. It is important to make sure all the instruments are indicating properly, because the software executes based on where it “thinks” it is.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 17, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #41 of 60 (1293 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[replyI'd be happy to see more options in the AAD market. I'll likely not select one purely based on price or location of manufacture. I may be in the minority but I have no issues with scheduled maint for these things. I think it's perfectly acceptable and can catch problems that a POST may or may not be able to. In the case of CYPRES I would like to see a longer lifetime.

Agree with your comments on preferring a bottom mounted cutter for the reasons you identified. I'm not sure the market is saturated so much as there is (with good reason) trepidation with newer units. My current rig has a bottom mount cutter so I feel like I can accept more risk. If I had a rig that locates the cutter on top of the reserve I don’t have that luxury.

An annual maintenance and a lifespan try to insure (as much as is possible), that the units in operation, are operating as designed, and to head off the eventual failure of the unit due to what ever. My TV was 4 years old and one day half the screen went black, the next day it was fine. Then two months later, half the screen went black again, and it was not that old.

Circuit boards can crack, trances can crack from heating and cooling, solder joints can crack etc. I have repaired automotive electronics that stop working just by resoldering everything on the board. With a micro scope, if u know what you are looking for, you can see cracks in the solder that make an brake depending on temperature.

Additionally, the baro transducers have a membrane that flexes as barometric pressure changes, and the data sheets usually will have a drift over time speck as the membrane ages and it’s flexibility changes. Now usually this drift is minimal, but it is possible to have some drift beyond the voltage reference’s ability to bring it back with in range when it is in for service, so it would have to be retired.

Even the accelerometers can drift a bit over time and use. It is important to make sure all the instruments are indicating properly, because the software executes based on where it “thinks” it is.
Yup! Sadly too many people go "durr" electronics should last forever and you'll should never have to touch a thing. MTBF can be quite long but nothing lasts forever.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 25, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #42 of 60 (1192 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I am wondering how many jumpers factor in the cost of the annual checks over the life of an AAD, and add that to the initial purchase price when they are shopping for an AAD?


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:13 PM
Post #43 of 60 (1155 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

You might also want to consider the "Buy American Act."

For more information just ask any of the current manufacturers in DeLand, about component, subassembly , and fabric/material purchases/suppliers. The military and other organizations are the major purchasers for Cypres and Vigil,... to put it bluntly we don't need another AAD manufacturer from china.
C


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:32 PM
Post #44 of 60 (1141 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Or we wouldn't trust AAD from China


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:50 PM
Post #45 of 60 (1135 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am wondering how many jumpers factor in the cost of the annual checks over the life of an AAD, and add that to the initial purchase price when they are shopping for an AAD?

I thought about it. Current cost on CYPRES maint seems reasonable to me. *shrug Wouldn't mind paying a little less up front though. (Initial cost+Maint 1+Maint 2)/12.5 is not bad for "insurance".


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 26, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #46 of 60 (1066 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You might also want to consider the "Buy American Act."

For more information just ask any of the current manufacturers in DeLand, about component, subassembly , and fabric/material purchases/suppliers. The military and other organizations are the major purchasers for Cypres and Vigil,... to put it bluntly we don't need another AAD manufacturer from china.
C

China?? I am in Michigan, USA. I have been developing Military cargo AAD systems for several years now, and will be developing a manned unit this year, so I am familiar with the requirements materials and such.

I think most new jumpers have no idea about the annual servicing requirements when they are looking at making a purchase, they ask their instructors what they recommend, and then look for the best purchase price for that unit, not knowing that the recurring costs will add up over the life of the unit. Granted, they do not have many choices, so it really doesn’t matter I guess, as was said, it is the cost of insurance.

Looking at it from a marketing stand point, one could either include the majority of the maintance costs in the initial purchase price, lowering the post purchase costs, or keep the initial cost lower, and then spread the balance over the life of the unit, like financing it.

It is interesting to see that we have gone from, “it really doesn’t matter where it is made as long as it works”, to “nothing from China” lol. So it would seem to be more important that something not be made in China, than made in the USA,…. interesting.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 27, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #47 of 60 (985 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You might also want to consider the "Buy American Act."

For more information just ask any of the current manufacturers in DeLand, about component, subassembly , and fabric/material purchases/suppliers. The military and other organizations are the major purchasers for Cypres and Vigil,... to put it bluntly we don't need another AAD manufacturer from china.
C

So when did Germany and Belgium become US statesTongue I don't know the details of the buy American Act - but mentioning it in the same post as Cypres and Vigil is funnyLaugh


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 27, 2013, 6:57 PM
Post #48 of 60 (981 views)
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Re: [nigel99] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I know, I know,...

It might give an American Manufacturer just the leg up they need to take over the market!

C

"China?? I am in Michigan, USA. I have been developing Military cargo AAD systems for several years now, and will be developing a manned unit this year, so I am familiar with the requirements materials and such. "

Never said your in China, just trying to point out the buy American act for TSO' d equipment would give a big leg up to a domestic manuf..

Please also coorect me here if I am not correct,...
But don't most deployment systems, (Except the Strong Screeamer,) have at the heart of their actuators a Cypres unit? I mean that seems reason enough alone to manufacture a domestic unit? Wink


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 27, 2013, 8:17 PM)


hackish  (No License)

Jan 28, 2013, 2:35 PM
Post #49 of 60 (908 views)
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Re: AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a neat idea but unfortunately skydivers are an emotional bunch. If you ever read one of the zillion I only jump this AAD because threads you will know this. The chance of failure of any of the AADs already on the market is so tiny you could mention it in fractions in a million jumps.

The first time there is a failure, even someone pressurizing a plane or setting the unit incorrectly you can expect your product to be thrown under the bus. The story will subsequently be retold with a variable rate of accuracy for years every time someone who purchased a different AAD wants to justify why theirs is better.

Periodic maintenance is a really good idea from a business point of view. You will have a good stream of income and as improvements come along and defects are found you can secretly switch out the faulty components. If I had to put bread on the table with AAD sales I'd want them coming back every 4 years for a check.

-Michael


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 2, 2013, 10:04 AM
Post #50 of 60 (809 views)
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Re: [hackish] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's a neat idea but unfortunately skydivers are an emotional bunch. If you ever read one of the zillion I only jump this AAD because threads you will know this. The chance of failure of any of the AADs already on the market is so tiny you could mention it in fractions in a million jumps.

The first time there is a failure, even someone pressurizing a plane or setting the unit incorrectly you can expect your product to be thrown under the bus. The story will subsequently be retold with a variable rate of accuracy for years every time someone who purchased a different AAD wants to justify why theirs is better.

Periodic maintenance is a really good idea from a business point of view. You will have a good stream of income and as improvements come along and defects are found you can secretly switch out the faulty components. If I had to put bread on the table with AAD sales I'd want them coming back every 4 years for a check.

-Michael

I think the words you chose to use regarding "YOU CAN SECRETLY SWITCH OUT THE FAULTY COMPONENTS."

to be somewhat offensive!

Perhaps you didn't quite realize the full implications under the influence of whatever...of what you were saying...Wink

C


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