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Double brake fire - what happens?

 

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Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:08 AM
Post #26 of 50 (1979 views)
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Re: [coticj] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

His hands were right there, could have pulled risers or grabbed toggles. I would like to see how long it would have took to calm down if he flared.


coticj  (D License)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:25 AM
Post #27 of 50 (1966 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was pulling on the risers, nothing happened, and as I didn't know what is wrong I decided to chop it. But I do know of a case on the same canopy when the guy flared and the canopy then started flying normally...


Anvilbrother  (C 39168)

Jan 13, 2013, 10:44 AM
Post #28 of 50 (1963 views)
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Re: [coticj] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sry in that video I never saw an attempt at a riser or toggle flare. My bad..


ChrisD  (No License)

Jan 13, 2013, 12:35 PM
Post #29 of 50 (1944 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Sry in that video I never saw an attempt at a riser or toggle flare. My bad..

From the students perspective, this is the Safety and Training forum Smile or perhaps better said advice to an pre-A or anyone who is too low, (now here is a real conundrum) This canopy was neither "Stable, Steerable, or Square (Shape)!" So the chop is warrented and is a really good thing. The SIM mentions "pulling the toggels down" for a collapsed end cell at Cat B, but that's the last of the "Ram Air Recovery Position," in the SIM. Is this another "Hard" decision? I envision on one hand individuals playing with their canopies at just below the AAD activation speed and playing with it all the way to the ground. On the other hand, well what exactly is the other hand?

Great job in the vid BTW!!
C


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Jan 14, 2013, 1:03 AM
Post #30 of 50 (1908 views)
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Re: [coticj] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

I got about this with Cobalt135 when brakes were not set.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 14, 2013, 3:45 AM
Post #31 of 50 (1886 views)
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Re: [Anvilbrother] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
His hands were right there, could have pulled risers or grabbed toggles. I would like to see how long it would have took to calm down if he flared.

While this might be true, and a controlability check does include a left turn/right turn/flare, it's a little different when you have a small, high performance canopy that is not behaving.

Could you mess with it and see what happens? Sure, but you could also be losing altitude at an alarming rate and getting tossed around like a rag doll.

Part of jumping a high performance canopy 'should' be a higher degree of reliability in terms of packing, equipment maintenance, and body positioning on opening. All of these will reduce the odds of a malfunction, but when one does happen, sometimes the 'procedures' have to be a little different than on a more docile canopy.


tan  (A 64618)

Jan 28, 2013, 10:47 PM
Post #32 of 50 (1782 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks John! I've been wondering about that for the longest time, and no one has been able to give me a good answer on "why we need to stow our brakes during packing". The previous answers were usually about hard openings or etc..

Just for technicality though, does setting the brakes help with cell inflation by pulling the top skin back to open the nose, or by changing the effective angle of attack of the wing, thereby preventing the canopy from flying forward too much and closing the nose with the top skin?

That also brings another incident to mind.. I was visiting a DZ and jumping a rental Test-235 (could never figure out which manufacturer made a series named "Test" either..), and that particular canopy had horribly long snivels (softest openings ever though..). 7 seconds of snivel on the first 2 jumps, 11 seconds on the third. Was only in the saddle at 1,700 on that third jump; really should have stayed more altitude aware, and chopped it by 2k.

Thing is, I know it wasn't brake fire coz I always set my own brakes immediately after landing, and I know it wasn't the packer coz I had the same guy for the next 10+ jumps (on a different rig of course), and it was a high speed streamer, so it didn't look like a slider lock either. But it did look a lot like the video posted by coticj, so all things considered, are there any other factors which could cause such a reluctance towards canopy cell inflation?

Thanks again!


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Jan 29, 2013, 8:22 AM
Post #33 of 50 (1701 views)
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Re: [tan] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
does setting the brakes help with cell inflation by pulling the top skin back to open the nose, or by changing the effective angle of attack of the wing, thereby preventing the canopy from flying forward too much and closing the nose with the top skin?

Kinda - Sort of. Yes, it does. More importantly it applies big brakes by pulling down the tail which prevents the canopy from surging forward. When the Strato Star first came out it had ropes and rings reefing. This was a system where the outside edge had rings attached with a draw string running through it which was attached to the pilot chute. The pilot chute drag worked the draw string like a pack of tobaco. This system did not require brakes as the draw string held the tail down. We renamed the brakes to "Surge Inhibitors" and continued to use them as we were doing 10 way and we wanted to open without surging into each other.

When I designed the Firebolt we found that because of the unique planform we had "end cell closure " on the center cells even with brakes set. We then tried to brake the center cells. It worked but the opening were to prompt with that configuration. We found a better solution with the double brake lines which you see today.

BTW: Just because you set the brakes doesn't mean they didn't fail. There are toggles out there which will self release from the inertia of lifting the risers out of the pack.


CReW  (D License)

Jan 31, 2013, 11:27 PM
Post #34 of 50 (1526 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

I never understood why everybody doesn't jump Racer Risers with Snap toggles. Totally eliminate the worry of premature break release. I jump them on all my rigs, Javelin, Wings, Racers. I made 60 jumps in a row without setting my brakes, no problem. A little slower than normal but very orderly. I don't recommend that but have considered it with my Firebolt.


(This post was edited by CReW on Jan 31, 2013, 11:41 PM)
Attachments: snap_toggle.jpg (9.67 KB)


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Feb 1, 2013, 3:41 PM
Post #35 of 50 (1407 views)
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Re: [CReW] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree on the Racer risers. They are bulletproof. I experimented 10 or so years ago with not setting the brakes on my CRW canopy to see if it opened softer. Despite being a tail-pocket canopy, the openings were slow with line twists every time. I got tired of kicking and went back to stowing my brakes.

As far as Firebolts - they open s slow I wouldn't want to slow them down anymore!!!!


CReW  (D License)

Feb 1, 2013, 6:29 PM
Post #36 of 50 (1391 views)
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Re: [faulknerwn] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

The takeaway here is, if you never want to worry again about you're brakes firing when you don't want them to, get yourself some Racer Risers with Snap Toggles. Whenever I get a new rig the first thing I do is order a set. If you've never used them you don't know what you're missing.
See Ya Soon Win.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 2, 2013, 3:36 AM
Post #37 of 50 (1357 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

How big is the hole that has to be made for the snap?


Deyan  (D 322)

Feb 2, 2013, 5:34 AM
Post #38 of 50 (1347 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How big is the hole that has to be made for the snap?

I don't know about the Jump Shack risers, but on the PdF risers with snaps there's no hole on the Ty 17 webbing. The snap is placed on Ty 3 tape and the tape is sewn on the riser.

One more thing. If you want to place the snap on the Ty 17 webbing, you don't have to punch a hole. You can work your way through the webbing without any damage.


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Feb 2, 2013, 7:29 AM
Post #39 of 50 (1335 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
How big is the hole that has to be made for the snap?

No hole. The snap is attached via an appliqued tab like Deyan says. This tab keeps the release pull direction to straight down.


IanHarrop  (C 1152)

Feb 2, 2013, 7:34 AM
Post #40 of 50 (1334 views)
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Re: [JohnSherman] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

cool... I checked the Jumpshack site and I could find pics of the toggles, but I couldn't find pics of the risers.

Would love to see pics. I think this is a great idea and I'd love to learn more


CReW  (D License)

Feb 4, 2013, 10:31 PM
Post #41 of 50 (1195 views)
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Re: [IanHarrop] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

But not a new idea, I've been jumping them for give or take 20 years. OK Ian, It was just a matter of remembering where I put the picture.
Racer Risers 3.0
Attachments: Racer Risers.jpg (55.8 KB)


RMURRAY

Feb 9, 2013, 8:41 AM
Post #42 of 50 (1104 views)
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Re: [CReW] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

the racer snap toggles are bulletproof. I pack lots of other peoples rigs and can see why some have toggles issues....totally preventable.


uberchris  (A License)

Feb 9, 2013, 9:50 AM
Post #43 of 50 (1087 views)
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Re: [CReW] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But not a new idea, I've been jumping them for give or take 20 years. OK Ian, It was just a matter of remembering where I put the picture.
Racer Risers 3.0

i LOVE this. here i have been brainstorming ideas while reading this whole discussion for a toggle/riser with a snap or even thinking about routing some yellow cutaway cable through the top and bottom of the toggle keepers (just a stupid idea) and these risers are available.

SOLD, im ordering a set right now for my new container. thanks everyone for the useful information on this whole thread, i always bring these things up to friends at my DZ after reading because everyone gives their own input and thats how us newbs learn stuff


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 9, 2013, 10:04 AM
Post #44 of 50 (1082 views)
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Re: [uberchris] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
But not a new idea, I've been jumping them for give or take 20 years. OK Ian, It was just a matter of remembering where I put the picture.
Racer Risers 3.0

i LOVE this. here i have been brainstorming ideas while reading this whole discussion for a toggle/riser with a snap or even thinking about routing some yellow cutaway cable through the top and bottom of the toggle keepers (just a stupid idea) and these risers are available.

SOLD, im ordering a set right now for my new container. thanks everyone for the useful information on this whole thread, i always bring these things up to friends at my DZ after reading because everyone gives their own input and thats how us newbs learn stuff

I think 3M Dual Lock would be another alternative. Both sides of it are identical and are a "mushroom cap" type of shape that will not snag spectra lines. It is very durable and doesn't take much at all to be secure. Some versions of it should allow sewing through it.
Attachments: 3m-duallock-dual-lock.jpg (95.1 KB)


CReW  (D License)

Feb 9, 2013, 11:26 PM
Post #45 of 50 (1019 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

New kind of Velcro? I hadn't seen that. Wouldn't want it on my risers but bet I could find a use for it.


sundevil777  (D License)

Feb 10, 2013, 12:52 AM
Post #46 of 50 (1006 views)
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Re: [CReW] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why wouldn't you want it on your riser?


FastRon

Feb 10, 2013, 3:27 AM
Post #47 of 50 (985 views)
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Re: [CReW] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

We use dual lock on water ski bindings. Comes in two 'strengths; 250 and 400. Has a LOT of holding power. It does not snag or grab at various materials like the hook portion of Velcro does. It also doesn't 'fuzz' like Velcro. It has a somewhat limited service life... We replace it after about 5 separations of bindings from the ski.


uberchris  (A License)

Feb 11, 2013, 1:45 PM
Post #48 of 50 (863 views)
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Re: [FastRon] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

we use it at work for all types of purposes. its not sharp at all, but its got excellent holding power.


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 11, 2013, 2:45 PM
Post #49 of 50 (851 views)
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Re: [FastRon] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
We use dual lock on water ski bindings. Comes in two 'strengths; 250 and 400. Has a LOT of holding power. It does not snag or grab at various materials like the hook portion of Velcro does. It also doesn't 'fuzz' like Velcro. It has a somewhat limited service life... We replace it after about 5 separations of bindings from the ski.

Great; that would get me about 90 minutes on the slope. Crazy


JohnSherman  (D 2105)

Feb 11, 2013, 9:57 PM
Post #50 of 50 (829 views)
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Re: [sundevil777] Double brake fire - what happens? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think 3M Dual Lock would be another alternative. Both sides of it are identical and are a "mushroom cap" type of shape that will not snag spectra lines.

We were introduced to 3M Dual Lock about 35 years ago when I worked for Chrysler. We used it to hold on door trim panels. To stiff for toggles or to sew. Glue on mostly. We tried to find an application in parachuting for it but no luck.


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