Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
AAD Market / Competition

 


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 12, 2013, 2:11 PM
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AAD Market / Competition Can't Post

Full disclosure, I am Free Fall Accessories.

With the exiting of the ARGUS AAD, again leaving only Cypres and Vigil AADs, (both made outside the USA), I am curious as to what everyone’s thoughts would be if an AAD was available that was made in the USA?

It will be interesting to see how the M2 AAD does over the next couple years. As I understand it, the price is around (+-) $1000.00 USD, however it to is made outside the USA.

Now of course I know that there have been AADs that were made in the USA, but they, for all intents and purposes, have faded in to history. I am asking, "what if you had the option of an AAD, (comparable in performance and options to current AADs), that was made in the USA?" Would you be more inclined to "buy American"?.


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jan 12, 2013, 2:33 PM
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I don't really care where it's made. I'll buy the best kit for the job. Okay, I'm not a US citizen but that's what it boils down to if for this type of equipment.

If you've got a product that's better than the cypress then by all means bring it to market. Just because it's 'made in the USA' wouldn't be sufficient IMHO.

Good luck with your venture.


blueblur  (A 64923)

Jan 12, 2013, 2:53 PM
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I'll second that. If it works as reliably or more so than the Vigil/Cypres options, sure. When it comes to saving my or my wife's lives, performance and reliability trumps where it's made without question.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 12, 2013, 5:28 PM
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I am looking at this space currently as we, have / are, developing technology for specialized military applications that would transfer over to the sport applications with some tweaks.

Even with a good portion of the instrumentation and processing logic proven or at a high confidence level, the capital outlay to design, build, and validate a prototype sport AAD is significant, let alone getting all the rig manufacturers to approve it etc, so regardless if it is a better AAD, with three or four AAD manufacturers competing for the small market, return on investment is a concern.

I am confident that our operational logic will keep it from firing when you slam the trunk or car shut, or in the plane for that matter, and still initiate reserve deployment when it is set to.

The issue that has been the back breaker for AADs is the cutter. I am not a fan of placing the cutter above the pilot chute for the simple fact that, if the loop gets pinched in the cutter, you can pull the reserve handle all day long nothing will come out. I understand why the cutters were moved from below the reserve, but I think a back up device should remain passive, always allowing deployment with pin extraction, even if the cutter fails to cut the loop. This is what I am currently looking at, and will be a vary large factor in my decision to enter this space with a product.

The concept of performance being dominant in a purchasing decision is a good thing, a must IMOP, as, regardless of how much you spent on gear, being able walk back to the packing area is priceless. My curiosity is, given everything being equal performance wise, are there any pros or cons to where it is made, and would that influence your purchasing decision?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jan 12, 2013, 5:56 PM
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My personal take on it is that Airtec is making such a good product that you could only succeed by giving people a reason to switch. Their weakness in the marketplace is price, the need for service, and life limit. You need to beat them on at least two of those points, plus be nearly completely reliable to compete. I am a Canadian, but I'd say you would have as much success by attempting flag waving as GM and Ford do. If you have a good product at a good price and a well run reputable organization, there will be a place for you. The nature of your questions seem to indicate that you are wondering if being US made would give you an advantage. The answer is no.

Ken Gowler


(This post was edited by gowlerk on Jan 12, 2013, 6:01 PM)


RiggerLee

Jan 12, 2013, 6:54 PM
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I think there could be some advantages for you. Looking at this in the long term, think about what will happion to overseas corperations as the dollar becomes less attractive. It's being bropped up very heavily right now to try to maintain us markets for foren, chinese, goods. Right now it's to there advantage to do this but as us debt becomes more and more unatractive I think you will see a decline in the strength of the dollar. In other words over seas manufactoring/foren goods may become much more expenceve. No more wallmart. as an example Apple seems to be moveing some of it's production here. I think you'll see more of this at least from people looking far enough down the road.

So withen say five years it might actually be an advantage to build here in the US. On the other hand I'd look sereously at the liability disadvantages of being incoperated in the us. How much more exposure do you have. This might be a short vs long term statagy. Eather might be workable if you plan in advance with the expectation of law suits. It's easier to take the money and run if your bags are already packed.

Lee


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 12, 2013, 11:58 PM
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The lawsuit aspect is indeed a factor, it would be interesting to know how much the AAD manufacturers spend each year for legal representation. I think Mr. Booth has the right idea with no insurance which is the big incentive for BS law suits.

Perhaps it would be a better idea to create a shell company in Bermuda, I think that would help isolate the legal aspect, and would have tax benefits to boot!

I can see producing something that sells for around a $800.00 / $1000.00 USD, (about 32% average less than a Cypres), if the volume were there (1000 + units a year), and I doubt that kind of volume is remotely achievable in the sport market given Cypres’s market share.

There are some good reasons for requiring some kind of annual with this type of equipment, how often and how much it costs is debatable though.

So far my personal thoughts have been confirmed, I thought I would throw it up in the air and see if it blue any ware. I can justify R & D on the cutter concept because it has Military applications, so if the fruit of that effort is sweet, it will be a matter of financial risk, and if it is worth it.

I am surprised that someone has not come up with an App for a smart phone yet, then with a simple blue tooth power unit for the cutter, you could have an AAD that you can play Angry Birds on in the plane during the ride up, lol.


piisfish

Jan 13, 2013, 12:13 AM
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Like this ?
Attachments: image.jpg (52.0 KB)


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 13, 2013, 12:25 AM
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That is funny! Does it actually work?


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jan 13, 2013, 2:49 AM
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The other thing you might struggle with are the patents. Cypres don't have it completely sewn up but the cutter design is there and the one for the electronics unit covers both pressure measurements and accelerometers so building a new one that didn't breach their patents could be just as hard as making the device reliable.

I have a cypres and I see why servicing is important to identify defective components but the 12 year age limit doesn't seem consistent with the 'wear out' phase of electronic systems (do some research on Mean Time Between Failures - MTBF) and you'll see what I mean.

Maybe having devices with no fixed lifespan is not a good business model for them?


gowlerk  (C 3196)

Jan 13, 2013, 9:30 AM
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Re: [RiggerLee] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't go betting against the US dollar as a business strategy. It may decline in the long run against already too low Chinese and other emerging currencies, but the competition is selling in Euros, and I wouldn't want to be holding these now. No one has ever made money betting against the US economy long term. And it's just getting in gear for an energy boom that is going to radically alter the current picture. The US remains as the most vibrant, diverse, and leading economy in the world.

I would love to see more AAD competition. I've been waiting two years now for the M2 here in North America. But yes, the development costs for such a small market item must be very challenging.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 13, 2013, 9:49 AM
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Of course it is not lol, a built in life span means potentially more future product sold, or the user goes with some one else with a longer span, or cheaper servicing perhaps.

I have read all the patents for Cypres, Vigil, Argus, Astra, and some obscure ones as well, not worried about the electronic aspect, and my approach to the cutter is different as well, Sure I can figure that at least one will try to bankrupt me in an effort to keep competition from the market, but again, it would be interesting to know if Cypres went after Vigil, Argus, and Astra? I heard something about a cutter design or something years ago, but I do not remember who vs. who, and what it was over.

All electronic AADs have baro pressure transducers and accelerometers, nothing novel in the use of those instruments there. Now the operational logic that uses the measurements is another story, and again my approach is / would be different.

This is another financial risk that needs to be taken into consideration though. The whole purpose for producing a sport unit is to increase revenue, but compared to the Military purchasing volumes, the sport market is barely a sample purchase lol. Even if the sport sales were enough to cover the legal expenses, it would not be worth it. My investors have asked me a couple of times about a civilian unit, and each time I tell them the liability alone is too high, there is not enough gold at the end of that rainbow to make it worth while lol, and those thoughts are being confirmed.

Really if you think about it, Sport Skydiving is a very small market, and only a portion of that market uses an AAD, so when you look at the two, or with M2, three, AAD manufacturers fighting over the small group within a small group, it is easy to justify not getting in the mix. Some times more money is made not doing something lol.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 9:53 AM
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you considering a different type of cutter design?


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 13, 2013, 9:54 AM
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In reply to:
I would love to see more AAD competition. I've been waiting two years now for the M2 here in North America. reply]

At the last PIA Alti-2 announced that they had the exclusive rights to M2 sales in the USA, but there is nothing on their site and M2 has a booth at PIA separate from them. Any idea what happened?


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:04 AM
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In reply to:
Are you considering a different type of cutter design?

Yes, As I stated above, I do not like the possible failure mode where a pinched loop will lock the reserve up.

Now it is obvious that the cutter is intended to always cut the loop and not pinch any of it, but I look at that as the glass half full.

When the cutters were at the bottom of the loop, if it pinched, you still could save yourself, but with it now on top, if it pinches the loop the reserve is locked in the container.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:27 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Are you considering a different type of cutter design?

Yes, As I stated above, I do not like the possible failure mode where a pinched loop will lock the reserve up.

Now it is obvious that the cutter is intended to always cut the loop and not pinch any of it, but I look at that as the glass half full.

When the cutters were at the bottom of the loop, if it pinched, you still could save yourself, but with it now on top, if it pinches the loop the reserve is locked in the container.

I always wondered if a system that actually 'pulled the pin' wouldn't be a better alternative...they way the old 'AOD's' were set up...?


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 13, 2013, 11:05 AM
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[replyI always wondered if a system that actually 'pulled the pin' wouldn't be a better alternative...they way the old 'AOD's' were set up...?
IMOP yes, pulling the pin as the only method of pack opening is the best, but the systems to do so are bulky compared to cutter systems. And with the modern tight rigs bulk is not a good selling point. For a student rig it would be fine, but those rigs are not stylish to begin with lol. Just moving the cutters to the top of the reserve had cosmetic affects.

I have puller that I designed being used on a recoverable, sub orbital rocket, and I have concept designs of more compact pullers, but still the puller cable housing is bulky, then you add an RSL and the reserve rip cord has a bunch of crap on it which creates the possibility of other problems.


Skybear

Jan 13, 2013, 11:31 AM
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There were accidents when the pin-pulling AODs didn't pull the pin, because it got bent somehow during climb, exit or freefall. This alone is the reason why Helmut Cloth decided to follow a different path and figure out another way to open an container.

Does somebody really want to go back to the good old time? Remember, sex was safe and skydiving was dangerous then. Wink


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 13, 2013, 1:44 PM
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In reply to:
There were accidents when the pin-pulling AODs didn't pull the pin, because it got bent somehow during climb, exit or freefall.

Does somebody really want to go back to the good old time?

Bent pins then, and pinched closing loops now, both are problems that can have an undesirable effect on the reserves ability to be deployed. Modern rigs have better reserve pin protection, but you are correct in that a bent pin can lock a reserve container just as a pinched closing loop can.

In reality these are remote possibilities, but from my perspective, and I bet Mr. Cloth's as well, even small odds are too great, especially when you are the one speeding toward the planet.

As you pointed out, Mr. Cloth saw a problem and set out to solve it, and in the original configuration, the cutter was placed on the bottom of the pack assembly, and this worked well until some long closing loops. (that if I remember right were not siliconed), took a set and prevented four reserves on the same dive from opening. As a result of that problem, the cutters were moved to the top of the pack, however, this solution introduces a new problem of the loop gets snagged or pinched in the cutter.

Don’t misunderstand me to be declaring that cutters on top of the pilot chute are “Black Death”, or that one manufacturer or the other has bad cutters. I am simply looking at this from events that have taken place, and what possibly could. Like Mr. Cloth’s goal to overcome the bent pin potential, mine is to overcome / prevent the pinched loop potential.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 14, 2013, 7:28 AM
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I think the bent pin issue is a much greater danger than the pinched loop issue, if one has a decent cutter design in the first place. Plus, even if the AAD fails and pinches the loop, it should only be happening below 800 ft or so, so the jumper is either incapable of pulling by himself or is almost out of time to do so anyway. (Well, there is the +300 ft or so burble body position issue too.)

For the record, the pin pullers that Sentinel had at the end, their Micro Puller, were very slick, low profile and would fit on most rigs -- it wasn't like mods needed for an FXC, nor was it like the giant cylinders used on the earlier Sentinels.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:02 AM
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In reply to:
I think the bent pin issue is a much greater danger than the pinched loop issue

Quite right, the reserve pin bends much too easily. The beefier UPT pin seems to be a bit better. The reserve pin "protection" that modern rigs provide does not protect against a bent pin. Even rigs that have the pins against a jumper's back can have the pin bent by the tension in the loop (this has been noted in some other threads).


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:23 AM
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In reply to:
I think the bent pin issue is a much greater danger than the pinched loop issue, if one has a decent cutter design in the first place. Plus, even if the AAD fails and pinches the loop, it should only be happening below 800 ft or so, so the jumper is either incapable of pulling by himself or is almost out of time to do so anyway. (Well, there is the +300 ft or so burble body position issue too.)

For the record, the pin pullers that Sentinel had at the end, their Micro Puller, were very slick, low profile and would fit on most rigs -- it wasn't like mods needed for an FXC, nor was it like the giant cylinders used on the earlier Sentinels.

I'd be curious to know how many bent pins are seen during the repack cycles these days...and if it IS a problem that should be addressed.

I've never bent a pin, I've been on loads where people HAVE, but that was back in the cone & grommet days. I have see a couple that were slightly deformed but still worked as advertised.

ARE there a significant number of 'damaged' pins seen these days?


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 14, 2013, 9:25 AM
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In reply to:
Full disclosure, I am Free Fall Accessories.

I am curious as to what everyone’s thoughts would be if an AAD was available that was made in the USA?

however it to is made outside the USA.

"buy American"?.

yo mean Walmart?? I get a real rush looking at all the American flags in Walmart, with the little made in China tags on them Crazy

NO.

I watch the "Shark Tank," on TV other day,...And I was surprized to see that this show specializes in moving jobs offshore, just like MITT! I am tired to see companies move offshore, not good for our country.

The problem is that no-one is going to switch AAD's, because a better, or even American Company makes it. Like comparing main canopies most individuals stick with just a few or stay with their first purchase. Which means your looking at the first time market, for the most part, tough market to penetrate, so to speak. Considering most startups want 80 percent margins and 100k take home in the envelope!

Good Luck
C


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 14, 2013, 9:28 AM)


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Jan 14, 2013, 11:05 AM
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Hi Jim,

Quote:
I've been on loads where people HAVE, but that was back in the cone & grommet days.

A personal thought: The standard ripcord pin in use today was designed before most of us were born ( OK, not you or me Tongue ). It was designed for the old cone & grommet rigs. It was not designed for a loop & #0 spur grommet.

IMO the forces from the loop & #0 spur grommet is what is causing bent pins. It is a single point load whereas the cone & grommet design is loaded at two places.

Just my thoughts . . . .

JerryBaumchen


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 14, 2013, 11:10 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Full disclosure, I am Free Fall Accessories.

I am curious as to what everyone’s thoughts would be if an AAD was available that was made in the USA?

however it to is made outside the USA.

"buy American"?.

yo mean Walmart?? I get a real rush looking at all the American flags in Walmart, with the little made in China tags on them Crazy

NO.

I watch the "Shark Tank," on TV other day,...And I was surprized to see that this show specializes in moving jobs offshore, just like MITT! I am tired to see companies move offshore, not good for our country.

The problem is that no-one is going to switch AAD's, because a better, or even American Company makes it. Like comparing main canopies most individuals stick with just a few or stay with their first purchase. Which means your looking at the first time market, for the most part, tough market to penetrate, so to speak. Considering most startups want 80 percent margins and 100k take home in the envelope!

Good Luck
C

___________

This is turning into an interesting thread with two subjects emerging, pins and American's eagerness to send dollars over seas.

I watch Shark Tank and Dragon’s Den too, I have learned a lot about how to approach investors and what they are looking for in opportunity and return.

I would like to clarify, that I actually pay more for parts made in the USA, instead of having them made for less in China. I am not one to take a foreign made item and stamp a Made in the USA label on it.

It is disheartening when I hear how casually people dismiss the significance of sending money over seas instead of supporting US companies in country.

Regarding a properly designed cutter, to clarify, I am not suggesting a crutch for a poor cutter design, I am however looking at a potential failure mode given the cutter’s location, and the reported occasions that the cutter did not completely cut the loop.

The challenge is really the loop material, as it is gummy. If it was brittle it would shier before it would smear so to speak, but the soft stretchy material that the loop is made from will squish and smear as apposed to sheering. From my understanding of the Cypres story, that they ended up having to design their own cutter because no one would make one for them. From my conversations with cutter manufacturers, they have a standard cutter design basically that they match with different charges to vary cutting force. These cutters are mainly designed around firmer cables, wires, or lines, so when you try to cut the softer, stretcher, loop material, sometimes the design does not have enough head room so to speak, and the line is not cut completely, or, portions of the line can get smeared and pinched between the piston and cylinder.

Small variations in the loop material can have great affects on the cutters ability to cleanly cut the loop. I am trying very hard to not say one company’s design is better than the other, but rather discuses the considerations that relate to the process of cutting the loop.

Every time I read in a thread the question, “did it cut the loop completely?” I get chills from the idea that someone’s reserve could have been locked shut, preventing the jumper from being able to deploy their reserve them selves. I had a couple of thoughts on a cutter that would remain passive, (allowing manual reserve deployment), in the event the loop was not completely cut, for what ever reason, (damage from packing power tools, loop material variation, or cutter design), that the jumper would still be able to manually deploy the reserve. Now, it could be argued that I am wasting my time addressing a non problem, and that’s fine.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 7:46 AM
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I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 15, 2013, 8:58 AM
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In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

Risky how? Has it helped you learn what you wanted to learn? Is the feedback helpful or not? It's far from a "scientific sample" or rigorous market research, but you've received a variety of opinions and the discourse has stayed fairly respectful. I'm not sure you could/should expect much more on an open forum.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:11 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

Risky how? Has it helped you learn what you wanted to learn? Is the feedback helpful or not? It's far from a "scientific sample" or rigorous market research, but you've received a variety of opinions and the discourse has stayed fairly respectful. I'm not sure you could/should expect much more on an open forum.

Smile

Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

On the other hand Cypres isn't listed, soo sorry...

On the other hand the folks at cypres in Ohio are top notch and have always provided great phone support!

C


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:23 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Two thoughts.

1) We have moderators on this site. I'm pretty sure if they thought I was "hijacking" a thread vs. answering a question directly, they'd let me know.

2) I have no idea what your point is.

Have a nice day. Smile


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:26 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Please see the following or read the stickey,...

http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread
On the other hand Cypres isn't listed, soo sorry...

On the other hand the folks at cypres in Ohio are top notch and have always provided great phone support!

C
Maid it cricky fer ya.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:44 AM
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Once again reading the posts in the thread is alwys a good idea before posting. Smile

[Hint: he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg. Is the link you put up relevant to that?]


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:50 AM
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In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

I am responding to the above comment about "communicate directly...with the manufacturer,"

jesheee Tongue "I love you guys,...can't we all get along,"

The point being the manufacturers communicate directly on a daily basis, if you had read the stickey you would see a rather large list, communicating with the vendors and manufacturers is not an experiment as df8m1 is asking and if he had read the stickey he or it would know that the manufacturers are very, veery cummunicative! Thanks for pointing out my miscommunication. You don't need to point out that I have trouble spelling,...it's these blasted small buttoms and my fat fingers.
C


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 10:54 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Once again reading the posts in the thread is alwys a good idea before posting. Smile

[Hint: he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg. Is the link you put up relevant to that?]

I will decide if this thread has been hijacked or not, and it's all good. The term risky relates to offending someone or getting into an argument of some sort. I can see how this could become a PR nightmare, as there are a lot of personalities out there that live to stir the pot.

I think this thread does represent a some what realistic representation of the market. Looking at how many people have read this thread, and how many have posted as well as what they posted says a lot. Given the views and very few comments challenging other comments, I am led to think that the viewers either agree or don’t disagree enough to comment otherwise. As such, it is clear to me that jumpers are ok with one or two AAD manufacturers to choose from, and really do not care where their equipment comes from. Not relating to a quality issue but rather an economic philosophy.

Now I know this is not a proper market pole, but it is enough for me to be confident when I speak to my investors that the sport market is saturated, for lack of a better term, and thus too great of a financial risk.


“ he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg.”

That statement is both correct and not, Yes, I am exploring the market to evaluate interest in another AAD option, however, my intentions to build an AAD for the sport market were tied to the market interest I was exploring, and as stated above, I don’t see the market interest to justify the risk in the sport market.


Edit notes:

I spoke with a very good friend who thought I should clarify some information that I may have not worded exact enough and that may lead some to a different conclusion than I had intended.

Regarding the decision to move the cutter from bottom to the top, that was a decision made my the individual container manufacturers and not the AAD manufacturers, also, not all container manufacturers moved the cutter to the top, some still locate the cutter on the bottom.


Regarding the reserve pin strength, I personally would be happier with a stronger reserve pin that is designed for use with the 0 grommet.


(This post was edited by df8m1 on Jan 15, 2013, 11:11 AM)


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:06 AM
Post #34 of 60 (1475 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Please see the following or read the stickey,...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

On the other hand Cypres isn't listed, soo sorry...

C

Cypres is the name of a product made by Airtec GmbH - airtecjuergen - Juergen Sennert. They are third from the top of the list your so eloquently referenced, SSK is the USA service center for Airteck.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 15, 2013, 11:27 AM
Post #35 of 60 (1465 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Once again a search before hijacking the thread is alwys a good idea. Smile

Please see the following or read the stickey,...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1040487;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Once again reading the posts in the thread is alwys a good idea before posting. Smile

[Hint: he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg. Is the link you put up relevant to that?]

I will decide if this thread has been hijacked or not, and it's all good. The term risky relates to offending someone or getting into an argument of some sort. I can see how this could become a PR nightmare, as there are a lot of personalities out there that live to stir the pot.

I think this thread does represent a some what realistic representation of the market. Looking at how many people have read this thread, and how many have posted as well as what they posted says a lot. Given the views and very few comments challenging other comments, I am led to think that the viewers either agree or don’t disagree enough to comment otherwise. As such, it is clear to me that jumpers are ok with one or two AAD manufacturers to choose from, and really do not care where their equipment comes from. Not relating to a quality issue but rather an economic philosophy.

Now I know this is not a proper market pole, but it is enough for me to be confident when I speak to my investors that the sport market is saturated, for lack of a better term, and thus too great of a financial risk.


“ he is exploring the market for a new AAD that he intends to mfg.”

That statement is both correct and not, Yes, I am exploring the market to evaluate interest in another AAD option, however, my intentions to build an AAD for the sport market were tied to the market interest I was exploring, and as stated above, I don’t see the market interest to justify the risk in the sport market.


Edit notes:

I spoke with a very good friend who thought I should clarify some information that I may have not worded exact enough and that may lead some to a different conclusion than I had intended.

Regarding the decision to move the cutter from bottom to the top, that was a decision made my the individual container manufacturers and not the AAD manufacturers, also, not all container manufacturers moved the cutter to the top, some still locate the cutter on the bottom.


Regarding the reserve pin strength, I personally would be happier with a stronger reserve pin that is designed for use with the 0 grommet.

I'd be happy to see more options in the AAD market. I'll likely not select one purely based on price or location of manufacture. I may be in the minority but I have no issues with scheduled maint for these things. I think it's perfectly acceptable and can catch problems that a POST may or may not be able to. In the case of CYPRES I would like to see a longer lifetime.

Agree with your comments on preferring a bottom mounted cutter for the reasons you identified. I'm not sure the market is saturated so much as there is (with good reason) trepidation with newer units. My current rig has a bottom mount cutter so I feel like I can accept more risk. If I had a rig that locates the cutter on top of the reserve I don’t have that luxury.


adamUK  (C 104423)

Jan 15, 2013, 12:31 PM
Post #36 of 60 (1441 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't necessarily think the sport market is saturated. However if you came to market with a 'me too' product which was little different from the current offerings then I'd be surprised if you got many sales. Simply put: cypress has a proven track record and a new device does not.

However, if yours was better in some way and that improvement was valued by jumpers then I'm sure you'd get takers (I'm thinking here of Skyhook vs RSL as an example).

So really it all boils down to how better your product will be vs the others.

Good luck! SmileSmileSmile


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 3:12 PM
Post #37 of 60 (1398 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I also thought this tread could be an experiment to see if it is possible for a manufacturer to communicate directly with the jumpers. I have been told several times not to try it, too risky they say.

Are they correct?

Risky how? Has it helped you learn what you wanted to learn? Is the feedback helpful or not? It's far from a "scientific sample" or rigorous market research, but you've received a variety of opinions and the discourse has stayed fairly respectful. I'm not sure you could/should expect much more on an open forum.

SPEAKING ABOUT MANUFACTURER'S:

We had some questions and concerns and,... paraphrasing NWFlyer somewhat regarding the subject of what might be: "Too Risky," and or what we can expect or should expect from our manufacturers the following should help understand and help to answere your question:

This morning some of us had a question that we posted to this web site. This evening at around 5 pm we recived an answere, from the manufacturer! As NWFlyer points out Wink, so to speak: nothing ventured, nothing gained. You needent have to experiment to see just how responsive some of these manufacturers can be! So I would do as she suggests.

The following link/post is UPT responding to "jumpers," on the same day, which is generally typical of this forum:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3656871;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I don't mean to single out any vendor over another, generally they all respond, if they are aware of the concern. Nor do I, or am I reccommending that this web site be used instead of a direct contact. Most manufacturers in this buisness are aware that their customers are a very demanding bunch. And they, at least in my experience are more than willing to serve as best they can! And as you have asked initally this is an American company, not just an overseas sales office, many as I do factor this in in our purchasing decisions!
C

NWFlyer (Krisanne) Smile , is I belive, pointing out a kind of a limit regarding what "you could/should" expect on an open forum, I am not as kind as she. I will point out the Risk any manufacturer takes by not communicating directly with jumpers. Skydiving is for the most part a small community. We know where our equipment is manufactured and the fact that we don't have an American AAD has not gone unnoticed. I suspect our cousins across the pond think about this from time to time. Perhaps a better example are the jumpsuits on ebay that are made in china. I'm sure they sell a bunch. But I know many that are very vocal about buying American! And I know many more that have turned up their noses at the lower cost ebay promises in favor of supporting our Country.
C


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:03 PM
Post #38 of 60 (1381 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:


SPEAKING ABOUT MANUFACTURER'S:


This morning some of us had a question that we posted to this web site. This evening at around 5 pm we recived an answere, from the manufacturer! As NWFlyer points out Wink, so to speak: nothing ventured, nothing gained. You needent have to experiment to see just how responsive some of these manufacturers can be!

C

I will attempt to approach this from a different direction using the above example as a reference.

Unlike the above description of a manufacturer answering a question posted by a jumper, this thread began with an open ended question from a manufacturer to jumpers regarding an opinion based subject about, if there is a demand for an additional AAD on the market, and, if it being made in the USA would have any market advantage.

This opens up to door to passionate points of view that can be considered as bias by others and to be blunt, start a pissing contest.

There are Cypres people, and Vigil people, that will argue to the death that one is better than the other, or some such thing, I am pleased that has not been the case... yet any way lol.

The idea of manufacturers answering specific questions is common sense, opening up a debate with the masses on the other hand has the potential for all kinds of issues, such as this argument it's self. No two people interpret information the same, and as such, there is always someone who gets their shorts in a bunch over something that has nothing really to do with anything, especially anything they are directly involved in.

It is obvious that I worded my statement poorly, and that resulted in an unintentional interpretation that you are reacting to, and this undoubtedly could go on for years, and that, from my point of view, supports my statement regarding the possible risk involved in such a “taking of a chance” so to speak.

In an effort to end this tangent, I will thank you for pointing out my poorly worded thought, you have avenged those of which I may have unintentionally impugned, and for that potential, I sincerely apologize. Wink


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 4:30 PM
Post #39 of 60 (1372 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Winston Churchill: Don't ever,... ever, quit." Err, I think he said that...

Don't apologize...and I don't see where you worded anything poorly...

Welcome to skydiving! Smile


C


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 15, 2013, 6:48 PM
Post #40 of 60 (1351 views)
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Re: [GobbleGobble] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

[replyI'd be happy to see more options in the AAD market. I'll likely not select one purely based on price or location of manufacture. I may be in the minority but I have no issues with scheduled maint for these things. I think it's perfectly acceptable and can catch problems that a POST may or may not be able to. In the case of CYPRES I would like to see a longer lifetime.

Agree with your comments on preferring a bottom mounted cutter for the reasons you identified. I'm not sure the market is saturated so much as there is (with good reason) trepidation with newer units. My current rig has a bottom mount cutter so I feel like I can accept more risk. If I had a rig that locates the cutter on top of the reserve I don’t have that luxury.
An annual maintenance and a lifespan try to insure (as much as is possible), that the units in operation, are operating as designed, and to head off the eventual failure of the unit due to what ever. My TV was 4 years old and one day half the screen went black, the next day it was fine. Then two months later, half the screen went black again, and it was not that old.

Circuit boards can crack, trances can crack from heating and cooling, solder joints can crack etc. I have repaired automotive electronics that stop working just by resoldering everything on the board. With a micro scope, if u know what you are looking for, you can see cracks in the solder that make an brake depending on temperature.

Additionally, the baro transducers have a membrane that flexes as barometric pressure changes, and the data sheets usually will have a drift over time speck as the membrane ages and it’s flexibility changes. Now usually this drift is minimal, but it is possible to have some drift beyond the voltage reference’s ability to bring it back with in range when it is in for service, so it would have to be retired.

Even the accelerometers can drift a bit over time and use. It is important to make sure all the instruments are indicating properly, because the software executes based on where it “thinks” it is.


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 17, 2013, 9:13 AM
Post #41 of 60 (1260 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
[replyI'd be happy to see more options in the AAD market. I'll likely not select one purely based on price or location of manufacture. I may be in the minority but I have no issues with scheduled maint for these things. I think it's perfectly acceptable and can catch problems that a POST may or may not be able to. In the case of CYPRES I would like to see a longer lifetime.

Agree with your comments on preferring a bottom mounted cutter for the reasons you identified. I'm not sure the market is saturated so much as there is (with good reason) trepidation with newer units. My current rig has a bottom mount cutter so I feel like I can accept more risk. If I had a rig that locates the cutter on top of the reserve I don’t have that luxury.

An annual maintenance and a lifespan try to insure (as much as is possible), that the units in operation, are operating as designed, and to head off the eventual failure of the unit due to what ever. My TV was 4 years old and one day half the screen went black, the next day it was fine. Then two months later, half the screen went black again, and it was not that old.

Circuit boards can crack, trances can crack from heating and cooling, solder joints can crack etc. I have repaired automotive electronics that stop working just by resoldering everything on the board. With a micro scope, if u know what you are looking for, you can see cracks in the solder that make an brake depending on temperature.

Additionally, the baro transducers have a membrane that flexes as barometric pressure changes, and the data sheets usually will have a drift over time speck as the membrane ages and it’s flexibility changes. Now usually this drift is minimal, but it is possible to have some drift beyond the voltage reference’s ability to bring it back with in range when it is in for service, so it would have to be retired.

Even the accelerometers can drift a bit over time and use. It is important to make sure all the instruments are indicating properly, because the software executes based on where it “thinks” it is.
Yup! Sadly too many people go "durr" electronics should last forever and you'll should never have to touch a thing. MTBF can be quite long but nothing lasts forever.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 25, 2013, 10:03 AM
Post #42 of 60 (1159 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I am wondering how many jumpers factor in the cost of the annual checks over the life of an AAD, and add that to the initial purchase price when they are shopping for an AAD?


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:13 PM
Post #43 of 60 (1122 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

You might also want to consider the "Buy American Act."

For more information just ask any of the current manufacturers in DeLand, about component, subassembly , and fabric/material purchases/suppliers. The military and other organizations are the major purchasers for Cypres and Vigil,... to put it bluntly we don't need another AAD manufacturer from china.
C


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:32 PM
Post #44 of 60 (1108 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

Or we wouldn't trust AAD from China


GobbleGobble  (D 32887)

Jan 25, 2013, 4:50 PM
Post #45 of 60 (1102 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am wondering how many jumpers factor in the cost of the annual checks over the life of an AAD, and add that to the initial purchase price when they are shopping for an AAD?

I thought about it. Current cost on CYPRES maint seems reasonable to me. *shrug Wouldn't mind paying a little less up front though. (Initial cost+Maint 1+Maint 2)/12.5 is not bad for "insurance".


df8m1  (C 29633)

Jan 26, 2013, 10:37 AM
Post #46 of 60 (1033 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You might also want to consider the "Buy American Act."

For more information just ask any of the current manufacturers in DeLand, about component, subassembly , and fabric/material purchases/suppliers. The military and other organizations are the major purchasers for Cypres and Vigil,... to put it bluntly we don't need another AAD manufacturer from china.
C

China?? I am in Michigan, USA. I have been developing Military cargo AAD systems for several years now, and will be developing a manned unit this year, so I am familiar with the requirements materials and such.

I think most new jumpers have no idea about the annual servicing requirements when they are looking at making a purchase, they ask their instructors what they recommend, and then look for the best purchase price for that unit, not knowing that the recurring costs will add up over the life of the unit. Granted, they do not have many choices, so it really doesn’t matter I guess, as was said, it is the cost of insurance.

Looking at it from a marketing stand point, one could either include the majority of the maintance costs in the initial purchase price, lowering the post purchase costs, or keep the initial cost lower, and then spread the balance over the life of the unit, like financing it.

It is interesting to see that we have gone from, “it really doesn’t matter where it is made as long as it works”, to “nothing from China” lol. So it would seem to be more important that something not be made in China, than made in the USA,…. interesting.


nigel99  (D 1)

Jan 27, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #47 of 60 (952 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You might also want to consider the "Buy American Act."

For more information just ask any of the current manufacturers in DeLand, about component, subassembly , and fabric/material purchases/suppliers. The military and other organizations are the major purchasers for Cypres and Vigil,... to put it bluntly we don't need another AAD manufacturer from china.
C

So when did Germany and Belgium become US statesTongue I don't know the details of the buy American Act - but mentioning it in the same post as Cypres and Vigil is funnyLaugh


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 27, 2013, 6:57 PM
Post #48 of 60 (948 views)
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Re: [nigel99] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I know, I know,...

It might give an American Manufacturer just the leg up they need to take over the market!

C

"China?? I am in Michigan, USA. I have been developing Military cargo AAD systems for several years now, and will be developing a manned unit this year, so I am familiar with the requirements materials and such. "

Never said your in China, just trying to point out the buy American act for TSO' d equipment would give a big leg up to a domestic manuf..

Please also coorect me here if I am not correct,...
But don't most deployment systems, (Except the Strong Screeamer,) have at the heart of their actuators a Cypres unit? I mean that seems reason enough alone to manufacture a domestic unit? Wink


(This post was edited by ChrisD on Jan 27, 2013, 8:17 PM)


hackish  (No License)

Jan 28, 2013, 2:35 PM
Post #49 of 60 (875 views)
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Re: AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a neat idea but unfortunately skydivers are an emotional bunch. If you ever read one of the zillion I only jump this AAD because threads you will know this. The chance of failure of any of the AADs already on the market is so tiny you could mention it in fractions in a million jumps.

The first time there is a failure, even someone pressurizing a plane or setting the unit incorrectly you can expect your product to be thrown under the bus. The story will subsequently be retold with a variable rate of accuracy for years every time someone who purchased a different AAD wants to justify why theirs is better.

Periodic maintenance is a really good idea from a business point of view. You will have a good stream of income and as improvements come along and defects are found you can secretly switch out the faulty components. If I had to put bread on the table with AAD sales I'd want them coming back every 4 years for a check.

-Michael


ChrisD  (No License)

Feb 2, 2013, 10:04 AM
Post #50 of 60 (776 views)
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Re: [hackish] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's a neat idea but unfortunately skydivers are an emotional bunch. If you ever read one of the zillion I only jump this AAD because threads you will know this. The chance of failure of any of the AADs already on the market is so tiny you could mention it in fractions in a million jumps.

The first time there is a failure, even someone pressurizing a plane or setting the unit incorrectly you can expect your product to be thrown under the bus. The story will subsequently be retold with a variable rate of accuracy for years every time someone who purchased a different AAD wants to justify why theirs is better.

Periodic maintenance is a really good idea from a business point of view. You will have a good stream of income and as improvements come along and defects are found you can secretly switch out the faulty components. If I had to put bread on the table with AAD sales I'd want them coming back every 4 years for a check.

-Michael

I think the words you chose to use regarding "YOU CAN SECRETLY SWITCH OUT THE FAULTY COMPONENTS."

to be somewhat offensive!

Perhaps you didn't quite realize the full implications under the influence of whatever...of what you were saying...Wink

C


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Feb 2, 2013, 10:12 AM
Post #51 of 60 (672 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In the meantime:

http://www.m2aad.com/m2-aad

http://www.m2aad.com/.../new-upt-declaration


df8m1  (C 29633)

Feb 2, 2013, 1:03 PM
Post #52 of 60 (631 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread is open to all manufacturers to post information in, however, I do respectfully request that posters identify themselves and the manufacturer they represent or are promoting.

____________________

I had an interesting conversation with a friend last night about how to decide if it is worth the investment to introduce another widget to a market where there are already competing widgets.

He fancies himself as a business guy and was all for me making the investment to compete the AAD market, (he is not a jumper, but does invest in other markets). Even after the liability aspect, small market, yada yada, he was still insistent that it was the right move, no risk, no gain, he said. Well that was until I said that he would obviously be interested in covering the majority of the investment, as, this was a "no brainier".

Needless to say he quickly had an excuse why he couldn’t invest at this stage, and excused him self from the table. It is interesting to see the different attitudes regarding reoccurring maintance requirements, price point, etc, depending on a consumers perspective, or from an investment / manufacturer qualty control side.

Also, like a previous poster said, the market always has an eye out for a bus to through you under.

Regardless of weather or not I decide to “produce” an AAD for the Sport Market, I can always license the cutter to another manufacture if the design efforts show worth while results. I know of at least one off hand that needs a cutter…..


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Feb 2, 2013, 1:22 PM
Post #53 of 60 (625 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

With the latest AAD issue putting Cypres under the microscope it makes me wonder why someone would voluntarily subject themselves to the rants of skydivers complaining about an AAD not being perfect, service not being immediate, and since they paid for the device it should be perform perfectly and without flaw always and forever.

Sure you want this pain? Tongue


df8m1  (C 29633)

Feb 2, 2013, 1:36 PM
Post #54 of 60 (615 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With the latest AAD issue putting Cypres under the microscope it makes me wonder why someone would voluntarily subject themselves to the rants of skydivers complaining about an AAD not being perfect, service not being immediate, and since they paid for the device it should be perform perfectly and without flaw always and forever.

Sure you want this pain? Tongue

Why?? MONEY... “If” the market can support the return requirement, then all the drawbacks with dealing with the public are compensated for.

It does however look like a licensing deal with another manufacturer would be a better business decision. There is another thread with a pole for the best AAD and that also supports my interpretation of the posts in this thread.

So to answer your second question; No, I don’t think there is enough gain to for the pain. Wink


Pacific

Feb 2, 2013, 11:33 PM
Post #55 of 60 (557 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am asking, "what if you had the option of an AAD, (comparable in performance and options to current AADs), that was made in the USA?" Would you be more inclined to "buy American"?.

Yes, I would. My rig & canopies were made in the USA by USA companies...giving me a good/proud feeling. But that's not entirely why I bought them. They had good products/reputations and I need these items to skydive. Price was also a factor.

I don't have an AAD, don't need one to skydive [in USA], and I feel that they are all overpriced. But if you design a good AAD, have the Chinese make it, charge $500.......I'll buy it.


Divalent  (C 40494)

Feb 4, 2013, 7:35 PM
Post #56 of 60 (474 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

The complexity of an AAD seems to be mostly in the control electonics. I'd worry that a new player coming out of nowhere with a new AAD might not have the experience to insure reliability in that part of the system. If you think you have a better cutter design (cheaper, more reliable, etc), you might try seeing if a company that has experience with the control electronics side would be interested.

For example, Argus: they went of of business mostly because their cutter suffered from enough catastrophic (or near catastrophic) failures that they lost the confidence of the container mfgs and the buying public. Their electronics were (IIRC) otherwise as reasonably good as the competition (more or less). Maybe a better cutter would induce them to reenter the market. They at least have an established name (albeit tarnished at bit, but I'd think more valuable than say, "df8m1" in the AAD marketplace), and had enough units in service for long enough time that there would be some confidence that their control electronics won't quickly reveal themselves to be problematic.


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 4, 2013, 9:30 PM
Post #57 of 60 (463 views)
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Re: [Divalent] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The complexity of an AAD seems to be mostly in the control electonics. I'd worry that a new player coming out of nowhere with a new AAD might not have the experience to insure reliability in that part of the system. If you think you have a better cutter design (cheaper, more reliable, etc), you might try seeing if a company that has experience with the control electronics side would be interested.

For example, Argus: they went of of business mostly because their cutter suffered from enough catastrophic (or near catastrophic) failures that they lost the confidence of the container mfgs and the buying public. Their electronics were (IIRC) otherwise as reasonably good as the competition (more or less). Maybe a better cutter would induce them to reenter the market. They at least have an established name (albeit tarnished at bit, but I'd think more valuable than say, "df8m1" in the AAD marketplace), and had enough units in service for long enough time that there would be some confidence that their control electronics won't quickly reveal themselves to be problematic.

Peter, I agree that it is the software and electronics that are most likely to fail.

That said, if someone came into the market with a Class 3 medical device background, or specific areas of safety critical design in a mainstream regulated industry, or specific aspects of military design (not all military design is hi-reliability).

Personal experience is that everyone is an expert UNTIL they have to actually do it. Then they discover all the tradeoffs and just how difficult it actually is.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Feb 5, 2013, 10:11 AM
Post #58 of 60 (394 views)
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Re: [nigel99] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The complexity of an AAD seems to be mostly in the control electonics. I'd worry that a new player coming out of nowhere with a new AAD might not have the experience to insure reliability in that part of the system. If you think you have a better cutter design (cheaper, more reliable, etc), you might try seeing if a company that has experience with the control electronics side would be interested.

For example, Argus: they went of of business mostly because their cutter suffered from enough catastrophic (or near catastrophic) failures that they lost the confidence of the container mfgs and the buying public. Their electronics were (IIRC) otherwise as reasonably good as the competition (more or less). Maybe a better cutter would induce them to reenter the market. They at least have an established name (albeit tarnished at bit, but I'd think more valuable than say, "df8m1" in the AAD marketplace), and had enough units in service for long enough time that there would be some confidence that their control electronics won't quickly reveal themselves to be problematic.

Peter, I agree that it is the software and electronics that are most likely to fail.

That said, if someone came into the market with a Class 3 medical device background, or specific areas of safety critical design in a mainstream regulated industry, or specific aspects of military design (not all military design is hi-reliability).

Personal experience is that everyone is an expert UNTIL they have to actually do it. Then they discover all the tradeoffs and just how difficult it actually is.

Both of the above posts make good points, and the quality systems that address those concerns, account for a large portion of the cost to produce an AAD. The best designed board can fall victim to a poor production process, and if the quality control and validation process is not up to the challenge, some of those low quality boards could make it to theater.

There are advantages for designing an AAD now as apposed to 20 years ago, as, circuit board design is not as new as it was then, and, with the introduction of safety systems like airbag systems in cars, that level of hardware safety feature design, as well as the approach to safety system software design, are standard concepts that are used on all the time, and the production houses that are capable of that high level quality production and validation are plentiful. However, that level of quality and the extensive validation systems that each AAD has to, (should), go through is very time consuming, and that equates into cost, but that is the cost for a quality product.

It would take at least 40 hours of validation testing for each unit prior to it being shipped, (that includes climate controlled vacuum chambers, vibratory cycles at different temperatures with altitude cycles, static discharge, RF, etc.), and that requires specialized test equipment and techs to over see the process, and that = cost that has to be carried by the product.

If the new AAD can only capture 10% or less of the market, then that results in each AAD costing more to cover the costs of development and production. This is where I see, from a business stand point, there is not enough market potential to justify introducing an AAD to the Sport Market.

Also, any military unit that involves a service member, either directly or indirectly, is required to be of the highest quality and reliability. If it is thought that making an AAD for the Sport Market is tuff, can you imagine designing one for the USA Military!? That has been our primary focus, only looking at if it would be profitable to reconfigure one of our military units for the Sport Market. Airtec has the majority of the Sport market solidly locked up to the point where it does not make sense to try to brake in.

As for any cutter designs that we have for our military units, we would be open to talk with other AAD manufactures about a licensing deal, however I am not expecting to get any interest.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Feb 6, 2013, 11:59 AM
Post #59 of 60 (329 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

To my genuine surprise, I have been contacted by a couple of people asking if we had any cutters, or will be producing and selling cutters.

We will be building and testing cutters in house during the R&D phase, and the production process will include X-Ray inspection, as Airtec, and our own manufacturer for our military cutters use, as part of their quality control process.

We will be building cutters in house continually for internal use and continued testing of our AAD systems, so once we are happy with a cutter design, it is not out of the question that we could produce cutters for an end user if the numbers made sense. 100% reliability is a must first.

Once we are happy with a cutter design, we will consider putting the cutter through the TS-112 v1.0 test protocol in cooperation with container manufacturers, to obtain approval for our cutter with their container configuration. However, we will have to balance the cost of such a process against the potential return, as with out an AAD to market, it will be difficult to justify the cost for each container test.

We welcome requests and are open to talk about any potential applications that an approved cutter can benefit. I would like to have something to show at PIA, however we have a lot going on at the present, and the paperwork needs to be in place prior to any showing or demonstration.

I am open to questions from everyone, however, again, I respectfully request that anyone associated with a manufacturer of any kind identify themselves accordingly.


df8m1  (C 29633)

Feb 11, 2013, 11:53 AM
Post #60 of 60 (252 views)
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Re: [df8m1] AAD Market / Competition [In reply to] Can't Post

I have received a good amount of positive response privately about designing a cutter and having it approved by the container manufacturers.

The good thing is that the pinched loop failure with a cylindrical cutter can be induced pretty consistently, so the new cutters can be put in the same configuration to see if the new design allows a clean separation of the loop every time.

I think this is a worth while direction, I think there is something to he said for a part that is designed by someone who not only understands the significance of its operation, but will be putting it on their own back as well.



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