Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Which is more likely to save your life?

 


Poll: Which is more likely to save your life?
RSL 69 / 46%
AAD 80 / 54%
149 total votes
 
airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 7, 2013, 7:41 PM
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Which is more likely to save your life? Can't Post

Haven't known anyone an AAD would have saved. Plenty who cut away and deployed low or not at all.


kallend  (D 23151)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:23 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haven't known anyone an AAD would have saved. Plenty who cut away and deployed low or not at all.

Shouldn't "AR15" and "Boobies" be options?


BKW82  (A License)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:35 PM
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Re: [kallend] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

And certainly "condoms" should be up there as well.


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Jan 7, 2013, 8:58 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I DO know several people who are alive only because of their AADs. (Head down 4-way with 4 AAD fires. As I recollect, there were 2 with two-out and 2 with only reserve out.)

If we changed the question to which is more efficient in terms of lives saved per dollar spent.... my guess is that the RSL wins by a wide margin.


piisfish

Jan 8, 2013, 12:03 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I voted AAD.


Rover  (D 241)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:06 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Left hand.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 8, 2013, 1:50 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day. This wouldn't work the other way around. Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jan 8, 2013, 6:09 AM
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is wrong headed thinking. There is a several hundred foot window where a Cypres (I'd have to look up Vigil) will not help. You have to fall far enough to reach the activation speed AND not get below the 'do not fire' altitude (160' without looking, may be wrong) An RSL is likely to aid in quicker deployment no matter the altitude. Of course too low is too low.

And the poll is wrong headed. RSL's are standard on most gear. Hook the damn thing up! (with some reasonable situational exceptions). An AAD requires significant additional investment, which people either choose to justify (or are required to by their DZ/country) or not.

I do know several folks that would be dead without their AAD's. At a small Cessna DZ. And neither is going to help with a cutaway that is just too low for any reserve to open.

Modern AAD's have changed skydiving. Before AAD's worn by experienced jumpers skydiving was one of the few situations where if you didn't take a POSITIVE action you would die. Driving down a highway and stop steering/braking you may not die.. etc. This 'thrill' and self reliance was part of the allure of skydiving. Now many newbies (defined as anyone starting after 1993Wink) won't get out of an airplane without an AAD and many AFF trained jumpers are scared to get out below 5000'. That's okay, but different. Skydiving is different. Better? Maybe, I've been to fewer funerals than I would have. But different.

Frankly part of me was glad to here about the 3000' wing suit rodeo with several cypres fires. It was good to know that some skydivers were still crazyCool As a novice at my DZ pre cypres days I watched an eight way bust 1000'. Everyone lived, swore they'd never to that again, would get audibles, etc. Seven of he same folks did it again two weeks later.ShockedTongue


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 8, 2013, 6:54 AM
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 8, 2013, 7:01 AM
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

BOTH.


jimmytavino  (A 3914)

Jan 8, 2013, 8:10 AM
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.


if you have a mal.Shocked you gotta cut it away.....and the sooner the better...Unimpressed
BUT you also Have to PULL the reserve handle...NOW!!!!! RSL or not,, imho
and aad or not...
in these 3-4 cases was the reserve handle pulled in any of them??? all of them ?? None of them???

bsbd


jmy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 8, 2013, 9:08 AM
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Re: [jimmytavino] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

>in these 3-4 cases was the reserve handle pulled in any of them??? all of them ?? None of them???

None of them AFAIK.

I am reminded of Rick Horn's cutaway where he could not find his reserve handle. This was a guy whose career was teaching instructors how to teach students, and must have done thousands of cutaway pulls (and cutaway trainings) during his lifetime. Fortunately he had an RSL and thus lived to tell his story.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:40 AM
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:41 AM
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.

The RSL didn't fail. It wasn't even present.
Crazy

...and you can't really say the AAD failed either.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 8, 2013, 9:44 AM)


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 8, 2013, 12:59 PM
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Re: [piisfish] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I voted AAD.

you would ;)

ETA RSL's are standard equipment on most new rigs?


(This post was edited by airdvr on Jan 8, 2013, 1:14 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:26 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Haven't known anyone an AAD would have saved

I used to know several people that an AAD would have saved - including a tandem pair (way back when Bill Booth said that a well trained and current TI was the best AAD for a tandem pair - yes, the TI was well trained and current). A few more that an RSL would have saved - including a camera flier.

The comparison isn't really valid, imho. RSL's and AAD's are designed to operate in completely different circumstances. An AAD will save my ass if I forget to pull (or, less likely, someone kicks me in the head) - an RSL won't do that. An RSL will save my ass if I cutaway and forget to (or can't) deploy the reserve in time - an AAD won't do that (assuming of course, that I'm not stupid high when I cutaway).


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:36 AM
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Re: [skybytch] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

The question isn't which one would save you. Which situation are you more likely to find yourself in? Solid numbers are difficult to find to make the point. Clearly so far more people think they would go in without pulling anything vs. those who think they'll have a mal they need to cut away.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
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Jan 9, 2013, 8:26 AM
Post #18 of 61 (3469 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

It shouldn't be too difficult to find the number of no-pull fatalities and compare to known AAD saves.
Finding the number of cutaway pulls with RSL would be difficult to do.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 9, 2013, 8:56 AM
Post #19 of 61 (3446 views)
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>AAD, if my RSL fails, my AAD could still save the day.

Not really. I can think of 3-4 people who cut away around 1000 feet with an AAD but no RSL; they went in.


Could save the day. If I chop my main and my RSL doesn't work (for whatever reason, lets say it disconnected) and I don't pull my reserve handle, for whatever reason... Then there's a good chance my AAD will cut the reserve loop when the right parameters are met.

If my AAD fails, my RLS could save the day, but only in case of a successful chop (risers+RSL leave). If there's no main out, then the RSL won't do a thing.
I didn't mean to say that my AAD will 100% do the trick, but there's a significant chance that it will ;)


In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!

What do you find scare? The fact that my RSL wouldn't have made a difference, or my way of thinking?

In reply to:
This is wrong headed thinking. There is a several hundred foot window where a Cypres (I'd have to look up Vigil) will not help. You have to fall far enough to reach the activation speed AND not get below the 'do not fire' altitude (160' without looking, may be wrong) An RSL is likely to aid in quicker deployment no matter the altitude. Of course too low is too low.

Cypres 2 expert will fire at 750' if the vertical speed is 35> m/s. If chopped below this altitude, the cypres will fire when the chop is detected. The unit will disengage from 140 ft and below, where cutting the reserve loop will definitely not make a difference anymore.


(This post was edited by DvK on Jan 9, 2013, 9:03 AM)


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 9, 2013, 9:15 AM
Post #20 of 61 (3427 views)
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

>Could save the day. If I chop my main and my RSL doesn't work (for whatever
>reason, lets say it disconnected) and I don't pull my reserve handle, for whatever
>reason... Then there's a good chance my AAD will cut the reserve loop when the right
>parameters are met.

Agreed. If, for example, you cut away at 2500 feet, then your AAD stands an excellent chance of saving you.

Unfortunately, low cutaways are generally the times that an RSL will save you - and under those conditions an AAD won't.

>If my AAD fails, my RLS could save the day

That's an odd statement since they are two very different things. It's like saying "if my main fails my flotation gear could save the day." Literally true in some situations but they're really not replacements for each other.

>Cypres 2 expert will fire at 750' if the vertical speed is 35> m/s. If chopped below
>this altitude, the cypres will fire when the chop is detected.

It definitely will not; it has to reach firing speed first. (And that's MEASURED speed not ACTUAL speed.)


Baksteen  (C 708753)

Jan 9, 2013, 9:18 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

AAD.
I haven't got an RSL.Angelic


dthames  (B 37674)

Jan 9, 2013, 6:59 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some time ago I saw a video where a guy cut away and his reserve container failed to open even after the pin was pulled. When the AAD fired, the container opened. After landing the fellow was on his knees, face the the ground, panting, trying to collect himself.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:13 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

AAD.

the RSL takes an action to work, the AAD does not.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:24 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!
Sounds like he had to pull his reserve a couple of times for total malfunctions. If that's correct, that's not very scary.

Or am I missing something.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 10, 2013, 2:32 AM
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Re: [billvon] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Could save the day. If I chop my main and my RSL doesn't work (for whatever
>reason, lets say it disconnected) and I don't pull my reserve handle, for whatever
>reason... Then there's a good chance my AAD will cut the reserve loop when the right
>parameters are met.

Agreed. If, for example, you cut away at 2500 feet, then your AAD stands an excellent chance of saving you.

Unfortunately, low cutaways are generally the times that an RSL will save you - and under those conditions an AAD won't.

>If my AAD fails, my RLS could save the day

That's an odd statement since they are two very different things. It's like saying "if my main fails my flotation gear could save the day." Literally true in some situations but they're really not replacements for each other.

>Cypres 2 expert will fire at 750' if the vertical speed is 35> m/s. If chopped below
>this altitude, the cypres will fire when the chop is detected.

It definitely will not; it has to reach firing speed first. (And that's MEASURED speed not ACTUAL speed.)[/reply]

That's what I meant, should pick my words carefully, not so good at that, especially in my non-native language and especially over the internet : )

I also agree that you can't really compare or choose between the 2 of these (RSL vs AAD) , it both being completely different things with different tasks, kinda makes this an invalid discussion to begin with


piisfish

Jan 10, 2013, 2:54 AM
Post #26 of 61 (943 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
AAD.

the RSL takes an action to work, the AAD does not.
well technically you still have to turn it on, but I understand your point Tongue


MikeJD  (D 10605)

Jan 10, 2013, 3:10 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

If I had to choose between the two, I'd want an AAD over an RSL - so I guess that answers the question for me.

But I'd give up both before I had to jump without an audible altimeter, since generally speaking it's lack of altitude awareness that makes the other two more likely to be needed. Just look at the ratio of AAD 'saves' that are caused by people simply going too low.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:16 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.

THAT is scary!
Sounds like he had to pull his reserve a couple of times for total malfunctions. If that's correct, that's not very scary.

Or am I missing something.

I was thinking about partials that the only time a connected RSL would have "done nothing" is when he had to deploy the reserve without a clean breakaway......Horseshoe, maybe? Entanglement? Sour main under 1K? Etc?
All scary to me.


(This post was edited by popsjumper on Jan 10, 2013, 8:20 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:18 AM
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Re: [piisfish] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
AAD.

the RSL takes an action to work, the AAD does not.
well technically you still have to turn it on, but I understand your point Tongue

I give her a little foreplay action before every jump and she stays turned on.
LaughLaugh


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:27 AM
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.
Okay, Pops and I want to know, what were these circumstances?

Was it just a total malfunction or something crazy?

I've jumped with and without AAD's, with and without RSL's. I prefer to have both. Smile


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:46 AM
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I could have worded the question better, but that would have required more of a thought process than I possessed at the time.

Over the course of all the jumps you ever make, do you think you'd be more likely to be placed in a situation where you would need an AAD or an RSL?


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:52 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could have worded the question better, but that would have required more of a thought process than I possessed at the time.

Over the course of all the jumps you ever make, do you think you'd be more likely to be placed in a situation where you would need an AAD or an RSL?


IF i thought before hand that I would NEED either I would take a hard look at my involvement in the sport...

I have neither and never have on my personal rigs, but with more & more DZ's requiring an AAD I'm actually about to get one.
Unimpressed


chuteless  (D 41)

Jan 10, 2013, 8:53 AM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am amazed at the number of posts these days that are about someone wanting to do something extra to save his/her life.

If you can't live with the dangers of the sport, take up table tennis.

There are inherent dangers in the sport..,..live or die with them, but stop griping about how can I do something ( usually unrealistic ) to make sure I dont die.

Stop the worry and enjoy skydiving or get into something else .


airdvr  (D 10977)

Jan 10, 2013, 9:01 AM
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Re: [chuteless] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill, you should know by now that you're not allowed to say things like that anymore. Someone's feelings might get hurt. Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 10, 2013, 11:08 AM
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In reply to:
I am amazed at the number of posts these days that are about someone wanting to do something extra to save his/her life.

If you can't live with the dangers of the sport, take up table tennis.

There are inherent dangers in the sport..,..live or die with them, but stop griping about how can I do something ( usually unrealistic ) to make sure I dont die.

Stop the worry and enjoy skydiving or get into something else .


That coming from a guy that use to throw the parachute out of the plane THEN dive after it!

...Really makes me long for the days when actually just having a parachute WITH you was being safe & conservative!!

CoolCool


fcajump  (D 15598)

Jan 10, 2013, 11:43 AM
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Re: [MikeJD] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I had to choose between the two, I'd want an AAD over an RSL - so I guess that answers the question for me.

But I'd give up both before I had to jump without an audible altimeter, since generally speaking it's lack of altitude awareness that makes the other two more likely to be needed. Just look at the ratio of AAD 'saves' that are caused by people simply going too low.

First Cypres fire I ever saw was someone who got used to listening for his audible... was focused on break-off/separation and listening... Finally looked down at 1k...

Between the two (three), I'd rather the one that gives me a chance to wake up when I get taken out by someone else's poor body-flying skills...

JW


jumpinjackflsh  (B 27757)

Jan 10, 2013, 12:01 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Airtwardo,

You always manage to answer the question that is on my mind before I ask it.

I just got back into the sport in late 2012 and had my Vector II checked for airworthiness, reserve repack, and main re-lined. I also had my Cypress pulled because it was eol.

Doing so, I contemplated the move and told myself, moving forward, I'll either replace it, or when I get my new rig, ensure I have one. One for the dz's now requiring them and two because they are promoted throughout the sport.

Early on in my first attempt, static line progression, second five second delay from 5500, I went into a roll/spin and lost altitude awareness trying to recover (damn stupid move). Long story short, I finally got "flat" as it seemed and pulled.
When I opened, I noticed pretty much instantly that I was low, 1,000 feet to be exact. The JM was apparently saying a little prayer to the inventor of the FXC at the time. Either it didn't work, or I pulled before it activated...

Either way, I made it and have many many times contemplated that jump.

As an engineer and self prescribed Mr. Fix it I grew up in a family of men ashamed to call someone in to fix anything from a hot water heater to their cars. Hence, I grew up with an appreciation and awareness of all things mechanical.

When entering skydiving, I became enamored of the systems and the evolution of the sport. I've read everything I can get my hands on and enjoy the elegant simplicity of the skydiving rig.

Obviously the evolution of containers and the devices on the market has done a lot to improve the reliability and safety of the sport, however I do tend to agree with Bill Cole regarding his post and whenever asked by whuffo friends etc... whether it's safe? I respond vehemently, no, of course not.

Aka, early on I stated, sure safer than driving on highway 270 every day in St. Louis... I learned over time though, and do feel, that it's still obviously inherently dangerous and a choice we make to experience something so unique.

That said, back to the evolution, Bill Booth and many others like him have invented some amazing things. The three ring system today, is standard, and notably changed the face of the sport.

Obviously RSL's have become near standard with everyone insisting on one and AAD's pretty much the same and if not in ALL rigs it appears it will be that way in the near future.

I have to ask though, why do you not have any on your rigs?

For me, I see it happening in the future but I can say I'm painfully aware that it's all me. Aka, throw the pilot, if shit goes bad, make the decision, pull red, pull silver, etc...

I'm comfortable with the way my system is rigged that my choices for action based upon the type of malfunction have to be executed in a timely fashion and correctly in order for me to survive. At the end of the day I know if I fail, well, it's pretty much a done deal. I also know when doing my check of three's and preparing to jump, what has to be right, to work. No added complexity.

So many conversations on here about the different scenarios where these devices add complications that can cause further problems, but at the same time, stories where an RSL or AAD did their jobs completely and saved someones ass.

Case in point, I've watched the Skyhook videos and read plenty about them and it's hard not to appreciate the design elements and the effectiveness that's been demonstrated.

Lastly, the ubiquity of them in the sport nowadays and the man that designed it, of course the guy who invented three rings...


Blues,


Jack


Premier wmw999  (D 6296)

Jan 10, 2013, 12:09 PM
Post #38 of 61 (806 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first got back into skydiving, I had the RSL taken off the rig I bought -- why on earth would I need that??? The rig had come with a Cypres, so I kept that.

A couple of years later, I put the RSL back on. I have no doubt that I'll pull the reserve if I need to, so I'm not worried about that. But in the interim a couple of experienced jumpers found themselves cutting away just a little too low to pull their reserves in time, for one reason or another. Neither of them was stupid about risk-taking normally.

I haven't ever needed my RSL -- even when I had a fairly low cutaway on a fast-diving Diablo, it was plenty high not to worry. But I figure that those other guys didn't think they'd have a problem with pulling the reserve, and that maybe I'm no better than they are.

So it's stupid insurance, nothing more, nothing less.

Wendy P.


sundevil777  (D License)

Jan 10, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could have worded the question better, but that would have required more of a thought process than I possessed at the time.

Over the course of all the jumps you ever make, do you think you'd be more likely to be placed in a situation where you would need an AAD or an RSL?

I've been on the receiving end of some significant collisions in freefall. One that was quite severe was a head to head knock. Other collisions not involving the head can also cause injuries that prevent a still conscious person being able to pull.

I've never had any trouble at all finding and pulling the reserve handle 4 times, so I definitely think an AAD is more likely to save my life. Not jumping with people that run into me would be nice.


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 10, 2013, 12:11 PM
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Re: [airtwardo] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
IF i thought before hand that I would NEED either I would take a hard look at my involvement in the sport...
Perfect answer. I'll say the same for me. Over a dozen mals over the years, various types, didn't need either. If my AAD ever fires, I'll do some real soul searching. . .

But not saying I'd quit.

If I could only have one, I'd stay with the AAD. Best thing to have if someone knocks you out.

Bill Cole is right. There are no guarantees in this sport. There's not a skydive you make that can't kill you. Keep that in mind as you make decisions in this sport and I think you have a chance of living longer.Smile


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 10, 2013, 12:55 PM
Post #41 of 61 (792 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

The point that continues to amaaaze me is that the death caused by not pulling the reserve, after a sucsessfull cutaway release, is fact!!!

How is this for a vision,...your running up to your comrade, who is in a pile on the ground, dead as a doornail,...the cutaway handle is no where to be found,...

YOU GET THE PICTURE? This is the documented fact!!!

But all of the (disconnect the) RSL discussions are hypothetical???

Somebody help me here, I JUST DON'T get it????


(O'h and pardon my spelling.)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 10, 2013, 3:26 PM
Post #42 of 61 (765 views)
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Re: [jumpinjackflsh] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to ask though, why do you not have any on your rigs?

In reply to:

There are a few reasons...

I don't use an RSL because I do some CReW and also jump a lot of demos.

In both case you 'may' not necessarily want your reserve coming out while in the bad neighborhood.

I actually had a cutaway a few years ago on a demo in Long Island that had there been an RSL activation I quite likely would have been opening right in front of another guy. I simply chopped, free-fell past him and opened below in uncongested air.

I train pretty hard on my gear & EP's...I have handles I can get to with no problem and have done so 14 times on my gear & 6 on Tandems. I understand the parameters I need to work within and I'm extremely vigilant regarding opening altitudes and reserve hard-decks.

I can't remember ever losing track of altitude and pulling lower than intended when I left the plane. . .not saying it 'can't happen', but maybe knowing I 'need' the extra second or two over someone using an RSL keeps my head in the game.

I remember back in my training when we had shot & a halfs with a bellywart, being constantly hammered with 'it's your last bullet so make it count' regarding reserve activation sequencing & stability. ~I guess there's still some of that left over because I really like having the piece of mind as I pull my knees in to sit up while firing plan B, that I've done everything I possibly can to insure a clean deployment.

Lastly ~ I certainly could hook up the RSL while making 'regular' sport jumps, but I prefer to jump with the same configuration for everything, less to think about.

As far as no AAD ~
I use to say it was hard to justify the cost, but that's probably bullshit. I spend lots on more frivolous stuff.

I think in all honesty I kinda like knowing when I leave the door it's ALL up to me...there's some raw purity there. It's an 'old school' thing I guess, it's definitely a personal choice and I'd never suggest someone else go without one.

It makes me think through what kind of jump I'm doing & who with. Leads to some conservative calls at times ~ and may be why I've never been injured in 38 years doing this.

All that being said, I'll probably have an AAD in one of my rigs in the next few months, there are a few places I wanna go - things I wanna do, that pretty much mandate turning myself in to a battery operated skydiver.
Wink


jumpinjackflsh  (B 27757)

Jan 10, 2013, 3:45 PM
Post #43 of 61 (756 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you sir,

Great answers. I know nothing about CReW other than the DZO's at Quantum were world class CreW dogs and I've seen it done a few times. Freaking amazing. My balls aren't that big.

Re "all on you" I agree as well. I take the privilege to jump very seriously, work my ep's religiously, do my checks, etc...

I will say, an RSL and AAD are definitely in my future as well however, I am admittedly happy with my current system.

Re collisions, I'd say that is probably the driving factor in what will push a Cypres back into my rig. I think the cost is phenomenal considering. Hopefully other players in the market, etc... will eventually bring the price down to reasonable. However, I've had one collision, jumping with someone that was completely out of control, came right down on top of me. I didn't grey out, but it was damn scary.

After that, I became very leery of what/who I jump with, etc...

All good inf, highly appreciated.


Jack


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 10, 2013, 4:18 PM
Post #44 of 61 (738 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The point that continues to amaaaze me is that the death caused by not pulling the reserve, after a sucsessfull cutaway release, is fact!!!

How is this for a vision,...your running up to your comrade, who is in a pile on the ground, dead as a doornail,...the cutaway handle is no where to be found,...

YOU GET THE PICTURE? This is the documented fact!!!

But all of the (disconnect the) RSL discussions are hypothetical???

Somebody help me here, I JUST DON'T get it????
Sure, it's a fact. That's why I use those things. But if I thought I HAD to have them, I wouldn't skydive. I've got a track record of being pretty competent.

But I've always said you can't see the future and you have to play the odds. The odds seem to favor the backup devices.

I know I may sound a little low key but I've already seen my share of fatalities. I don't need to "imagine" what it's like. My viewpoint comes from experience. Unsure


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 10, 2013, 5:43 PM
Post #45 of 61 (718 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I've got a track record of being pretty competent.

And he has the release from the shrink to prove it!



Still haven't heard from DvK...


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 10, 2013, 7:19 PM
Post #46 of 61 (700 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I've got a track record of being pretty competent.

And he has the release from the shrink to prove it!
3 out the 4 voices in my head say I'm perfectly sane. TongueLaugh

In reply to:
Still haven't heard from DvK...
I saw a few posts up that he's not a native English speaker. That could explain some of the intensity and syntax of his posts. Smile


chuteless  (D 41)

Jan 11, 2013, 8:37 AM
Post #47 of 61 (633 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe someone's feelings may get hurt, but this constant banter about a thousand things that only have initials ( like CTR, orr BNC, or AOD, or ....aw shucks, you get my meaning ) its awonder that anyone gets to jump because he/she has to spend an hour just figuring out what all those initials mean.

My goodness, , how this sport has changed in the past 50 years., and I dont say for the better.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 11, 2013, 9:48 AM
Post #48 of 61 (616 views)
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Re: [chuteless] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe someone's feelings may get hurt, but this constant banter about a thousand things that only have initials ( like CTR, orr BNC, or AOD, or ....aw shucks, you get my meaning ) its awonder that anyone gets to jump because he/she has to spend an hour just figuring out what all those initials mean.

My goodness, , how this sport has changed in the past 50 years., and I dont say for the better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1lQGXI_SN0

Only thing that's really changed Bill, is the cameras are smaller!
WinkSly


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 11, 2013, 10:13 AM
Post #49 of 61 (607 views)
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Re: [chuteless] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Maybe someone's feelings may get hurt, but this constant banter about a thousand things that only have initials ( like CTR, orr BNC, or AOD, or ....aw shucks, you get my meaning ) its a wonder that anyone gets to jump because he/she has to spend an hour just figuring out what all those initials mean.

My goodness, , how this sport has changed in the past 50 years., and I dont say for the better.

Yes I agree things have changed,...
However there are multitudes of individuals here on this forum, a way too large majority with, err, let's say made up names,

MANY of whom are students trying to learn or at least hash out things they little understand, or don't understand...I applaud their efforts, and you can either help them or not. Smile

On the other hand this sport has a resurgence of popularity at the moment, in a political climate that has the ability to shut us down without notice, and all taking place in an environment where insurance rates keep increasing as well as fuel prices!


The registered number of license holding individuals according To the USPA is around 32,000the number of tandem rides is at an all time high. (Those of you that might feel the need to correct my numbers feel free to do so.) These numbers compared with prior years and factoring the current incident rate indicates we are in fact; have changed for the better, unless of course you want to intentionally hurt yourself??? I suppose it all means, what you mean by Better.?

All things considering, we are doing very well,.. I see a forum where everyone is trying very hard to do the best they can do, to understand, to teach, and where else do you get to speak with the owners of the pioneers of the parachuting industry as a whole? Bill Booth, John Sherman, and many, many other fine people here at your beckon call.

I do understand your frustration, however, as do many,
C


YvonneWiggers  (B License)

Jan 11, 2013, 10:48 AM
Post #50 of 61 (597 views)
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Re: [JohnMitchell] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.
Okay, Pops and I want to know, what were these circumstances?

Was it just a total malfunction or something crazy?

I've jumped with and without AAD's, with and without RSL's. I prefer to have both. Smile

I guess I can answer for Daan as I saw it happen both times - don't do hop and pops with me in the plane on a day with pretty shitty weather, it's bad luck. The first was a pilotchute in tow, the pilotchute was fully cocked and standing like a drogue but the main was simply too big for the container (but it did leave after the reserve deployed). The second one was a hard pull due to the BOC-pocket being worn out. These two were both within the first month of him owning that rig by the way. The rigger who sold him the rig assured him the big main (which was a rental from him) was fine in that rig, and after he hard pull he mentioned 'well yeah, that BOC should've been replaced long ago'.

ETA: Both jumps were from around 3500 to 4000 ft, and both jumps he was under a nice and blue reserve above 2000 ft.


(This post was edited by YvonneWiggers on Jan 11, 2013, 10:51 AM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jan 11, 2013, 10:59 AM
Post #51 of 61 (707 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can think of at least 3 that an AAD did save their life and one for sure that an rsl did. One of the AAD saves an rsl would have done the trick.
I can also think of 3 fatalities that an AAD would have saved them but an rsl would not.
Also 3 that an rsl may have saved but an AAD not.
The largest number is by far the number of fatalities I can recall that either one would have done the trick.


DvK  (B License)

Jan 11, 2013, 11:01 AM
Post #52 of 61 (706 views)
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Re: [YvonneWiggers] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Also managed to successfully pull silver myself twice, where a RSL would have done nothing, so under the same circumstances, I'd be very likely to do it again.
Okay, Pops and I want to know, what were these circumstances?

Was it just a total malfunction or something crazy?

I've jumped with and without AAD's, with and without RSL's. I prefer to have both. Smile

I guess I can answer for Daan as I saw it happen both times - don't do hop and pops with me in the plane on a day with pretty shitty weather, it's bad luck. The first was a pilotchute in tow, the pilotchute was fully cocked and standing like a drogue but the main was simply too big for the container (but it did leave after the reserve deployed). The second one was a hard pull due to the BOC-pocket being worn out. These two were both within the first month of him owning that rig by the way. The rigger who sold him the rig assured him the big main (which was a rental from him) was fine in that rig, and after he hard pull he mentioned 'well yeah, that BOC should've been replaced long ago'.

ETA: Both jumps were from around 3500 to 4000 ft, and both jumps he was under a nice and blue reserve above 2000 ft.

Correct, was in the saddle well above said 2000 ft.
2 Reserve rides in 2 weeks...

Moral of the story: Don't do hop&pops with Yvonne in the same load, that girl brings bad luck (and yet I still do)Tongue

So no, there weren't bridles wrapped around my neck, nor were there d-bags bouncing aroundSly


JohnMitchell  (D 6462)

Jan 11, 2013, 12:39 PM
Post #53 of 61 (669 views)
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Re: [YvonneWiggers] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to you both for the clarification. Yes, sometimes you just have to pull the reserve. I've had a couple of totals myself. Smile

It looks like RSL's and AAD's save quite a few lives. A few unfortunate swoopers have been killed by AAD's firing at the worst possible moment, but for the average jumper, I think BOTH are good ideas.


chuteless  (D 41)

Jan 15, 2013, 7:41 AM
Post #54 of 61 (557 views)
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Re: [ChrisD] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Twardowski....the cameras have got smaller, but the chutes ( In my opinion ) have changed and not for the better. I prefer the Para-Commander and some of those slower forward speed canopies.

I think jumpers should be made to jump a few rounds and then they would know what jumping is about....

The Containers and harness have gone from good to terrible. The ripcord to the throw out pilot chute is really dumb.

The step in leg straps is the most stupid change, and certainly not for betterment in the sport. The quick ejector leg straps were much more convenient and easier to get into, and get out of once a person has landed.

However, as C has said, it must be frustrtaion with all this new stuff, and the constant bombarment of initials to make jumpers sound like they are talking in a hidden code.

I suggest that if this banter is done by students, they should seek out a good and competant instructor and get the lowdown on what all those initials mean.


(This post was edited by chuteless on Jan 15, 2013, 7:42 AM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:12 AM
Post #55 of 61 (539 views)
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Re: [chuteless] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
However, as C has said, it must be frustration with all this new stuff, and the constant bombardment of initials to make jumpers sound like they are talking in a hidden code.

I suggest that if this banter is done by students, they should seek out a good and competent instructor and get the lowdown on what all those initials mean.

http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/acron.htm


http://www.parametric.co.nz/skydive/skydivez.htm

Wink


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 15, 2013, 9:13 AM)


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:23 AM
Post #56 of 61 (532 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However, as C has said, it must be frustration with all this new stuff, and the constant bombardment of initials to make jumpers sound like they are talking in a hidden code.

I suggest that if this banter is done by students, they should seek out a good and competent instructor and get the lowdown on what all those initials mean.


http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/acron.htm


http://www.parametric.co.nz/skydive/skydivez.htm

Wink
I wish this web site/Forum had those little buttons somewhere so that we all could rate the usfullness/value/humor/etc,...

Cause that was a great contribution airtwardoSmile Angelic

Thanks!!!
C


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Jan 15, 2013, 9:26 AM
Post #57 of 61 (530 views)
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Re: [DvK] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The first was a pilotchute in tow, the pilotchute was fully cocked and standing like a drogue but the main was simply too big for the container (but it did leave after the reserve deployed).

After 200 jumps, has anyone suggested to you to punch out the container with your elbows on a stuck bag like that?


wildfan75  (D 29536)

Jan 21, 2013, 6:24 PM
Post #58 of 61 (460 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

Since I've been in the sport:

Number of people I know saved by their AAD: 1

Number of people potentially saved by having an RSL: 1

Number of people that would have lived, would still be to walk or walk unassisted, or would still be able to jump if they weren't trying to swoop: 6


TheCapt  (C 38102)

Feb 23, 2013, 3:39 PM
Post #59 of 61 (342 views)
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Re: [airdvr] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

That was an easy question. Answer has to be RSL. Everytime you deploy your main or your reserve you are doing something to save your life. RSL typically is engaged at altitudes higher than the AAD fires at. In fact, the RSL usually beats you to the punch when you grasp for the reserve handle after a cutaway.
So .. . . . . more people have been saved by an RSL than an AAD.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 23, 2013, 4:24 PM
Post #60 of 61 (327 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The first was a pilotchute in tow, the pilotchute was fully cocked and standing like a drogue but the main was simply too big for the container (but it did leave after the reserve deployed).

After 200 jumps, has anyone suggested to you to punch out the container with your elbows on a stuck bag like that?

Back before throw-outs, that was SOP for some guys after every pull. Wink


airtwardo  (D License)

Feb 23, 2013, 7:43 PM
Post #61 of 61 (288 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Which is more likely to save your life? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The first was a pilotchute in tow, the pilotchute was fully cocked and standing like a drogue but the main was simply too big for the container (but it did leave after the reserve deployed).

After 200 jumps, has anyone suggested to you to punch out the container with your elbows on a stuck bag like that?

Back before throw-outs, that was SOP for some guys after every pull. Wink


Yup...pull the ripcord until the rubber bands stopped it's travel, hook left thumb under left MLW & push out to bring the container into your back...yet at a caddywhompus enough angle that ya could start banging on it with the right elbow.

Easy enough!

For the reserve there was a 'Jesus Cord' that went from the top flap of the reserve to a carabiner on the MLW.

...pull the reserve ripcord (yeah rubber-bands too) then start yankin' on the 'Last Hope Rope' until ya got 6 or 8 inches of slack.

THEN start jammin' BOTH elbows into the container.

Hot dog pilot chute just made mine jam up even more, went back to the MA1.
Angelic


You kids today with yer RSL's & yer autermatuck openers...Crazy



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