Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Katana 120.... Next step?

 


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 11:53 AM
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Katana 120.... Next step? Can't Post

I am getting to the point where I want more speed from my canopy and wanted to get some opinions on what should be my next step.

I am currently loading my KA120 at a shade under 1.7 and doing 180s (pretty much nailed them) and 270s (still needs work on consistency). I don't do anything other than canopy work (no work jumps etc so that's not a consideration).

PD recommend a VE103 as the recovery arc/ sight picture is apparently similar, and I like the idea of having a little more bottom end flare. However I wondered if at that WL (about 1.9) I might better with a KA107 until I can get to the VE96.

I will make this move when my 270s are consistent, not before, so really just looking for answers on a 1.9 loading on a VE103 vs a KA107.

Thanks.


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 1:03 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanna see what your swoops look like. Post a video.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 1:16 PM
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Re: [SRI85] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have any, and anyway I am not asking for opinions on my swoops. I want to know what the best next step is given the parameters I have listed.

If/when I want canopy coaching I'll go to Alter Ego or Flight-1.


(This post was edited by DocPop on Jan 2, 2013, 1:18 PM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 2, 2013, 1:19 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
PD recommend a VE103 as the recovery arc/ sight picture is apparently similar, and I like the idea of having a little more bottom end flare. However I wondered if at that WL (about 1.9) I might better with a KA107 until I can get to the VE96.

My experience is different, I didn't go to anything near as aggressive till substantially higher jump numbers, but I would agree with PD. I think that at the given wing loadings, the velocity is a substantially better flying parachute in all manners of flight except opening.

If PD recommended the Velo, what makes you want to question that?


(This post was edited by Fast on Jan 2, 2013, 1:19 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 1:23 PM
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Re: [Fast] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

If PD recommended the Velo, what makes you want to question that?

That's a fair question. I've been reading on here and some people have voiced the opinion that under 2.0 a Velocity is a waste of money.

Just casting my net a little wider for information, but you're right, I put a lot of weight behind PD's advice.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:20 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
270s (still needs work on consistency).

Are you the master of your current canopy or do you think there might be some things to work on before moving on to a more powerful wing?


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 3:27 PM
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Re: [AggieDave] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

No, not mastered it 100%, I want more speed. Hence..

Quote:
I will make this move when my 270s are consistent, not before,


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2013, 4:37 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure how many jumps you've done this year, but my thoughts are that you should stick under your current wing and do another couple hundred jumps on it. Take the opportunity to focus on your technique under the wing you feel comfortable with (a KA 120 is plenty speedy Smile) and it'll serve you well when you move to the VE 103. Personally I'd put a few jumps on a 107 KA before jumping the VE just to keep the variables as low as possible.

Blues,
Ian


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 5:03 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you, Ian.

Maybe I'll spend this year's canopy money on coaching to nail those elusive 270s....Smile

I believe that the techniques I learn on the KA will transfer well to the Velo when the time comes?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Jan 2, 2013, 6:20 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not sure how many jumps you've done this year, but my thoughts are that you should stick under your current wing and do another couple hundred jumps on it. Take the opportunity to focus on your technique under the wing you feel comfortable with (a KA 120 is plenty speedy Smile) and it'll serve you well when you move to the VE 103. Personally I'd put a few jumps on a 107 KA before jumping the VE just to keep the variables as low as possible.

Blues,
Ian

Listen to Ian.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jan 2, 2013, 7:30 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thank you, Ian.

Maybe I'll spend this year's canopy money on coaching to nail those elusive 270s....Smile

I believe that the techniques I learn on the KA will transfer well to the Velo when the time comes?

Pleasure.

Personally I think the money will be way better spent getting coaching. It's learn good habits than to go back and fix old/bad ones Smile

As far as the skills transitioning well.....Definitely. The KA->Velo transition is pretty 'natural' as long as too big of a jump isn't made.

Blues!
Ian


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:10 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am getting to the point where I want more speed from my canopy and wanted to get some opinions on what should be my next step.

Put 600 jumps on your current canopy and learn how to really fly it.

Stretching your turn out over more altitude will give you longer to accelerate for more speed and coaching will help.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jan 2, 2013, 8:13 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:49 PM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks again.

You always make a bunch of sense. I'd like to try to get to one of your courses if things work out.

As tempting as it is to buy a faster wing, I guess being a better pilot is a much more desirable state which will transfer to any wing. I just need to control the "instant gratification" part of my brain!


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 2, 2013, 8:52 PM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Stretching your turn out over more altitude will give you longer to accelerate for more speed and coaching will help.

I try to do this. I am using 700' as my IP altitude for my 270. How does this sound for a 1.7 WL Katana? (@ 750' MSL)

I struggle to keep it in the dive the whole time, but I know it's possible so the times when it doesn't work must be down to bad technique. That's what I mean by poor consistency on my part.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 3, 2013, 3:14 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

If your jump number is accurate, at 600 jumps. I'd say do another lineset on ka 120 and move to velo 96 or 90.

Consistant 270 and learning how to do blindman, and switchblade, ect. ie freestyle move is much easier to learn with mellow canopy vs trying to learn how to do it on a crossbraced.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Jan 3, 2013, 3:16 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 3, 2013, 8:10 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks - I hadn't even considered the freestyle moves.

I have not ventured anywhere near them (apart from an enforced "switchblade" due to a dislocated shoulder!!).


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 3, 2013, 8:52 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, couple of my friends started freestyle moves with crossfire and katana, way before they started to jump x-braced canopy. Once they moved to vx and velos. they found it much eaiser to do freestyle moves.

They started freestyle simply the same reason, they had about 500 jumps, they wanted to fly x-braced but so many people gave them shit about it. So they just simply turned things around on landing.

People had bounce bingo going on with this two, but they never bounced, and hopefully never will.

Some can downsize super quick and yet be perfectly fine, if others give you shit about what you fly, simply turn that shit all the way around, stand up, and give them a middle finger.

After doing this for a while, the haters came up with the new rule of "the harness has to be facing same direction and lines can not be twisted while work jump landing."
CrazyCrazyCrazy

So they started their journey on ghost rider and switchblades, which I think they are more dangerous than blindman or miracle man.


(This post was edited by stayhigh on Jan 3, 2013, 9:45 AM)


SRI85  (D License)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:29 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Stretching your turn out over more altitude will give you longer to accelerate for more speed and coaching will help.

I try to do this. I am using 700' as my IP altitude for my 270. How does this sound for a 1.7 WL Katana? (@ 750' MSL)

I struggle to keep it in the dive the whole time, but I know it's possible so the times when it doesn't work must be down to bad technique. That's what I mean by poor consistency on my part.

I think 700 is a little low. I think 820ft is closer to what it should be for 1.7 At 1.9 I start at 890.


stayhigh  (F 111)

Jan 3, 2013, 9:42 AM
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Re: [SRI85] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

IP may very, due to turn rate, air density, how much fronts are you pulling.

Telling someone to turn higher and not seeing how they land is typically wrong answer.

Almost 900 ft for a 270 on a katana sounds little too much, but than again, I haven't seen you landing this thing yet, so I'll shut up.

Katana does dive hard tho. I feel like I turn my 120 almsot same height as my velo 96.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Jan 3, 2013, 10:02 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I try to do this. I am using 700' as my IP altitude for my 270. How does this sound for a 1.7 WL Katana? (@ 750' MSL)

It's so dependent on so many things I really don't believe anyone can answer the "is this the right altitude" question (online)

Instead I'd say you should start as high as you possibly can while making sure the turn is slow enough to not be rushed, but accelerating fast enough in rotation rate to ensure airspeed continues to build.

My motto "Start the turn as high as I possibly can" Smile

Lets get some coaching scheduled brotha!

Ian


(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Jan 3, 2013, 10:02 AM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Re: [stayhigh] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After doing this for a while, the haters came up with the new rule of "the harness has to be facing same direction and lines can not be twisted while work jump landing."
CrazyCrazyCrazy

That sounds like pure jealousy!


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:43 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My motto "Start the turn as high as I possibly can" Smile

That's what I have been striving for.

In reply to:
Lets get some coaching scheduled brotha!

Ian

Yep, coaching is what's needed here.

Thanks to all for keeping this thread constructive.


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 3, 2013, 10:59 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
After doing this for a while, the haters came up with the new rule of "the harness has to be facing same direction and lines can not be twisted while work jump landing."
CrazyCrazyCrazy

That sounds like pure jealousy!

That's likely, but it's also possible there are corporate liability issues for the DZO. To me, the issue would seem better solved by just not employing people who push the boundary lines while working. I dunno - people have a lot of reasons for doing the things they do.

I've been told straight up that I'm a hater and to stop hating because I was honest with someone that I thought was in over their head. I personally don't have any jealousy issues going on, cause I only swoop for fun. I just don't like seeing / dealing with injured people. It's hard for people to understand that though.


(This post was edited by Fast on Jan 3, 2013, 11:01 AM)


Jiggs  (F 745)

Jan 7, 2013, 4:05 PM
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Re: [SRI85] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I think 700 is a little low. I think 820ft is closer to what it should be for 1.7 At 1.9 I start at 890.

Really! LOL you must be jumping at a high altitude or I would also think that you have an incredibly long rotation or too long double fronts.

Back on topic;

You would be far better to stay on current canopy and learn to get 270s consistently. Much better for progression in the long run. Or you can downsize and get only moderate performance on it.

120 size is probably on of the best sizes, large enough to have range, but fun enough to get some awesome performance. You can do very large/powerful turns with this size wing. Learn to fly it well and you will be able to generate good power - it will also have the added benefit that you will be able to move much faster through sizes later if you spend the time learning and consolidating on this wing.

This is probably the most important time for you - invest in it now (time, coaching and jumps) and save yourself a ton of time, $$$ and trouble later. You will be a much better canopy pilot because of it.

EDIT TO ADD:

Just realised I did not answer the original question!:

After you were ready to downsize (after nailing the 120) I would think the 107 would be the way to go. If you really learned to fly the 120 very well the skills would transfer quickly. You could put sometime on this and then move to a 96 velocity.

I think the key thing is learning about the sight picture, being able to see/predict the corner/recovery arc and be able to fly well/consistently in all sorts of conditions. In order to do this well it takes time and a lot of jumps. (in my case it took me more than 300 jumps to start to do an ok 450)

Getting a smaller canopy does not help you do this. It does make us feel great because the canopy is faster while we are slightly worse off.

Anyway it is all dependent on you, your training/coaching plan and your attitude, etc. Get a good coach and consistently get coaching and go from there.


(This post was edited by Jiggs on Jan 7, 2013, 4:20 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 8, 2013, 7:05 AM
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Re: [Jiggs] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, mate.

The plan is to stick with this wing for some time now and get coaching.

I am itching to jump Velo, and I may well borrow one for a couple of jumps to scratch that itch, but in terms of long term gain it seems that building up my consistency on the 120 is going to be my best investment.

I started jumping Katanas at 150 jumps and have had a downsize in the middle there, so there is plenty more I can do.


sparkie  (D License)

Jan 8, 2013, 8:39 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I am getting to the point where I want more speed from my canopy and wanted to get some opinions on what should be my next step.

I am currently loading my KA120 at a shade under 1.7 and doing 180s (pretty much nailed them) and 270s (still needs work on consistency). I don't do anything other than canopy work (no work jumps etc so that's not a consideration).

PD recommend a VE103 as the recovery arc/ sight picture is apparently similar, and I like the idea of having a little more bottom end flare. However I wondered if at that WL (about 1.9) I might better with a KA107 until I can get to the VE96.

I will make this move when my 270s are consistent, not before, so really just looking for answers on a 1.9 loading on a VE103 vs a KA107.

Thanks.

Velo, better openings. Katana opens okay usually, but my experience is that when it turns on opening it tends to be snappy. Front riser pressure on the velo is much higher than the katana though.

Maybe better though to put some more on your current katana and do larger rotations, 270's for instance (i never liked the 180 safety wise) That way you get more speed on a canopy thats familiar.

Then after, go to a velo wl ~2,5 in stages.

fyi, in my country (netherlands) one must have 1000 jumps to go on a velo and 700 to go to a katana. While i felt that the 700 for the katana was a bit rich by 100 jumps, i didnt feel ready for a velo or comparable canopy till just around 1000 jumps. But i started to seriously focus on canopy flying only around 300-400 jumps or so. Then i started doing almost exclusively hop and pops to focus on swooping.

Take care.

And yes the velo (as are lost of other cb's) is nice, im guessing if you try it to take care of the itch as you say, you will not want to jump non crossbraced after ;)


(This post was edited by sparkie on Jan 8, 2013, 8:48 AM)


Fast  (D 28237)

Jan 8, 2013, 9:57 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks, mate.

The plan is to stick with this wing for some time now and get coaching.

I am itching to jump Velo, and I may well borrow one for a couple of jumps to scratch that itch, but in terms of long term gain it seems that building up my consistency on the 120 is going to be my best investment.

I started jumping Katanas at 150 jumps and have had a downsize in the middle there, so there is plenty more I can do.

My personal opinion is that borrowing one to "scratch the itch" isn't going to help you that much. The canopies fly different. Someone I know who was going back and forth some between a velo and a katana just got messed up pretty good. He was complicating things with different canopies/risers/rigs and still trying to learn to do stuff.

I dunno, just my opinion.


RichLees

Jan 8, 2013, 1:31 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
"I am itching to jump Velo, and I may well borrow one for a couple of jumps to scratch that itch"

I bought one because it was cheap and, like you, I wanted to scratch the itch ... 20 jumps later, I knew I could never go back to the Katana and promptly sold it so I could get a newer Velo Wink


(This post was edited by RichLees on Jan 8, 2013, 1:32 PM)


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 8, 2013, 4:54 PM
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Re: [RichLees] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

I bought one because it was cheap and, like you, I wanted to scratch the itch ... 20 jumps later, I knew I could never go back to the Katana and promptly sold it so I could get a newer Velo Wink

To you and the others who pointed out the same thing. I guess that is the risk. I actually know someone who just had the exact same experience as you - got a good deal and said it was going in the basement for another season or so and 2 weeks later was selling his Katana!

Looks like it could be an itchy season! Wink


matt002

Jan 9, 2013, 12:13 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

I would get a second hand katana 107, and then get your first velo in a 96.
The 103 is a big wing to try and throw around if your light, it's better suited for very heavy pilots. Lightly loaded, the openings are all over the place.


DocPop  (C License)

Jan 9, 2013, 7:36 AM
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Re: [matt002] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I would get a second hand katana 107, and then get your first velo in a 96.
The 103 is a big wing to try and throw around if your light, it's better suited for very heavy pilots. Lightly loaded, the openings are all over the place.

That seems to be a common theme. Thanks.






Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Jan 9, 2013, 6:25 PM
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Re: [Mr_Polite] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Lets try and keep it constructive.


aaroncosbey  (D 108444)

Jan 10, 2013, 1:22 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

I went from a NEOS119 to a VE103 @ 2.1 and it was a perfect transition...

Im putting the 103 up for sale soon Wink


matt002

Jan 10, 2013, 5:12 AM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, the best velo wingload/wing size combination was 2.2 on a VE96, best compromise of openings, speed, harness sensitivity,glide, and low end lift in zone acc. I found the 103 slow to react to harness input, longer snivel with more 'searching' and preferred the recovery of smaller velocities.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 29, 2013, 5:46 PM
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Re: Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

To update this thread:

I bought a VE103 a couple of weeks ago and have been really enjoying it.

It wasn't what I had been expecting. It doesn't feel more of a handful than the KA120, if anything it feels more reliable.

I feel my turns have improved on this wing. I can start higher and keep it diving better than the KA, but when it comes time to assist the recovery arc it has so much more power on the rears than the Katana. After transitioning off the rears it keeps on going on the brakes and then shuts down really well.

I think I trust this wing more than the Katana. The response to both normal rear riser input and to emergency dive-arrest drills is so solid. I hate being low, but I feel like the VE gives me more confidence to really fly the wing to the ground knowing that the rears are so strong.

I'm only loading it at 1.9 and these are very much first impressions, but I think if someone is proficient on a KA then a correctly sized Velo is a good next transition.

It feels like a KA but with tightened up controls.


Bufobufo  (D License)

Aug 29, 2013, 11:39 PM
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

That might be the best description I've read in a long time regarding transitioning to the velocity, it tells exactly what I felt when I was given the opportunity to try one.

I'm still in love with my KA135 and since I'm not into swooping I'll stick to this wing. Though.. I miss that bottom end the velo had and kinda regret ever trying one since now I know what I'm missing out on :P

Been following this thread and I'm glad u decided to try the x-braced approach and share your thoughts here. Thumbs up!


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 30, 2013, 6:35 AM
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Re: [Bufobufo] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks man.

I looked for a long time for some kind of description of what to expect when going to a "scary x-brace" and didn't find much. What I wrote is, of course, just my own opinion, but I hope it will give people about to make the change some idea of what to expect.

If you're heads up and in total control of your Katana, the right sized Velo shouldn't be a difficult move.

BTW, the "right" sizes are as follows from what I can gather:

Katana 120 --> Velo 103
Katana 107 --> Velo 96

I'm glad I didn't buy the KA107 as I had once planned, although I might have jumped one a few times if one had been available on my DZ.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Aug 30, 2013, 7:01 AM
Post #40 of 44 (1311 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I'm glad I didn't buy the KA107 as I had once planned, although I might have jumped one a few times if one had been available on my DZ.

I loved the KA 107 at 1.7-1.8.

Just saying.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 30, 2013, 7:34 AM
Post #41 of 44 (1295 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
Quote:
I'm glad I didn't buy the KA107 as I had once planned, although I might have jumped one a few times if one had been available on my DZ.

I loved the KA 107 at 1.7-1.8.

Just saying.

That's about where I would have been with a 107.

Question: if the KA107 translates to a VE96, does that mean that for a given jumper the KA107 is more aggressive than a VE103?


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
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Aug 30, 2013, 7:42 AM
Post #42 of 44 (1290 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If the KA107 translates to a VE96,

I wouldn't make those comparisons, honestly. Such different animals.

I find the VE96 a chore at my loading, and far preferred the 90 at that time.


DocPop  (C License)

Aug 30, 2013, 8:17 AM
Post #43 of 44 (1268 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

ianmdrennan wrote:
Quote:
If the KA107 translates to a VE96,

I wouldn't make those comparisons, honestly. Such different animals.

I find the VE96 a chore at my loading, and far preferred the 90 at that time.

Thanks.

The above was going from what the PD Tour guys told me about the sensible way to move from a KA to a VE.

Good luck tomorrow!


Fast  (D 28237)

Sep 3, 2013, 10:20 AM
Post #44 of 44 (993 views)
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Re: [DocPop] Katana 120.... Next step? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think your summary is pretty reasonable.

I personally don't like the KA much at high wingloadings. I feel like it has all the "go fast" features of a velocity and none of the solidity and recovery features. It does open nice though. I think it's a good canopy at wingloadings that are less than I would want to be jumping a velocity at though.

Just my $0.02



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